This is neither a flame nor a derogatory post. It is not an attack. It is merely a suggestion from a “new set of eyes”.

Have been playing an Underdark character (Drow) for approximately a week, and would like to offer my observations, for what they are worth…

I have heard many words used in the last week about the current state of the Underdark. Words like “resurgence,” “revitalized,” “coming back,” “new faces again,” and others. Admittedly, my perception may be flawed, but it seems from conversation that it is a cyclical issue; meaning that there will be an influx, then an exodus or seeming loss of interest, and eventually an influx, rinse and repeat.

Obviously, individuals will be quitting, switching, and having a myriad of reasons for leaving off their Underdark characters. However, from my own experiences over the course of the week, I believe that there is a very simple thing that could be done to eliminate at least some of the “departures” from the mix.

Put simply, “Educate and Integrate” new players and their characters, as opposed to “Imposing Will and Establishing Pecking Order”. If that means a bit of OOC tells and directing people to the Forums to posts that will prove valuable, then it is certainly worth it.

The ingame roleplaying that I have experienced in the Underdark has ranged from barely passable as roleplaying to truly outstanding (and tending far more often towards outstanding). I am very thick-skinned, however, and can see where some might see it in a different light (to include possibly as bullying).

I realize the importance of not having new characters completely disrupt, derail, or ignore established roleplaying hierarchies, and standards and expectations. Just the same, I know utilizing only “tough love” and “lump it or leave it” approaches in ensuring that people are aware of such hierarchies, and standards and expectations, will very likely turn off at least some individuals—leaving the Underdark with less active characters and a less rich experience for all involved. Do not think for 1 second that I do not feel that there is absolutely a time and a place for those two approaches, however, just that immediately out of the gates may not quite be that time and place.

An “Educate and Integrate” approach could lead to a larger population of characters, more and better roleplaying and roleplaying opportunities, and much more fun for all involved. At the same time, it could prove to be a total bust—but is it something worth considering, or is the status quo that immutable?

As an aside, “Initial Leveling in the Underdark is terrible”? On the contrary, I have been pleasantly surprised to find that it is a very well-designed and laid out setup—with some hard lumps coming for those venturing into areas they are not quite ready for, but definitely not unreasonable design or progression.

Not sure who you are so I'm not sure if I've run into you, but that's pretty much exactly what we're trying to do with the Obsidian Vanguard. In almost every way. So that means you probably haven't run into us much, which is kind of a shame (we do have a fair few members but our timezones are weird and thus limited). Anyway, so here's what we've been trying to do.

1. We're playing as non-hardline-as-reasonably-possible drow, by having our characters take up such a policy in order to attract as many members as possible (including having some of our members appeal to more orthodox characters). It's possible to push their berserk buttons right away, but we will go out of our way to make sure relations are smooth and everyone gets along. So this generally makes it easier for people who want to play unusual drow, or people who don't know much about the incredible amount of lore involved. And people who don't want to play drow (of which there is few, but some!)

2. A few of us have made low-level alts for the express purpose of helping other players level. We're working on creating some sort of support network to make it generally easier. I think your comments on the leveling difficulty are somewhat subjective--I hear people say it's easy, some say it's not worth the effort compared to hunting on the surface. I like the zones, but I do have some trouble with them, especially in small groups (1-2).

Quite a few experienced drow players know to drop a tell or some OOC guidance when it's clear they're dealing with a new player. Sometimes it doesn't happen, but for my part I do my best.

The sort of cycle is going to happen regardless of our policies though. Because there aren't that many of us, if one or a few of us gets distracted by real life or events concerning alts, the effect is going to be noticeable. We are trying though. And the concern is appreciated, because it means you actually care about Underdark RP. And that's nothing but positive.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

When you log in your drow one of the first things you should do is check the player list and see if there is anybody on that you recognize as an Underdark drow and ask if there is allready a "drow group" If there is they will invite you. Generally when there is a few drow on there is a group. This group will give feedback and information you may need ocly to be able to integrate into the society.

One of the most important aspects of playing a drow...KNOW YOUR LORE!!!
If you have questions the hard core drow may be outwardly seeming mean, nasty...Well drowlike ICLY but in the chat channel they will be trying to help you generally in a nice manner.

A lot of problems happen when a new player comes in and has only read snippets of lore and think immediately that they can walk in with a level 2 character and can demand the respect of characters that have been played in the Amian underdark for years. Part of knowing your lore is that every drow regardless of who they want their character to be starts out weak and nameless on the server. Anyone that is currently a matron has done a lot of roleplay to get to that position. Any character that currently holds a title in the Amian UD has done the roleplay to get that title. This roleplay includes bowing, grovelling and basic boot licking of those in higher rank than they are until they either plot behind their backs or challenge them outright.

There will be times your character gets whipped by a matron or Yath. There may be times if you play a stealth build that another drow may notice you following them and kill your character because they want to let you know they know your there.

