AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Teach a Man to Fish topic (Build topic):

Damn right I'm going to suggest Lasting Inspiration.

...Go for 20 Bard. 20/4/6, something like. Forget Lingering Song, it's crap compared to its Epic bigger brother.

You will never use Curse Song, ever, without it. All your Bardsongs will be used to buff your party before each spawn, and you'll still run out halfway to the rest timer. With lasting Inpsiration you only need 2 per day, max, to look after your guys, giving a whole pile spare to use on Curse as you approach each group of spawns. Its that combo of the two songs that turns Bard into a full-on curbstomper. Lasting Inspiration is an absolute must.

Hmm. Considering it.

Another thing, say I take one Divine Champion level before epic. And say my character reaches level 21, is it possible to take -epic- feats as bonus ones at levels 2,4, and 6? Or do I have to take -normal- feats as bonus divine champion ones at epic levels?

You can take epic feats.

Thanks!

Got it figured out...I think.

All right. I've got a plan for a Wizard / AA / Rogue in the works.

Right now, here's where it is:

Final Class Layout: Wizard (Generalist) 15 / AA 10 / Rogue 5

Base Stats:

STR: 10
DEX: 17 -> 23
CON: 12
WIS: 12
INT: 15 -> 16
CHA: 10

Feats:

Level 1: Alertness
Level 2:
Level 3: Point Blank Shot
Level 4: Int +1
Level 5: Extend Spell
Level 6: Weap. Focus Longbow
Level 7:
Level 8: Dex +1
Level 9: Rapid Reload
Level 10: Maximize Spell
Level 11:
Level 12: Dex +1, Rapid Shot
Level 13:
Level 14:
Level 15: Skill Focus Spot, Combat Casting
Level 16: Dex +1
Level 17:
Level 18: Imp. Crit Longbow
Level 19:
Level 20: Dex +1
Level 21: Ep. Weap. Focus Longbow
Level 22:
Level 23:
Level 24: Dex +1, Ep. Skill Focus Spot
Level 25:
Level 26:
Level 27: Armor Skin
Level 28: Dex +1
Level 29:
Level 30: Epic Prowess

I'm thinking about dropping the Rogue levels for Fighter, mostly for weapon specialization.

It's gonna be spot-based, the hide and MS are iffy with the Rogue levels.

Any and all thoughts are welcome, suggestions definitely so.

I'd suggest a wiz 23/aa 5/rog 2. You'll have 50 standard ab with Tenser's and epic spells to play with. A fine and beefy summon to divert the attention while you pick your opponents apart from a distance. Epic Mage Armor is also worth aiming for for sure.

Try to avoid ending on uneven numbers. 22 or 24, not 23. It won't benefit you. You wont need Rapid Reload or Combat Casting. The first because you have Rapid Shot. Rapid Reload is for crossbow users only. Combat Casting certainly isn't worth it, since you wont be going into melee as a mage/archer. Do grab Blindfight and some fortitude boosting feats, mate.

Might wanna take another look at the build statwise, since you would need 20 int for epic spells, should you want the build I suggested.

There are alternatives of course.

All right, now I have this, with Ulir's advice:

Final Class Layout: Wizard (Generalist) 23 / AA 5 / Rogue 2

Base Stats:

STR: 10
DEX: 16 -> 20
CON: 11
WIS: 10
INT: 17 -> 20
CHA: 10

Feats:

Level 1: Alertness
Level 2:
Level 3: Point Blank Shot
Level 4: Int +1
Level 5: Extend Spell
Level 6: Weap. Focus Longbow
Level 7:
Level 8: Int +1
Level 9: Rapid Shot
Level 10: Maximize Spell
Level 11:
Level 12: Int +1, Blind-fight
Level 13:
Level 14:
Level 15: Skill Focus Spot, Spell Pen.
Level 16: Dex +1
Level 17:
Level 18: Imp. Crit Longbow
Level 19:
Level 20: Dex +1, Gr. Spell pen.
Level 21: Ep. Spell: Mummy Dust
Level 22:
Level 23: Ep. Spell: MA
Level 24: Dex +1, Ep. Weap. Focus Longbow
Level 25:
Level 26:
Level 27: Ep. Skill Focus Spot
Level 28: Dex +1
Level 29:
Level 30: Epic Prowess

Still Spot based, now with more AC and summons. I like it, kinda beefy, certain to get the job done. If anyone else has anything to input, I'm listening!

