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Yeah, it's true, but I've been trying to weight the options. AC won't be ridiculous since it's a monk and thus a lack of shield and such, though I was considering from an RP standpoint as well. Really, I could see her working to perfect her speed in line with her other abilities for either really (ie a large burst of speed or being able to avoid attacks better).

Buuuuuut Armor Skin is definitely the better choice, numbers-wise. Just gotta see how she feels then!

Quote:

AC won't be ridiculous since it's a monk

... 0_0

You mean "My AC will be ridiculous and one of the highest in the server because I'm a monk", right?

... Maybe I did the math wrong, then? I swear I came out with around 40 AC, and I always hear Monks are nasty with AC XD
Think I know what happened, I left off the base 10 AC haha

10 (base) + 4 (armor enchantment) + 0 (no shield) + 4 (avg dodge boots) + 4 (avg ammy) + 4 (avg cloak or something) + 14 (dex bonus, +8 nat, +6 from items/potions) + 3 (monk leveling bonus) + 6 (10 WIS, plus 12 from items/potions) + 6 (30 tumble) = 55 AC

That's about right, eh?

edit: Not to mention scrolls like mage armor, haste wands, etc

10 base +5 armor enchantment, +5 dodge, +4 ammy, +4 cloak +14 dex, +3 monk, +6 wis, +4 haste +6 tumble = 63ish then there is mage armor +1. so 64 is pretty high. Most WPM builds get 45-50 tops.

*nodnod* Yep, pretty much what I thought. I like to underestimate just a tad for the sake of things

Plus, there's the sexy Epic Dodge to avoid getting beat over the head.

So, yeah, kinda why I was wondering if bumping an extra +2 AC is going to matter a whole much.

You were talking about a STR build. You arent getting Epic Dodge on a STR build.

Uhhh.. what? O.o

When did I mention a STR build?
For that matter, I listed a bad arse dex bonus soooo XD

ILoveIceCream wrote:

10 base +5 armor enchantment, +5 dodge, +4 ammy, +4 cloak +14 dex, +3 monk, +6 wis, +4 haste +6 tumble = 63ish then there is mage armor +1. so 64 is pretty high. Most WPM builds get 45-50 tops.

50 is Tumbletak in +4 gear. 55 is Tumbletank in +5.

GreatPigeon wrote:

You were talking about a STR build. You arent getting Epic Dodge on a STR build.

Sin4Given was asking about a STR one. Just happened to be right with Nai's.

TormakSaber wrote:

ILoveIceCream wrote:

10 base +5 armor enchantment, +5 dodge, +4 ammy, +4 cloak +14 dex, +3 monk, +6 wis, +4 haste +6 tumble = 63ish then there is mage armor +1. so 64 is pretty high. Most WPM builds get 45-50 tops.

50 is Tumbletak in +4 gear. 55 is Tumbletank in +5.

Tumbletank in +4 Gear:

10 Base
1 Dex
8 Fullplate
3 Tower Shield
4 Deflection
4 Natural
4 Armor
4 Shield
9 Dodge (Haste + Boots + Mage Armor Item/Potion)
6 Tumble
2 Armor Skin

Is 55.

I've had an argument before about saying Mage Armor items should calculate but realistically if you get it on a potion and you didn't do something dick (Like take Bard as your tumble dump) your AC is permanantly 9/10 Dodge.

Iron wrote:

Stuff.

I have personally fooled around with the idea of an EDR Barb/KC because of the natural DR, but it works with other classes all the same. What gave me a hard-on when the KC first was announced, was the idea of making the most out of damage reduction. The beauty of EDR is that it doesn't gimp your pre-epic feats, so provided that you can somehow focus on a single class in order to yield enough extra epic feats, you can quite effectively make a proper tank of any class.

Any of the combinations that you mentioned work out fine. For which I would recommend the EDR route are Bard, Barbarian and Ranger. Others are beefy enough to hold their spot in battle without a massive DR and benefit more from investing in other fields, especially that of dealing damage. Bard I would simply have EDR flavour, because it's too precious. Admittedly it works just as well without it.

