This is a raw mechanics topic, lore IS NOT to be discussed.
I believe the RDD class was rather substantially over buffed. It's at the point where I don't see any actual practical reason to roll any strength build that isn't an RDD.
Splashing RDD is also a substantially better splash for almost any class that uses strength at all. Spellsword builds, usually high sorcerer, previously had a few good choices in terms of where to splash 4-6 levels at the end of their build. Now there's really no reason to not just pick up 4 levels and get a whopping four strength and a free 1 AC that's always on no matter what. Bard also might as well snag four RDD levels as well, for the same reasons. Ranger bard rdd 4 bane of enemies is crazy good too, and it's just four levels, you can even use the free RDD strength to stat for lower initial strength (allocating things into int/con instead) but max out your mighty bow str cap unbuffed. Essentially any strength build (except Paladin because you can't be a bard and be lawful) is just better with 4 RDD worked in there if it can afford 4 levels somewhere.
In fact, it's pretty stellar on any build that was going to grab a bard level anyway (now just grab two) and get 4 strength and 1 ac. Because 4 strength and 1 ac for four levels is way way too good.
The end result would be a class that requires more then 4 levels to see a real benefit from (as it stands it's the highest benefit for lowest investment prc), and would be an alternative to other strength builds, but not just outright better in every measurable way.
As it is now RDD stands tall above all other strength builds in at best, every category, and at worst ties in a few and wins everything else. Due to these facts I believe the class needs a nerf.
Thing with this is that base RDD already gets pretty much all of that in just the 10 base level span. The server already had it nerfed, but extended the ability to get the full benefits. But to do so, you'd need to sink HEAVILY into the class, with epic levels. You'd effectively abolish any other class in epic levels just to get said bonuses, after all.
Additionally, for those who just dip for slight strength bonuses, I'm fairly certain that's one of the classes that ISN'T allowed for dumping due to what it does. At least last I had heard. In the end, it's honestly just how someone chooses to build. Especially since, to make any sort of good DD build, you'd effectively need to kick out one of the three classes you can mechanically have, in order to take Bard/Sorceror, even if it's only a level or two. So atop the DD levels, you'd only really have room for a single other class if you so chose. I've seen builds people make that easily wreck DD builds on the server, after all. DDs are far from all powerful. Haha!
Thing with this is that base RDD already gets pretty much all of that in just the 10 base level span. The server already had it nerfed, but extended the ability to get the full benefits. But to do so, you'd need to sink HEAVILY into the class, with epic levels. You'd effectively abolish any other class in epic levels just to get said bonuses, after all.
Yeah, and it's better then what you get by abolishing other epic levels. That's the point. Higher ac, slightly less AB sometimes, more hp, immunities, mobility, it has it all and no downsides.
Terallis wrote:
Additionally, for those who just dip for slight strength bonuses, I'm fairly certain that's one of the classes that ISN'T allowed for dumping due to what it does. At least last I had heard.
You can dip anything. Lots of people dip rdd 4 because it's absurdly good. Fight 1 bard 25 rdd 4 is super crazy good.
Terallis wrote:
In the end, it's honestly just how someone chooses to build. Especially since, to make any sort of good DD build, you'd effectively need to kick out one of the three classes you can mechanically have, in order to take Bard/Sorceror, even if it's only a level or two. So atop the DD levels, you'd only really have room for a single other class if you so chose. I've seen builds people make that easily wreck DD builds on the server, after all. DDs are far from all powerful. Haha!
You have to 'kick out' one of the other three classes you can have to do other things; I addressed this. Tumble tanks already have to do this to get tumble so it's not comparable, except for them, their third class option HAS to be a tumble class, whereas the bard RDD can do whatever.
Let's not forget the "new RDD hotness build" as you say it is dispellable with lesser dispel.