I'd drop that extra point of Con into Strength so with a Maxed Bulls you only need 2 Strength on your gear set to be sitting on 20 Strength all day with Tensers running.

Just a quick suggestion, you're grabbing mummy dust at 21 which requires 21 wizard levels. Rather take 19 and 20 as AA levels, grabbing you an extra attack and +1 ab, you also get to shift that free wizard feat at 20 into an epic feat.

you can get alertness on gear pretty easily... might want to reconsider that one

I'd swap Alertness for Blooded. It is a far handier feat when using a dexer.

I'd also drop your spell pen feats in favor of something else and switch out Rogue for Bard since you are going to sorely miss discipline otherwise.

I'd be going 16 Wizard 4 AA in pre-epic as well and end the build on AA so you can sink hide/ms/spot you will have plenty of skillpoints for them.

This:

STR: 10
DEX: 16 -> 20
CON: 11
WIS: 10
INT: 17 -> 20
CHA: 10

Is also extremely messy.

As a moon-elf dex is cheaper than Int so in reality you should be going 16 Int to start with and reducing that Con by one and using the four free points to up your Dex score to 18 start.

Then you can use that level 20 Wizard feat for Great Int. By doing it this way you will have secured yourself 22 Dex which is rather handy given its +1 AB/+1 AC in reality which is a fairly good exchange for spell pen that you will have very little use for.

What Mosh said.

What are everyone's thoughts on a monk/assassin going for epic dodge? I was going a high monk/low SD before the changes, but I'm thinking a low monk and high assassin could really do damage now! I'm not sure if 9 monk/1 fighter/20 assassin or 10 monk/20 assassin would be better. I don't need the Imp. Evasion from monk but I do want the AC bonuses from the class and it is important to the RP of the build! Also, I'm lookin' for that murder tool if I'm going to go over 10 in assassin so that's why the decision to go so high in that. Thoughts? I'm a sucky builder.

I'd personally go 8 Monk/4 Fighter/18 Assassin, with 4 Fighter pre-epic... 9 Monk isn't really giving you anything there. Dual-wield kamas and you'd be doing a fair bit of damage with an okayish amount of AB.

Quick question-

Do all levels after 20 give a character the same BAB and saves no matter what?

@Sune & Estara

You will only have 23 discipline (ranks) with that build, unless you wish to lose out on the four attacks per round that monk 8/ftr 4/ass 8 (pre-epic) gives you.

@Murex

Yeah, depends if you have ecl+1 or higher though. You gain +1 ab at 21, 23, 25, 27 and 29. You gain +1 universal saves at 22, 24, 26, 28 and 30.

If they go kamas, they'll have more than 4 attacks.

... was thinking standard four APR, in other words 16 bab pre-epic, which I think Sune was aiming for. Just a heads up that it will be a bit short on discipline, when you also need to boost other stats like AC, dex, int, fort etc.

Let's see... 10 Monk/19 Assassin/1 Ranger is a viable alternative. The Improved Evasion on Monk means you can take Great Dex I instead on your Assassin feat, opening another. Taking Ranger in epic also allows a Discipline/Spot dump and free two weapon fighting. That is... assuming kamas are even wanted here.

Alternatively: 6 Monk/18 Assassin/6 SD.

Okay, here is a new build for an evil murader-type fighter dude. I know the death attacks won't be multiplied with crits, so don't remind me. I just want to know if I made any mistakes or if you care to offer any good suggestions.

