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Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
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Author:  Maverick00053 [ Sun, Mar 27 2016, 4:10 AM ]
Post subject:  Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
Hello all,

Epic Mummy Dust summons (And others below) are all getting a revamp that will be going in here shortly. I am going to summarize the changes briefly below. Once they go live I want you all to play around and give some feed back.

The EMD summons are designed to be varied and unique in their specialties. These changes do not grant you a right to a EMD summon change but you are welcome to request one through the forums like normal.

EMD


    • Construct: Geared Guardian (Epic Transmutation extends)

    - Regeneration on Geared Guardian was halved.
    - Power Attack was removed.
    - AB was reduced to compensate for removal of power attack. Net positive of AB without PA active.


    • Elemental: Ancient Air Elemental (Epic Evocation extends)

    - Completely untouched. We felt the Air Elemental excelled at its job of being a tank with a slight variance of abilities vs the Geared Guardian. On top of that it isn't nearly as powerful as the Geared Guardian.


    • Magical Beast: Sirrush (Epic Conjuration extends)

    - Called shot and Power Attack removed.


    • Undead: Pharaoh Sentinel (Epic Necromancy extends)

    - The Undead EMD was built to be a bruiser jack-of-all trades summon. Vamp Regeneration has been added and AB increased to achieve this.


    • Outsider: Alignment dependant (Epic Conjuration extends)

    • Good: Arcadian Avenger

    - Removed Turn Undead.
    - Gave it Concentration so it doesn't insta fail heal.
    - Now uses a shortsword offhand (More AB).
    - Increased HP to match Evil Outsider.
    - Halved DR.

    • Neutral: Githzerai Savant

    - Damaged increased significantly.
    - Power Attack removed and IKD granted.
    - The Githzerai was designed to be an anti mage tank and as a result its SR has increased.

    • Evil: Corruptor of Fate

    - Odd ball vulns removed.
    - Now uses handaxe offhand (More AB)


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Other Summons


    • Black Blade of Disaster
    - Removed WM Crit feat.


    • Winterwight
    - Given an extra APR

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Gate

The entire line of summons was balanced, redesigned, and modified to remove any previous clear 'better' summon. They will all have similiar performance no matter what your alignment is while still retaining racial flares and unique abilities.

Notes
Yagnoloth switched with the Ultraloth. The Ultraloth was renamed to Ultroloth (Spelling error). The Yagnoloth now isn't naked.

    • CL 17 – 21 :

    • Good: Throne Archon
    • Neutral: Gray Slaad
    • Evil: Glabrezu Infiltrator [Chaotic]
    • Evil: Nycaloth [Neutral]
    • Evil: Lesser Cornugon [Lawful]


    • CL 22 – 26 :

    • Good: Warden Archon
    • Neutral: Death Slaad
    • Evil: Glabrezu Beguiler [Chaotic]
    • Evil: Ultraloth [Neutral] • Evil: Yagnoloth [Neutral]
    • Evil: Cornugon Soldier [Lawful]


    • CL 27+ :

    • Good: Trumpet Archon
    • Neutral: White Slaad
    • Evil: Glabrezu Corruptor [Chaotic]
    • Evil: Yagnoloth [Neutral] • Evil: Ultroloth [Neutral]
    • Evil: Cornugon Veteran [Lawful]
Author:  Commie [ Sun, Mar 27 2016, 6:26 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: EMD Changes - Update/Feedback
Digging the new monk summon.

These changes are great!
Author:  Dunecat [ Sun, Mar 27 2016, 6:33 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: EMD Changes - Update/Feedback
Any chance of updates / new summons for other spell schools?
Author:  Commie [ Sun, Mar 27 2016, 6:54 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: EMD Changes - Update/Feedback
Dunecat wrote:
Any chance of updates / new summons for other spell schools?


Think the idea is to cast the biggest net and update/fix the content that's available to the most people before working to the things that have far less users.