Otherwise, I think DD is now just almost up to other STR builds, like WM's. I don't think it's OP, its... rightly powered. There are some classes that are underpowered... *coughs* BG, for example, but... op? No, I don't think so. I'd say my own DD vs my own WM it would be a close match, depending on who got the 20's faster.
The extra critical mod of a WM is worth FAR more than 2 or 3 dev crit DC. That's assuming you take Dev Crit, as many don't. doing 1 1/2 times the damage with a x2 weapon is pretty amazing. Dev crit on most people in pvp is... well, if they're prepared? Mostly not gonna happen except on a really lucky roll.
Most DD's have more than 3 AB below the best WM builds btw. Most don't break 45 AB, and those that have that crazy 50+ gave up a lot to do that. Just like anyone who sacrifices everything for one ability.
I made a DD to see if they were in deed op now... I can honestly say, nope. They have weaknesses, lots of them, but, some of their strong suit was indeed improved. They're a strong melee fighter, but, I'd really have to say a WM will still do far more damage, which is what they're made for.
They can be well rounded, and very useful sure, but overpowered? Hardly. There's plenty of other builds that can destroy them easily. Paladin, cleric, shifter, WM... etc.
Let's not forget the "new RDD hotness build" as you say it is dispellable with lesser dispel.
Not that big of an issue given how high their numbers are. Less of an issue as breach effects strip everyone equally. The dispel thing is more of a pve nuisance.
That Guy wrote:
Otherwise, I think DD is now just almost up to other STR builds, like WM's. I don't think it's OP, its... rightly powered. There are some classes that are underpowered... *coughs* BG, for example, but... op? No, I don't think so. I'd say my own DD vs my own WM it would be a close match, depending on who got the 20's faster.
Please show some numbers explaining how substantially higher ac (equivalent to expertise on all the time), equal to or slightly lesser ab, actual class abilities, and free immunities is comparable.
That Guy wrote:
The extra critical mod of a WM is worth FAR more than 2 or 3 dev crit DC. That's assuming you take Dev Crit, as many don't. doing 1 1/2 times the damage with a x2 weapon is pretty amazing. Dev crit on most people in pvp is... well, if they're prepared? Mostly not gonna happen except on a really lucky roll.
I disagree. If you hit and if you crit you do 50% more damage, but considering RDD's can hit 50 strength, and thus get some free damage already, and it's a lot more likely that fort save will be failed, because it's HARD to gear to 44ish fort to be immune to that, getting 37ish is already rough for most classes.
I said it was arguable and it is. If I could take -1 crit mod for +3 dev ac on a WM I would.
That Guy wrote:
Most DD's have more than 3 below the best WM builds btw. Most don't break 45 AB, and those that have that crazy 50+ gave up a lot to do that. Just like anyone who sacrifices everything for one ability.
Don't know what to tell you here other then that really isn't the case. 10 rdd is 3 less ab then wm, and you get 4 ab from the 8 str you get. WM gets 3 if you go 18 wm and 3 more over RDD pre-epic, so you're only ever so slightly behind.
Not to mention you can get feats that do things along the way.
That Guy wrote:
I made a DD to see if they were in deed op now... I can honestly say, nope. They have weaknesses, lots of them, but, some of their strong suit was indeed improved. They're a strong melee fighter, but, I'd really have to say a WM will still do far more damage, which is what they're made for.
It's made everything else redundant. Unlike the other str builds, which each have some kind of weakness, RDD doesn't. Highest ac, only a bit short in the AB department, but a TON of other freebies AND saves AND hp. It's just literally better.
That Guy wrote:
They can be well rounded, and very useful sure, but overpowered? Hardly. There's plenty of other builds that can destroy them easily. Paladin, cleric, shifter, WM... etc.
It's demonstrably better then every other str build in all cases but one part of one case; AB on a pure WM and SLIGHTLY less damage. It's overpowered as it made all other str builds redundant as it's miles above every other str build in every other category.
It's the reason I didn't build my RDD yet, I feel it's too strong.
