AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Teach a Man to Fish topic (Build topic):

First, Cyric isn't dead here. I don't know if he is in the FR lore, but he's not in Amia's timeline.

Second, I can't see 10 Cleric / 20 Assassin working very well. If I had to take a stab, I'd say 9 cleric / 1 ranger / 20 Assassin. You might be better served with 11 / 1 / 18, though, just for a little more duration. I'm not a fan of only a handful of cleric levels. It just seems like a colossal waste to me. You don't get your good +5 GMW, you don't get +5 Magic Vestments, and your Divine Favor isn't all that good, either.

Bhaal is the dead one and he was *the* assassin dude before Cyric ate his powers, if that's who you were thinking. I don't think Cyric died at all.

Cleric/assassin is a very sexy concept and I've spent some time trying to come up with ways to make it work but as Derk said, not really. I *think* there are some multiclass builds with some cleric, probably making use of divine might/favour. If anything works, those would be your best bet (I also don't know what said builds are, if they even exist)

May I suggest something with divine champion and fewer assassin levels instead? Combat emphasis synergises better with assassin than so few levels in a caster class.

Bear in mind I'm not assured of taking a large ammount of Hide and MS, or even being DEX based. I could very well dress in full plate and still be an assassin. The new powers assassins get on amia make a level 20 assassin quite an appealing concept to me. The Cleric levels would allow casting of darkness, invisibility and ultravision.

I also totally forgot about Mask as a possible god... I prefer LE as an alignment to RP.

Also totaly forgot that it's impossible to get the requirements for assassin in 10 Cleric levels... stupid me. So I guess 1 level of rogue is required to hit the 8 hide 8 ms needs.

Also, at what levels are the assassin speial abilities gained... mainly because i want them all... Murder in particular.

Assassin gives you all of those, or at least Darkness and Invisibility. Ultravision is very easily had as well. Heavy cleric will do an assassin's job more than heavy assassin can. However, I'm not advocating such a switch.

I'd recommend going Dex-based so your lack of cleric buffs doesn't hit you as hard. Divine Might/Shield is a bit of an issue since it requires an investment in Charisma, which would take away from other useful stats. It could help, though.

I would take a few monk levels too, if you're going LE. Monk gives you Discipline, which is nice...opens up the unarmed/kama attack table. The big advantage Rogue has over Monk in regards to dumping - UMD - is a non factor if one of your other classes is Assassin, which gets it too.

I got a couple of questions about Shifter.

I never had one, and i have absolutely no clue what to look at when making a build.

First of all, i'm not looking to go for Dragon Shape but rather i want to try to focus on something else like Undead or Outsider, and that's why no monk is an option.

The main questions i have is about what feats merge into shifter forms:
1. Do all class-specific active feats like i.e. Bard Song, Rage, Divine Might, Shadow Evade work while shifted?
2. Do racial and feat armor class bonuses like i.e. svirfneblin racial +3 and Armor Skin work while shifted?
3. Do other class specific feats like i.e. Sneak Attack, Evasion, Dark Blessing, Favored Enemy, DDDR [or EDR] work while shifted?

Oh, and one more thing i need to ask here because i can't seem to find where i've read about it:
4. What equipment slots merge into shifter forms? [i think i've read somewhere that all Amia forms merge the same equipment slots, i.e. armor, shield, weapon, helmet (+all the rest..?)]

1. Yes
2. Armor Skin, yes. Svirfneblin bonus, I'm not sure.
3. Yes.
4. I don't know.

I smell a munchkin.

What merges depends on the type of form you take. Those walking on four or more legs without a weapon (like basilisk) would only merge armor (armor, shield, helmet), weapon AND.. I believe that the bracers has been fixed to work in certain forms that allow all items to merge, such as drow, kobold, azer, risen lord etc. (humanoids with a weapon).

I will look into it.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

I smell a munchkin.

When did the monk-shifters stop being -the- munchkins?

