AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Drow aren't Tel'Quessir. They gave up that when Corellon cursed them and banished them out of being... Tel'Quessir. Being as he's the head honcho of elves, I think what he says goes, eh? They're different in many ways in attitude, physiology and mentality to what is the elven norm.

Anyway, perhaps I wasn't being clear. Let's quote something for a moment here from the Complete Book of Elves.

The Complete Book of Elves wrote:

"Elves never teach this style to non-elves, including half-elves and drow (the latter of whom have their own teachers and their own style anyway). Elves make no exceptions to this rule, even for those who have proven themselves eternal friends to the elves or even those who have married into elven life."

Now, this is from 2e, mind you. Half-elven Bladesingers are possible in 3e, but I'd imagine it being an incredibly rare event that one would be trusted enough to be taught those arts.

However, drow are not going to pick up the Tel'Quessir art of Bladesinging. They are not going to be taught by an elf.

So, if you are making a drow Bladesinger, make sure you're fully aware that you're not making one who has learned from Tel'Quessir society. The Lolthite style of Bladesinging is different stuff. Any claim from an Eilistraeen drow that he's learned Bladesinging from elves will be met with jeering and tomatoes! It wouldn't happen. Except in a Mary Sue fanfic.

Imagine Voronwer's dismay when he heard that a human was being taught Bladesinging by one of the Mystic Blades! He was LIVID!

And yeah, I agree with everything Sune said and have nothing further to add.

That quote saying that drow "...have their own teachers and their own style anyway" seems to imply that they have their own version of "Bladesinging".

Although its probably easier just to call them swordmages and avoid the whole bladesinger crap since it is basically the exact same thing apart from the name and the idea that the "Bladesingers" protect and exemplarise elven ideals.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Drow aren't Tel'Quessir. They gave up that when Corellon cursed them and banished them out of being... Tel'Quessir. Being as he's the head honcho of elves, I think what he says goes, eh? They're different in many ways in attitude, physiology and mentality to what is the elven norm.

As to this they can't stop being Tel'Quessir (in physical terms at least) its denotes their origin as part of the "people", the once single race of elves. They were cursed, branded traitors and kicked out of graces of the Seldarine along with their gods.

That is quite different from saying the Corellon altered them so fully that they were no longer elven which is what saying they are not Tel'Quessir means (unless you are purely talking about their view on the spiritual/mental aspect, which would be awesome ICly to debate). Whether the drow or any elf would say that they were so related though is an entirely different matter.

Tel'Quessir is ultimately more of a title or culture than anything else. Drow are not considered Tel'Quessir because they are of no longer of elven culture. As you said, they were branded traitors, so they're not of "The People" any more. Any drow, Eilistraeen or otherwise, attempting to use Ssri'Tel'Quessir would be considered the height of arrogance.

Btw, it's been said a few times drow are changing physically to the point that they may not even be real elves one day. Centuries of Underdark radiation and balor blood does that to you, I suppose.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

Imagine Voronwer's dismay when he heard that a human was being taught Bladesinging by one of the Mystic Blades! He was LIVID!

But... you can't learn it without elven blood...

I've never heard it said that they CAN'T be taught it without elven blood, just that it NEVER happens.

Also one could assume that being designed to the elven style of fighting it is much more suited to their body types and wouldn't work as well for a human or other race especially when they could use some other similar method of magic/bladework better designed for their abilities.

Literally to take Bladesinger you have to be half-elf or elven. It's in the requirements.

Mechanical restrictions are not lore. That just says that you aren't allowed to be a spellblade if you aren't an elf or half-elf.
And considering it is designed for elves taught by elves and only taught to other elves (and half-elves) it is fair to say that.

It doesn't say that there is some extremely odd reason that elven blood is physically required for it.

Mechanical restrictions can certainly be lore. For the most part, class restrictions aren't just picked out of a hat. There's reason behind them.

For instance, Arcane Archers, Paladins, Druids, Warlocks... all of them have class restrictions with lore reasons behind them. You literally cannot be an Arcane Archer without elven blood. Warlocks have to be evil or chaotic because of the pacts they make as part of the requirement.

Saying mechanical restrictions are nothing but mechanical doesn't make much sense to me.