4 RDD always had +1 AC and +4 STR, that wasn't changed. The reason you don't see that for things like spellswords is because there are a lot better options, namely 4 Fighter. So yeah, you always got those bonuses so really there is nothing different there.
And you can 'dump' DD, you just better RP your classes haha. It's like trying to dump PM, basically. It's cause at DD (PM) 1 you are already doing a ritual that alters your body in some way (ie you develop some scales to account for the +1 AC). The farther you go, the more changes that develop.
You also give up a lot of flexibility in making a DD, both mechanically and RP. You have the 'stigma' of being a DD, not to mention you loose a lot of features. A STR WM is still better than a DD, because the DD doesn't get all the crit increasing goodies a STR WM gets. That is not to say a STR DD is not formidable, but it doesn't bypass WM as much as you think.
A stock STR WM will rock 51 AB with only a +5 weapon and full buffed STR of 38; a RDD with 34 STR buffed to 46 and a +5 Weapon is only 48 AB (granted with 4 more average damage... but then don't forget the WM also gets +6 damage from Epic Weapon Spec so that no longer matters). I did that comparison with no Great Strength feats in either build, and not accounting for spells that both have 100% identical access to. Plus a WM gets all those tasty crits; VS crit immune foes they are still rocking similar damage but the WM has higher AB still.
They both still have their places, but DD doesn't completely replace STR WM. DD is a lot stronger than it used to be, definitely, and it can certainly trash some mobs, but drop it's buffs and it becomes sad. Loosing Imp Invis is really painful, as is your STR and CON buffs. Of course you get +6 base CON which is really nice and +5 base AC, which balances things out a lot. DDs look to be a lot about survival, which is a really awesome niche when you think about it. Could it need tweaking? Time will definitely tell.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
You are allowed to dump DD for the +4 Str. There even are builds advertising it in the fishing forum.
Sadly, I like Lawful DDs, meaning I usually think about going sory, which makes the build so much worse. But I have to agree with Commie. 18 DD gets you a lot of stuff. Then two levels are Bard for almost every build. Six if you want a PrC. That leaves 6 PrC levels or 10 Base Class levels. That is really, really strong. The "cookie-cutter" Fighter10/2Bard/18DD is good, going for WM is good. Even a tank KC build hits pretty hard and well, actually. Which two classes would you really want to take? You have one tumbledump already, that also gets UMD and spellcraft. You have disc. Bard is one of the best dump classes, so having to go Bard is not a drawback. Maybe if you go Sorc, but even a Lawful Dragon can have Neutral DDs.
Giving the 4 Str in the end to total to 8 is a bit too much in my opinion. Yes, because of Cha bonuses you will likely be dispellabe, but otherwise, DD makes a really strong tank that also can go into melee and deals a lot of damage. Yes, DDs will likely die to a good mage, and dex WMs, but apart from that, I don't see what really screws them over so much. I mean, I liked the idea of buffing epic DDs, but this really seems like a very strong buff.
You are allowed to dump DD for the +4 Str. There even are builds advertising it in the fishing forum.
No you are not. You are required to play the character as having them.
Just because they are in an OOC build forum does not mean that you can pretend they are not a thing. Taking 1 DD means you have done some kind of ritual to enhance your characters bloodline. If DMs catch you not RPing that, they will call foul on you.
Keep in mind the build forum is just a guide, every build in there expects you to RP your stats and classes and race and everything still.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
You also give up a lot of flexibility in making a DD, both mechanically and RP. You have the 'stigma' of being a DD, not to mention you loose a lot of features. A STR WM is still better than a DD, because the DD doesn't get all the crit increasing goodies a STR WM gets. That is not to say a STR DD is not formidable, but it doesn't bypass WM as much as you think.
