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Zamtrack
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 Posted: Tue, Apr 10 2012, 5:05 AM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Jul 2010
Location: Land of Enchantment
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First all y'all peoples are tellin' me 20 Bard and now you're all saying 25+ D: It's kind of distressing.
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DerkDerkistan
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Posted: Tue, Apr 10 2012, 8:56 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Location: Earth
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Zamtrack wrote: EDIT: Wait!! IT just hit me!
20Bard/4Fighter/6Divine Champion it is then?
Divine Champion fits the concept more than Blackguard anyways since Blackguard is not an anti-paladin and kind of more like a warlock with a more divine focus. This build is just dripping with feats.
I'm thinking 14Bard/3Fighter/3Divine Champion pre-epic You want 12/4/4 for one extra BAB. Svensk says 25 Bard for the better bardsong and immunity to Greater Dispelling. 20 is fine for most places, though.
_________________
Remember when I knew a boxer, baby
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Zamtrack
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Posted: Tue, Apr 10 2012, 8:59 AM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Jul 2010
Location: Land of Enchantment
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I know that will give me better bass attack, but at the same time I'm collecting a lot of useless feeling pre-epic feats, and can I get Epic Weapon Specialization on a Divine Champion bonus feat?
Also, can I have Curse Song and Bard Song in effect at the same time?
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Jack O'Bannon
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Posted: Tue, Apr 10 2012, 11:19 AM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Nov 2008
Location: Europe
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You are not collecting useless preepic feats. As a bard you are happy for any preepic feat you can get, especially as a dev critter.
Curse Song and Extend spell are must haves.
You also want Imp. Critical, Power attack, cleave, great cleave, WF, WS, Blindfight and knockdown.
That leaves you two more which are good invested in imp knockdown (if you have 13+ int) or in saving throws or hp to even out your low con.
And yes you can get Epic weopon spec at a divine champion feat.
You also can have bard song and curse song active at the same time, which makes bards as awesome as they are in combat.
_________________
---
"Every time you play with fire, the fire plays with you.
and when you take the sword, the sword takes you, too."
Malle Malone
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Zamtrack
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Posted: Tue, Apr 10 2012, 12:52 PM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Jul 2010
Location: Land of Enchantment
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Well I gave up on Dev Crit because the strength demand was too much on an Elf. So I am not gaining much after Improved Knockdown, Curse Song, Max and Emp Spell, Weapon Focus, and Improved Critical, Blindfight
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Uncle-Opustus
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Posted: Tue, Apr 10 2012, 13:15 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Finland
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If you want Devastating Critical on your Bard, I'd go 20/6/4, because you really need the feats. Still you'd most likely start off with CON 8 at best. That's no more than a 30 HP improvement, which, if it really bothers you that much, can be fixed by proper gearing. Bard12/CoT5/Fighter3 pre-epic to maximise your epic feat yield and other funsies like saving throws however minute that may seem to the big picture. Both builds have different attributes to make them worthwhile, but admittedly the Fighter/BG is less complicated. Anyway, whichever you pick should be based on your personal preference of what the character should be like. And should you choose to leave out Dev. altogether, I'd strongly suggest you to go Bard25/Fighter4/DC1 instead with Bard16/Fighter3/DC1 pre-epic. More Bard can never go wrong and you're worthless without your buffs. EDIT: TheIncognitos wrote: It occurs to me that this build could actually wield a Dire Mace or Two Bladed Sword... that or a katana/bastard sword... dev crit is a waste here I'm assuming? So, what do you do with skills? Only epic character skills would be available. Almost missed this one. You can always pick a silly weapon, but it's like wearing high heels; unmanly. As for the skills, dunno. You won't revel in an ocean of feats or skills, so just take the ones you would for any other Cleric. I'd rather have you try this yourself as it's not straight off the assembly line. _________________  UCE THIS, YOU COW.
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Zamtrack
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Posted: Tue, Apr 10 2012, 13:50 PM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Jul 2010
Location: Land of Enchantment
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If somebody is really going to bother to dispel me, won't they be prepared for a 25+caster anyways? I mean they really don't know if I am 20 or 26, would they gamble with a lower level dispel?
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Uncle-Opustus
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Posted: Tue, Apr 10 2012, 14:40 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Finland
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There are even critters to dispel you in Amia. Trust me, better songs makes you and your party more buff.
_________________ UCE THIS, YOU COW.
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Tue, Apr 10 2012, 15:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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Uncle-Opustus wrote: There are even critters to dispel you in Amia. Trust me, better songs makes you and your party more buff. LOTS OF CRITTERS!!!
