I'm not sure if its something that I am starting to notice more and more often these days or of it is something that has existed on the forums since forever, but I am seeing people refer to PVP and the implications it has towards their argument very often. PVP seems to be this thing that people build for, using it as a counter argument to balance issues and "what if" scenarios that everyone should gear for. But I for one really struggle to understand where this line of thought comes from.

I don't have the best record of attendance on Amia, having taken long breaks here and there since joining in 2009, but I feel that I've had enough time in game and experience on both sides of the alignment coin to have a good grasp of how threatening PVP is to general gameplay. Not once in my time on Amia have I ever felt that a sense of a strong PVP environment, I don't think that the mentality for PVP is there, most people just want to get on with their RP and enjoy their time in game uninterrupted. If they didn't have to deal with the occasional individual or small group who actually wanted to smash some face because they recently arrived on Amia and brought with them high expectations of PVP, I honestly don't think they would ever bother with it. Any time I've seen PVP attempted, it's quickly squashed (through IC and OOC means) and those that had the intention to PVP often are beaten in to submission to play nice and the PVP dies off quickly so that the status quo can resume. I've come to accept that and have no complaints in that regard, so be it, but this results in the other issue I have.

Why do people still plan and balance around PVP as if it is something as common as a hunting giants in Brog? We all know that Amias "good" playerbase enforces that there only ever be subtle evil, and you could argue that people are geared and built for PVP to ensure that it stays that way, but I feel that the existing and potential new "evil" players are so far into submission to that enforcement that they simply wont attempt open evil conflict anymore, but they will still build for PVP. It's like both sides of the alignment are investing, buying and storing Nukes for mutually assured destruction, with no intent on ever using them (But they will damn well be sure to tell the other side that if they try anything, they gonna get it!). When it comes to discussions about feats, improvements, builds, requests, the conversation usually reaches a point where it takes a PVP twist, and actually tends to take over the conversation until things get heated by PVP theorycrafters facing off in a text duel, causing original topic points to be discarded.

I accept that I could just be ignorant to a whole PVP movement happening on Amia right now (and I really apologize if I have offended in my ignorance), but I haven't truly heard of or seen any PVP occurrences that suggests that it is worth building/gearing specifically for PVP since the Ruathym cult and Banites days. I hope that I am wrong, that everything I just mentioned is false. If I am wrong, please correct me, get me involved in it, tell me more about it. Nothing makes a server more alive than open, regular faction combat.

But if there really is little to no PVP on Amia these days, perhaps we could all adopt a less PVP-centric mindset for an environment that doesn't demand it? Maybe we could put our efforts in to discovering ways to enhance RP, and develop new, never before seen builds that exploit the NWN system to deliver some truly unique characters and RP encounters since they need not be built to the teeth to best others in PVP? Bring out the Dirty Fighting, Circle Kicks and Whirlwind builds!

I've offered a poll for curiosity. Thanks for reading, I welcome your thoughts!

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My stance on this is very simple. If people think of this as an RP server, which it is, then you're expected to deal with the occasional PvP battle. Unless your character is so reclusive nobody tends to care about them. Not really a bad thing. Some people like that kind of RP. Personally I've been using Maurice to instigate some conflict, using PvP and RP. Often RP does lead to PvP, but it's all about how the player responds is what makes it fun or just crap. The level of immaturity can be frustrating when people lose, but often there's just reason for the frustration, such as rules being broken or their characters suffer long-term for an impulse action.

I am and always have been more inclined to 'roll with the punches' so to speak. I think it to be a healthy mindset, and I also find RPing injuries of certain degrees to be fun. For example, recently my noble PC was kidnapped and had his hands cut off. Ofcourse, Amia being the way it is, they were quickly fixed. That doesn't always sit well with me, so my noble's currently suffering from constant shooting pains through his wrists and the inability to stop them from shaking. Thus he's not able to really hunt due to the injury. Not only because I feel it to be fun, but so the attackers can feel like their attack had impact, that it was worth while and lead to RP. Sure it may not concern their characters but atleast the player has that sense of satisfaction that their actions aren't just utterly ignored past the initial scene of RP.