Drow are evil, nasty rat bastards...every one of them are. The players are not though. It is one of the reasons why we generally all end up in a "Drow Party" So that we can talk with eachother and help eachother build and develope our characters.

Don't be afraid to ask the drow players questions. Most of the players want to help you and want you to enjoy the role play.

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"Toss me...I cannot jump the distance. You will have to toss me." -Gimli

I attempt this with every drow character I encounter. I have accepted drow characters that a “normal” Lolthite would banish or sacrifice. I have accepted other races as servants to the House (this is a high honor in Lolthite society). It is only when the character does something so outrageous that there is just no way to save them without opening up the opportunity for another drow to banish mine or worse have her sacrificed that I have to act in a manner that pissed off the player. I am /not/ integrating a character who can’t even manage to be polite or takes offence at every little thing my characters says.

It is not the status quo, it is accepted lore of the hierarchy that its seems you are trying to change. I am sorry but its Lolthites, Selvetarms then Kiaransalees. Months and years of role play are not going to simply go away so players can have an easier time of it.

Please note the posts in the PC Stories and Character Desc’s under Evil, Wicked, Mean and Nasty: Life as a Lolthite Priestess. I try and give out info on Lolthite drow life to help players. Also there are general guidelines OOCly in the Amia Wiki (I’ll add the location as soon as the wiki comes back up)

Also, ICly there are books in the Sorcere Library explaining general drow words that some players like to use and the drow hierarchy, along with poetry and the general Lolthite viewpoint. AND talk to characters, you can find out a lot and it’s more fun that way.

• I expect that when new Lolthite, Selvetarm or Kiaransalee characters show up that the player has taken the time to know a bit before coming in.
• I expect that the player should know that each and every drow character with any kind of power currently in Edonil has had to claw, bow and backstab their way to their current position. I expect that if a player has a question they will ask in party – we try to get everyone in party so that the players know it’s only the characters that are evil, wicked, mean and nasty not the players – or in a Tell.
• I expect that I shouldn’t have to tell you in Tells how to play your character – it’d be rude I would think.
• I expect that every drow, even Ghaunadaur, Vhaeraun and Eilistraee understand that the priestesses of Lolth have no qualms demonstrating their power over others in a physical fashion.
• I expect that if you push the character that you won’t be upset when the character pushes back.
• I expect you to know that just because you say you are a matron mother doesn’t mean you will be a) believed and b) not have to gain power just like everyone else.

What other players can expect from me is that I play my drow priestess as the evil only-looking-for-ways-to-prove-she-deserves-the-power-Lolth-gives-her Yathrin she is. She can never look weak so when your female drow, with no rank in Edonil takes offence to being called a “female” when in actuality it’s said because my drow doesn’t know whom you are. And if a female tells my Yathrin “go vith your spider” in Lolths Temple…..well, my Yathrin has no choice to prove to Lolth that she is the more powerful – at your characters expense. (That would be like going to a bar, finding the biggest guy there and throwing your drink on him and thinking he won’t throw you through the window. BTW what should have happened is that the character be sacrificed as a heretic…but I realized the player was new so I had my priestess allow the male to take the body to be raised. So I was being really nice. And now I have to deal with my priestess looking like she’s weak by allowing the character to continue to live.)

Unlike many surface cities where not knowing the politics doesn’t get you whipped or possibly killed, Edonil is currently run as a Lolthite city. The Priestesses in charge get to enforce rules and they deal out consequences that you may not like. This is not to say that input from other players or characters is ignored, it is very welcomed. We want you to come in and have fun. Believe me when I say that Edonil is much more relaxed than Ultrinnan. In Ultrinnan Kiaransaless were not allowed. It took many months and a lot of RP for Aly’isgar and Vlos to make Kiaransaless something useful for the Lolthites so that the idol has a place in the Temple.

Oh and I find this very interesting since myself and another player offered to help a new player with lore via PM’s and it was very unwelcome. So…..

My advice is always: Be very polite until you get the lay of the land.

And finally, please don't hesitate to ask, I'm always happy to try and help out.

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Ari'aerath Dlues'athsha ~ Silver Singer with the Bow of the Sun
Clarette Feohn ~ Magic is Art.
Victoria Marrs ~ "I have an herb for that."

Of course the "Established Pecking Order" that is gained trough IC RP in the underdark, only exsists to interfere with new players who arrive with only a minimum of lore and none that specifically applies to Amia itself.

As far as I'm aware, most of this event and all things that sprung from it were handled IC, and all OOC questions asked were answered. I for one prefer to teach new players IC'ly as it provides for RP. However, running blindly into a situation without even a basic knowledge of what's going on is silly.

I also appreciate your assessment of all of our players general role-playing ability, you reap what you sow, IC in is IC out. You got to interact with players and toon's who have spent months and even years of IC RP and then with your own toon's minutes of RP get to evaluate what's wrong, thanks.

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Thine taste in horrid footwear not withstanding, I did not say that thou were in fact an idiot, I merely implied that such things were self evident.

-Krrja

This is a cyclic thing.