A stock STR WM will rock 51 AB with only a +5 weapon and full buffed STR of 38; a RDD with 34 STR buffed to 46 and a +5 Weapon is only 48 AB (granted with 4 more average damage... but then don't forget the WM also gets +6 damage from Epic Weapon Spec so that no longer matters). I did that comparison with no Great Strength feats in either build, and not accounting for spells that both have 100% identical access to. Plus a WM gets all those tasty crits; VS crit immune foes they are still rocking similar damage but the WM has higher AB still.
I'd trade 3 ab for 5 always on ac any day. It's not even a question.
Not to mention RDD gets actual class features alongside 4 free ab whereas WM gets 3 ab as class features.
edit; standard 'new hotness' rdd gets epic weapon spec.
You have to RP the 1 Ranger in 19Wiz/1Ran as well. You are allowed to dip into it, but you have to play it. That is the same for any other class you "dump" into. Maybe my definition of dump is wrong. For me, dumping is going into a class to get a few of the abilites. As soon as you have one level of anything you have to RP it. Same with 1 Bard, same with 1 rogue, 4 Fighter for WS/EWS.
You have to RP the 1 Ranger in 19Wiz/1Ran as well. You are allowed to dip into it, but you have to play it. That is the same for any other class you "dump" into. Maybe my definition of dump is wrong. For me, dumping is going into a class to get a few of the abilites. As soon as you have one level of anything you have to RP it. Same with 1 Bard, same with 1 rogue, 4 Fighter for WS/EWS.
Anywho I said this is for mechanical discussion not RP discussion.
buff strength weapon masters and barbarians rather then nerfing rdd barb would be fine if rage had no cooldown could give wm the same sort of options assassin or monk get from widgets but for ki strike
In the microcosm of STR builds only RDD is the outlier in power, and I don't think that's a bad thing, as others have stated RDD is a good baseline to where other strength builds should be aiming in regards to buffs. The huge downside to RDD is that it really does have a pain in the ass level requirement, 10/2/18 is the only viable build I've seen of the new RDD, I leave out the 4 lvl +1 5abfor4lvls cheese that's been around for ever because it's not new. I've been working on 12 rdd variants but haven't quite come to anything.
I'd like to see other classes get the level of love RDD got, at least as far as str goes.
Now outside of the STR microcosm RDD is a good build, but still isn't going to beat the top end dexers.
Joined: 23 Sep 2012 Location: Western Australia (+8 GMT)
Akhlys wrote:
buff strength weapon masters and barbarians rather then nerfing rdd barb would be fine if rage had no cooldown could give wm the same sort of options assassin or monk get from widgets but for ki strike
WMs already can get custom ki powers, it just needs to be RPd and requested as opposed to getting them as a default power.
_________________ Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand
buff strength weapon masters and barbarians rather then nerfing rdd barb would be fine if rage had no cooldown could give wm the same sort of options assassin or monk get from widgets but for ki strike
WMs already can get custom ki powers, it just needs to be RPd and requested as opposed to getting them as a default power.
okay and? locking away power behind requests doesnt buff a class
Joined: 23 Sep 2012 Location: Western Australia (+8 GMT)
OpenTheRift wrote:
What are the WM ki requestables? Why aren't they part of the class benefits?
Elemental damage is the only one I know of, there were more but I don't know the specifics of those. As for the reasons they're locked away, maybe because it's not an innate ability they get just by being a WM. It has to be developed and refined, hence RP and request.
_________________ Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand
That makes sense, but that's what levels are for in general, look at assassin. It's best widget skills are honed by taking 15, and 18 levels of assassin.
You are allowed to dump DD for the +4 Str. There even are builds advertising it in the fishing forum.
No you are not. You are required to play the character as having them.
Show where this is written.
RDD is not a divine class. You can even make a LG red dragon disciple paladin and nobody will stop you.
Think again. We don't even do DD color changes without confirming that the character falls under the rules. If I catch a paladin LG red dragon disciple then they are getting fallen or an alignment shift.
buff strength weapon masters and barbarians rather then nerfing rdd barb would be fine if rage had no cooldown could give wm the same sort of options assassin or monk get from widgets but for ki strike
WMs already can get custom ki powers, it just needs to be RPd and requested as opposed to getting them as a default power.