Vorox-

14 Fighter
7 Weapon Master
9 Assassin

Human
STR: 17
DEX: 13
CON: 14
INT: 14

Skills to Acquire-
Intimidate: 4
Hide: 8
Move Silently: 8

L1 (F1) +3 Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Focus: Scimitar
L2 (F2) +1 Expertise
L3 (F3) +1 Spring Attack
L4 (F4) +1 Whirlwind Attack +1 STR (18)
L5 (F5)
L6 (F6) +2 Weapon Specialization: Scimitar, Toughness
L7 (WM1)
L8 (WM2) +1 STR (19)
L9 (WM3) +1 improved Critical: Scimitar
L10 (WM4)
L11 (WM5)
L12 (WM6) +1 Cleave +1 STR (20)
L13 (WM7)
L14 (F7)
L15 (F8) +2 Great Cleave, Power Attack
L16 (F9) +1 STR (21)
L17 (F10) +1 Great Fortitude
L18 (F11) +1 Knockdown
L19 (F12) +1 Improved Knockdown
L20 (F13) +1 STR (22)
L21 (F14) +2 Armor Skin, Great Strength (23)
L22 (A1)
L23 (A2)
L24 (A3) +1 Overwhelming Critical: Scimitar +1 STR (24)
L25 (A4)
L26 (A5)
L27 (A6) +1 Great Strength (25)
L28 (A7) +1 STR (26)
L29 (A8)
L30 (A9) +1 Devastating Critical

You can't grab cleave before power attack. You definitely need blindfight perhaps instead of great fortitude, and you have... *gasp* no epic weapon focus. You could shave off some points in con and start with 18 str, freeing up an epic feat. I noticed you don't have epic weapon specialization either.

Grabbing four levels of assassin in pre-epic will make you lose one BAB, but you will have two extra epic feats and gain +3 ab (EWF and epic prowess) and EWS (if you insert weapon spec pre-epic). Basically, starting with 18 str and grabbing 4 assassin levels pre-epic gives you three epic feats to play with.

If you do the above, you also gain more than 24 ranks of discipline.

Thinking about something.

What summons have a Cold breath weapon? I know Silver Dragon Knight. Any more?

Or, are there any more summons apart from Winterwight(?), Gelugon, Ice Para-elemental, and Ice Mephit that have a Cold theme in their attacks and/or resistances?

I believe the Greater planar binding from Lawful evil summoned a Gelucon.

can someone tell me how the items merge with the shifters? what's the system?

Check amiawiki for details. Amia has added weapons to all shapes, and I believe bracers was as well (not sure though). A few forms merge shield ac as well.

thanks!

Hello everyone! I am trying to help my friend with a build, but I myself am simply not qualified as I am new to the server. The short of it is I am asking for help and I would be grateful to have any. The build is simple enough, as we are not interested in power gaming, but we are trying to make him effective in holding his own.

The race is human and the goal is getting five levels of Knight Commander to fit with Paladin. I myself am terrible with Paladins, but I wondered about maybe putting Divine Champion in it making a build something like 20 Paladin/ 5 KC / 5 Divine Champion. However when tested (as best I could without the KC class in the test module) the class did not seem sturdy enough nor did it seem to gain any benefit in the area of attack over something like fighter/WM/rogue. Could anyone offer some help?

Paladins are very sturdy! If you're married to the Pally/KC/DC then I'd suggest trying 19P/6DC/5KC if you want the extra feat but if you're like me and you like round numbers you'll stick to the 20/5/5 because it makes you feel fuzzy.

The WM is going to have better all day every day attack, yes, but you'll be better against anything you can't crit, and you also have the advantage of much of your damage being magic and divine and in some cases Positive. This means you skirt immunities. You also got built in buffs, and the auras from KC over the WM.

If you don't mind dropping the DC then I suggest 19 paladin/6 Monk/5 KC. You'll get a load of free feats + Evasion from Monk which is totally worth losing the fancy round numbered level for. You'll also pick up Tumble.

TormakSaber wrote:

Paladins are very sturdy! If you're married to the Pally/KC/DC then I'd suggest trying 19P/6DC/5KC if you want the extra feat but if you're like me and you like round numbers you'll stick to the 20/5/5 because it makes you feel fuzzy.