The last thing I will say is that PvP has a negative light on Amia, for a multitude of reasons. The server has a reputation for going OOC when it happens, sapping the potential joy out of it. All I can honestly say is that if we want PvP to be constructive to RP we have to start making it fun for the person on the losing end and encouraging friendly or at the very least civil OOC behaviour. Something I'm trying very hard to achieve right now with my barbarian. Instead what I've noticed instead is people questioning mechanics on the forum, something I refuse to comment on as I know that my recent PvP exploits have lead to this. I don't know what Maurice's enemies are doing in response, and I don't want to know OOC, not until they try it. I do hope Kacha has something in mind to get her own back for Maurice's seemingly unwarranted assault on the shrine. I also hope the player's not upset by the encounter. If they are, I would encourage them to message me and discuss what happened so both players understand each other, and nobody takes anything personal. (I used Kacha as a mere example, but it applies to all I've encountered and likely will encounter.)

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MAURICE "THE JUGGERNAUT" GRAFF

This is totally fine, and I encourage for there to be the occasional PvP battle, but this in no way should mean that people should build specifically for that occasion, instead of for example taking character building, RP specific things like Epic Reputation and just dealing with the PvP encounter in the same way, you lose or you win and react to it IC. If you're playing and RP'ing a weaselly squire 99% of the time and then pop out the invincible saving throws, knockdown immune discipline skill and /12 critical threat during the 1% of the time you have PVP encounter because you're mechanically built for it, something about that just doesn't sit right with me.

I don't have much comment on the rest of your post other than I hope you can maintain your characters actions and continue to have fruitful PVP encounters for some time yet, and don't succumb to the usual pressures that seem to erase PVP disturbances from the server.

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If your build can pvp then you can pve too, every single build on the server and character concept can be made while also maintaining power. The notion of "RP" builds and "power builds" is simply silly. Opustus posted a very good example of a powerful build that has all the leeway of a being RP flavored.

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bad man

Yes, fine, but why does everyone need to be powerful demi gods? You can be an asset in PVE and still manage all of the endgame content without having a min-maxed build and gear that would mean that you would tear off the head of anyone that opposed you. In our current setting, I disagree with planning your RP around your build, your build should be planned around your RP to enhance it. If Amia was a more hostile place where PVP was the primary theme, then I would totally reverse that sentiment out of necessity to survive in such a setting. There was a topic not too long ago raising the point about people not RPing their abilities correctly, you had people with 6 Charisma walking around as beautiful flowers with charming personalities, but they had that 6 Charisma because they maxed out their stats to perform. Its the same with PVP builds that "perform" in PVE and are then having their RP built around them.


Heres a scenario:

In one hand you have the the beggar who happens to be a god of war, and in the other hand, you have the beggar who might be incredibly wise and fairly clever, and maybe has a fairly good throwing arm (investing in RP feats, etc and Zen Archery), but is by no means a threat to most. The beggar comes in to some wealth and his life picks up for the better, he starts to become an adventurer of sorts, able to join in others in their ventures, but he never really amounts to anything more than he was as a beggar. The wise beggar is still only being able to offer a pretty good throw of a dart or sling at the most, but hes able to contribute to the group in his efforts. The god of war beggar is a machine of destruction in combat, able to survive mortal ending blows with nothing more than a cough, his group fear him and his mechanical prowess but say nothing about it as they choose to see him as the simple beggar. After an adventure, the beggar remains humble, still preferring a simple life despite his newfound wealth. The god of war beggar goes on to live a happy life, outright destroying several foes in his lifetime without as much as breaking a sweat in any of the occasions. The wise beggar lives mostly a happy life, but faces many setbacks, dieing several times to aggressors more capable than he, those close to him bringing him back to the living world several times. He becomes older and wiser and lives a humble life.

Which beggar would you prefer to see or play, which makes more sense?

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Why do player characters need to be homeless people? The very suggestion of it is almost antithetical to being a player character in the first place. Your example reaches into some farce where everyone is expected to be average. It really isn't the purpose of having people play the game; be exceptional and reach for the stars. Choosing to be a cog in the machine is totally fine, even choosing to be simple is but the idea that people should be expected too just sort of defeats the purpose.

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

People have basically summed up my opinion on this already. We have this topic come around every few months to no real avail, honestly.

The bottom line will always be this: you can always have decent builds that still hold a candle to "RP" centric themes. In other words, you don't have to sacrifice an actually viable PvP or PvE build for the sake of RP. You can easily have both, and having one doesn't mean you're excluded from the other. "PvP" builds and "RP" builds are not mutually exclusive.