KC is extremely malleable. Buffing CHA is not a problem. But to give you some guiding for the rough concepts you already had:

Ranger25/KC5, Ranger23/KC5/Rogue2, Ranger24/KC5/Monk1, Ranger24/KC5/Bard1, Ranger24/KC5/MS1: This one is of significant personal appeal to me. Ranger does oodles of damage and has a pet, so EDR KC would work out nicely, always contributing to at least one party member and keeping yourself alive.

Barb24/KC5/Tumble1: You don't really need all the rages, so this one works too. Again, EDR comes at a decent price rate and with the Rage on, you deal damage well above the benchmark. Whatever that means.

Rogue/Fighter/KC: Almost any spread works. You can go DEX, STR, CON, whatever. You can dual-wield, be all scout-like, and thus make one versatile party member: buffing, tanking, DPS, rogueish thingsies. DC would be utterly beautiful for saves as it's so close to affording everything essential and being versatile in regards to PvP likewise. I dream of learning to play a drow one day and making a Rogue13/KC5/DC10 with heavy STR and mediocre DEX and CON, dualwield, and wearing a chain... because they're cheap and balanced with respect to touch attacks.

Paladin and Cleric both follow the same pattern: heavy emphasis on the core class, rest is flavour. Unarguably CHA is sexy for Cleric. Divine Shield AC and easy CHA for the auras, omnom.

Damage vs. survivability is a manifold subject. Sometimes offence is the best defence, sometimes defence is the best defence, sometimes being a clever bastard is enough. Defence isn't an intrinsic value for the class and depends largely on the occasion, or rather, what you intend to do with the character in the first place.

Lol, yea, I was the one wanting a STR monk. I know the AC on him will not be like Nai's but tge build should be sturdy?

Sin4given wrote:

Lol, yea, I was the one wanting a STR monk. I know the AC on him will not be like Nai's but tge build should be sturdy?

I made one before, but I didn't find his offense of defense all that great. It can manage allright, but I would say it's still bleow other builds. 52 AC I think is what it got up to, and the ony good defense it had was the spell resistance. If I was to make another pure monk, I would go the Dex route.

There's nothing special when it comes to building izards right?
Extend, Maximize, Spell Foci, etc.

What about epic feats? EDK is a must for me, so ESF conjuration aswell. Anything else I should definately grab?
And lastly, go 30 wizard or 29 wizard/ 1 ranger? Ranger would fit into the character concept ofcourse.

29/1 is better, 30 gets the kewlness factor.

Not sure what is included in the et cetera, but Extend, Maximise, Empower, and Silent are the ones you want. As long as you've got that covered, nothing will go horribly wrong.

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Ranger25/KC5, Ranger23/KC5/Rogue2, Ranger24/KC5/Monk1, Ranger24/KC5/Bard1, Ranger24/KC5/MS1: This one is of significant personal appeal to me. Ranger does oodles of damage and has a pet, so EDR KC would work out nicely, always contributing to at least one party member and keeping yourself alive.

I think I could combine another combine I've wanted to recreate on Amia with the tank idea if I do something like this. How would you reckon a Rock Gnome or Gnomish Earth Genasi would work? I guess IDK is heavily nerfed by small stature, but it's worth the tradeoff. Gnomes are just too cool and underplayed (or treated as comic relief).

Do Earth Genasi Gnomes still get the Gnomish feats (training against Giants and Goblinoids etc.), or are they removed?

I'm supposed to be writing my candidate's thesis tomorrow (and today, and yesterday...) but if I have time I'll cook up a build to dissect. It's between 25/5 and 23 rngr/5 KC/2 Rog. A gnome will probably struggle to meet the skillpoint requirement without an early rogue level.

IronAngel wrote:

Do Earth Genasi Gnomes still get the Gnomish feats (training against Giants and Goblinoids etc.), or are they removed?

Didn't know gnomes could be Earth Genasi...I thought all Genasi were subraces of humans only.

Am I wrong here?

Genasi races can be of any base race

And yes, those effects are retained. I too am a slimey cheeseball and have a gnome genasi character.