I didn't mean to imply that why weren't based on lore but rather that the restrictions themselves do not constitute lore.

All I was saying was that your interpretation of why the mechanics are they way they are could be flawed.

Your interpretation that the blood is actually required is akin to the reading it like "You need wings to fly, if you don't have those then you physically can't do it."

What I'm saying is that its more that the restriction is there because they just never teach it to other people AKA "This is a locked building and will always stay locked, so while you could theoretically manage to enter you will never be allowed to".

It could also be that other races just don't have the proper physical abilities to do it properly. I just don't buy that the elven blood has some magic quality that makes it possible.

The restriction's in there for more than secrecy reasons, though. For the amount of time it would take a human to learn Bladesinging, they'd already be dead.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Any claim from an Eilistraeen drow that he's learned Bladesinging from elves will be met with jeering and tomatoes!

Was pretty much the idea, having to constantly prove himself and never realy succed in such, plus the aspect of drow and bladesinger would be rp wise pretty intense and so interesting to play.

So from what im understanding (assuming my english didnt failed me today), that its not possible an elven/half-elf be teaching this art of war to a drow because in all history of fr lore, it never happened right?

PaladinOfSune wrote:

The restriction's in there for more than secrecy reasons, though. For the amount of time it would take a human to learn Bladesinging, they'd already be dead.

Thats fair, just as long as

PaladinOfSune wrote:

But... you can't learn it without elven blood...

isn't supposed to to mean that elven blood magically makes it possible rather than it simply being that non-elves simply aren't physically built or live long enough (or worship the elven ideals enough to be called "bladesingers") to properly learn it.

Acrid.fr88 wrote:

Was pretty much the idea, having to constantly prove himself and never realy succed in such, plus the aspect of drow and bladesinger would be rp wise pretty intense and so interesting to play.

So from what im understanding (assuming my english didnt failed me today), that its not possible an elven/half-elf be teaching this art of war to a drow because in all history of fr lore, it never happened right?

It seems like it would go completely against the teachings of the "bladesingers" to teach drow who are considered traitors to the elves, so no, probably not. And while you could be taught basically all the same abilities and methods and from an outside view even seem the same. You wouldn't be a true "Bladesinger".

Not necessarily true at all. Elves are a lame mary sue race so it's completely possible that you have to be "Elven".

Sort of like the junk the Drow players like to throw around about Drow hands being triple jointed and double thumbs and three times as long or whatever junk so no one can do Drow hand sign but them.

I disagree that Drow can't be Bladesingers, though I agree that they likely call it something else. If only just the same name translated into Drow. At the core, it's the same class though.

Races of Faerun says that Drow can. I don't really know why the who Tel'Quessir argument came in to play, since this has nothing to do with that cultural term at it's core. This is about Elves, not the term "Tel'Quessir." Drow are a type of Elf, per Races of Faerun. They're listed as Elves in the table of contents and are constantly referred to as Elves when you read about them, starting on page 34. They're called "Elf, Drow," "Dark Elves," and even straight out just as "Elves."

The requirement to be a Bladesinger is not to be Tel'Quessir, but to be an Elf or Half-Elf. There's a distinct difference between the two terms, Elf and Tel'Quessir.

The Tel'Quessir discussion was unrelated to the class discussion, really.

Speaking as a rather fanatical tel'Quessir partisan, I kind of agree with Gunz. There's no reason the ssri-tel'Quessir wouldn't have known the secrets of Bladesinging, and there's no reason the Descent should have made them forget about it en masse.

"to offset their abilities, bladesingers suffer severe penalties. Not only must they attempt to advance the cause of elvendom somehow at all times, they must also lend aid to any elf in need. Unless the elf has proven to be an enemy of the elven way of life. The bladesinger must sacrifice life and limb to save the elfs life." the complete elf page 89

That in my mind says it all... no Lolthian would ever go out of their way to save another... it isn't their way at all... in fact the death of a drow would show they are weak and thus deserved the death... Eilistreans on the other hand... maybe.

Given one of the tenets of Llothism is the destruction of all elves and their ways, I think it'd be likely the drow would have their own twisted, evil bladesinger variant. The bladesinger changed from a class who's members revere their people and their way of life to one that celebrates the death/suffering of others and the destruction, subversion, or twisting of surface elven culture.