If you dont know the mechanics very well or how to make a viable build (in terms of defending itself against other PCs and their environment) for a concept you like, there are tons of people who can help you and even an entire subforum dedicated to it. People going up in arms about "PvP" builds is, in my opinion, on the same level as telling people they aren't RPing correctly.

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Thats the way it crumbles ... cookie-wise!

Just play your char. If your char is weak be weak. If they ain't, powerbuild. Amia provides all the tools to be weak, powerful, anything in-between. If you want to be a peasant turned paladin you can do that too.

Though to your questions I say I personally build for PvP on chars I want to be strong. I also have a bard who will never pass level 3. Outlier as he is, it is true to his char. My personal play style gears me towards being built to throw down, hence the builds and chars I play.

Conflict is healthy, and pvp is one of it's tools. I would say that it tends to lack gravity on Amia because of an underlying meta of consequence aversion when administered between players. This is a very large and beaten dead horse though so I will just let my dog cover my feelings on it.

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bad man

My only problem with PvP, is that whenever there is conflict, it feels like as if the vast majority of the server will embark unto a crusade to put a stop to the rabble-rousers until non-passive evil/conflict is gone and they can resume their tea party without disturbance. I've seen it happen often over the years, and it's a detriment to healthy conflict.

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I didn't want this to turn in to an RP vs Power Build thread, that's not my intention, I know there have been dozens of threads like that already. Lets nip that in the bud now before it grows. My point stands that PVP still seems to be at the forefront of discussions despite their being a lack of it, if people want to build for it, fair enough, but I don't agree with how often people are advised to build (without asking for it) or it or how often it takes over a topic. I don't believe there is enough of a PVP presence to warrant it.

I'm not sure how else I can express myself, I don't usually speak about things like this and just let it be. I suppose I just wanted to make my opinion known about how I perceive the current forum PVP mindset so that maybe others could possibly relate to it and passively expose it as an area for improvement. I don't know, take what you want from this thread. Thanks for humoring me anyway.

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PvP is the more important thing to balance around because those fights really matter and its good to have a playing field with no BS.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

Wise words. Both.

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Zendaer Amattis
Torgon Crimsonshade
Khalid Athanalo
CET time zone

I just witnessed a mob two days ago. My character was fairly close to being shived for something he didn't do. xD

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Devlin Faramond - Warrior Priest of Tempus
Aithne Ryrathrak - Red Dragon Disciple, Bronze Dragon Slayer
May'rinna D'vilrath - Underdarker and Noble House Sorceress

I agree, and the evil doers doesn't even to engage in PvP, people seem to gang up on any kind of conflict.

On the other hand, maybe it's just a sign that people need more conflict, it's too little conflict spread on too many individuals.

Another trend I've seen is that people expect to and want to stop conflict ASAP, especially from players, rather than letting a long and interesting plot/story unfold. A good villain is beaten in the end, but not before challenging and changing and making an impact on the heroes.

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I am not weird, I am limited edition

Well... after a while of coming out on the bottom every time some folks decide it's time for a change. On top of that I find my 'roleplay perks' are often not even acknowledged when the rare occasion they are brought up. I personally have run in to pvp far more often than my open lock skills for rp, or my points in persuade... and my ride skill has never come up. Even Imp KD and Imp DA have yet to come up for their intended purposes for roleplay.

Spell craft, spot listen Search and Lore are the most common skills I see brought up in rp situations and in this case they all have pretty neat reasons except maybe lore to take them for pvp builds.

No one really takes things like Bluff in to account either and typically roll the wrong stat such as spot for some one trying to fake their voice when it should be listen. Since there are no rules being enforced on this people can do what ever they like. When you try to roleplay an 'rp build' you sacrifice power. these
pvp builds' are far stronger and typically the winners of bouts have far more influence than the looser in my many bouts of experience. So if folks who win the fights are substantially making a bigger impact over all there is merits to want to win some times.

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Most of my 'pvp builds' have some if not all of those skills. Spot lore and spellcraft are amazing.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

Yes. exactly my point. There's no real reason to reach for other skills as they are far rarer used and all those skills have other purposes such as finish traps or sneaks. So why not build for a character that will inevitably be more influential because they tend to come out on top?

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This is good sense.

As for the pvp builds that are perfectly viable RP builds, sure. But people are making the build, then fashioning the RP around that. That's still powerbuilding, before RPing. The excuse doesn't justify anything. They're still making their munchkin build. And the fact that so many people come up with the 'perfect' build, and the same reason that the aformentioned 'sub forum' is the single most viewed/replied to thread on the forums should lend weight to the influence pvp has on the server. We all know that PVE really doesn't require that level of character building.