And no, don't take an early rogue level. Rangers get 4 x intelligence modifier for skill points, so you're quite safe with the skill rank requirements. The boo-hoo is that Ranger has several boyscout skills you'd want to utilise, but alas, most require a hefty investment to be even considered. Fortunately the essential is covered by maxing Discipline, Spot and Tumble. Then just sprinkle the rest in UMD, Animal empathy, Hide, MS, Set trap, etc.

Regular gnome is not a bad idea either if you want to avoid the genasi RP. Also, -2 WIS and being an outsider is balls.

EDIT: "Is" because WIS and outsider have a connection in terms of sucking.

EDIT 2: Oops. Taunt is of course nice for a KC. Screw the boyscout.

Naivatkal wrote:

Genasi races can be of any base race

O_o

hrms.....*smokes starts coming out of his ears*

OH the possibilities.....

It's not really that abusable, as the bonuses do not stack. For instance, an elven air genasi only gains +2 DEX, not +4 DEX from elf and genasi combined.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

It's not really that abusable, as the bonuses do not stack. For instance, an elven air genasi only gains +2 DEX, not +4 DEX from elf and genasi combined.

Nod nod...

I just was actually thinking of RP setups....but yeah...that would be funky...

Half Orc Earth Genasi...hello +4 Str...now i will be a bard 1 so I can be a Dragan Disciple...weee...

Okay. what do you mean how did I get 60 str?

Noob...

:mrgreen:

Ah, screw it. Not a good concept to mix the gnome ranger with the Knight Commander. I'll make two seperate characters instead. I might actually turn my Paladin into a Knight Commander if the stats can be salvaged.

What's the most sensible way to build a tough-as-nails Gnome/Earth Genasi ranger? I still like the idea of EDR or something similar to make him hard to kill, especially with the +2 Con. Something like 25/4/1 Ranger/Ftr/Rogue. I can go EWF, EWS and Bane Of Enemies, but that only leaves two feats for EDR. That's a problem. I might be able to drop one Favored Enemy in favor of taking EWF as a Ranger bonus feat, but is it worth it?

I forgot to get 14 Wisdom when I was testing it, but if I did the math right I should end up with:
16 Str
10 Dex
22 Con
13 Int
14 Wis
7 Cha

The low Charisma is extremely fitting for what I have in mind, but I'm a little iffy about min-maxing this hard. Str is pretty bad, as well.

Feats:
Blind Fight
Toughness
WF
WS
Imp Crit
Expertise
Maximize Spell (is this good for Cat's Grace? Dunno if I will wear Dex gear to get to 15)
KD/IKD
EWF
EWS
BoE
EDR II/III (6 or 7 Favored Enemies)

What I'm missing is Armor Skin, ESF:Discipline and Epic Fort. I have no idea how to fit them into the build. Maybe EWS is a bad idea, because it's so costly, and I should just use those 2 feats for Armor Skin and Epic Fort/Discipline.

13 Int is enough to get Animal Empathy, Discipline, Spot, Tumble and UMD. I might have 30 more points to spend on one skill, not sure about that.

This could be complete garbage, so feel free to point me in a better direction. The flavor I'm going for is a surly treestump of a gnome who likes to fight tough and dirty, as part of the land. I rather like the Earth Genasi part, but I've played a similar character on another server as a vanilla gnome so that works just as well. I'll go with whatever facilitates the smoother whole.

Murex wrote:

Sin4given wrote:

Lol, yea, I was the one wanting a STR monk. I know the AC on him will not be like Nai's but tge build should be sturdy?

I made one before, but I didn't find his offense of defense all that great. It can manage allright, but I would say it's still bleow other builds. 52 AC I think is what it got up to, and the ony good defense it had was the spell resistance. If I was to make another pure monk, I would go the Dex route.

Yea, but the dex monk doesn't really do any damage? I know the STR actually hurts. Could someone give me some tips on starting stats and layouts? I'm at a loss

Sin4given wrote:

Yea, but the dex monk doesn't really do any damage? I know the STR actually hurts. Could someone give me some tips on starting stats and layouts? I'm at a loss

I've built monks -alot- in the past, even my current Dex Monk/Cleric/Dancer has 65 AC with Kamas and has absurd damage output, which doesn't use crits.