While this is true I do not think that requests should be accounted for when considering the base strength of a class.
Joined: 17 Oct 2011 Location: The Hall of the Mountain King
Akhlys wrote:
buff strength weapon masters and barbarians rather then nerfing rdd barb would be fine if rage had no cooldown could give wm the same sort of options assassin or monk get from widgets but for ki strike
You forgot to mention rangers as well!
_________________ I am not weird, I am limited edition
buff strength weapon masters and barbarians rather then nerfing rdd barb would be fine if rage had no cooldown could give wm the same sort of options assassin or monk get from widgets but for ki strike
WMs already can get custom ki powers, it just needs to be RPd and requested as opposed to getting them as a default power.
Can you tell me what these powers are, so that I can request them? Or are they taught only? Then who will teach my WM?
In order to request something, I need to know what to request. The same is with some "high level SD abilities" I heard of. If they are taught only, and considered part of balance, everyone should teach them to everyone. If they could, in theory, be learned alone, then I need to know what RP to do in order to request them.
Let's play a little game. I'll think of an ability, and you send me the RP for getting this WM ability via PM. That's all the information you will get.
This whole idea ties in with using them to determine balance. If they are "easily" requestable, like maybe MG, then they can be part of balance, but something where you don't even know what they are or how to request them, it can't be balance. an extra trick for the... I heard of two people who have these. One on a player who does not play anymore, and one on a character who, as far as I know, is not around. So both potential teachers are not an option. The one active WM who does WM RP I know of (Elwyn) does not even know the abilities.
I think what commie meant is that I can make a Paladin, and as long as I do not change colorsm he is considered a red.
In the microcosm of STR builds only RDD is the outlier in power, and I don't think that's a bad thing, as others have stated RDD is a good baseline to where other strength builds should be aiming in regards to buffs. The huge downside to RDD is that it really does have a pain in the ass level requirement, 10/2/18 is the only viable build I've seen of the new RDD, I leave out the 4 lvl +1 5abfor4lvls cheese that's been around for ever because it's not new. I've been working on 12 rdd variants but haven't quite come to anything.
I'd like to see other classes get the level of love RDD got, at least as far as str goes.
Now outside of the STR microcosm RDD is a good build, but still isn't going to beat the top end dexers.
i would like to see that as well, but the issue is buffing WM means the 13/10/7 build gets the buffs as well, unless they changes come late in the WM class spread (13+).
I would rather see that as well. but as it stands I don't think WM can get changes w/o hak updates, so that's where we are.
buff strength weapon masters and barbarians rather then nerfing rdd barb would be fine if rage had no cooldown could give wm the same sort of options assassin or monk get from widgets but for ki strike
WMs already can get custom ki powers, it just needs to be RPd and requested as opposed to getting them as a default power.
Can you tell me what these powers are, so that I can request them? Or are they taught only? Then who will teach my WM?
In order to request something, I need to know what to request. The same is with some "high level SD abilities" I heard of. If they are taught only, and considered part of balance, everyone should teach them to everyone. If they could, in theory, be learned alone, then I need to know what RP to do in order to request them.
Let's play a little game. I'll think of an ability, and you send me the RP for getting this WM ability via PM. That's all the information you will get.
This whole idea ties in with using them to determine balance. If they are "easily" requestable, like maybe MG, then they can be part of balance, but something where you don't even know what they are or how to request them, it can't be balance. an extra trick for the... I heard of two people who have these. One on a player who does not play anymore, and one on a character who, as far as I know, is not around. So both potential teachers are not an option. The one active WM who does WM RP I know of (Elwyn) does not even know the abilities.
I think what commie meant is that I can make a Paladin, and as long as I do not change colorsm he is considered a red.
Indeed.
Follow a deity of redemption and have the RDD rituals as a part of your background. Never violate your oaths after taking them. No reason to fall.