We can create justifications and excuses. That's what we do. We make shit up, we're story tellers.....but who are we trying to fool......

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I Am:
Derrin: 'Nothing to see here'
Beck: Hard working dwarf paladin.
Naela 'Widow': Wandering priestess.
Celinor Triellian: Paladin of Corellon.

I mean, I disagree here. I don't need epic skill focus bluff to tell a good lie ic. The skills don't even benefit me in an rp standpoint so why take them at all?

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

it doesn't "lend weight", it shows that people enjoy the mechanical aspects of the server, and also shows that the server is willing to help people who may not have the same indepth knowledge or appreciation of the mechanics as they do. If you actually go into the forums and read the topics you'll see that a great deal of it is people who are looking to make builds to accomodate RP, and changes to builds are frequently done to help people meet a concept or RP stipulation.

You are being vastly overdramatic with your proclamations here.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Epic reputation and the bluff/persuade lines of building will net you little gains. I have made "conversation" type characters in the past, and current server rules dictate that they can be ignored. Even when someone is successfully bluffed they tend to tapdance around the subject hoping to "catch" you. Until this changes, they are just fluff, and won't be honored the way they should, which is a 100% legitimate and viable way to solve conflict without trading blows. A shame, really.

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Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.

Michael Harcourte: Painter, Scribe.

Sebastian Mayartte: Gambler, MercenaryDeceased

I never challenged the willingness for people to help other people. I was sticking to the OP, and that is regarding pvp. With builds and the potential for pvp..... the rich get richer. Those that design a build by numbers first will always have an advantage in a game like this. Its too common for an 'rp' dispute to degenerate into pvp. The good builders will always win, and those that aren't very good will have to live with loosing until they ask for help, which they will invariably will do so that they don't end up loosing all the time. And it becomes a vicious circle until we end up where we are now. A server full of good builds that can always win a fight...which is what it boils down to, too much of the time.

I'm not denying, or taking away from the rp that happens on the server. The OP is about pvp, and that's what I'm aiming my comments at.



A comment like this is very subjective, and a bit unfair. Even from you.

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I Am:
Derrin: 'Nothing to see here'
Beck: Hard working dwarf paladin.
Naela 'Widow': Wandering priestess.
Celinor Triellian: Paladin of Corellon.

I had someone tell me skeletons were allowed in Kohl, and then rolled a three digit bluff saying we should go there. When I said they were lying, they walked away, logged off, and half an hour later logged back on and told me I was ignoring rp.

This is why nobody cares about bluff rolls.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

Yeah, I don't think they understand the flipside of the coin that some bluffs are so unbelievable that there's no point in a roll, it just wouldn't work

The only time bluff has been useful was when a pc notified the guards and a dm came up to question my pc about what happened. He gave a viable story and rolled a bluff check to the guards. It wasn't true but it wasn't something miraculously improbable... the guard countered the bluff and came up a few points short... and the guard believed my pc... the OOC that followed that was unbelievable as the pc who initially got the guards was scolded for making things up simply because my PC had managed to be convincing. The player of that pc went on to curse at me in tells, spread ooc knowledge IC that their character had absolutely zero means of knowing, and continued to push IC with OOC knowledge.


People will behave poorly no matter what in some instances.

However the one rare time I was actually able to legitimately use the skill for it's intended purpose I was gifted with a poor experience because some one got irrationally angry OOC and let their behavior affect their character. If people behave like this what is the point of spending points on Bluff?


Edit: This all happened because I initially rolled checks for pick pocket when their character was distracted. They choose to give up a physical item ic rather then fluff when I said it was fine to just emote w/e going missing... then threw a fit when they couldn't get it back... It was a small item with gems on it.

At the time my PC and another pc were working together to sell the classic double rogue shtick of misdirection we roleplayed with and succeeded our checks. Some folks will be sore losers no matter what. One of the two pc's charmed and distracted her IC whilst mine was the one designated to do the 'dirty work' of stealing... When ooc gets pushed ic and you have a mob coming after you; what do you want? Pick pocket or discipline or spell craft?

