(Disclaimer: This is not a “dev team please do this” thread. This is a discussion thread designed to express opinions. Please keep your discussions relevant to expressing your opinions on the raised question.

[edit] If the idea proves to be popular by the playerbase and has several DMs also backing it, then I shall place in a formal request to the development team who may action it when and how they see fit. Once again, I emphasise that this is not a "dev team please do this" thread or a brainstorm on ways to implement it, it is a discussion for you to either agree or disagree with my opinions below and explain why.) /[edit]

Whilst jabbing people with vaccinations, and reading some recent threads a bunch of thoughts trapped in the back of my mind that I discussed long ago in a different area of the forum came back to light. Now... its been nearly 2 years since I've had this discussion, so I think its ok to present it to a new and different audience.

With such a large Underdark, it could be possible to increase the playerbase with the inclusion of several more races to the playerbase pool. What we have at the moment are:

*Drow
*Duergar
*Orogs
*Svirfneblin
*Kobolds
*Shadow Elves

What I'm suggesting... is the possibility (of discussion) for the following to be given slightly more access to the Underdark areas then what they currently have:

*Goblins
*Hobgoblins
*Ogrillions
*Half Drow
*Tielfings


Now, some of you may have noticed that the above listed races are not “Underdark” races, however by doing so it doubles the amount of potential races to be found down there and with it, the potential of fresh players. Below I have provided justification to my train of thoughts why the inclusion of said races into the Underdark environment (in a way that is slightly more limited then the true underdark races) is plausible:



Goblins and Hobgoblins:

It goes without saying with these fellows that, like Orcs, they dwell in mountainous and cavernous regions and are adept at such lifestyles. Although living in subterranean caverns and caves is not comparable to the Underdark by any measure, there's no doubting the ability for either race to survive... and as both races are a solid source of income for slavers, I don't see why neither wouldn't be able to adapt to life in the Underdark.

As far as mechanics go, both races have Darkvision feats which makes them suitable, if not as adept as the true Underdark races in dwelling in such an unforgiving domain.




Ogrillions:

Now, because Ogres aren't natural inhabitants of the Underdark and Ogrillions as a subrace don't possess Dark Vision, it is a little harder to justify why you'd find Ogrillions readily in the Underdark. However there are a few ways to explain such:

*I cannot remember where, but I've read somewhere that Orogs are fascinated by Orc-half-breeds of any kind, particularly half orcs. Considering the Ogrillion's natural status as the largest and most aggressive orcs in the tribe, Orogs would most definitely have a few lying around, even if its only for mundane reasons such as fodder or potential slave investments.

*Ogrillions are big, Ogrillions are stupid and Ogrillions are strong. A Perfect candidate for a potential race to breed for slaves and servants?

*Because all of their other buddies (excusing pink-skinned half orcs) if this is seen favourably are able to hang in the Underdark, it would be wrong to leave Ogrillions on their own isolated from the other Orcish subraces.




Half Drow:


Half Drow will cause some confliction because there's two trains of thought:

Essentially my understanding is that Lolthite Drow despise them for being exactly what they are: half-caste Drow. However, other Drow such as Vhaeraunites and Ghaunadarites are nowhere as picky and actively hire or breed Half-Drow to increase their numbers which means their existence in the Underdark is not only highly plausible, but expected.

Mechanically they also have darkvision... so why not?



Tieflings:

This one's going to cause quite a huge manner of debate... and for obvious reasons because the term “tiefling” is so generic, if not inaccurate due to its universal (and not human-specific) subrace status. However, below is a collection as to why their inclusion may potentially be plausible:

*In my bored state of mind, I have done some reading about the Underdark of which one source was the novels from the War of the Spiderqueen series. Now, I'm not defiantly raising a flag and saying that such books are strictly canon (I'm sure many would disagree with such) as I have not read them personally, only about them... however in those books there were mention of quite considerable populations of tanarruks: a breed orcs that meddled with daemons as well as the existence of Draegloths: Drow/Daemon hybrids that both existed in the Underdark. (source: monsters of Faerun 2001 pages 59 and 73)

Now, before you jump on a bandwagon whilst blabbering “but Galenson said” and get some wild ideas up yourselves, to play such races will without a doubt require DM approval and some considerable RP time and DC investment, however the very distant offspring of such creatures may substitute as an Underdark version of a “tiefling-like creature:” particularly in the Tanarruk's case more so then the Draegloth.