Anyhow, question at hand is, did you want to go unarmed or with Kamas? For STR I'm suggesting you go unarmed but it's up to you. (There's also a couple belts on the server that give Weapon Specialization: Unarmed - I'm using one in fact just because of the other obscene bonuses.)

Also did you want to go pure monk (Aiming for the SR) or are you willing to multiclass a little?

I'm wanting fists, and yes, multi classing ^^

IronAngel wrote:

Maximize Spell (is this good for Cat's Grace? Dunno if I will wear Dex gear to get to 15)

I don't think you can take spell feats with ranger levels but even if you could you can't maximize cat's grace cos rangers don't have 5th level spells

Sin4given wrote:

I'm wanting fists, and yes, multi classing ^^

It'll take me a little while to get this figured actually, since when you're going Str based you have -alot- of extra feats that are worthless, may have to put 13 Dex/13 Int just for other feats. (or 14/14)

Hokay

Iron:

Don't take 2Fighter pre-epic. You can easily give up Expertise and Maximise. The only way you were able to maximise Cat's, would be to have a special item with level 5 bonus spell slot. And even then it would be silly.

EWS is a brilliant idea and the build works splendidly. 1 CHA for INT 14 would be an intriguing tradeoff, though.

Strength based monks work awesomely, don't listen to the haters. I have one I leveled to 30 with criticals easily of over 100, with Devastating Critical to boot. Unarmed monks have so many leftover feats it's not an issue at all.

Mine was a 20 Monk/8 Fighter/2 Assassin, by the way.

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Iron:

Don't take 2Fighter pre-epic. You can easily give up Expertise and Maximise. The only way you were able to maximise Cat's, would be to have a special item with level 5 bonus spell slot. And even then it would be silly.

EWS is a brilliant idea and the build works splendidly. 1 CHA for INT 14 would be an intriguing tradeoff, though.

Right. Too long since I've played this game, I forgot Maximize increases the slot level so much. I was just tacitly assuming it's 1 level.

But yeah, Armor Skin or Epic Strength to get from 17 to 18? I can also drop Str at creation and get some more Dex or Cha (which is 6 in my current build). I got more feats from tweaking with the level order, I'll post the build later. Right now I'm late from a train!

(Note to self: saved character file Dradoc Peden)

Nerf DEX rather than tweak, if you must. You'll be wearing a full-plate, and gloves or handaxe enabling dualwield completely.

It's a long way to 21 (heavy armor) with 8 Dex, isn't it? I wasn't planning to dual-wield because I can't use a Handaxe in the offhand as a small model anyway (without big penalties). But I guess it doesn't actually require anything from the build, so I can make that call situationally on a daily basis.

So here's the build I have now:
Ranger 20 pre-epic into Ranger 25/Fighter 4/Rogue 1.
16 Str -> 17 Str
18 Con -> 22 Con
10 Dex
14 Int
12 Wis -> 14 Wis
6 Cha

As you can see, an odd number of points plagues me. I could do 18 Str and 8 Dex, 18 Str, 9 Dex and 13 Int, or 16 Str and 12 Dex. Charisma and Dexterity (to a lesser extent) are RP dumpstats for this PC, but I still don't know if 8 Dex will be problematic until I get my heavy armor proficiency at epics.

Feats:
Blind-Fight
WF: Handaxe
Imp Crit: Handaxe
Expertise (I like it and it's probably very handy to draw aggro and let the pet do the dirty work.)
KD/IKD
Toughness

Epics:
Armor Skin
Bane Of Enemies (by lvl 27, meh)
Epic Damage Reduction III
EWF
Weapon Specialization
EWS

And 6 Favored Enemies, of course.

If I keep 14 Int, I have enough for:
33 AE
33 Discipline
33 Spot
30 Tumble
30 UMD
+1 optional skill maxed. I was thinking Heal, since I can't invest in just one stealth skill and Listen is probably redundant.

So, anything to improve? Especially looking for feedback on the ideal ability distribution, keeping in mind the +2 STR/CON and -2 WIS/CHA of an Earth Genasi. Any essential feats I've missed?