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The rich can't get richer when there's an entire forum dedicated to helping 'the poor' become rich, and are completely willing and able to do so. It's not common for RP disputes to turn into pvp, and good builder don't always win. PvP happens very rarely these days. There was probably more PvP at my PvP tourney than the last few months combined. It really doesn't happen much anymore, and when it does, it rarely if ever amounts to anything in terms of an actual impact on people, or any actual consequences, unless the player chooses to enforce it on themselves. Those that aren't "good" asking for help is a cornerstone of RP, and it's been that way since 2004: Calling in The Big Guys when someone gets in your face is a time honored tradition both IRL and in fantasy worlds. Why should we discourage it here? The "incompetent warrior" who is surrounded by 5 Big Dudes who are completely loyal and ready to put their dukes up is a classic archetype. Hell i'm pretty sure this is Gerald Edmund's entire shtick (no shade tossed at Gerald, that just seems his MO)

The server "ends up where we are now?" Man, I saw a powerbuild get punked by a bunch of fluke 20's y a build that had absolutely no business doing so. And they'll have to live with that forever. Where did the server end up? Because it's certainly not some PvP, powerbuild heaven. Again., I want to reiterate: there is an entire forum dedicated to helping people who are not comfortable with the game, become more comfortable. The rich cannot just 'get richer' when pretty much all of the rich have taken an entire forum dedicated to helping everyone else become 'as rich as them', to continue the metaphor. They're actively working to move the mechanical comfort of the server, and are doing it in wyas that reach out to and accomodate their RP and concepts.

That's why I made that overdramatic comment. Because I still know the builds people are making and I see what's going on, and you are vastly overstating what's going on. It's not fair? No, it's not fair for you to make these sweeping comments about the server that aren't actually true.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

I try to avoid PVP.... I just don't find it fun but I do enjoy fighting monsters, DMs...ect so as anyone who reads the DC requests threads know I always keep trying to push the power limit.

As some of you might remember in the old days I did use to PVP more as a counter to chaotic stupid in the amia forest, but once that stopped I did as well. But its still a very real fact it might come up IC and have to be done if we like it or not... and in turn needs to be balanced.
The reason why I used to PVP in Amia forest was because back then things were unbalanced, Dev crit would auto kill, and heal potions had no cool down and it was case chug pots to survive and fish for 1 rolls with dev crits till you win and they would steam roll people day after day for the lolz, and sometimes they really hammered that home when they spammed raise scrolls to keep killing you over and over because it also had no cool down.


Over the years the DMs have made some good balance changes that did a lot to help with PVP....but that does not mean they should stop factoring it into balance and it risks becoming a problem again.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

Bluff, persuade, and the like are more meant for NPC conversation are they not? RP between actual players should be based on how convincing the RP is. Just my opinion.

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Plays Yoweth'Ssissth Kelia

Bluff/Persuade and such in PC interaction is more towards how believable a person sounds in what they're saying. For instance, if you roll a 100 on a bluff check saying that Skeletons are allowed into Kohlingen, whoever hears is going to believe that YOU think your absolutely telling the truth. This might edge them towards thinking it is actually true, but in the case of Skellys in Kohlingen, if they actually know the laws or culture of the place, they will still know that you are wrong. They'll just believe that you think your telling the absolute truth (from your perspective/opinion).

^Personal opinion

There's a skeleton inside every single commoner, guard, and noble in Kohlingen. Fact.

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Melsa

There are horrors beyond life's edge that we do not suspect,
and once in a while, man's evil prying calls them just within our range.