_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856
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Zamtrack
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Posted: Tue, Apr 10 2012, 15:31 PM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Jul 2010
Location: Land of Enchantment
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Hmm, I really wanted to emphasize her religious devotion, but I also don't want to be left naked with just a dispel.
Svensk...you are a critter!
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Tue, Apr 10 2012, 15:36 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Your not left naked with just a dispel, you just need to learn how to not get dispelled. Svensk makes suggestions about Bards and casters with regards to what would benefit his characters who aren't these things. If your clever you don't get dispelled in pvm and in pvp Mords is used in 99 percent of cases so your fucked anyway!
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Uncle-Opustus
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Posted: Tue, Apr 10 2012, 15:40 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Finland
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I wouldn't call Svensk that evil, but it would make your and your party's life significantly less bothersome. With a duo party I think a level 20 Bard works out better for the additional damage output. Also, there's enough Haste for two.
_________________ UCE THIS, YOU COW.
Last edited by Uncle-Opustus on Tue, Apr 10 2012, 15:40 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Zamtrack
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Posted: Tue, Apr 10 2012, 15:40 PM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Jul 2010
Location: Land of Enchantment
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Yeah, that's what I was thinking mosh, and you've never led me astray before. If somebody or some critter is going to invest in dispel its going to be mordekainens and if they're smart they're not going to gamble an entire round on a lesser dispel that may or may not work
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Vaul Tarrith
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Posted: Tue, Apr 10 2012, 16:01 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2009
Location: 9th Circle of Hell...with the steaks and Rum
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Outside the '20 Bard is a must or you shouldn't take ANY Bard' crowd, your useful 'break points' are 11 Bard (brew potion & Warcry), 15/16 (for max GMW at 15, +5 AC from song at 16), and 20+. I've even mixed in 4 or 8 Bard pre-epic specifically for an occasional boost from songs, increased Reflex & Will saves, plus some spellcraft / Tumble / UMD lovin'.
No one can tell you what works best for your character...because it's yours. However you build it, you just can't go wrong with Bard levels.
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Tue, Apr 10 2012, 20:34 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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Mosh wrote: Your not left naked with just a dispel, you just need to learn how to not get dispelled. Svensk makes suggestions about Bards and casters with regards to what would benefit his characters who aren't these things. If your clever you don't get dispelled in pvm and in pvp Mords is used in 99 percent of cases so your fucked anyway! I just think it's tedious when i need to rebuff my partymembers (Because your partymembers will get dispelled, too, you know?) everytime a flayer casts greater dispell.
_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856
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Bobo_Underhill
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Posted: Tue, Apr 10 2012, 21:01 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Location: The Drone Star State
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Mind, 25 Bard is also when you can get +6 AC from your song.
As for Greater dispel, it does help to be able to just take the hit.
_________________
Andrew Fryar: Cordor's Folk Hero
Bobrin: Eccentric Avenging Executioner
Lyle Torrowfire: Retired badass
Marigold Cobcruncher: Perceptive Priestess
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Ulir
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Posted: Tue, Apr 10 2012, 23:35 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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Aye, and bards have limited spells. Re-buffing right is not always an option, and would be pointless in certain circumstances. But sure, as someone said earlier, you can work around it if playing your cards right.
_________________ 
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Zamtrack
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Posted: Wed, Apr 11 2012, 1:04 AM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Jul 2010
Location: Land of Enchantment
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What exactly is playing your cards right in this situation?
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Ulir
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Posted: Wed, Apr 11 2012, 1:29 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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Well, the most common monster I can think that casts Greater Dispelling is the mind flayer. Playing you cards right would be to take them down immediately, although it may be hard when facing four at once. You always have Balagarn's Iron Horn.. or use the enviroment to your advantage.
_________________
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Zamtrack
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Posted: Wed, Apr 11 2012, 1:38 AM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Jul 2010
Location: Land of Enchantment
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Hmm, I was thinking even if I got dispelled the CoT and Fighter level would make a me a competent fighter enough to keep going until I could rest again.
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serbiris
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Posted: Wed, Apr 11 2012, 5:28 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Mechanicsy question. With Dragon Disciple, the str fix is applied as a penalty, but the actual str score for the purpose of say, prerequisites, is considered to be a good deal higher correct? So firstly is it possible for a DD with effective str 21 but actual str 25 to take Devcrit? And if this is possible, is it acceptable or considered an exploit?