In the microcosm of STR builds only RDD is the outlier in power, and I don't think that's a bad thing, as others have stated RDD is a good baseline to where other strength builds should be aiming in regards to buffs. The huge downside to RDD is that it really does have a pain in the ass level requirement, 10/2/18 is the only viable build I've seen of the new RDD, I leave out the 4 lvl +1 5abfor4lvls cheese that's been around for ever because it's not new. I've been working on 12 rdd variants but haven't quite come to anything.
I'd like to see other classes get the level of love RDD got, at least as far as str goes.
Now outside of the STR microcosm RDD is a good build, but still isn't going to beat the top end dexers.
i would like to see that as well, but the issue is buffing WM means the 13/10/7 build gets the buffs as well, unless they changes come late in the WM class spread (13+).
I would rather see that as well. but as it stands I don't think WM can get changes w/o hak updates, so that's where we are.
make the buffs use strength modifier for any sort of formula and it wont be an issue for dex wm regardless of how many levels they have
Oh, another benefit, free skill points/int over WM. Because it gets 2 int, you can sneak by with a lower starting int score (11 not 13, or more realistically 12 starting bumping it to 14 via rdd) and still get things like expertise/IKD, allocating more starting attributes to con/str/dex.
To summarize;
18 RDD gives up 3 to hit over WM for;
Immunity to an element which may include immunity to harm. Permanent non-epic rage stat bonus's, or more then that. SR. Flight. Better/Different Dev Crit (Better at best, different at worst) 5 AC. More damage due to more strength. 20 odd skill points depending on when you take your RDD. Feat freedom due to RDD not requiring several actually useless feats. 100 ish HP (d12 HD in the end and +6 con). 4 base fort save (and free fort from con). Easier to stat because of free int and no feat requirements that mandate a dex/int floor.
Disadvantages; Can be dispelled by lower-level dispels. Loses 3 to hit over WM May have some RP requirements but is not a divine class and you cannot fall, additionally you can request an alignment-neutral dragon type and not deal with anything basically.
It's not so much that it's overpowered, which I believe it is on it's own, it's that it also literally beats the hell out of the previous best strength build, which in turn was already far far better then the other strength builds. It rendered all other strength builds utterly redundant.
Follow a deity of redemption and have the RDD rituals as a part of your background. Never violate your oaths after taking them. No reason to fall.
And in order to even do that, you would need the DMs to approve an alignment change to take your character from LN at best (if we are talking a LE dragon, which means your char would have to be LN/LE/NE) to LG. After already taking DD levels. DD levels that bring you closer to being the true nature of your draconic ancestor. The DMs would require you to drop your DD levels if you wanted to be a paladin, and dropping DD levels is incredibly difficult. Once you are a DD you are kinda stuck always having DD unless you go through a lot of effort (same with a PM). DD is a huge stigma.
You simply can't be an evil DD and be a Paladin. I mean you can, but any DM that catches you is going to Fall you like Mav said. No if you are talking something different than that (I'm assuming cause before the talk was of a RDD Paladin), then nevermind haha. I mean the alternative would be making a special character request, but I see that as difficult to pass by the DMs.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
Follow a deity of redemption and have the RDD rituals as a part of your background. Never violate your oaths after taking them. No reason to fall.
And in order to even do that, you would need the DMs to approve an alignment change to take your character from LN at best (if we are talking a LE dragon, which means your char would have to be LN/LE/NE) to LG. After already taking DD levels. DD levels that bring you closer to being the true nature of your draconic ancestor. The DMs would require you to drop your DD levels if you wanted to be a paladin, and dropping DD levels is incredibly difficult. Once you are a DD you are kinda stuck always having DD unless you go through a lot of effort (same with a PM). DD is a huge stigma.