Also mega ultra huge shoutout to Maverick. Just the other day I was bemoaning how bad the monk was and now holy shit the whole feat was re-worked with improvements all across the board.

Mega props, mega props. You do good work.
Author:  Naivatkal [ Sun, Mar 27 2016, 13:56 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: EMD Changes - Update/Feedback
Commie is right, we've started with EMD and will be looking at other summons as well.

And yeah, I am very glad we updated the monk. It's not worthless anymore!
Author:  The1Kobra [ Sun, Mar 27 2016, 13:57 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: EMD Changes - Update/Feedback
I haven't noticed any changes on the undead. Are you sure it was updated? Not that I think it really needed a buff, tbh.
Author:  Terallis [ Sun, Mar 27 2016, 14:59 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: EMD Changes - Update/Feedback
The1Kobra wrote:
I haven't noticed any changes on the undead. Are you sure it was updated? Not that I think it really needed a buff, tbh.


It's not in just yet, as far as I can tell. Maverick mentioned it'll be going in soon, in his post. :)
Author:  Commie [ Sun, Mar 27 2016, 16:28 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: EMD Changes - Update/Feedback
The1Kobra wrote:
I haven't noticed any changes on the undead. Are you sure it was updated? Not that I think it really needed a buff, tbh.


Monk change is in at least.
Author:  Maverick00053 [ Sun, Mar 27 2016, 16:35 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: EMD Changes - Update/Feedback
All have been updated as of right now.
Author:  Maverick00053 [ Sun, Mar 27 2016, 19:17 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
WW and BBoD will be getting updated shortly. Notes above.
Author:  Commie [ Sun, Mar 27 2016, 19:32 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
Bbod noooo you were so good to me!

Seriously though that thing was op as hell. Is it just 18-20 x 2 now?
Author:  Nalkanar [ Sun, Mar 27 2016, 19:37 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
I've read in the forum and was told in game that the elemental is very very bad, yet you say that it works and will remain the same. Is there something special that people dont get, or where is the problem?
Author:  TormakSaber [ Sun, Mar 27 2016, 19:44 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
It should be utilizing an Aura of Stunning it has available to it. That's immensely powerful.
Author:  Maverick00053 [ Sun, Mar 27 2016, 19:57 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
The Elemental also excels as a tank and in combination with the aura it is quite powerful.
Author:  PuresoulX2 [ Mon, Mar 28 2016, 1:38 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
What about the respose domain summons? It has a power attack which makes it miss all the time.. I also don't like the con cant be buffed but its mostly that power attack.

Edit: Actually the final form (27) is odd. It has a greatsword which is not the most effective weapon against undead, a heavy flail/hammer would be better I think, and it has overwhelming crit which is useless against undead. It also has very low AC at 36 but 50 percent concealment? which is cut in half by blind fight. You can buff the AC up to 46 (50 with haste). So many trade offs..
Author:  Commie [ Mon, Mar 28 2016, 2:06 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
50% concealment and 50 ac is fuckin amazing. a tumble tank in +4 gear is 50.

whats exactly the trade off here exactly?
Author:  TormakSaber [ Mon, Mar 28 2016, 2:09 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
PuresoulX2 wrote:
What about the respose domain summons? It has a power attack which makes it miss all the time.. I also don't like the con cant be buffed but its mostly that power attack.

Edit: Actually the final form (27) is odd. It has a greatsword which is not the most effective weapon against undead, a heavy flail/hammer would be better I think, and it has overwhelming crit which is useless against undead. It also has very low AC at 36 but 50 percent concealment? which is cut in half by blind fight. You can buff the AC up to 46 (50 with haste). So many trade offs..


I'm not going to entertain buffing a summon with free 50% concealment, a greatsword, overwhelming critical, and a buffed AC (50) that matches that of a full plate tower shield using fighter with a tumble dump in all +4 gear, while it gets to use a Greatsword. 90% of monsters don't have blindfight, and a free 25% concealment is still 25% more than most people get for free. All of these things function against living creatures, which the summon can freely be used against.