_________________
@Thanatopsis#6293
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Wed, Apr 11 2012, 7:31 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Exploit.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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serbiris
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Posted: Wed, Apr 11 2012, 7:47 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Blast. Fair enough. *scraps goblin Bard/DC/DD build.. probably*
_________________
@Thanatopsis#6293
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Wed, Apr 11 2012, 14:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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Really? I thought the bonuses from DD counted for your base attributes. I guess NWN is just silly like that haha.
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Wed, Apr 11 2012, 19:54 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Naivatkal wrote: Really? I thought the bonuses from DD counted for your base attributes. I guess NWN is just silly like that haha. They odo, but because of legacy coding, level 10 RDD doesn't physically remove the 4 STR at level 10.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Wed, Apr 11 2012, 19:57 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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OH
So it's just the +4 that Amia removes, then? Basically if you have 21 STR and RDD10, NWN will let you take Dev Crit? Or am I messing that up?
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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serbiris
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Posted: Wed, Apr 11 2012, 20:01 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
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That's how it seems to be. Like a lot of the subrace modifiers it's basically applied as a perma-buff (or penalty), at least as far as I can tell. Or at least, it has a buff icon thingy, whatever they're supposed to be called.
But yes, when I went to up my stats on levelup after 10DD I found I "officially" had 28str when it should've been 24. Hence my question, and Mosh says exploit which implies that it does indeed work the way I thought.
_________________
@Thanatopsis#6293
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Wed, Apr 11 2012, 20:08 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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Gotcha, that makes sense. Also sad, silly Bioware :<
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Wed, Apr 11 2012, 20:16 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Nothing about bioware, everything in old, old legacy coding that sucks to remove because rebuilding every single RDD is terrifying.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Wed, Apr 11 2012, 20:18 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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OH
Well I like to blame Bioware anyways ;p
I think it'd be fun to rebuild the all. Right? .... Right?!
<_< I kid. Haha.
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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Gremin
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Posted: Wed, Apr 11 2012, 22:27 PM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Aug 2011
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Thoughts please, not sure I got this right or not
Cleric 17/ KC 5/ Fighter 6
(1) Cleric (1): Extra Turning
(2) Cleric (2):
(3) Cleric (3): Power Attack
(4) Cleric (4): +1 Charisma
(5) Cleric (5):
(6) Cleric (6): Divine Might
(7) Cleric (7):
(8) Cleric (8): +1 Wisdom
(9) Cleric (9): Divine Shield
(10) Fighter (1): Weapon Focus (LS)
(11) Fighter (2): Toughness
(12) Fighter (3): SKill focus: Discipline, +1 Wisdom
(13) Fighter (4): Weapon Spec (LS)
(14) KC (1):
(15) KC (2): Blind Fighting
(16) KC (3): +1 Wisdom
(17) KC (4):
(18) KC (5): Extend Spell
(19) Cleric (10):
(20) Cleric (11): +1 Wisdom
(21) Fighter (5): Epic Weapon Focus (LS)
(22) Fighter (6): Epic Weapon Spec (LS)
(23) Cleric (12):
(24) Cleric (13): Armor Skin, +1 Wisdom
(25) Cleric (14):
(26) Cleric (15):
(27) Cleric (16): Epic Mummy Dust
(28) Cleric (17): +1 Wisdom
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PaladinOfSune
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Posted: Wed, Apr 11 2012, 22:28 PM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: England, UK
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You can't take epic spells without being epic in cleric.
_________________  "Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Wed, Apr 11 2012, 22:30 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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PaladinOfSune wrote: You can't take epic spells without being epic in cleric. Yup, need at least 20 in your caster's stat and 21+ in your caster class, plus the spellcraft for it.
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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Gremin
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Posted: Wed, Apr 11 2012, 22:32 PM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Aug 2011
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Suggestions for replacements?
Anything else you see that could be improved upon?
Actually looking at the cleric epic choices, I only have prerequistes for Greater Wisdom I.
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Ulir
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Posted: Thu, Apr 12 2012, 8:24 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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Alright, I am interested in your oppinion on this.
If you were a druid with shape focus, would you pick greater ruin, or epic prowess? I got a druid already with dragonshape and greater ruin. It is rather lovely to be a greater ruin or hellball spewing dragon for sure, but epic prowess makes you more melee effective in general. What do you think?
_________________
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Silent2001
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Posted: Thu, Apr 12 2012, 15:15 PM |
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Player
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Location: United Kingdomshire
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Greater Ruin!