The WM is going to have better all day every day attack, yes, but you'll be better against anything you can't crit, and you also have the advantage of much of your damage being magic and divine and in some cases Positive. This means you skirt immunities. You also got built in buffs, and the auras from KC over the WM.

If you don't mind dropping the DC then I suggest 19 paladin/6 Monk/5 KC. You'll get a load of free feats + Evasion from Monk which is totally worth losing the fancy round numbered level for. You'll also pick up Tumble.

I cannot thank you enough for your input on this matter, I'm certain that I should be able to use this information and create something fitting for my friend! I think I may try to sell him on your suggestion of 19 Paladin/6 Monk/5 KC on the grounds that it seems very tankish with tumble and such. See he plans on playing a Paladin dedicated to Helm and so it's vital the build reflects that.

I suppose if I dare ask further I would wonder on starting stats and whether or not this build was intended to be Strength based or Charisma based? I only asked due to the fact I understand that many abilities work from charisma. I believe that 14 Wisdom is the correct way to go however. I do apologize for my endless questions, I did not intend to be so inquisitive and if the build was for me I wouldn't be as concerned. I simply do not want to lead another person astray on the build, especially not a friend.

P.S. One more concern! What leveling order might you suggest? I wonder how the order may reflect on AB, etc. (Or if it would at all!)

14 wis, yups. You can either do a cha base or a strength base. Strength based is easier. Most STR bases do 14 charisma to max it out at 26 for a +8 bonus. 8 dex, 10 or 12 con, 10 int and the rest into strength, levelling it as you go.

As for levelling, you do most all of your paladin and KC levels pre epic for better BAB. You don't need the monk saves since you're a Paladin.

TormakSaber wrote:

14 wis, yups. You can either do a cha base or a strength base. Strength based is easier. Most STR bases do 14 charisma to max it out at 26 for a +8 bonus. 8 dex, 10 or 12 con, 10 int and the rest into strength, levelling it as you go.

As for levelling, you do most all of your paladin and KC levels pre epic for better BAB. You don't need the monk saves since you're a Paladin.

Many thanks again! This is excellent input and all of my questions are answered fully. This community thus far I am happy to say has been nothing but helpful, from not only answering my seemingly endless questions but also by having some wonderful roleplay in-game. Thank you again and with this I know he'll be satisfied, this is more than enough information to work out a build on.

18 cha, 18 str, 14 wis Is my favorite.

Ulir wrote:

Check amiawiki for details. Amia has added weapons to all shapes, and I believe bracers was as well (not sure though). A few forms merge shield ac as well.

I cannot find the form list there.

Under class changes, shifter. It seems the shifter page might need an update as well.

http://amiawiki.shatuga.com/index.php/Shifterfix

My bad, I meant to say nwnwiki.com, not amiawiki.

Hello, i could use a bit of clarification on amia's monk gadgets, if anyone knows.

1. I am guessing that all the custom abilities, if using Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm charges, have the same DC mechanic. That is, DC = 10 + 1/2 character level + WIS mod, fortitude save. Is that correct?

2. Now here's a harder question. Does Improved Stunning Fist feat increase the custom monk abilities DC's?

PaladinOfSune wrote:

I'd personally go 8 Monk/4 Fighter/18 Assassin, with 4 Fighter pre-epic... 9 Monk isn't really giving you anything there. Dual-wield kamas and you'd be doing a fair bit of damage with an okayish amount of AB.

Honestly with a monk, I would rather just go unarmed, to avoid any minuses on attack rolls. Also for any assassin build, I would take all the initiative feats. Also I almost want to say drop two assassin for two more fighter levels in epics to squeeze out feats if you need the extra feats. Also with any assassin thats doing that much assassin levels I would honestly go intelligence base, because you can crank out a DC 40 death attack if you do it right.