I very much agree with Sune here on both points. On the issue of elves being elves or not; they have lost every single thing that made them elven. If you read through Elves of Evermeet it becomes rather clear that every single part of the present day drow that made them ssri-tel'Quessir has been purged or corrupted. They were cursed by the group of gods who hold a direct line to the lifeline of every elf. To call them Ssri-Tel'Quessir is akin to calling present day Italians for Romans and perhaps even more off. The divine entety that define the very existance of the elves have cut the drow out of the people and they cannot be considered part of the people. Naturally some drow may refute this, possibly even claiming they're the only true part of the people remaining but that doesn't change the fact they have been cut off from the source of all things elven and even barred access to realm of the Seldarine.

As for the Bladesingers they are also a very special part of elven culture and the very nature of elves which the drow have lost all connection to. So no its not possible for a drow to be a bladesinger in any capacity, they might have invented their own twisted version but it would never be the bladesinger that the surface elves know.

Mulhorand question: Would it be 'poor form' to use the wider Ancient Egyptian mythology ICly? A post a few pages back implies that Ptah is known but not worshipped, does that also stretch to figureslike Anubis, Shu, Nut, Tefnut and Imhotep, the Physician of the Gods? I'm not asking if they can/should be worshipped,more whether or not it'd be appropriate to mention them in various tellings of myths, legends, sayings and expressions?

On that note, have the (rather reclusive and protective, hence why this is even a question in my mind) Mulhorandi adopted the wider 'creation myths'? I could see them still hanging onto those beliefs after being confronted by foreign ones, due to the fact that they have their own gods - and get powers from them - of various things that apparently everyone else has other gods for. "Everone else is wrong" seems to be the vibe I get to some extent.

If I read the sourcebooks correctly, the Mulhorandi people and pantheon ARE the ancient Egyptian people sucked through a portal. I think it's a little silly (Same as Nobanion being Aslan...) but it's in the books. Of course, DMs can (and sometimes should) retcon out such silliness. That being said, I do look to ancient Egypt for cultural things that aren't expressly mentioned in the sourcebook.

NinjaClarinet wrote:

If I read the sourcebooks correctly, the Mulhorandi people and pantheon ARE the ancient Egyptian people sucked through a portal. I think it's a little silly (Same as Nobanion being Aslan...) but it's in the books. Of course, DMs can (and sometimes should) retcon out such silliness. That being said, I do look to ancient Egypt for cultural things that aren't expressly mentioned in the sourcebook.

I know that the Mulan are Egyptians (and Mosh seems to have confirmed in another thread, a year ago though). In fact I can place it to roughly the 18th Dynasty, I more meant that have the Mulhorandi adopted 'current beliefs' (my gut instinct says no, considering they still worship their own ten gods, and Bast/Sharess that came through) regarding the creation of the universe or not, and also whether they've forgotten the rest of their pantheon/mythology.

EDIT: Having read Old Empires, I'm going to lean more towards my gut instinct that they've stuck by their guns something fierce, even if it's never stated.

I'm late to this discussion and there's no solid lore behind what I'm saying, but I agree with Gunz. The cultural bladesinger tradition, such like that of arcane archery, is distinctly elven. However, before the Descent the dark elves practiced these arts just as anyone else, and to assume they've been completely forgotten is absurd. My interpretation about both classes is that Drow have their own twisted variants, similar but somehow different. They haven't mimicked surface elves and "invented" their own versions, but rather their old traditions have adapted to their environment and new mentality.

Duskblades in the Realms are an evil, heavily-armored branch of bladesingers. They use a different class and have a deviant approach, but are explicitly connected to the bladesinger tradition through history. (There's a Class Chronicle article about this, could be lost on the new WotC site). If the corrupted Sun Elves did this, I don't see why Drow wouldn't have done something similar.

As for the requirement of elven blood, I do think it's literal and biological. It may have been downplayed in recent lore, but we mustn't forget that elves have always had a more direct link to the Weave that makes their spellcasting physically different from humans. In early editions, this manifested in different magic mechanics for elves, but their omission doesn't mean the fundamental idea has changed: elves have access to certain kinds of magic humans don't, because their biological relationship to the Weave is different - and vice versa, I imagine.