Come on, i'm planning a legit custom build here. I don't want to play generic shapes with their basic stats, and i want to consider the third class carefully and which shape it would fit nicely to.

Ulir wrote:

I will look into it.

Thanks, would appreciate that.

EDIT: Oh and also, another question comes to mind i suppose:
Racial SR [Drow/Svirf] - merges?

Not sure about the drow SR and such, but I assume they would merge, but can't really check it now, sorry.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Shifter - Check out the info at the bottom.

I tested the bracers slot. It doesn't work on wyrmlings or gargoyle, but it merges with minotaur, which is the type that everything merges with.

Well, if you want a Lawful evil cleric/assassin, you can go cleric/monk/Assassin, 9/3/18, or 8/3/19, or 9/2/19... gives you kamas and if you take 3 monk levels, a bit of WIS AC and a speed boost. Personally I think 8/3/19 will work best, go 8/2/10 pre-epic.

Mind you, you need to be LE to do this. Be sure to get 14 WIS, since you'll need that for spells and WIS AC.

I have no idea if Drow/Svirf SR merges.... I know item SR can and will.

Don't take less than 9 cleric if you're really set on donig that build, btw. You're going to hate life, but it'll help you hate life a little less.

Aeqvinox wrote:

I got a couple of questions about Shifter.

I never had one, and i have absolutely no clue what to look at when making a build.

First of all, i'm not looking to go for Dragon Shape but rather i want to try to focus on something else like Undead or Outsider, and that's why no monk is an option.

The main questions i have is about what feats merge into shifter forms:
1. Do all class-specific active feats like i.e. Bard Song, Rage, Divine Might, Shadow Evade work while shifted?
2. Do racial and feat armor class bonuses like i.e. svirfneblin racial +3 and Armor Skin work while shifted?
3. Do other class specific feats like i.e. Sneak Attack, Evasion, Dark Blessing, Favored Enemy, DDDR [or EDR] work while shifted?

Oh, and one more thing i need to ask here because i can't seem to find where i've read about it:
4. What equipment slots merge into shifter forms? [i think i've read somewhere that all Amia forms merge the same equipment slots, i.e. armor, shield, weapon, helmet (+all the rest..?)]

Answere:

NWN Wiki wrote:

Weapon is any melee weapon in the main hand slot.
Items are those in the ring slots, amulet slot, cloak slot, boots slot, or belt slot.
Armor is the item in the armor slot, plus a shield if in the off-hand slot and anything in the helmet slot.
The gloves or bracers slot and the ammunition slots never merge.
Rules of thumb:

Has a weapon? Merges all.
Unarmed, stands on two legs? Merges items & armor.
Unarmed, four or more legs? Merges armor only.
Exceptions to the rule are epic manticore, spectre, death slaad lord, stone golem, and demonflesh golem.

Because only the properties of the items are taken, and the item is "removed" and unavailable in the shifted form, any penalties from armor, such as penalties on skills, do not apply when shifted. This also means that a druid/shifter/monk who had been wearing armor or using a shield prior to shifting will have their special abilities reinstated because they will no longer be wearing armor or using a shield.
All AC bonuses become deflection bonuses, and only the highest applies.
If there are multiple bonuses to an ability score, only the highest applies. For example, if the shifter was wearing elven boots (+2 dexterity), a belt of agility +2 (+2 dexterity), and bracers of agility +3 (+3 dexterity), the final dexterity bonus on the shifted form is +2: the elven boots and belt of agility do not stack, and the bracers in the glove slot do not merge at all.