Summons aren't made to replace PCs, they're made to augment the caster's capability.
Author:  PuresoulX2 [ Mon, Mar 28 2016, 2:11 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
TormakSaber wrote:
PuresoulX2 wrote:
What about the respose domain summons? It has a power attack which makes it miss all the time.. I also don't like the con cant be buffed but its mostly that power attack.

Edit: Actually the final form (27) is odd. It has a greatsword which is not the most effective weapon against undead, a heavy flail/hammer would be better I think, and it has overwhelming crit which is useless against undead. It also has very low AC at 36 but 50 percent concealment? which is cut in half by blind fight. You can buff the AC up to 46 (50 with haste). So many trade offs..


I'm not going to entertain buffing a summon with free 50% concealment, a greatsword, overwhelming critical, and a buffed AC (50) that matches that of a full plate tower shield using fighter with a tumble dump in all +4 gear, while it gets to use a Greatsword. 90% of monsters don't have blindfight, and a free 25% concealment is still 25% more than most people get for free. All of these things function against living creatures, which the summon can freely be used against.

Summons aren't made to replace PCs, they're made to augment the caster's capability.


All I said was it was odd, Tormak. I did not say it had to be buffed.
Author:  Commie [ Mon, Mar 28 2016, 2:18 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
what trade offs did you mean then?
Author:  Maverick00053 [ Mon, Mar 28 2016, 2:19 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
Both the Undead and Repose domains are going to get a full rework. So this debate is moot.
Author:  PuresoulX2 [ Mon, Mar 28 2016, 2:20 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
Ultimately, I was merely suggesting the removal of power attack which itself is a trade off, a rather bad one which most summons suffer from. The suggestions of changing from a slashing to a blunt weapon is the most logical change to fight the undead, as I would expect what should come from such a summon but does not. I am done here.
Author:  Commie [ Mon, Mar 28 2016, 2:22 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
Any chance we can give summons cool weapons we never see pc's use like dire-flails and shit?
Author:  oshizo2 [ Mon, Mar 28 2016, 3:32 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
the winter wight and pharoh are wonderful. going to try the evil outsider next. Thank you guys for the re-work.
Author:  Darkblade [ Mon, Mar 28 2016, 7:42 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
TormakSaber wrote:
PuresoulX2 wrote:
What about the respose domain summons? It has a power attack which makes it miss all the time.. I also don't like the con cant be buffed but its mostly that power attack.

Edit: Actually the final form (27) is odd. It has a greatsword which is not the most effective weapon against undead, a heavy flail/hammer would be better I think, and it has overwhelming crit which is useless against undead. It also has very low AC at 36 but 50 percent concealment? which is cut in half by blind fight. You can buff the AC up to 46 (50 with haste). So many trade offs..


I'm not going to entertain buffing a summon with free 50% concealment, a greatsword, overwhelming critical, and a buffed AC (50) that matches that of a full plate tower shield using fighter with a tumble dump in all +4 gear, while it gets to use a Greatsword. 90% of monsters don't have blindfight, and a free 25% concealment is still 25% more than most people get for free. All of these things function against living creatures, which the summon can freely be used against.

Summons aren't made to replace PCs, they're made to augment the caster's capability.


Like Tormak pointed out , I have played a Doomguide for over two year now, and the summon is really strong, i'm expecting a nerve here, and rightfully so.
Don't let the starting stats mislead you fully buffed it has 54AC 44AB and construct immunities + its immune to the more deadly tricks Mobs use, like the Witches in the Abyss Spamming divine rays, it wont hurt him , and yea it deals a ton of damage , even against undead dont forget it has 2d6 Divine dmg, now trow another 2d6 positive bles weapon on it (BOT page) and it deals around 50-60 dmg on Undead per hit
Granted for this to work you have to devote nearly half your spelbook as a melee cleric only to him, but it works
And i want to point out you loose one attack per/round in order to get him

