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http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=55961&p=918615#p918615

Heya! I was wondering if there was a chance for the DM team to update the other Cities with respective population numbers. I've heard it from 9 different players now how they believe wharftown is 20+ NPC's or that endir's is basically a abandoned village because there are no Npc's there.
It's getting on my nerves to not be able to point towards a lore source and say "Nyeh, There is XYZ amount of people here. Look here!"
Please?

I say each one level house can hold between one and two families each with between 3 to 6 childern, going by medieval numbers.

Going by the population number given for cordor I say it's an over populated mess. Like it should be.

It's being worked on.

TormakSaber wrote:

It's being worked on.

Yay!

Lord-Hadeis wrote:

I say each one level house can hold between one and two families each with between 3 to 6 childern, going by medieval numbers.

Going by the population number given for cordor I say it's an over populated mess. Like it should be.

or they dont want to drop ZONE AFTER ZONE AFTER ZONE of houses.

would the RP in cordor be any better if it was 5 zones by 10, half of them filled with houses....no, it also would be a strain on the server and the zones would not get used alot because its just a filler zone.

also a reason why they might not say its a "over populated mess" is to avoid people correcting that, Ceyren's Mill last offical number I got was 200 people, with the port I built,Wiltun coming in...ect I can only assume that number increased,the Mill has about 5 buildings in it... a chicken coup,the Inn,Workshop of Gond,the guard house and the rental housing building.
so the mill has like no houses in game, but would me going and building 2 zones worth of houses really add much to the town, I dont think so.

I was told there was about 2000 Civilians in Guldorand. See how it is?

A 400 person town could fit comfortably in a medium size area really. I'd say double that if a city tile set was used.

Winya Ravana: Population- ~1800.
83.5% Elves
16% Half-humans
0.5% Fey.

Elven Population-
63% Moon Elves
22% Wood Elves
13% Sun Elves
2% Wild Elves
(The elven percentages were IronAngel's, presumed to be when he was DM)

WYSIWYGUWSO

Yossarin wrote:

WYSIWYGUWSO

OK! Then there are 10 People living in endirs, and like 4-5 Militia!

Yossarin wrote:

WYSIWYGUWSO

what you see is what you get unless we say otherwise?

Very_Svensk wrote:

I was told there was about 2000 Civilians in Guldorand. See how it is?

LOL

you got told WAY wrong

no way

Yeah, 2k is way off. That's over 3 times what Bendir would have.

corypx wrote:

Yossarin wrote:

WYSIWYGUWSO

what you see is what you get unless we say otherwise?

Bingo.

I don't have fast and hard numbers for you. We attempted it once upon a time and some might still be floating around, but the only community on the entire server to even make an effort at a complete census (accounting of the people) is Cordor. And that previous attempt at putting the population in? From what I remember of those numbers, I think now, in hindsight, I disagree with what they were. But perhaps if I make some comparisons, it might at least help you along, conceptually.

Cordor I see as having the population of renaissance Venice if renaissance Venice were out on an island in the middle of the ocean rather than attached to a mainland. Ranges are from 130k to 180k, so I would probably place Cordor's population somewhere shy of the 100k mark. Cordor is an urban sprawl with neat waterways and lots of housing/business but we're not going to waste server space to incorporate all of that.

Kohlingen is about 75% of that population living in a slightly more cramped fortress.

A lot of the other places are much, much smaller on the island of Amia.

Winya sounds about right.

Guldorand is like maybe 100 people. Maybe 200, with a bunch of them now displaced.

Uhm isn't even 100.

Wharftown fluctuates. Between 300 and 500, depending on the season.

Bendir Dale I've always seen to be under 1000, but I think with their recent revitalization, a lot of the rp they've seen, money they've spent, relative safety, etc., they're closing in on that number and might have to think expansion.

Wiltun has a population of some 3 to 5 thousand, in my mind, but you have to separate Fortress Wiltun from the unrealized countryside of working stiffs. Fortress Wiltun can only accomodate maybe 300 or 400 people comfortably, a lot of those troops and seamen.