* Tieflings, for what they are, like Drow are hated on the surface. For more (questionably) reliable protection from prosecution more then anything, Tieflings would find themselves in places like Skullport and other settlements similar to it throughout the Underdark.

* There's a lot of Tieflings in Thay (according to the subrace topic on the sidebar anyway). Thayvians like selling slaves right? Slaves also breed and get freed right?

* Mechanically, the tiefling subrace has darkvision. They may not be as adept as true underdark races, but living underground is still a possibility... and Tieflings being the evil, untrusting survivors could pull it off.



So now, I present this to you the general playerbase: could such races be added to the Underdark? And if such races were added to the Underdark pool in a slightly more restricted fashion, would they increase enjoyment or break the Underdark?

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Plays:

"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."

What exactly are you suggesting be done? As far as I'm aware, goblins (and presumably hobgoblins - I think so but can't confirm) have the same UD access as any other UD race (barring drow, who are more developed and thus have secret areas for themselves). What more could they get? If you're suggesting they get a little outpost of their own? That was being worked on IG by the Vanguard (before we got hit in the face with a university). I get the sense that in the two years since you last pitched this, things changed and you're just not aware of the changes. I might be mistaken though, and some of the races you suggested aren't UD-based so it's worth discussing them.

Halfdrow are the same as gobs, in that they show up in L'Obsul and can navigate (at least the non-goods do, can't vouch for the goodies). We have/had a half-drow or two in our numbers. Assuming they don't get a reputation for being spies/goodies, I imagine the more pragmatic of drow will tolerate them (at least in L'Obsul).

Ogrillions, we had one show up and go through the process of gaining a UD widget. I admit it's an odd case, although I question the usefulness of this particular suggestion: there's probably a significant degree of overlap between players who play orogs and players who play ogrillions. If someone wants to play in the UD, most would just pick orog. I'm not saying it's a bad idea to include ogrillz though - I mean, it couldn't hurt, and I hardly see any of them as it is, but it's not gonna make a dent in the low-population problem. Still worth a shot I guess.

Tieflings: Yeah, the big problem is the universality. But it could work as an option - at creation for example, you're offered the opportunity of starting in UD B (though I dunno where the spawn on A would be - Underport is fine I guess).
Speaking of Thay, it's actually right above a drow metropolis (Undrek'Thoz, home of the Blackened Fist monks! I think they trade, too). Drow tiefers are a bit squiggly (they disagree with the subrace system a bit, not to mention possible lore issues - I mean, all drow have demon blood anyways?), though I suppose less mechanically so if they had the option of starting in the UD.

Tiefers aren't really that hated on the surface in Amia, sadly (then again, neither are most drow), at least by PCs. So they're not really compelled to dive below in huge numbers. If they did start showing up (I mean down!), inevitably there'd be spies among them, or worse, non-tiefers trying to be tiefers! (since they don't always manifest traits physically?) Not that this is bad in itself, generates RP and all, but the inevitable reaction of the residents will be to eventually either cease associating with them or attack/oust them outright. Then we'll be back to square one.

Post is already kind of long so I'll leave it there. I can say more stuff though.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

I think it's possible to request a non-UD race to be given UD access provided there is an RP explanation/backing and you do it the proper way. I'm not sure it's necessary to give a blanket access to these other races, but think that if you want to be this sort of unique you can and probably should request for it?

For the love of all that is holy, And unholy too for that matter! Let us not segregate the PC Races even more and split them up into tiny settlements nobody will visit. Clutch them together in one pit instead!
Else you'll have a ton of areas nobody visits due to the low PC population.

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Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
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Everything but tiefling & Ogrillion sounds fine.

Tiefling would be an issue because of the thousands of "goodly" tieflings out there that would use it as a means to attack others. I also don't think being a tiefling should suddenly magically make you able to navigate vast and complicated networks of caves and cavarns in the underdark. With no light. Nothing about a tiefling suggests they should be granted this ability. Skull port is entirely accessiable from topside as much as bottom. Its more of a shallow underground port then an underdark city.