I imagine it will be exciting to devise a unique drow tradition for bladesingers. It can be a cool character concept, but requires some thought: what has been retained from the old days, what has changed, how and why? There's no Bladesinger PrC in NWN anyway, so it's more a question of flavor than strict rules.

Related question: is there Amia-specific lore for Drow Arcane Archers? There was talk of cooking up lore for their deviant tradition, but was it dropped or did I miss it?

Proletariat wrote:

Mulhorand question: Would it be 'poor form' to use the wider Ancient Egyptian mythology ICly? A post a few pages back implies that Ptah is known but not worshipped, does that also stretch to figureslike Anubis, Shu, Nut, Tefnut and Imhotep, the Physician of the Gods? I'm not asking if they can/should be worshipped,more whether or not it'd be appropriate to mention them in various tellings of myths, legends, sayings and expressions?

On that note, have the (rather reclusive and protective, hence why this is even a question in my mind) Mulhorandi adopted the wider 'creation myths'? I could see them still hanging onto those beliefs after being confronted by foreign ones, due to the fact that they have their own gods - and get powers from them - of various things that apparently everyone else has other gods for. "Everone else is wrong" seems to be the vibe I get to some extent.

That's a good question. I don't think so though. Only certain Gods from Egypt and Mesopotamia sent manifestations of themselves to Toril. The Gods who came through are either known or assumed forgotten, I think is a safe way to put it. Furthermore, because only certain Gods were chosen and agreed to come, not all the gods of Egypt and Mesopotamia came to Toril, so I see little reason why they would be known. Nothing suggests that they're known either. Ptah is known because he brought the Gods of both Earth pantheons to Toril and the Gods likely were the ones who told tails of him. But again, it's lore correct that Ptah is known by some Mulan though. There's nothing that remotely suggests that the Gods who didn't send manifestations or were perhaps lost in transition are known.

As for the second part: the Mulan have a pretty extensive written history. There might be some who naturally question and choose to believe something else -- it's human nature really -- but I'd say the vast majority would see their written history as the way things went down.

NinjaClarinet wrote:

If I read the sourcebooks correctly, the Mulhorandi people and pantheon ARE the ancient Egyptian people sucked through a portal. I think it's a little silly (Same as Nobanion being Aslan...) but it's in the books. Of course, DMs can (and sometimes should) retcon out such silliness. That being said, I do look to ancient Egypt for cultural things that aren't expressly mentioned in the sourcebook.

That's actually only partially correct. The Mulan people are not pure Egyptians. The Mulan are a race that came to be after the mixing of three races: Earths Egyptians, Earths Mesopotamians and Torils Imaskari. The Mulharandi pantheon are manifestations of the Earth Gods, not the original Gods themselves.

Gunz wrote:

As for the second part: the Mulan have a pretty extensive written history. There might be some who naturally question and choose to believe something else -- it's human nature really -- but I'd say the vast majority would see their written history as the way things went down.

In that case, the figures of Egyptian mythology would feature in that history, given that the gods that came from Earth were some of the last gods created in the Egyptian creation myths. Nu and Nut were the primordial sea and sky goddesses, for example, who were created first. Then a bunch of weird incest happened and a bunch of gods happened, including the ones sent to FR. In addition to this, the Earthlings that were taken from Earth are from around the 18th Dynasty, so they'd have had a definite knowledge of this mythos.

Either way, I know that some players/characters reference Anubis, for example and there's in fact an NPC resembling him in the module. It's for that reason that I'm unclear about how much would violate canon and how much is good on a cultural thematics level. Nobody would state that Anubis is a god, for instance, but he could be referred to as a figure in the afterlife, on a similar level as the actual gods but never giving powers.

Admittedly I'm biased in this due to a heavy desire to put my (somewhat obsessive) knowledge of Ancient Egypt to use in a way that evokes a greater sense of immersion. To me, the use of the wider Egyptian culture in an FR context could only help to evoke the sheer vastness of seperation between "east and west", as it were - Mulhorand is such a different culture compared to the rest of Faerun.

Perhaps a better question could be; would I be smited by DMs et al for the use of such imagery and concepts? Ma'at for instance is an example - it's not mentioned in any sourcebook I can lay my hands on but seems to have taken root in Amia lore. Anubis seems to be on a similar level.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure the gods sent manifestations of themselves in the sense that they turned themselves into manifestations. I think Geb for example was forcibly seperated from his wife and sister, Nut to be sent to Faerun.

