Hmm, that is odd... My badger shape is DEX based and even gives the druid Weapon Finesse, which I dont think works with creature weapons? Have to check the combat log but I dont think the AB is correct there.

Yeah 32 isn't true. It has more. The lvl 25 druid version, anyways.

I do not have tumble. Pappy is a druid and another class which doesn't get it. It was never intended that he would as that wasn't what he was designed to do. In that event it would be possible that I would need to rework the build. So be it, but don't tell me 32 isn't possible as I just showed that it is.

I also posted the buffed version below. I used every single direct buff spell for a druid that doesn't override another (stoneskin being overridden by greater stoneskin, etc.) That 40 drops to 38 as soon as AoV goes away.

why is your dex lower then mine then? did you max cats grace and aura of vit?

As AoV is a flat +4 to con, dex, and str there is no benefit to maximizing it. With Cat's maxed out (or just a better roll) AC would go up by 1 as dex would then be 30. Considering his base it 10 it may be making some difference. I don't know yours to cross reference.

Yeah 32 isn't true. It has more. The lvl 25 druid version, anyways.

Given from what I was told, I thought I'd voice my opinion here!

The dire cougar has 10d6 sneak attacks and HiPs which equates to a hefty 19 rogue levels and 6 shadowdancer levels. Doesn't this demean sneaker builds in just one form? In addition to the fact that druids have considerably a lot at their disposal- enchantments, offensive spells, healing spells, animal companion, epic summon, more forms for flexibility. And not having to rely too heavily on hide gear with camoufladge and mass camoufladge.

IMO, the dire cougar needs to be tweeked down.

Honest feedback time.

They are all still pretty lackluster compared to the elemental forms.

They might have a little more HP sometimes, but water/air ele can get way more ac, earth ele gets a shit ton of DR, fire ele has a higher AB, and unlike the animals... and they are all immune to crits and all kinds of shit being elementals.

With no spells, no immunities, and lower if not the same numbers compared to elemental shapes, but coming at the same level, I don't see why they exist or would ever be used. They either need more numbers (ac ab dmg etc) then the elemental forms to make up for the loss of spells (infinite acid cloud, stonehold, aoe knockdown, or fireball is ineradicable) and the loss of immunities and the loss of things like 5 dr feats and elemental immunities.

Right now they aren't an alternative, just a mechanically worse option in basically every way, which is what they were before. Now it's just less mechanically worse.

Suggestion; make sure they have better raw numbers (stats/ab/ac) to make up for the fact that they have zero utility and no crit immunity.

Given from what I was told, I thought I'd voice my opinion here!

The dire cougar has 10d6 sneak attacks and HiPs which equates to a hefty 19 rogue levels and 6 shadowdancer levels. Doesn't this demean sneaker builds in just one form? In addition to the fact that druids have considerably a lot at their disposal- enchantments, offensive spells, healing spells, animal companion, epic summon, more forms for flexibility. And not having to rely too heavily on hide gear with camoufladge and mass camoufladge.

IMO, the dire cougar needs to be tweeked down.

The elementals are too good w/ the spell spamming, yes.

The animal forms are already like that. Stop reading the character sheet and read the combat logs.

Some of those animals hit mid 40 AB easy and more with the proper buffs.

Given from what I was told, I thought I'd voice my opinion here!

The dire cougar has 10d6 sneak attacks and HiPs which equates to a hefty 19 rogue levels and 6 shadowdancer levels. Doesn't this demean sneaker builds in just one form? In addition to the fact that druids have considerably a lot at their disposal- enchantments, offensive spells, healing spells, animal companion, epic summon, more forms for flexibility. And not having to rely too heavily on hide gear with camoufladge and mass camoufladge.

IMO, the dire cougar needs to be tweeked down.

The cat does have rogue/SDs on classy looks, though.

Would it be asking too much to ask that we get the actual changes that took place for all the affected shapes versus what they were? It would stand to reason that such transparency would help the playerbase determine what was intended and can check if it's working like you wanted.

Now as to all these changes going about and the proposed changes to the elemental forms does this mean we're looking at free rebuilds for those impacted? Giving all the people that currently play druids such fundamental changes in how their characters work would put them at a major disadvantage in comparison with any characters built with the changes already in mind. I know DC rebuilds can be done but it seems a bit harsh to make someone spend their DCs just to adjust to changes made by the dev team.