Shifting will retain each of your racial bonuses/penalties to ability score (e.g. elven +2 Dex, -2Cons) for all its applications from saving throws to DC determination (with the exception of a few that directly get the ability score instead of the modifier, e.g. shifted half-orcs do not apply their racial bonus to strength against balagarn's iron horn) unless the ability corresponding to that particular bonus/penalty is changed either as a result of the shift (including item merge and stat overriding) or following the shift. Some hardcoded aspects where this does not apply include the weight associated without being encumbered (e.g. a shifted half-orc in kobold form has a reduced ability to carry items) and in skill points on level up (e.g. a shifted half-orc gets an additional skill point causing the build to no longer be legal).
Spells cannot be cast while shifted, so self-buffs must be cast before shifting.
The shifter and druid shapeshifting feats cannot be dispelled.
Spell resistance from the shapes does not stack with the monk's diamond soul feat.
Damage reduction from the shapes does not stack with other forms of damage reduction.
All of the shapes which require an epic shifter actually require greater wildshape IV. Hence, they can be taken with 10 levels of shifter as opposed to 11.

Two quick questions,

1: Is there a good availability and selection of Dwarven Waraxes for non-good, non-Dwarves throughout all levels in the module.

2: Is it worth taking Improved Critical for a 20critical range weapon like that?

1: I don't know all the new loot, but there are some dwarven waraxes around Amia that you can make use of. Worst case scenario, mythal a good base axe.

2: Improved critical always doubles your chances of a crit, so yes.

3: You shouldn't pick an axe on its availability, really. Some come in cooler shapes, sure, and it may affect people's decision in the end, but you should go with what you fancy for your character.

Astro_Black wrote:

NWN Wiki wrote:

NWNWiki says...

Many of those things have been changed for Shifters on Amia. No Monk AC powerbuilding for example.

Yup, although monk melee attack benefits work for shifter forms. A druid/shifter/monk with vampire form can be quite devastating, to mention one example.

divine might/shield works though which you can cast in shifted form. your base wisdom/int/charisma always remains while shifting so you can get really nice ac from a cleric/druid/shifter or something like that. Or blackguard? :-P

One last question about shifter:

If i wanted to focus on one specific form and take weapon feats for the weapon it uses, will they merge and work in the form?
[Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Overwhelming Critical... Weapon of Choice, Ki Critical?]

Aeqvinox wrote:

One last question about shifter:

If i wanted to focus on one specific form and take weapon feats for the weapon it uses, will they merge and work in the form?
[Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Overwhelming Critical... Weapon of Choice, Ki Critical?]

Yeah. It will work.

Something to remember is that youneed the profiency to take weapon focus in that specific weapon. So for the Undead Lich Shape you'll need exotic weapon profiency to grab focuses etc.

The nice thing though is that you can use any weapon unshaped (the weapon with the coolest stats you can find!) then when you shape, those stats will be transfered to the focused weapon your shape is holding!

Like holding a whip with 1d6 acid damage, overwhelming crits and hit chance to confuse and then changing into Lich Shape will give all those benifits on the scythe aswell as the bonus you might have from weapon focus etc. and then even letting you get a free disarm (whip) feat! (Lich weapon will always be +5 too so no need to have enchantment bonus on the weapon before shifting!)

viewtopic.php?f=20&p=934717#p934717 - Go for shifter spreadsheet.

The Risen Lord's weapon is +4 only, pretty sure about that. Can't open the shifter spreadsheet to check, since you need Excel to view it.

But that means that you need +5 AB on your weapon before you shift, in order to penetrate different barriers.

So on my brand new cleric... >_> Don't judge I told you I was an alt-aholic... this is the terrible build I came up with... be gentle it's my first time. Someone was nice enough to show me the Pretty Good Character Generator to help me plan my builds so this is what I have. I guess I should include it is a caster Cleric.

28Cl/1F/1R

Pre-Epic Feats: SF: Evoc, GrSF: Evoc, SF: Conj, Extend Spell, GrSF: Conj, Silent Spell, Maximize Spell, Extra Feat right now it's Zen Archery but I doubt that will stick.

Epic Feats: ES: Mummy Dust, ESF: Evocation, Greater Ruin, Greater Wisdom I, ESF Spot, Armor Skin, ES: Hell Ball

Starting Wis of 18 ends on 26.