I'd also be a bit iffy about Ogrillions, as they are one of those "Abused" subraces which often end up being taken by players who wanted to be a big tall half-orc, but won't RP the montserously dumb elements. Usually they tend to only get used as a quick road to WM. They are also as you say, stupid, and thus probably don't have the abilities needed to actually navigate the underdark by instinct.

Got no issue with the other two races however. Goblins & Hobgoblins make sense as do Half-Drow.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

I think goblins & half-drow have the permissions anyway? My goblin has no problem in navigating the UD and we have a half-drow UD tracker and he hasn't had any troubles navigating it as well.



If you were referring to goblin outpost part of his post, said outpost was to be part of L'Obsul itself, not an independent settlement.

That said I would like to see more races around L'Obsul and there was a few about before yeah, major essay time came. On that note, apologies for the Vanguard decline, we haven't given up but there is RL work to sort out.

The Underdark's low rate of activity bugs me as well, I would like it to be more engaging to lure more people in. But hey, most of the work is go IC and make it more appealing to draw in the non-drow UDers.

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So, currently anyone can get into the UD. Mechanically nothing is keeping any race out. Common sense yes, mechanically no. The fun thing the UD has is that you can get tossed from a crane and get lost in the caverns if you’re not a UD race. I mean there are elves running around in the UD now for heavens sakes.

I’m for not changing a thing. It should be more difficult for non-UD races. It’s difficult for Drow if you’re not paying attention to where you’re going. Just because you can see in low light doesn't mean you are an uber tracker that can find your way everywhere.

To answer the questions, lets not add to the current UD races. I think the enjoyment is in having to be clever about getting around if you're not a UD race.

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Ari'aerath Dlues'athsha ~ Silver Singer with the Bow of the Sun
Clarette Feohn ~ Magic is Art.
Victoria Marrs ~ "I have an herb for that."

Elves and surfacers I find below tend not to enjoy what I do when I find them. Players love it, but there are enough nasties in the night below that surfacers are not prepared for and give me no pause to throw at them.

In the Underdark, there is a great chance your screams will never be heard or simply attract something worse.

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

Im with the OP for sure here. Drow cities in cannon have a multitude of races inhabiting them. Very few are strictly drow only. Its just the Drow who have the power and political authority of the cities. Other races such as Alufiends, Teiflings, Goblins kobalds and the such would be common. Bar svirfneblin as they are most hated racial enemies. So long as all "lesser races" followed the 'laws' of the city and of Lolth -- They would be permitted. Of course there is always a danger of being the victim of a bitter or wrathful priestess or other drow.. But I think opening and allowing those races to travel and trade would help get rid of some of the isolation of the drow that surely affects its population. More interracial mingling between "Evil Races" would be fantastic.

The problem with that is that canon drow treat all the other races like something they happened to step on while walking through a rothe enclosure. Unfortunately, most players don't like being treated like that. Thus this whole discussion runs it's circle once more.....

Those players who play drow say, "But it's canon for our drow to treat other races like crap." and the non-drow UD players say, "But we're people too and we want to RP."

The question lies in the query... Do we sacrifice canon drow sentiment or do we allow "soft" feelings and sentiments to creep into the drow RP to allow them to deal better with non-drow UD races?

I can't say which is better, personally. My drow matron was always a complete bitch to non-drow. However, I went out of my way to include them as best I could... they just had to overcome the bitchiness that Bree had inherent in her character. So, it is possible to do... just don't forsake your character's personality to do it. Some give must be accepted by both sides for it (the UD) to work. Those non-drow have to accept that a drow character is going to be a bit of an ass and a drow player must accept that a non-drow is going to be a bit rebellious.

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"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III

To be honest, absolutely nothing. As the title suggests, this thread is about food for thought and purely that. I merely presented my idea and was curious what other people thought. Some of the feedback has been rather constructive so far both for and against.

Instead of taking my usual bitter experiences I figured I would focus more on an intriguing thought: that the Underdark is well designed and big enough to cater... so why not allow a larger audience to cater for?

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Plays:

"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."