Am I correct to think EDR will not stack with Stoneskin simultaneously, but the Stoneskin will be worn down first and then EDR comes into play? (Which is only a 1-point difference by EDRIII, eheh.)

I am planning to use Chainmail (and Fullplate when I get the proficiency), a large shield and a handaxe, occasionally dual-wielding if it's warranted. Not sure about my pet yet, a badger would be fitting but a huge bear would look good too.

For starters, if you're dual-wielding in anything other than light armor, you won't hit anything: Ranger DW is light armor only. I'd be tempted to drop INT by 1 and move to STR: that will get you to 30 STR full-buff and a consequent AB in the 44~46 range depending on your surroundings / buffs...which is certainly workable.

Last edited by IronAngel on Wed, Dec 14 2011, 20:59 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Vaul Tarrith wrote:

For starters, if you're dual-wielding in anything other than light armor, you won't hit anything: Ranger DW is light armor only.

There's a handaxe that gives the early feats for free (or at least one of them, don't remember). The 9th level ITWF works in heavy armor too. That's why rangers dual-wielding handaxes are so popular. Not so useful for a gnome, though, because it's a heavy weapon for the offhand. :/

I need to drop two points to increase Str further. So it's either 9 Dex/13 Int or 8 Dex/14 Int. Not really decided there, because the extra skill is nice but there's nothing essential to pick anymore.

USE LIGHT MACES IRON!
BONK BONK BONK!

Very_Svensk wrote:

USE LIGHT MACES IRON!
BONK BONK BONK!

The stuff available seems geared towards clerics, though. At least if memory serves. I actually kinda want to go Club+Shield, we'll see.

Go daggers. Duelists parrying dagger for the win.

MoshingChris wrote:

Go daggers. Duelists parrying dagger for the win.

What's that?

I'm not sure why everybody wants me to dual-wield when idea is to make a Con-heavy EDR build. Doesn't throwing away the shield defense kind of defeat the point of being a little treestump tank? Is dualwielding seriously just that much better?

It gives you more DPS and two more high attacks of your weapons. The problem your going to face is that EDR rangers are a bucket of shit because Sneaks and criticals will blow straight through the redux which you invested so heavily in. With the dual-wielding aspect on a ranger you choose a weapon you can dual wield and you can sword and board 99 percent of the time anyway, however if you get into a position where you can dual wield without dying you take it because increased number of attacks inevitably mean less sustained incoming damage.

Does the Aura of Despair stack with Knight-Commander auras?

So, a cleric domain-oriented question. Recently, Deneir was added. However, I can not find his Amia-supported domains. They are not here: viewtopic.php?p=1036454#p1036454

Or here: http://www.amiaworld.net/about/deities.php

Am I missing something?

My money is on the deity page not yet being updated with the new information.

If our pretty DM staff does this, I promise to add it to the wiki as well as soon as it is back up.

Then I shall be patient! Treat this as a friendly reminder on behalf of those poor and forgotten gods, then. :wink:

I made a topic in the improving Amia section to make it more visible. :wink:

So in the end, if I wanted to play a tough gnomish ranger, I shouldn't even go for EDR? >_>

What other options do I have? Just pick some yawn-feats like Great Strength, Epic Fortitude and Epic Discipline in its place?

Should Iron choose a DPS type as his character's animal companion, it should make a fairly effective distraction against sneakers and heavy critters. Besides, Ranger sports a good offensive and high Spot, be it STR or CON, so that alone ought to compensate enough.

But all that is a bit moot if you're up against a horde of heavy hitting enemies.

On the build: Good man, why would you ever want to wind up having STR 17?

EDIT: It is a tough gnomish ranger, woman. EDR is purty, though I agree it is a bit of a hipster choice. If you still want to change, yes, yawn-feats like that.

I went with my above build, opting for 8 Dex and 18 final Str. Don't care if it's good, it's cool.

Not yet decided on the weapon, I don't know what's available. That Duelist Parrying Dagger work like the offhand handaxe? Gotta also check out the new HAK models.

I may start another PC simultaneously. Gold Dwarf, and I wanted to do that 18 DwD/5 KC build Mosh mentioned. Are the details posted somewhere already?

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