This post comes up about...every six months.

My advice, find people /you enjoy/ RPing with. If others see you having fun, they'll join. The more that join, the more fun you'll have. If you're not 100% lore accurate, no one really cares,because being 100% accurate simply isn't possible. Aim for the most people having the most fun possible.

In before this turns into a giant frigging flamefest like it aaaalways does.

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Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

Post is not tuned to a specific event. In fact, the one Fierene references was not even an issue--immediately afterwards, cleared up the points/counterpoints and what each of us had seen or perceived. Felt it was clearly towards the "Outstanding" and "Educate" portion, once all was said and done.

Lots of different things tend to happen in a week...heh

As for (D&D/Forgotten Realms) Drow lore and familiarity, well, would rate myself (outside of the Drow language stuff) as very familiar. The lack of knowledge comes with respect to IC/ingame familiarity with Amia Drow--which is where the educate/integrate portion was directed towards. There are some very good posts that can be referenced in the Forums, but there are tremendous gaps, as well, when it comes to politics and state of areas/activities. My apologies if that did not come across in the initial post.

Ignorance can only be removed through education. Ignorance, of course, meaning lack of information and knowledge, not stupidity, etc.

Edit (to include): As far as the "pecking order" reference made by Bravo21...solid use of transparent sarcasm. But, I was alluding to "kill immediately to prove 'superiority'" and not to RP'd incidents that go sour, which is always a possibility with Drow/evil. Thanks for allowing me to reinforce my point (no sarcasm intended), as the somewhat less-than-subtle difference between the two is what I was trying to convey--and may have failed to adequately do so, originally.

Importance? New characters should have just as much opportunity to do whatever in reolpla as the person who's been here for years.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

I agree with Tormaks point.

And if your necromancer summons an undead in front of a member of the Eternal Order to disrupt, derail or ignore established RP hierarchies, standards and expectations you can't be OOCly upset when they apply the IC consequences to your IC actions.

Or if your level 4 blackguard Banite joins the group telling the current Imperceptor that they need to fear your character you can't be upset OOCly when they...well do what they do.

And thanks Richard Bane - Cress's RP was subtle and excellent in the Temple. *applauds*

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Ari'aerath Dlues'athsha ~ Silver Singer with the Bow of the Sun
Clarette Feohn ~ Magic is Art.
Victoria Marrs ~ "I have an herb for that."

I think we both missed each others points along the way as I was alluding to IC actions garnering IC consequences. Which is exactly what happened.

I wish to be perfectly clear, Richard's RP was both appropriate and outstanding in the face of adversity. However another player involved attempted to use status that was not gained IC nor DM approved, performed IC actions that dictated an extreme IC response. And was very hostile when several people tried to help OOC'ly. Not cool really.

Tormak is right though. We do in fact yearn for something new and different to RP with. A players level and time on the server make no difference to the value of their RP and opportunity to impact the server. However, IC actions always draw IC consequences, unless that has changed?

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Thine taste in horrid footwear not withstanding, I did not say that thou were in fact an idiot, I merely implied that such things were self evident.

-Krrja

Thanks. As for status and such of the other character not being approved or ICly gained--only status claimed was as "now-first daughter of a foreign House" and as a Female. If that would require approval (which--at risk of overstepping with my own interpretations of DM actions--tacit approval has now apparently been given as far as the backstory portion), then point taken. But for a female Drow to not stand her ground in the face of an unknown female Drow, well maybe in Amia...heh. By the time they both had a solid idea of who was who, it was already too late... As it went, it went the only way it really could probably with Drow, with the more powerful of the two taking action instead of just letting it slide.

Once frustrations with the situation cleared, I think things started going better. And can and will get much better from here. Amia vs Forgotten Realms a bit--and information is being shared/gained. Likely better to move on and press, as opposed to keep picking at the scabs, yes?

Good hunting, and looking forward to further (less violent, when appropriate...lol) interactions ingame!

And for a note, the OV was /intended/ to be a non-Lolthite group.

If you have an underdarker that is not a Lolthite, feel free to send me a PM. I am still interested in doing this for the players (And there are some) not interested in playing Lolthite Drow.

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Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

...It's still a non-Lolthite group. A Lolthite group would be "all Lolthites, all the time (with hidden heretics for funzies)" which it's not. Presence of Lolthites in group =/= Lolthite group.

This is just an FYI to anyone out there who doesn't know a lot about the group.

Edit: And more specifically it was intended to generate RP -without- excluding anyone. Including disenfranchised Lolthites.

Edit edit: Although as always, o mysterious onlookers, better to check this stuff out ICly. Let your character decide!

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@Thanatopsis#6293

I think the Obsidian Vanguard is a great idea, they are based out of L'Obsul. It's a wonderful option if you are a UD race and are interested in being in the UD, so do check them out ICly.

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Ari'aerath Dlues'athsha ~ Silver Singer with the Bow of the Sun
Clarette Feohn ~ Magic is Art.
Victoria Marrs ~ "I have an herb for that."