You simply can't be an evil DD and be a Paladin. I mean you can, but any DM that catches you is going to Fall you like Mav said. No if you are talking something different than that (I'm assuming cause before the talk was of a RDD Paladin), then nevermind haha. I mean the alternative would be making a special character request, but I see that as difficult to pass by the DMs.
No. You make a rdd and get some paly levels at some point. Never request a change. Stay red; red LG paladin. Red is the system default that's why i used it as an example. You get wings for free when you get the right level and can get horns at the head changer.
In terms of the requestable Ki abilities, I don't even know all of them, if most of them myself. I think that was one of the things we were trying to sort through in terms of what to release to the public but it's a bit hard to go hunting for files that are seldom named in any coherent, or organized way. Unfortunately it's one of those things that will take a bit of a sit down, as with all the other custom things up for review.
And yes, the DMs do take a lot of care in maintaining that the RDDs and dragonkin characters are being played accurately. It's a thing that has come up quite often in the past, and obviously in recent times as more and more people find appeal in the class.
As for the RDD buffs in general being OP compared to other STR builds, once again Im balance ignorant! I leave this discussion in the hands of those better suited to it, especially Mav who was the genius behind most if not all of it. I personally find it makes RDD comparable as opposed to OP, but then again, I'm not the one with the most knowledgeable opinion. I'm basically just here to say, we're paying attention!
As for the RDD buffs in general being OP compared to other STR builds, once again Im balance ignorant! I leave this discussion in the hands of those better suited to it, especially Mav who was the genius behind most if not all of it. I personally find it makes RDD comparable as opposed to OP, but then again, I'm not the one with the most knowledgeable opinion. I'm basically just here to say, we're paying attention!
Well, what would you say, looking at the pros and cons of RDD over other strength builds, it is comparable to?
I isolated it to builds of a -stat- not overall to show how it being as good as it is diminishes everything else in the same vein, which is why I wanted to bring it up as a matter of concern.
in my opinion it is still quite possible to make better rangers and weapon masters than the standard RDD 10/2/18, but these require a solid knowledge of building and how to min-max a build.
I think that we should do a little buffing of others and tapering of RDD to be honest. Big stats is RDD's thing, which is fine bug numbers are fun, but I think that other str builds could use a bit more attention and not suffer so much under the tyranny of dex.
Joined: 23 Sep 2012 Location: Western Australia (+8 GMT)
SamTheGiantSlayer wrote:
In terms of the requestable Ki abilities, I don't even know all of them, if most of them myself. I think that was one of the things we were trying to sort through in terms of what to release to the public but it's a bit hard to go hunting for files that are seldom named in any coherent, or organized way. Unfortunately it's one of those things that will take a bit of a sit down, as with all the other custom things up for review.
And yes, the DMs do take a lot of care in maintaining that the RDDs and dragonkin characters are being played accurately. It's a thing that has come up quite often in the past, and obviously in recent times as more and more people find appeal in the class.
As for the RDD buffs in general being OP compared to other STR builds, once again Im balance ignorant! I leave this discussion in the hands of those better suited to it, especially Mav who was the genius behind most if not all of it. I personally find it makes RDD comparable as opposed to OP, but then again, I'm not the one with the most knowledgeable opinion. I'm basically just here to say, we're paying attention!
I know Malatril's ability was named Sparks of Conviction, or something along those lines. Nevaeh had one that had the same kind of name but used a different element; fire, I think.
_________________ Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand
If we're only looking at the mechanical ramifications of this then yes, you could have RDD/pally. If a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his ass a-hoppin', either. We shouldn't look at this from a purely mechanical standpoint because the server is not run on a purely mechanical basis. Just because it can be done doesn't mean that it is within the established rules to which you agreed when you logged in. Not getting caught breaking the law is not the same as not breaking it.