Plus Kohlingen also has Law-signs at all entry points so... xD

Suggesting PVP is detrimental to the server is... neat. My only problem with PVP is when an evil group is formed around it. Like... great, you can mob kill people; you'll be fun for all three months you last until one or all of you realize this was an awful idea with no direction. Okay, I suppose I have a secondary issue with PVP: people that can't separate their actions from their consequences.
Example (this happened to me a week ago):
A Lolthite Drow is standing at Minmir bridge with a acid dripping scimitar drawn, shield out, helm up.
At this point, I had no reason to think them a Drow, just an armed and buffed dude with weapons ready.
Veris, whilst sneaking, asked if he was okay, if he was under attack, and the player was clearly afk.
As Veris walked away from the idler, he messaged me saying "OH 'X' WOULD HAVE SAID A BUNCH OF RUDE BULL SHIT"
I responded in tell with "good news, Veris is still within ear shot".
And the rude bull shit came spewing forth. Told Veris to fuck off, that having weapons out was for his own safety. Veris told him "there are active patrols from Kohlingen if you're in true danger" at which point the drow said "Just move along, leave me alone".
As Veris is walking away once more... the man called him the Drow slang for "trash".
Veris turned about and said "You just -had- to be a dick and a Drow"
At this point, he admitted to be a lolthite without any instigation towards it and threatened Veris (whom he still could not see). Veris said "Murdering someone wasn't on my schedule but I always have room for Drow scum"
He said "Are you prepared?" and opened a portal
Veris followed, we ended up in the abyss where I said "Yes, I believe I'm quite prepared"
Aaaaand he lost his everloving shit on me OOC. Said that he didn't want PVP and I should just leave him alone. I responded with "Then why in the hell did you provoke a moon elf on a lolthite drow!?"
At which point he degraded into this mess of embarrassment and shit slinging and a reminder as to why I left the server last year. He claimed, get this, that I 'wanted to be provoked'. I tried explaining that "that's not how shit works. If I wanted random PVP, I would have just broken rules and attacked you without provocation." Explained to him that he can't instigate fights like that and expect to get away with it. He didn't understand and, around this point, it became blatantly obvious that this person isn't mentally stable. I peaced out, Veris let him live and went back on with his life and I've not seen the player on since.

-That- is the qualm I have with PVP. Brats on the server forgetting the golden rule:
"Talk shit, get hit"
We are playing in the Forgotten Realms, not an episode of Friends™.
War happens. Murders happen. Killers both serial and mass exist. If you can't deal with the setting, become a homeless PC or a mundane nobody in a world of savagery and sorcery. I mean, play what you want but I'm going to play PC's that are strictly rooted to the reality about them. That this isn't a developed civilization on Earth is something so many of you seem to forget or ignore entirely. You aren't granted a fair trial if you fuck up. You aren't promised a lawyer if you can't afford one. If you spit on the face of a priest of Bane, they're going to murder you in a hilariously awesome way.
PVP exists on Amia because of the setting. You think we have idols and the ability to worship Orcus, Bane, Cyric, Mask, Velsharoon and Beshaba so that the Necromaster can have a cup of tea with the Demarchs? Nooo, we have them because evil exists. When evil and good clash, unless it's at holy ground like Kampo's, expect it to be like Israel and Palestine. Expect there to be blood. If you can mediate it through diplomacy, good one on you but you don't need bluff or persuade for that; you need a silver tongue.

On the argument of bluff and persuade? Yeah, they were cool until a couple players started abusing the fuck out of them. If you roll 100 on persuade and then type "Hey guys, stoppit" you're officially in the crossfire. If you roll a 100 on persuade and then offer a reasonable solution, well thought out and worded, as to why two parties should not fight, you bet your ass I'll take it into more consideration than if you hadn't rolled a triple digit persuade. If you use those rolls to say "Hey, the sky is purple", you're the reason no one takes those rolls seriously anymore. If you say "Skeletons are allowed in Kohlingen" with a massive bluff, you're the reason no one takes those skills seriously anymore.
Problem with those inherently is that any PC could be played as already not trusting -anyone-. (Fresh Eilistraeen on the surface knows they're a potential target, why believe anything anyone says?)

If you've dumped into bluff and persuade, you're one of like... three players. Maybe one day a DM will have you roll it but that's a pretty shitty thing to do considering they were invented so that you could have more dialogue options with NPC's in the campaign. Doesn't transfer well when you add actual people into the equation; doesn't open more dialogue options. If you log because someone doesn't listen to your ridiculous bluff/persuade statements, you're part of the problem. Might as well have dumped into 'ride' and complained that there are no horses.

PVP= you don't have to build around it but most, if not all, good pvp builds can take down any monster in the game no problem.
RP= I consider 'RP' builds (still hate that phrase after ten years) to be something like Jackie, pure rogue, uber skills, very little combat value but hot damn can the man do literally anything else.

Bottom line, you don't like PVP, don't PVP. It -is- avoidable. I played Castor for almost two years and only PVP'd once to dev crit Maiti after a public murder; didn't finish with a followup killing blow.
You don't like PVP, don't say things that would warrant your murder, don't associate with those that are walking bounties waiting to happen but, most of all, don't provoke someone into pvp and then scream "WHERE'S MY OUT?" while they're beating your dumbass senseless.

(the non pvp whore drops the mic for the next contender)

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Hel'Vyst Be'tner
Veris Al'Rith

- "Fuck you, I'm from Waterdeep."