Am I missing anything? Will this character be totally worthless or is that pretty good?

RP Background: She's a Cleric of Tymora, mischievous (I'm sensing a pattern here...), a gambler and just someone who takes risks, and goes out for riches and adventure. I figure the rogue level dump which was suggested made sense RP wise as she has the Trickery Domain, and I sort of picture her like a female Gambit attitude wise. You know she'll gamble and... bend the rules... but when the poop hits the fan, she'll be able to cast spells and get out of dodge. Not aiming for being able to kill players, but being able to be welcome in a group and not feeling like I'm being carried would be awesome.

Thanks for the handy info guys, much appreciated.

Last question i hope >.< Damn those shifters are complicated...

Skills. How does that work?

Let's say i have 30 ranks in hide, ESF:Hide and +30 Hide on items that will merge into Kobold form.
He now gets his +20 bonus from shape.

So i'm guessing my final Hide will be 90 while in Kobold form?

And now let's say i have +40 Hide on items. Final Hide is 90 or 100?

In other words, the skill bonuses from shapes, do they count towards +50 skill bonus cap?

DamagedneverBroken wrote:

So on my brand new cleric... >_> Don't judge I told you I was an alt-aholic... this is the terrible build I came up with... be gentle it's my first time. Someone was nice enough to show me the Pretty Good Character Generator to help me plan my builds so this is what I have. I guess I should include it is a caster Cleric.

Actually, it looks quite solid as is.

For your pre-epic feats though, if you're not going to get epic spell focus conj, then I wouldn't get it at all, there aren't a lot of conj DC spells for clerics, and you need epic focus to extend the mummy dust and dragon summons, and really, your mummy dust will be fine without. You can even take the elemental on mummy dust since it works off of Evoc.

I'd change the pre-epics to:
Pre-Epic Feats: SF: Evoc, GrSF: Evoc, Extend Spell, Silent Spell, Maximize Spell, Zen Archery, Empower Spell, Skill Focus Spot

There's a bit of variation with the last feat, I like skillfocus spot, since you're already going epic skill focus, but you can take great fort as well and give your saves a bit of a boost.

Aeqvinox wrote:

Thanks for the handy info guys, much appreciated.

Last question i hope >.< Damn those shifters are complicated...

Skills. How does that work?

Let's say i have 30 ranks in hide, ESF:Hide and +30 Hide on items that will merge into Kobold form.
He now gets his +20 bonus from shape.

So i'm guessing my final Hide will be 90 while in Kobold form?

And now let's say i have +40 Hide on items. Final Hide is 90 or 100?

In other words, the skill bonuses from shapes, do they count towards +50 skill bonus cap?

But you can't have 40 hide on items. The item with highest hide I have seen is the cloak with +15 hide/ms. Remember that only the highest stat merge into the form. If you have +5 hide on helmet and +6 hide on a ring, only the +6 will merge. You need to arrange your gear so that each part has the highest possible number of whatever given stat. Belt for str, bracers for dex, boots for con, helmet for disc + saves, rings for regen, necklace for universal saves, cloak for hide/ms/SR etc etc etc. Same goes for AC. If your chestpiece has +4 enchantment and you got a ring with +5 deflection, only the ring AC merges. Some shield armor do merge though. I recall it being the Azer and Drow shapes, so your ac will get a boost if you use a shield with AC bonus.

I don't believe that kobold hide bonus counts towards the cap. If it does, you will find you

Suffice to say you will be around 90 or so with the right gear, spells and pots.

The1Kobra wrote:

I'd change the pre-epics to:
Pre-Epic Feats: SF: Evoc, GrSF: Evoc, Extend Spell, Silent Spell, Maximize Spell, Zen Archery, Empower Spell, Skill Focus Spot

There's a bit of variation with the last feat, I like skillfocus spot, since you're already going epic skill focus, but you can take great fort as well and give your saves a bit of a boost.