Endir's Point is comparable to Guldorand. Fireshear or whatever that place is called in the Frozenfar has the lion's share of the population in that area, and Endir's Point is just a bump on a frozen log.

Ceyren's Mill is comparable maybe to Wharftown, or maybe between Wharftown and Guldorand.

I'm not even going to make an attempt at anything in Khem. I'm not familiar enough with those areas.

Again, these numbers are not official or researched, they are just my "gut feeling" numbers, and DMs and players alike will disagree and have alternative notions. There is such a disparity in population between Cordor/Kohlingen and the rest of the Amian island for a very, very good reason - those are the only two major settlements on an island populated with scary things that adventurers go out to kill, so people who move to the island on business (the vast majority of people coming out there) are going to gravitate towards places that are safe and offer lots of opportunity. Kohlingen and Cordor offer those (Cordor more opportunity than security, Kohlingen more security than opportunity). Those are the two settlements who once went to war with one another some 200 or 250 years ago or however long it has been since the days of Sword Saint Nabessa.

This population disparity also puts other communities on notice: should Cordor or Kohlingen ever take umbrage with you, they have the manpower to hurt you, and very badly. Fortunately, neither has exhibited any inclination to get involved in land wars and expansionism.

Yet.

I realize it may be Maht's area of expertise, but I'm wondering about Shadoscape now. I imagine it's split between normal humans, Shadovar(or a similar breed of human native to Shadowscape), and a extreme minority of Shades.

What? Shades? No. Shades are EXCLUSIVE to Thultantarr, City of Shade, and there are only a handful of them explicitly loyal to the Princes. I am really really tired of people misquoting that term.

If you can stifle your righteous indignation long enough to answer, I was assuming some level of diaspora considering we had at least one Shade rolling through these parts at one time, IIRC. I wasn't misquoting in that these are Shades created in Shadowscape, but rather a handful traveled/visited there from Thulanthar behind the scenes. The Amiawiki makes doesn't say how long ago Shadowscape was transported to the Plane. And we've had bigger head-honchos living and making appearances on our server since day one.

I wasn't trying to say that they're there, I was asking in the lack of any info on the subject at all.

And I just told you you're wrong, so I don't know why you're arguing with me.

Couldn't resist having a look at how many houses seem to be represented in Cordor and calculate something following the numbers and living patterns from some of my historical text books. Even in the renaissance the middel class as the lower class would have lived in what is usually refered to as the domus, a family head with the wife, sons and daughters, grandparents and possibly married on kin, as it was often found better to keep everyone in one family building so the family head could continue to use the combined wealth and number of heads towards the domus its wealth and power.

This could mean that in a newly started domus it could be as low as 5 or 6, but in a larger well established one as many as 10 or 12. And this was cheeck to jowl living, especially as the domus often refered not to a building but the part of it a family could lay claim to, often sharing one compound with other families in their separete domus.

So doing some loose calculations on seeming available space, as Cordor is represented in game and not taking in to the vaste, spoild for space player class its wishes into account. I've come up with that the in game Cordor represents a populations of: 2200

Yossarin mentioned a likely population of 100.000 so that would make Cordor about 45 times to small!
Even the most optimal redesign of the city would still make it easily 20 times to small.

So no.... I'm not suggesting trying to represent that number in game. In fact I'm not trying to suggest any changes at all. I've just been killing a spare 30 minutes.

Suspension Of Disbelief.

Just have to think to yourself that is more there that you don't see, off camera that is. If that isn't the case there is no way Winya has 1000 elves living in it. There are only three apartments and an inn. When Winya gets its update though I'm sure it will better represent that number. The new temple already shows a much greater population then we can see just by how big it is.

How do these numbers affect crime, and NPC reactions? For example: If a black-haired human is seen mugging someone in Cordor, wouldn't it be much easier to hide amongst a population that big? Or wouldn't most of the descriptions people give be far too vague? Is that taken into account in those sort of situations?

Guess people have an obsession with huge numbers they can't actually represent. I see it on other role playing severs or on larps. Armies of 20.000 represented by a monster crew of 30. Cities of a handful of buildings housing tens of thousands. No idea why people do this when smaller numbers can work too. Personal preference and ego I suppose.