Oh, you're talking about the creation myth in the real life Egyptian lore. I thought you were referring to the FR lore. I would be real careful about bringing too much RL lore to FR. Mulan history is extensive, but it's Mulan lore, not Egyptian lore. There's a difference. Mulan people are not Egyptian people, they're a mix of three races, even though the Mulhorandi people take after the Egyptian side of their heritage in culture and Gods.

To the point, there would likely be a different history about their creation on Faerun, since their Earth ancestors came as slaves from Egypt and Mesopotamia, not as privileged people baring tomes of Earth lore.

As for the Gods and the concept of manifestations: The Gods didn't leave Earth, they all stayed on Earth, they simply created manifestation of their divinity to work almost like separate, yet nearly identical, Gods on Toril. They gave up a lot of divine power on Earth in order to create these manifestations and send them to Toril. The Imaskari used very powerful magic that was beyond most other magics in the history of Faerun. Part of their magics was that they bared the Earth Humans (Egyptains and Mesopotamians) from reaching their Gods and their Gods from reaching them. Ao, with Ptah's help, came up with a way around it using manifestations instead. The FR Mulhorandi Gods have no contact with their Earth versions and vica versa.

Going back to using RL Egyptian lore: first familiarize yourself with Mulhorandi lore, because there are very important differences. I would say use RL lore only as flavor, if it's not specified as FR lore. For example, you can talk about the mythology behind the 13 pieces of Osiris and how Isis never found his penis, so she made it out of wood/gold/silver, whatever, and that would translate perfectly here. You can bring certain customs from Earth Egypt too, if it makes sense. But if you start talking about Set and Ra's battles with Apep, and you're going too far, I'd say.

Gunz wrote:

To the point, there would likely be a different history about their creation on Faerun, since their Earth ancestors came as slaves from Egypt and Mesopotamia, not as privileged people baring tomes of Earth lore.

That's a very good point. Sounds like something that could be cooked up through IC theological debate, in that case.

I made some edits, btw.

Gunz wrote:

I made some edits, btw.

That last paragraph was what I was looking for, basically.

Thank you for the clarification!

I have a little question about Salandrans and their initiation process for an "outsider" cleric wishing to join their ranks as a Novice. While their doors and services are naturally open to all, the Wiki entry reveals little on how new members are introduced and if something akin to a probationary period exists. I do assume the Temple Mother ultimately has the final say in whether or not a cleric should be officially part of the order in case of issues or further decision-making being necessary, but it's not clear if she even has the time to oversee and introduce each new member on some personal level.

This mainly stems out of my personal reluctance to slap a Salandran Robe and Wizard Hat on a kobold and call him a Novice. He knows and follows the Tenets, takes ready advantage of their library, actively pursues research in the medical field and does his personal best to uphold the duties expected of anyone calling themselves a follower of Salandra, but they don't seem the kind to operate by "alright you're in, until you majorly screw up and Salandra smites you herself" alone.

Thanks in advance for any clarification offered

I suggest you try to set up a meeting with Peeves, since he does most of the Salandran stuff these days.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

I suggest you try to set up a meeting with Peeves, since he does most of the Salandran stuff these days.

Sounds good! Thanks for the info :>

IronAngel wrote:

Related question: is there Amia-specific lore for Drow Arcane Archers? There was talk of cooking up lore for their deviant tradition, but was it dropped or did I miss it?

Yes. It's been stated a few times (in this thread possibly, or a few others... search function should avail). If I recall correctly, Selvetarm handles it for the nasty drow, whoever does it for the elves does it for the Eilistraeean drow (Solonor? I can't remember them elven deity names, they're all the same). That's about as much detail as I've seen on it.

Well, it's not divine in origin at all, so that's not really problematic. I was under the impression someone was working on an article concerning the history, social organization and characteristic technique of the corrupted drow version of arcane archery. There was a debate on the issue earlier this year, and it was settled with the promise that there'd soon be lore. I was itching to write my own version of it (perhaps as an IC thesis suggesting new lore), as it's something I've thought about for years, but obviously I wasn't going to step on the toes of whoever was writing the authorised version.