If we're only looking at the mechanical ramifications of this then yes, you could have RDD/pally. If a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his ass a-hoppin', either. We shouldn't look at this from a purely mechanical standpoint because the server is not run on a purely mechanical basis. Just because it can be done doesn't mean that it is within the established rules to which you agreed when you logged in. Not getting caught breaking the law is not the same as not breaking it.
that's fine, im just using the LG RDD to illustrate that you arn't beholden to the same RP standards as some other classes.
but that's not the point here, point is that you get all this stuff and don't give up anything but at most 3 ab mechanically.
that's fine, im just using the LG RDD to illustrate that you arn't beholden to the same RP standards as some other classes.
This is absolutely incorrect. Dragon Disciple is one of the most RP-heavy classes. And there are strict rules about it. There's a whole topic for it.
_________________
Login: The Copper Queen Cromlech - The Best Copper This Side of Ruathym Zelly Cys'dina - The Wounded Soul, Also Merchant Aelynthi Nor'alei - The Bubbly Winged Elf
But you ARE beholden to it. From the stickied post regarding Dragon Disciple lore:
Quote:
On Amia, when a character -chooses- the path of the Dragon Disciple, they undergo emmense changes to their psyche as well as their physical being. Note my use of the term "chooses." Discipleship implies dedication and hence cannot simply "happen on accident."
That right there tells you all you have to know. They are, in fact, beholden to it the minute they opt to take the class because it is a conscious decision. To knowingly choose the red dragon disciple path is to choose something diametrically opposed to what a paladin vis a vis both the Law <-> Chaos and Good <-> Evil chart. You're either a non-chromatic paladin DD or you're a chromatic non-paladin. To play it any other way approaches football bat territory. Now of course you could be a paladin with chromatic blood but you don't seek to unlock the powers afforded and that would certainly make for some compelling roleplay.
As to bringing balance one should not approach from the crab mentality of dragging others down to a certain level but should instead seek to elevate others. Don't complain about how much more one has than yourself but figure out how to elevate yourself. Even then not all things will be equal and that's alright.
Follow a deity of redemption and have the RDD rituals as a part of your background. Never violate your oaths after taking them. No reason to fall.
And in order to even do that, you would need the DMs to approve an alignment change to take your character from LN at best (if we are talking a LE dragon, which means your char would have to be LN/LE/NE) to LG. After already taking DD levels. DD levels that bring you closer to being the true nature of your draconic ancestor. The DMs would require you to drop your DD levels if you wanted to be a paladin, and dropping DD levels is incredibly difficult. Once you are a DD you are kinda stuck always having DD unless you go through a lot of effort (same with a PM). DD is a huge stigma.
You simply can't be an evil DD and be a Paladin. I mean you can, but any DM that catches you is going to Fall you like Mav said. No if you are talking something different than that (I'm assuming cause before the talk was of a RDD Paladin), then nevermind haha. I mean the alternative would be making a special character request, but I see that as difficult to pass by the DMs.
No. You make a rdd and get some paly levels at some point. Never request a change. Stay red; red LG paladin. Red is the system default that's why i used it as an example. You get wings for free when you get the right level and can get horns at the head changer.
This is stupid scummy. Don't do this.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
While I did think DD needed some love, when it got it I'll admit I thought it a bit overmuch myself. I think +8 str is fine, but hooking +6 AC, +6 con (?!) and free 32 SR onto it all makes it a bit of an ubermensch in a box.
It wouldn't be so bad if you had to go the full 20 to get most of that above (and thus miss out on say - skill dumping), but you don't, only 18.
18 DD now let's you make some rather nice offensive AND defensive raw beatstick builds that are purely non-circumstantial (unlike pretty much all of it's peers who have to choose one or the other and even then, offense [crits, sneaks] is most likely useless against huge portions of content).
I'd think it more balanced if all those goodies mentioned above came at DD 20 or were toned down a notch. That +6 con is really a lot imo.
_________________ Rashad the Azure, Zakharan Merchant-lord Most Fair and Master of the Desert Wind Loremaster Tukson Devers, Oghmanyte Wrestler of Knowledge and Child of the Passive Voice
(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)
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