16 Assassin doesn't gain Epic Dodge, 18 does. Unarmed is very bad compared to kama because of all the mythal slots you're losing out on. Intelligence base doesn't gain Epic Dodge, either. Between going Dexterity and picking up around 6 more AB and AC, along with Epic Dodge, or taking Intelligence and losing all out on that for the sake of your death attack being higher, it seems obvious to me. As an Intelligence assassin, you can't hit, you have no AC and it all rests on a single attack that can be rendered null with Epic Dodge/high saves/rolling a 1 anyway.

Aeqvinox wrote:

Hello, i could use a bit of clarification on amia's monk gadgets, if anyone knows.

1. I am guessing that all the custom abilities, if using Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm charges, have the same DC mechanic. That is, DC = 10 + 1/2 character level + WIS mod, fortitude save. Is that correct?

Freeze Lifeblood does, yes. Ki Shout uses Will. Pain Touch, Eagle Claw, Weakening Touch and Axiomatic Strike have no saves, you just need to land the touch attack.

Aeqvinox wrote:

2. Now here's a harder question. Does Improved Stunning Fist feat increase the custom monk abilities DC's?

Nope.

Also going unarmed with only 8 levels of monk and your damage is pathetic.

...But it's so much cooler.

A gnome player is not fit to judge what is cool!

Oh, shush. If anything the very fact that I think fists are cooler than Kamas - Which they indisputably are! - gives further weight to my claim that Gnomes are cooler than Elves.

...Which they indisuputably are. :idea:

Taste, my man. Some people have it...

Thanks very much Sune.

And gnomes indeed are far more interesting than elves, which in the Forgotten Realms are just a bunch of fairies [except the Drow]. Even in Middle Earth, elves, if much more deep, were too emo for my liking. Yet nothing can beat the halflings - those are the utter annoyance no matter the setting.

Of course, it's just a matter of taste. And opinion.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

16 Assassin doesn't gain Epic Dodge, 18 does. Unarmed is very bad compared to kama because of all the mythal slots you're losing out on. Intelligence base doesn't gain Epic Dodge, either. Between going Dexterity and picking up around 6 more AB and AC, along with Epic Dodge, or taking Intelligence and losing all out on that for the sake of your death attack being higher, it seems obvious to me. As an Intelligence assassin, you can't hit, you have no AC and it all rests on a single attack that can be rendered null with Epic Dodge/high saves/rolling a 1 anyway.

Then why not just go rogue then? If you want epic dodge, why bother taking a prestige class, that is intelligence based for its str? Besides, if you combine crippling strike with this build, spam IKD, get off those sneak attacks and take care of dev critters of the back, sure there are items and what not to help be rid or even make yourself immune to crippling strike, but to me it seems silly if your going assassin and not using the class to its full advantage. Honestly from a pvp stand point, just go rogue with it instead of assassin. Sure then there is the case of RP reasons for being having assassin levels, but anyone can RP out being an assassin.

Also with the mythal system, its nice and everything, but with UMD you can buff up a monks fist now with GMW scrolls (mind you its +4, but thats good enough) and also flame weapon scrolls. Also by dropping assassin and going rogue, you can squeeze out nice little extra feats.

You make an assassin with high dex (or strength if you're into that) because the death attack dc is 10+18+int. "But that's low!"
Is it? 18 assassin puts one of his poisons on his weapons, hides and wanders off towards his opponents doom. Say he's got 14 base int, so a 2 bonus, which can be buffed to an 8 bonus if he really tries. He hits his enemy with a death attack flurry.

Depending on his apr, his opponent will have to make the following saves, assuming he's buffed himself: death attack, 10+18+8= 36

Assassin poison: 36

More death attacks APR dependant: 36.

They'll roll a one eventually.
I've always wanted to make a devving, dual weilding, 18 assassin named Buhlin' Ferwuns, but I feel like it wouldn't be appreciated.

As far as I understand the assassin ability only triggers once every turn. I could be mistaken however.

I think so, but death attack triggers at some ratio of DA's per apr that I can't ever remember.

death attack triggers if the target isn't in combat and you get a sneak on them. the special assassin tools triger 1 a minute

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