Yeah I wondered a bit about the explanation given, but since magic itself is of divine origin it kind of makes sense. I kind of assumed that Solonor taught archery in its entirety, to the elves, though looking into it I can't find anything in the few books I have. So I'm out of my depth and really should shut up so one of the DMs can answer. Why were you expecting a write-up, though? It seems kind of an unusual thing when this provision is mostly made because the creators never expressly forbid it and possibly never even gave it much thought (not that I can find any details, though it is even mentioned in one of the books that half-drow qualify as arcane archers), and because people had already gone ahead and made drow AAs.
I would've figured just saying "it's okay because of x" and leaving it at that would be fine, since that's about as much attention the creators gave it. On the other hand, anything written about Selvetarm is great, because he's an excellent deity with too little spotlight (who was downsized to death, in his prime!)

Real drow use crossbows anyway!

The lore is that Selvetarm stole it from Solonor and bequeathed it to the row. As was said. That is your lore.

@AA talks
Pretty much, yup. Though don't get me started about Drow with Longbows fighting in tunnels >.< Shortbows I can buy, however. Otherwise there simply seems to be confusion over the use of the term "divine gift" when used in conjunction with an arcane class. So here is a simple breakdown:

Solonar creates Arcane Archery and teaches it to earlier Elves. Parts of the enchantment process tie in to Elven blood and so it becomes a racial class. Early Elves rejoice at this and get a hard on for enchanting arrows on the fly and share this 'divinely gifted' knowledge with subsequent generations.

Selvertarm spies on this, masters it himself, and then shares the knowledge with the Drow, who suddenly leap at the irony of using the enemy's weapons against them while enchanting arrows on the fly and they in turn share this 'divinely gifted' knowledge with subsequent generations.

@Bladesingers
I am with Gers. There is no reason why, as Drow on Amia get AAs, they could not also have a twisted vile perversion of the Bladesinger class. They weren't always cast out, after all and I see no reason why the basics of the class couldn't have been in place before they got banished underground.

I imagine that's partially a mythological explanation, though. The seperation of fact and fiction in a fictional world where gods are fact is of course difficult, but I have a hard time believing the actual instance of elves picking up arcane archery was something Solonor was involved in as a physical person. Looking at it from a half-IC scholarly perspective, I imagine the a common hypothesis would account for the real historical causalities that brought about the current situation, as interpreted through mythological framework. It's not like Prometheus really gave fire to men, even if he had been real.

It's also of note that Arcane Archery was surely practiced well before the existance of Selvetarm (as his current manifestation, anyway) and the Descent of the Drow, so it probably was practiced in Ilythiir and brought down with them. I imagine the secular explanation a Faerûnian scholar would give for the tradition and the myth would be that the art was preserved and perversed among the faithful of Selvetarm in particular, where new tricks were devised. That's why it is attributed to Selvetarm, though it is also possible that the gods really were involved on a metaphysical level.

Re: longbows. We've probably had this discussion before, but I think it's hypocritical and inconsistent to think of the leg-long longbows of NWN as the man-sized ones you see in medieval warfare. As the game model and mechanical function attest, it's a slightly larger and more potent version of the shortbow. An adventurer-issue, so to speak. If it can be used in the thick underbrush of a forest, it can surely be used in the vast halls of the Underdark. But yeah, that's another topic.

That's my take on it. Not really looking for a "right" or "wrong" verdict, just pointing out the multiple layers of the IC reality and what kind of interpretations people might make IC.

Could very well be. I was somewhat hinting at much the same with what I think of Bladesingers and the Elf/Drow divide. Then again, I am no all around Elf-o-phile lore wise (outside of what learning I have done/am doing of Drow), so I bow to those that comprehend the full nuances of these particular Elven prestige classes.

I posted the lore. Postulate all you want. I gave the answer.

didnt tormak and iron go at it about this very topic a few pages back?

That can be said on any given page in the Lore Thread, really. It's sort of par for the course.