Hmm! Is Empower Spell worth it on a Cleric? Checked some older threads and it seemed like for a Cleric Maximize was better hands down. The SF and GrSF Conj was for Storm of Vengeance since someone said a lot of people have really high Fort and Will saves, but reflex saves aren't always that good and getting to stun someone does sound pretty awesome. I'm not sure if they'll make that much of a difference, I just pictured the stun as an, Oh you want to kill me? Well have fun with this storm /run away while they're stunned. I don't know, this all probably works better in my head than practice. The reason I figure Zen Archery is going to go is because I just like the idea of wielding a sword. I think it's cool for the RP factor. Sure I won't be able to do the damage of a weaponsmaster, nor will I be able to beat a melee cleric or mobs of my level, but I just like the sword. >_> Any suggestions for what to change Zen Archery to? Also thank you for the advice! If it turns out SoV doesn't work the way it does in my mind according to the Wiki, that gives me 3 feats to play with, and I really do like the SkF Spot suggestion, is Great Fort worth it? Or would Luck of Heroes be better?

Maximize is always better if you can only pick one. Empowe ris more of a flexibility thing you take, especially high if you're a sorceror, and on wizards since you get the bonus feats. Druids cna spare the feat easier too. Clerics tend to be pretty feat tight, but a pure caster cleric might be easier.

Why 28 / 1 fighter / 1 rogue? Cleric 29 / Ranger 1 is better. The Ranger level at 29 gives an extra epic spell focus.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

Why 28 / 1 fighter / 1 rogue? Cleric 29 / Ranger 1 is better. The Ranger level at 29 gives an extra epic spell focus.

Actually you also get another Cleric bonus feat as well (in exchange for a Fighter bonus feat).

Cleric 28/Rogue 1/Ranger 1 nets UMD, though, along with the Epic Spell Focus.

I never needed UMD with my caster cleric, though I suppose it's not bad to have.

Ulir wrote:

Remember that only the highest stat merge into the form.
(...)

Umm, now hold on a second, that doesn't sound right.

I can't find any confirmation on what you just said:

Ulir wrote:

If you have +5 hide on helmet and +6 hide on a ring, only the +6 will merge.

True, nwn wiki and other sources indicate that only the highest AC and ability score bonuses merge, but there is no mention of skill or saving throw bonuses.

So, are you 100% sure that's what happens? I mean where did you find this information, or perhaps you've tested it yourself?

Also, i'll drop in yet another shifter question >.<:
If i have a bunch of rogue levels and 4d6 sneak attack and i shift into a kobold which gets 5d6 i believe, what will be my sneak attack dice while shifted?

EDIT: OK, srsly... here's another question. Please bear with me:
Do shapes get stronger with character level or shifter level, if at all? [meaning BAB, saves, that sort of thing]

Shifter level increases stats, but of course character levels are going to affect things like BAB, base skill ranks, etc.

A little something for y'all to sink your teeth into.

Sun Elf
18Bard/8Blackguard/4Fighter
Pre-Epic: 9Bard/8Blackguard/3Fighter
Base Attack: 22

Str: 14 (21)
Dex: 8
Con: 10
Wis: 14
Int: 14
Cha: 16

Pre-Epic: Blindfight, Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Power Attack, Cleave, Divine Might, Divine Shield, Knockdown, Improved Knockdown.

Epic: Epic Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Epic Weapon Specialization,
Armor Skin, Extend Spell.

I was thinking, maybe, possibly, if I was feeling bold, I would drop Divine Shield in favor of Lingering Song for that extra 5-Round Bardsong.

Evil Sun elf?

TormakSaber wrote:

Evil Sun elf?

Stranger individuals have existed. Though, as long as she is an Elf the concept will be satisfied.

Aeqvinox wrote:

Ulir wrote:

Remember that only the highest stat merge into the form.
(...)

Umm, now hold on a second, that doesn't sound right.