Truth be told I've never run into those numbers in any role play I've had anyway. Though I have to say I'm the type of player that would love a realistic display of population and Amia being about four times bigger. I just love to wander around from area to area without meeting anyone. Then if you meet someone it becomes a true event, just running into someone.

But I suppose do to decisions in the past, other people their preference and the limitations of NWN and the server this isn't likely.

The spacial synecdoche is one of those necessary evils of most any game, in my experience. Otherwise based on footsteps alone Amia is the size of a few city blocks, coast to coast.

Shame Dark & Light failed so badly. I enjoyed the beta till the lawsuits came and the fanbase forgot they where the ones that mainly pushed for such an early release. 15.000 square miles. Took hours to meet someone, lovely RP. Now everything is reduced to one server where the few people that still play all talk a different language and the bugs... well... real shame.

Anyway I think I'll conclude my input for this topic, as this is getting rather off topic.

Figures you lazy humans and elves don't have a clue how many of you there are. You'll breed with anything and anyone so I understand it's kinda hard to keep track of every bastard that gets born. We in Barak Runedar know exactly how many of us there are. There's exactly 700 dwarves in Barak, not including the PC's.

So there..

And how would Dwarves know? Don't they just randomly shoot out of the ground when the conditions are right and return back there when tired of boozing?

Very much joking there.

Make a dwarf and find out

DustSpray101 wrote:

And how would Dwarves know? Don't they just randomly shoot out of the ground when the conditions are right and return back there when tired of boozing?

Very much joking there.

Wrong. They are carved out of rock and then put in a barrel with ale to come to life. That's why they need to drink so much, to prevent them from drying out and becomming stone again.

There is the myth that there are no Dwarven women, this is in fact correct. Dwarves have both sexes and a very short term of pregnancy. Every now and then dwarves drink till the booze runs out, and well... memory and judgement gets fuzzy. The next day you find yourself awake, with a massive headache and a small dwarf tangled between your lower beard.

For goodness sake, everyone should know this...

If folks want a quick and dirty idea of much background population of NPCs dwell in a region the 3.5 DMs guide had examples of populations in the world building section. Obviously what populations are present is up to DMs but its a good guideline of how many folks are milling about behind the scenes of your epic life of adventure doing stuff like baking bread, growing crops, shining shoes, repairing your armor or wenching in bars for adventurers with too much coin and not enough brains.

Thorp: 20-80
Hamlet: 81-400
Village: 401-900
Small Town: 901-2000
Large Town: 2001-5000
Small City: 5001-12000
Large City:12001-25000
Metropolis: 25000+

This also represents human populations, slower breeding longer lived races I would presume would use the lower ends of the scales presented.

Irrelevant and useless info that doesn't help any player. Refrain from doing that in the future.

Khem

Nes'ek: 200 - 300 mostly working the temples or merchants as the east/west interface. This number is declining as Nes'ek's mercantile function is declining with the lanterns and with the explosion of the tropical island.

Djedet: Just shy of a thousand, mostly merchants, free laborers and a growing number of slaves from Mulhorand.

Anari: Less than 50

The rest of the human population: Between 10 thousand and 15 thousand. Khem is an island roughly the same size as Amia but as it is a desert climate it doesn't support nearly as many people.

The Asabi population is around 20 thousand. Around 50 of these are the Silver-Scale tribe.

The Minotaur population isn't countable.

Those number examples are just generalizations that really only apply when looking at the big picture that is Toril, not the few area found on Amia.

Bendir Dale

Population: One could guess anywhere from 600 to 800. Exact numbers aren't known to the public.

Races: The population is overwhelmingly dominated by Hin. Educated guesses could be anywhere from 85% to 99%.

Bendir Dale is an agricultural and merchant town. Most citizens work in those two industries, but mostly in agriculture. Agricultural production includes vegetables, fruits, grains, milk and chicken products.

http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=55961
Can we update the Lore: GEOGRAPHY AND HISTORY, in the Lore section with these fresh numbers?