This is my opinion ofcourse and i could be completely wrong as i'm not a balance guru

Loving the WW change, it feels less like a grind for some reason even if its only one extra attack
The construct nerve i hardly noticed to be honest its still good (not OP)
the undead sentinel can finally do something now
Author:  oshizo2 [ Mon, Mar 28 2016, 14:30 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
okay so i tested out the outsider (evil) last night.. taking away to weird vulnerabilities is noticeable. giving him a hand axe really helps with him hitting a target. Huge improvement as he tends to hit one target hit a different one then go back to the one he was originally fighting (attacks of opportunity maybe) which keeps things attacking him.

He doesn't feel overly powerful but he doesn't not serve a purpose by the ai just ignoring him... yet again KUDOS.
Author:  Anatida [ Thu, Mar 31 2016, 16:30 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
Being my first time using a geared guardian I've noticed that GMW and Darkfire do not work when cast on it. Is the Guardian's weapon already a +5? Is it intentional that these spells don't work?

Thanks.
Author:  Maverick00053 [ Thu, Mar 31 2016, 16:43 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
It is intentional yep. It already has the best enhancement. Remember with critters that use creature weapons the sheet lies. The combat logs will reveal the true ab, and damage.
Author:  Maverick00053 [ Fri, Apr 01 2016, 1:41 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
Gate re-balanced. Notes above.

Feedback on any wankiness would be appreciated.
Author:  Akhlys [ Fri, Apr 01 2016, 3:03 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
Going to buff the terrible investment that is the epic shade lord?
Author:  Commie [ Fri, Apr 01 2016, 3:37 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
Maverick00053 wrote:
Gate re-balanced. Notes above.

Feedback on any wankiness would be appreciated.


nice work!
Author:  Darkblade [ Fri, Apr 01 2016, 11:39 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
Keep up the good work!!

2 questions regarding Gate
*Did you change the duration of Gate ? Could swear its longer now
*My cleric with Gate domain still can't extend Gate, is this intentional? if so could this be changed now that you balanced them

WW
For some reason it can be Banished now?

EMD undead
The blind aura also blinds my Dominated creatures and makes them hostile again
Don't have this problem with the Air elemental
Author:  Maverick00053 [ Fri, Apr 01 2016, 12:33 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
Darkblade wrote:
Keep up the good work!!

2 questions regarding Gate
*Did you change the duration of Gate ? Could swear its longer now
*My cleric with Gate domain still can't extend Gate, is this intentional? if so could this be changed now that you balanced them

WW
For some reason it can be Banished now?

EMD undead
The blind aura also blinds my Dominated creatures and makes them hostile again
Don't have this problem with the Air elemental


Gate duration on Amia was changed years ago to 2 Rounds/CL.

I am guessing it is very much intentional. Gate is a -very- powerful summon that shouldn't last longer than it already does.

WW was always banish-able. Summons in general can be banished.
Banishment Description: The caster is able to cause all summoned creatures, familiars, animal companions, and outsiders in the area of effect to be destroyed. A number of creatures equal to twice the caster's level in HD can be banished.

I would need more details about the dominated creatures issue to solve it.
Author:  thunderbrush [ Fri, Apr 01 2016, 13:23 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
Good work guys. I am glad to see that balancing is still a very high priority. I got the monk when it was still terrible, but didn't care, as I think that just standing behind one overpowered summon makes for a craptastic time. If I truly need a meat shield, I prefer to go to town and find one or two. Epic dungeons are meant to be epic, and shoukd be enjoyed by a group. I still have plans for a reskin of the monk..just waiting on DC's. Can't wait.
Author:  WrathOfTheNorth [ Sun, Apr 03 2016, 8:42 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
Kudos!
Author:  MoshingChris [ Sun, Apr 03 2016, 10:31 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
As the person that did the overhaul of the first iteration of the Repose / Undead domains they 100% needed to be updated further than what I did. The actual summoning script needed to be changed among a plethora of other things that I didn't end up doing because I had a whole swath of bad stuff happen to me when I left back in the day.