I can't find any confirmation on what you just said:

Ulir wrote:

If you have +5 hide on helmet and +6 hide on a ring, only the +6 will merge.

True, nwn wiki and other sources indicate that only the highest AC and ability score bonuses merge, but there is no mention of skill or saving throw bonuses.

So, are you 100% sure that's what happens? I mean where did you find this information, or perhaps you've tested it yourself?

Also, i'll drop in yet another shifter question >.<:
If i have a bunch of rogue levels and 4d6 sneak attack and i shift into a kobold which gets 5d6 i believe, what will be my sneak attack dice while shifted?

EDIT: OK, srsly... here's another question. Please bear with me:
Do shapes get stronger with character level or shifter level, if at all? [meaning BAB, saves, that sort of thing]

I have read several guides to shifters and have a few myself. The only property that does stack is regeneration. Regarding the sneak, the highest sneak will be used. How high your base saves, AB, everything is depends on which classes you pick pre-epic. As Tormak said, when a shifter gains a level certain things will improve, as is with all classes. Some abilities will improve as well, depending on shifter levels (spell-like abilities for shapes etc.). If you want four attacks per round for example, you need seven levels of fighter, ranger, bg, whatever you fancy in pre-epic (classes with 1 bab progression). That is if you are picking five druid levels only, mind you. You just need 16 bab at least before reaching level 21. However, the more druid levels you have, the better your spell penetration becomes. A level 5 druid/19 shifter/6 sonic the hedgehog would only have a caster level of 5, when it comes to overcoming spell resistance.

ELVES ARE NOT EVIL!

DerkDerkistan wrote:

ELVES ARE NOT EVIL!

DROW ARE NOT GOOD!

I agree completely.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

I agree completely.

How invariably bland you are. Anyways, I'd like feedback on the build and less of what her race may or may not be, it you'd be so kind as to oblige me.

Playing along with the lore is not bland.

18 bard is bad, anyway.

Please don't just swat me and say 'Bad!'! Why and what alternatives come to mind?

I'll help if you explain Evil Sun Elf.

Last edited by Zamtrack on Sun, Apr 08 2012, 3:07 AM, edited 1 time in total.

My character is an individual with her own history, perception, ambitions, values, and personality disorders. I'm not sure what kind of tasteless setting exists wherein a character is bound by the ethic and dogma attributed to their race alone, and can not be, or develop as an outlier. Especially someone who exists outside of the culture.

She ain't fresh off the boat from Evermeet.

As an aside irrelevant to the genealogy of my character, Sun Elf culture feels very evil and racially Darwinist despite what any book says.

I wouldn't say "evil", but I'd definitely say Lawful. I don't see sun elves as being very chaotic at all.

I think you should look into elven culture and lore before saying you think it sounds evil. Darwinist is probably somewhat accurate, though not in an evil sense. I'd suggest looking at Lizzie's post in the Elven Philosophy thread in the Lore forum. She explains why the elves can be viewed, as you call them, racially Darwinist.

The Chaotic over Lawful thing is obviously due to the very individualistic nature of the elves.

In any case, the Lore forum is the place for these kinds of discussions.

18 bard is bad because it does not have Lasting Inspiration. That's all the advice I'll give for that build. The elven lore monkey in me makes me disinclined to help any more, sorry.

I read Lizzie's posts and the others there in that thread, and while I see now a Sun Elf would be the least likely among all Elves to be evil, I am not convinced an Evil Elf could not exist.

The general consensus I see from that thread is that elves are still intricate individuals.