To rephrase, I more meant "What would you have done?", because I wasn't sure if you were aware that gobs/hobs(?) and half-drow already do have UD access.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

I would like to see more races in UD, maybe it will shake up the area a bit, more RP. At least if Underport could be more accessible for surfacers or non canon races.
Goblins and hobgoblins is a good idea for example esp. if they have their settlement within the drow city.





If this could be an excuse for separate the drow, I would say let`s separate the pale skinned ones too, I don`t have a single surfacer toon who was not treated like crap by surfacer elves, just because it is canon. This is why I rolled a drow recently...
So I don`t think we got to sacrifice canon drow as the canon kept on the surface too!


Please feel free to remove my post or edit if it would come out as flamethrowing. It was not my intention to do so!

In Menzo and other drow cities, there normally are more "lesser" races than drow, in that you are correct Blackthorn. However, just like the slave owners of the pre-Civil War South, it's because the drow want to lay around and do what they want without having to work so they keep massive amounts of slaves on hand. Don't make the mistake of thinking that those "lesser" races are out cavorting and hob-nobbing with their drow buddies, because that's not the case what-so-ever.

In my opinion, Edonil should be pretty much drow only. L'Obsul was created to be the melting pot of the UD races and hardly gets much use at all.

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"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III

There's nothing *inherently* boring about L'Obsul; drow just prefer Edonil. When we started up the OV it was astonishing how much we could figure out to do: negotiate deals with Edonil, patrol the passages leading into the UD from the surface, map the surroundings, consolidate resources, plan construction. There are rentable houses around - less than Edonil, but when I first showed up in Edonil there weren't any rentable houses there anyway.

The thing is, people don't necessarily want to play outright lessers though, why should they have to? In L'Obsul they at least have a go at being contenders, so they have a better chance of advancement there. And it's not like Edonil drow can't drop by L'Obsul. I don't see why non-drow UDers should go along with the drow playerbase just because that's where the numbers are now - it doesn't take a lot of work to get L'Obsul going, and once that's done we have a better chance of drawing new players in. A better chance than offering them comfortable second-class citizen status in Edonil, anyway. Although that is something, for those who don't mind that sort of thing but would rather the activity. But personally I'm still going to concentrate efforts on L'Obsul.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

Because people only want to roll Drow and only want to be in a Drow only city. Congrats, you found the obvious catch 22 that we've known for years?

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Incorrect.

L'Obsul was designed to be a city in its infancy, which with a little love and a bit of watering would flower into whatever you put your mind into. The players ASSUMED that L'Obsul was just a bigger form of Underport, And like you have emphasised just now, there are some still out there today who think of it in that way.

That is a wall of ignorance that needs to be knocked down.





Everyone knows which side I support in that arguement. However, the place for that discussion is dead and buried here. DM or not, I don't want this thread devolving to that again because quite frankly the only thing that comes from it is I remind myself how disappointed I am, Tormak reminds himself why he doesn't go down below and everyone else gets their grrr faces on.

We have already established MANY times that the core of what it is now won't change, Edonil exists and the divide between Drow and Non-Drow is still present. That is the reality of what we have to work with... and a new influx to balance the scales is (in my opinion anyway) a possible chance that might tip change in a positive manner without upsetting the current in such a drastic way.

Will it work? Probably not. The races suggested are not that popular which means drastic numbers shouldn't be expected. However, by offering a possibility L'Obsul can get off its feet a little easier and there can actually be a greater chance for a "combined playerbase" like everywhere else, not the divide we have now.

Afterall, the Underdark is big enough. It cannot hurt... and there's elements in the print to back its possibility. The questions I originally presented still haven't changed: if playerbase expansion could to be implemented, what would be its limits? And why?

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Plays:

"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."

I am new to this persistent world, been playing since August of this year which in comparison to some that is a very short time. However, my new fresh set of eyes can say that Edonil does seem to not welcome anything but Drow with open arms and honestly it hurts the drow community. One of my characters wishes Edonil to be a hub of trade, which in turn can help to make her house more powerful. There are smaller cities per say such as the little communities deep in the mine off L'Obsul but are so damn annoying to get to so it limits their usefulness imo. New folks such as me did not even know Edonil existed until almost 2 weeks into play time, and only stumbled upon it out of curiosity and multiple deaths exploring the areas.