Will lend assistance if its wanted, haven't had the time over the past 3 years to even log into the website. Have truck loads of time now that I'm nearing the end of my degree.

Regards
Mosh
Author:  Kudark [ Mon, Apr 04 2016, 7:23 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
Nice to see you again.
Been seeing a lot of older players recently.
Author:  Maverick00053 [ Wed, Apr 06 2016, 21:43 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
Worth noting. No major changes should be noticed for EDK because of this.

Quote:
Normalized Epic Dragon Knight stats - Prismatic, Red and Silver Dragon summons now have the same Hit Dice and Hit Points. Previously, the Prismatic had a slight advantage and the Red a disadvantage.
Author:  MoshingChris [ Thu, Apr 07 2016, 2:20 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
Kudark wrote:
Nice to see you again.
Been seeing a lot of older players recently.


Cheers mate.
Author:  #StraightOutaAvernus [ Sat, Apr 09 2016, 12:06 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
Not that I've got any character it matters to but I've heard that the AB reduction was significant enough that Pattack was actually better on the Construct.

That may just be hearsay tho.
Author:  Commie [ Sat, Apr 09 2016, 16:13 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
#StraightOutaAvernus wrote:
Not that I've got any character it matters to but I've heard that the AB reduction was significant enough that Pattack was actually better on the Construct.

That may just be hearsay tho.


good i hate those fuckin robots.

immune to everything best ab best ac best dr wtf
Author:  MoshingChris [ Sat, Apr 09 2016, 19:10 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
I hate them to and I created them! :D
Author:  Darkblade [ Tue, Apr 12 2016, 14:28 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
Loving the new look of the NE Gate summons, gj !
Author:  Nalkanar [ Wed, Apr 27 2016, 12:46 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
Wild idea, maybe bit against balancing but...

It gets annoying when summon (in my case githzerai) is okay with fighting mobs but is slowly killed off by "weather" in the area (for example Maximus area or Fire Giant Lair). Maybe epic summons could get some basic resist (5/-) on these basic elements to counter enviroment around them, since for normal PC this is no issue to get equip they need with some extra elemental protection to counter this.

It just feels silly that githzerai with his *I cant say* and *I cant say as well* as well as good saves, have sometimes string of such unlucky dice roll, that he is almost taken apart by this minor issue.
Author:  bobofwestoregonusa [ Thu, Apr 28 2016, 19:48 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
I generally approve of the fat naked man (from the NE gate, not behind my keyboard) being clothed.
Author:  GreatPigeon [ Thu, Apr 28 2016, 20:20 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
The construct fully buffed by a druid either takes a year or is killed by most epic mobs I've brought it to. Im not sure what the balance level is but its fairly depressing.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Fri, Apr 29 2016, 4:06 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
Wasnt changed besides regen and the AB, and removing ower attack means it actually netted an AB increase, so nothing that's going to bring about what your statement said.
Author:  bobofwestoregonusa [ Sat, Jul 02 2016, 11:17 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
I just wanted to say that amia's new summons actually look like attractive choices now, thanks so much for this list of much needed changes.
Author:  Murex [ Sun, Jul 03 2016, 1:03 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
Are the Shadowdancer summons going to be changed too?
Author:  TormakSaber [ Sun, Jul 03 2016, 6:06 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
Shadowdancer is in a rough place in general - right now our dev focus is on redoing the spells, but we can take a look at the shadowdancer summon, I think, if Maverick wants to chime in here. It's definitely a much easier thing to look at vs, say familiars and animal companions, which are monsters to try to do.
Author:  Maverick00053 [ Sun, Jul 03 2016, 17:33 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summon Changes - Update/Feedback
I certainly can take a look at the SD summons. I don't know if I want to buff it though since Shadow Dancers aren't really about being a summoner, but ill check out its stats anyway and think it over.
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