I'd just like to bring up that you can always use a class to represent something slightly different, so long as it isn't claiming any more inherent power or restrictive lore. So if you're worried about people raging over your drow practicing arcane archery, well maybe it's something different. It'd be silly to assume there is only one or even just two methods for style. So maybe there is a "pure" traditional Tel'Quesir one, and maybe there is one derived from whatever happened with Seveltarm, but the class in general would be literally thousands of years old. I'm sure there would be more than two ways to go about it then, even if the styles that later came along were derived from those first two. 1) Derivations over millennia likely would give rise to things that begin to take their own shape and 2) It's not even guaranteed that someone would know its a derivation.

Tl:Dr -> Arcane Archery is likely a huge umbrella consisting of multitudes of flavors and styles, probably descendant from two ancient styles, but not everyone ICly could verify that, beyond "the old books say it" or "my great-granddaddy saw it happen, he did."

As for Bladesinging, everyone knows Beldor went back in time and trained the first elven bladesingers, spellswords, battlemages, duskblades, Arcanamaches, Eldritch Knights and Knights of the Weave. This is common knowledge people, you really should start attending more of his lectures.

Dieu_Le_Fera wrote:

didnt tormak and iron go at it about this very topic a few pages back?

No. If you're referring to the fight 3 months ago, that was about the normativeness of the deity system and rather off-topic. What we're returning to is a debate with Mahtan almost exactly a year ago.
Page 76 and page 77 of the topic deal with this.

Some select quotes from back then that made me inquire again, because I was genuinely looking forward to this:

Quote:

We are writing up new classes for those drow AA to RP as so it doesn't conflict and sound so stupid. They will not RP as AA even though they have that class because it will represent something else for them. Special ones for good and evil drow.

Quote:

That's mostly whats going on here. We're giving the gray area here a more colorful side so Drow that want go and make a ranged class where they can rival the surface AA now they can working their own magic with oddly enough bows in tunnels --
So with the new options for those good and evil drow will make a more clear way to get the desired class bonuses. We will have all the lore of the classes right here on the forums in the public because we wrote it.

You can see why I was kinda expecting more than a half-assed mythological explanation of something that didn't even need explaining in the first place - Arcane Archery was canonically never a gift from Solonor and therefore not problematic for drow. Amia homebrewed the problem ("drow AAs seem stupid") so it could homebrew a solution and return to the status quo.

Not saying I'm unhappy with this Drow AA issue being dismissed lightly. It was a bad idea to tamper with it in the first place, and this seems like a casual and unobtrusive way to ignore it. No harm done, even if it might have been exciting to get a new class with new lore.

Dark Immolation: completely agree. It's part of what I'm getting at: nothing was as fun as researching every bladesinger reference in the books when Kalliniel was learning the style, and then have him write his own IC thesis on the subject with added flavor induced from the lore. That's what I personally hope to see from drow arcane archers: players who make the effort to add detail to the tradition their PCs are practicing based on the bare bones of official lore. So take the hint, whoever wanted to play one, and go write me an essay!

Are druids banned from consorting with Outsiders? While I know that undead are absolutely verboten, I'm having trouble finding anything about the relationship between (evil) druids and (evil) Outsiders. Would a druid of Malar be willing to summon demons to aid him in his hunt (via, say, EMD Outsider)?

The only "outsiders" that Druids are 100% against all around are aberrations. All other outsiders, it's really on a case by case basis for each Druid/group of Druids. That being said, Druids don't usually call on outsiders, save elemental types and Sylvan/fey creatures. A demon summoning Druid would be very odd. Malarites -- and Malar himself -- prefer the use of magical beasts and animals. Malar himself rarely makes use of any outsiders, save evil Sylvan/fey creatures.

Summoning demons is counter productive for a Druid to do. Personally, I can't think of any reason why one would summon a fiend. If you think you can though, go ahead and make your request.

Remember that even evil Druids fight on the side of the natural world and natural order, they just go about it in evil ways. Evil druid does not equal anti-Druid.

On a related question, would a Ranger/Blackguard of say, Malar, be able to summon outsiders with his BG powers, lore-wise, or would they be magical beasts?

A ranger could do demons no problem. A druid/BG of Malar is probably looking at some sort of Beast of Malar that would still technically be classed as an Outsider. Reskin fodder, says I!

I'm pretty sure the answer and I'm sure it's been asked, but I can't find it: Any of the 9 devil lords can accept clerics, si? (Using the Mephistopheles as the name for the diety field, of course)

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