The way things are will remain the same though because the player base has the choice of going topside where it is perceived easier then playing purely down below. All I keep hearing constantly is "Going to go play on A"

Suggestions:

-Make the few quests we do have doable only ONCE but available until level 5, in their current state you may not even find them until you are already 3 since you just need 1k in experience to make 3. Hell, I just found 2 more of these quests last night after 2 months playing here.

-Add quests that if done will force you to go to Edonil, or the small communities in the UD.

-Tradeskilling here has a HUGE learning curve, find a way to lessen that especially finding the appropriate job trainers. There is some trainers who I can not simply find and I have asked everyone where they are. Use an npc that gives hints or general directions maybe? Add in the job book the available job points you have to train with please.

-If L'Obsul is it for the time being then allow for each subrace to have its own unique area off it basically. The new mines section could have offshots that lead to a Deep Gnome area, etc. Can we get some reasonably priced house also for subraces?

Kobolds spawn in the L'Obsul Warren, not the Tradehouse.

Otherwise, the way things are set up allows for the following:
•Drow to truly be superior and make the rules in at least one region of the represented UD.
•Other races of the UD get to focus on L'Obsul and shaping one of the two trade hubs Amia possesses. (Underport is strictly NPC controlled where as L'Obsul can easily provide room for PCs to take charge.)

All these discussions are great and all but the primary factor here is getting people motivated to stay in the UD.

Interest needs to be generated in playing in the UD. This requires dedication. One of the largest detriments I have witnessed that affects dedication to sticking in the UD has been people getting their own Alts at odds with eachother due to them have multiple PCs in opposing houses. I have witnessed many good players leave or go dormant due to not wanting to choose between what house they truly wish to support and not wishing to potentially risk the life of either character they play. Alt-itis isn't a bad thing, I simply suggest folks try to focus on joining only one house at any one time when playing Lolthite Drow.

Otherwise, I find when I am DMing I can usually get a number of you guys on and in one area that is open to the public and promotes interaction. Try to do that on your own without me there. Make L'Obsul's top-floor bar a usual "hang out" as it were. Don't be afraid to congregate in Edonil's gathering pits.

The more players there are that are on and active, the more likely more will log in to join you. Make it a habit and suddenly you have the solid numbers supporting the player count server B is able to accommodate.

(Also, long overdue side note, 'server B' is in no way a slap to the face saying 'you aren't good enough for A' as some people have given me the impression of having taken it to mean. Hell, we put our testers on C-Mia, doesn't mean we like them less or believe them any less essential to the community. B-Mia is an oppurtunity for the UD community to grow and expand. It is a chance that should be taken by the horns and allowed to thrive with PC interaction, motivations, and drive. That should not go to waste and is pretty exciting, IMHO, which is largely why I volunteered to take up Edonil. )

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

I've been in L'Obsul most nights (-6 GMT/CST) for the last couple of weeks on my drow, in that time I've seen literally no other PCs. Have people abandoned this place for other locales? Or am I just having absolutely dreadful luck.

Not the only one there. I'm GMT +1 and no one around. My duergar already started talking with his silk spider...

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"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." - Antoine de Saint-Exupry

You know... I see more OOC posts in the UD forum these days than I do IC ones.

If your having trouble finding people to RP with. Leave notices?



Or



Little IC posts like that with a brief ((insert time)) are more often than not, going to attract someone to role play with. When I handled the Magthere in the past, I would frequently hold combat classes in Edonil. Whenever the city was 'dead' I would just put together a class with the two or so people online and sure enough... Within the hour the place would be all sorts of active. It doesn't take much to generate RP in a seemingly empty Underdark. And these combat classes I held were open to all UD races. We had a few Orog, some kobalds, a few deurger, even a goblin. I worked and integrated the other races into my Magthere RP. And man... We were never bored.

That alone was proof enough for me that opening the UD more would help generate RP. But the other thing that is apparent is that if people put more time posting IC UD things than OOC ones, they would find more roleplay.

Just tossing that into the hat.

I second Blackthorn on the IC postings. Most OOC posts I see about IC things are just silly. And if that doesn't work? L'obsul is a place where the top part is open to Surfacers (I believe?) so you can always attract some Surface RP up there if you're workin' hard and gettin' nothin' in the UD.