Won't it be out of date again within a few months. I doubt everyone keeps surviving or keeps getting raised after yet another villiage gets trashed

Barak Runedar (results of second official census):

Quote:

The official census results (not including PC's) are as follows:

The population has decreased by two hundred and fourty four in the past decade, from 844 to 700 dwarves.

206 female
25 younglings
50 infirm (either through old age, or other circumstances.)
419 males.

There are no shortage of miners, refiners or gemcutters and the majority have recieved military training or are recieving it. Still, the number is not sustainable in the current climate, with imports slowly increasing in price and your exports decreasing in qauntity. The current level of working dwarves barely allows the Citadel to break even, though all nescessary positions are full, even the loss of a single Dwarf is felt keenly.

Whilst the military is robust in its defense of the Citadel there are still those that die in the line of duty against the giants and barbarians that wish to expel the dwarves. Unfortunately the dwarves don't reproduce quickly enough to recooperate from the losses, scholars estimate that the population will continue to decrease in the years to come.

Lord-Hadeis wrote:

Won't it be out of date again within a few months. I doubt everyone keeps surviving or keeps getting raised after yet another villiage gets trashed

If you keep making spammy comments and trash here you will quickly find yourself unable to pos nin this forum.

Edonil aka Chel'el d'Cressen
(City of Webs)

Size: Medium Outpost

Population at present:
•Between 700 and 800
(96% Drow, 3% Duergar, 1% Other)

Economy:
•Consumerist, import dependant
(If not for L'Obsul, Edonil simply could not survive in its present state.)

2 (two) exports:
•Spider Silk
•Blood Wine

I'm curious to know Tarkuul's approximate size. It calls itself a living city, but just how many undead or living population does a 'city' make?

Undead? Countless.
Living? About 200 full timers, i.e. people who actually LIVE there, and about a hundred and fifty more who might have some sort of quarteers but aren't there full time.

Are there any estimates on Shadowscape yet? *cough cough* Mahtan? *cough*

Its approximately two hundred million.

Lot's. Except where there is few, or otherwise none.

Kholingen then?

Yossarin wrote:

Cordor I see as having the population of renaissance Venice if renaissance Venice were out on an island in the middle of the ocean rather than attached to a mainland. Ranges are from 130k to 180k, so I would probably place Cordor's population somewhere shy of the 100k mark. Cordor is an urban sprawl with neat waterways and lots of housing/business but we're not going to waste server space to incorporate all of that.

Kohlingen is about 75% of that population living in a slightly more cramped fortress.

Oh, I just asked because your first answer on the matter (The quoted stuff above) was rather vague

Can you give me the precise population of Seoul without googling census data?

Yossarin wrote:

Can you give me the precise population of Seoul without googling census data?

and even the census is still waaaay off...

It's vague for a reason. It's specific enough to get an idea, which is all you will get. There is no magical counter that rises and drops as populations fluctuate. People move out, people move in, people die, people are born, people disappear. It's a fact of life.

An attempt is being made to IC conduct a census of Kohlingen City Proper, this does not include the keep as those numbers are very likely regularly counted, the kitchen staff -does- need to know how many to feed. The Kohlingen Census is intended to be biennial and consists of two parts, a voluntary questionnaire and a door to door survey, once the time for the questionnaire has expired a few knights will divide up the districts outside the keep and go "door to door". This is not an official census conducted by Justicar Marinsbane, but one done by the Triadic Knights so they might have a better grasp of who will need help and protection if there is a threat to the Holy city. Also, Kohlingen takes great pride in the absence of poverty and serious crime in her streets, it is also hoped the Census being conducted will help that to continue by pointing out those that would need assistance. The census will best help the city guards and templars know how how many they will need to station at regular intervals to provide the best protection of the people.

This census, when completed, will be submitted Justicar Marinsbane and the Captain of the Guard. Every attempt is being made to ensure it will be accurate to within 10 citizens. It is the hope of the Triadic Knights that we might provide an answer on at least one City in question.

Special Note: this Census is biennial (every two years) and only requires those that live there 7 or more months of the year to answer the surveys.

City Populations

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