Lizzie wrote:

Another example: among the reasons some elves can be so troubled or even offended when an elf reproduces with a human is precisely because they believe that those half-blooded spirits *are* being restored to Arvanaith, and they’re sweeping along a lot of stuff that doesn’t belong. Arvanaith isn’t just sacred, it’s sacredly *elven*. It was created to serve the same purpose for elves that souls serve for other races, and for those races to intrude on it simply isn’t appropriate. They already have their own afterlife; interfering in the elven afterlife is an imposition and an injustice. Remember, elven spirits don’t just return to this stream when they die, it’s also the source of the spirits of newly created elves. Every time a half-elven spirit is restored to Arvanaith, that human influence will be inextricably commingled throughout the greater whole, and every elf that will ever be born in the future will be just a tiny bit less elven. And if human influence isn’t appropriate, imagine the impact that fiendish taint would have. When that elf-blooded tiefling dies, the twisted fragments of polluted spirit that manage to return to Arvanaith are going to echo permanently throughout the entire future of elvenkind. A snooty sun elf who’s disgusted at the thought of another elf bearing half-blooded children isn’t thinking, “How can you do that to yourself?” She’s thinking, “How can you do that to *us*? How dare you diminish us like that?”

Something I'd like to try and point out is that even if the general Elven attitude to a half-elf child is anathema to the concept of 'Arvanaith', these couplings still occur and exist despite conservative Elven attitudes toward it. Also, what about Elves who worship human gods, they exist in lore, and aren't uncommon in Amia. This is something I'd like to see discussed in a lore thread.

Anyways, now that I am done with my tiff, would you consider my build is the character was a half-elf or even a mundane human.

Is a bard without lasting inspirations invariably a bad bard?

There is nothing in -any- lore that states Sun Elves cannot be evil. Nothing. At all. There are also exceptions to every rule. I was satisfied with this to the point that Derk and Tormak should consider sending their Lore Horses to the knackery because they gone lame.

Quote:

My character is an individual with her own history, perception, ambitions, values, and personality disorders. I'm not sure what kind of tasteless setting exists wherein a character is bound by the ethic and dogma attributed to their race alone, and can not be, or develop as an outlier. Especially someone who exists outside of the culture.

She ain't fresh off the boat from Evermeet.

As an aside irrelevant to the genealogy of my character, Sun Elf culture feels very evil and racially Darwinist despite what any book says.

Perfectly fine. Reasoning?

The facts as they are:

This character isn't the standard Sun Elf taken for the +2 bonus to int wizard. Its actually a very poor subrace to append Bard or Blackguard to. Excessively poor, so some idea and thought must have gone into the characters background otherwise this would be another Durpari or Tuigan abusing character.

Its not a stretch to believe that a Sun Elfs perceptions can shift towards an evil outlook. Its not a stretch to believe that any characters perception can be skewed towards evil. That is the problem with most of the playerbase, something that I won't address here because its not the correct time to.

Shit I mean look at Elven history, when Elves go evil they do it and they do it -hard-. So get of your lore horses and put a bullet in them because Source books in an evolving online environment are for wankers who like their ivory towers. Daemonfey, Eldreth Veluthra any number of other factions and factors.

20 bard (with the 20th taken on any of 24,27, or 30) gets you Lasting Inspiration. 18 bard is so close to it that it's painful. Without Lasting Inspiration, you're torn between using your bardsong for buffing your party or cursing your enemies since it lasts only 10 rounds. With Lasting Inspiration, you can do both since it lasts 100 rounds.

And Mosh, I know that sun elves can be evil (and have been evil. Kymil Nymesin, anyone?). What I'm pointing out here is that it is actually FUN to play true to lore. You don't need to fly in the face of convention to create an interesting character. You don't need to paint yourself outside of the box to be creative. An Amia full of opposite of Lore characters creates an inverted society. That's silly to me.

MoshingChris wrote:

This character isn't the standard Sun Elf taken for the +2 bonus to int wizard. Its actually a very poor subrace to append Bard or Blackguard to. Excessively poor, so some idea and thought must have gone into the characters background otherwise this would be another Durpari or Tuigan abusing character.

Are you accusing me of putting actual thought into my character concept!? The nerve of some people...

Anyways...back to my bard question, if you see, I am not taking curse song, so is lasting inspiration still as valuable?, and if it is...

22Bard/8Blackguard?

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