(OMGOSH OLIVE MADE A LIL' HEL'VYST)

Don't let a few bad apples spoil everything.



This is how it should be, and actually is, provided you give the big ooc ((pvp warning)).

edit; also the strongest combat build on the server is a primarily rogue build and has crazy skills.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

Honestly, it doesn't even require the OOC message of a PvP Warning, unless it's not immediately obvious. Generally it's perfectly fine to make it apparent IC. You have a blade out and were like "Leave before I lose my temper." and they keep talking shit, that doesn't even need any sort of PvP Warning, OOC. Read the situation and judge accordingly. It's actually fairly rare when an OOC warning should be needed, honestly.

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No it does, or DM's swoop in and say it didn't happen, regardless of how obvious the posturing was, how many ic warnings were given out before and after weapons got drawn, regardless of what the 'aggressor' was doing, none of that will matter at all if you don't give the pvp warning. They can even attack you first and it will get over-written as a null if there was no ooc pvp warning.

Always always always always type "pvp warning" in ooc chat or you will get it over-ruled as a non-event by a DM.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

In seven years of being here I've never seen DMs do that unless it was exceptional circumstance, such as infanticide or such.

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Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

Wooooord. Even Drow McProvocation got an OOC tell of "Veris is about to attack you".
That's when the IC "Are you prepared" came in. Follow PVP rules or it doesn't happen and everyone leaves having wasted time.

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Hel'Vyst Be'tner
Veris Al'Rith

- "Fuck you, I'm from Waterdeep."



(OMGOSH OLIVE MADE A LIL' HEL'VYST)

I think it's mindblowingly stupid. But you do it anyway. I had an issue when someone writing me ic death threats, says they will kill me next time they see me, then run into me, say they're about to kill me, I tell them repeatedly to get the fuck out, and then they opt to rest to re-buff right in front of me. I killed them, and it got overturned by 2 DM's. As even though they were the aggressor, had been baiting the pvp for weeks via letters stating their intent to murder, even though they got told four plus times to leave go away and stop threatening, and even though the pvp rules say resting/buffing forgoes your right to a warning, none of that mattered as I never said ooc pvp warning, just ic pvp warnings.

So always always always say ooc pvp warning.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

What Commie said. Always OOC PVP Warning. To not do so invites what you just read above, so just always CYA.

You were in the fight commie mentioned on your cleric of velsharoon.

I'd be curious to know how long ago that example you cited had happened, actually.

Well I got the ic death threat July second, so it was sometime around then.

Listen guys, the details don't matter.

The take away is that unless someone starts casting spells on you or actually attacking you, always just say PVP WARNING in ooc chat before attacking. The situation doesn't matter, your histories don't matter, events that are happening right then and there are utterly irrelevant. Always just say PVP WARNING in ooc chat. Or it gets undone.

So just do it, always.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

Actually it does matter but I digress.

Not to the people making the call on weather or not the pvp counted or gets undone.

If you don't do a ooc pvp warning, nothing you do matters. At least 2 dm's confirmed this.

So always do it.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

I mean, every single PvP situation I've been in has never carried an OOC warning, and DMs have always ruled it as valid. It's a nice courtesy to give, but it's not actually required. The rules state it just has to be a clear IC warning, overall.



So yeah. It's nice to give an OOC warning, but it's by no means required. Not unless there really isn't a way to clearly state that there are incoming hostilities, IC.

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Can we get a DM comment then? I've had stuff overturned due to 'no pvp warning' despite clear hostilities and intentions to attack from the other party, and would like to not have to do it all the time.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

Yeah as long as there's a clear IC intention.. I've never seen a rule requiring OOC warning, simply the opporitunity to back ou of the incoming PVP

This is what i was going on. Received IG letters a specific individual was going to come kill us. Encountered that person, they reiterated their threat. We told them to leave, they didn't, told them again we would kill them if they didn't scoot, they didn't and instead plopped down to rest. I fought them assuming the



rule applied.

DM's said it did not apply in this case, as despite the threats, ig threats, telling them to leave or else, and the resting; none of it mattered as we didn't say ooc "pvp warning" and the pvp was undone. Lutra and sammy ruled on it. As of that day I still don't know when that rule applies or what its for if the situation it describes (resting = forfeiting a warning in a highly hostile situation) isn't enforced.

I have lots more screens odv but don't want to post it all as it's got a lot of back and forth between multiple parties who likely don't want to be involved.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

They were wrong.

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