_________________  <3 MarynWe are going to die and that makes us the lucky ones.
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Mr. Hackums
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Posted: Thu, Apr 12 2012, 16:36 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 May 2008
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Greater Ruin to finish those pesky rogues!
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Bobo_Underhill
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Posted: Thu, Apr 12 2012, 18:04 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Location: The Drone Star State
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Gremin wrote: Suggestions for replacements?
Anything else you see that could be improved upon?
Actually looking at the cleric epic choices, I only have prerequistes for Greater Wisdom I. Armorskin is an epic cleric feat choice, but since you're not an epic cleric, you're not going to get epic cleric bonus feats. You're probably better served by getting mostly generic fighter-ish feats. Toughness isn't a fighter bonus feat, so you can't take it at 11.
_________________
Andrew Fryar: Cordor's Folk Hero
Bobrin: Eccentric Avenging Executioner
Lyle Torrowfire: Retired badass
Marigold Cobcruncher: Perceptive Priestess
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Aeqvinox
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Posted: Thu, Apr 12 2012, 20:14 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Location: Underdark
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Could anyone tell me what creatures (full name) are summoned by each Mummy Dust variant?
Also i'm guessing at least Outsider will be affected by caster's alignment - could you name them all aswell?
Thanks
_________________
Mark it zero!
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Ulir
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Posted: Fri, Apr 13 2012, 0:20 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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The outsiders names are Peter Winfrey, Paula Abdul and Burt Reynolds.
The good outsider is an Arcadian Avenger. The neutral is a Githzerai (the monk types from that chaos plane they share with the slaadi I can't remember).
_________________
Last edited by Ulir on Fri, Apr 13 2012, 4:41 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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DerkDerkistan
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Posted: Fri, Apr 13 2012, 3:25 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Location: Earth
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Corruptor of Fate is the evil one.
_________________
Remember when I knew a boxer, baby
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TheIncognitos
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Posted: Fri, Apr 13 2012, 7:57 AM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Feb 2012
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does taking 6 levels of bard, 6 levels of SD and 18 levels of assassin make me a twit?
I was horribly dissapointed to discover that 12 levels of cleric and 18 levels of assassin would be just suckfull.
_________________
Jess Incognto:- F.L.A.G. Hag
Will Forrest:- Ranger Danger
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DerkDerkistan
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Posted: Fri, Apr 13 2012, 8:08 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Location: Earth
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I'd say 5 rogue / 6 SD / 19 assassin would be better. Your BAB will be balls, though. At least you get an extra 4d6 sneaks out of HiPS and +1 DC on your assassin goodies.
_________________
Remember when I knew a boxer, baby
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D4rk5p1d3r
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Posted: Fri, Apr 13 2012, 8:11 AM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Oct 2011
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Bard adds shield profiency which is now a must have since you can't HIPS spam, and it also adds a Disipline dump. The song boosts your rather crappy ab a little bit, which can help in certain cituations. It also has the potential for requesting custom bard spells that could perhaps alter your assasin disguise?
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DamagedneverBroken
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Posted: Fri, Apr 13 2012, 17:55 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Mar 2012
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All this talk of bards really makes me want to create one. >_> So my question is can I get a list of the bare essentials a good main class bard should take? I don't want someone to do an entire build for me just explain the basics of building an effective melee bard and then I'll go from there. ^_^
_________________ Magic? Magic!? Who needs magic!? I have the power of SCIENCE! - me Office Hours: (When I can be online in Amia) Saturdays only for a while.  Characters: Azurlana Flowers (Main), Alarkadaiel Silversong (Probably Retired), Lydia Grey
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Herr Delta Houdini
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Posted: Fri, Apr 13 2012, 18:11 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jun 2008
Location: England
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Bard26/fighter4, Charisma based:
Curse, WF, Extend, Maximise, blind fight, Imp Crit, KD, Imp KD, Weapon Spec +1 free feat, or 2 if you're Human.
Same layout, Dev crit:
Curse, WF, Extend, Maximise, blind fight, Imp Crit, KD, Power attack, Cleave, Great Cleave. +1 feat if you're Human, again.
Just some suggestions.
There're better combinations out there, but I think these are quite standard. I'm sure others can come up with better class mixes.
_________________
Ael'thil Rilyn'tlithar
Previously known as: Anubis
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Fri, Apr 13 2012, 18:16 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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30 Bard.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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serbiris
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Posted: Fri, Apr 13 2012, 18:38 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
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The very basics? Charisma score needs to be 16(+?), and 20+ levels of bard is ideal. The last 10 levels could be used for a prestige class (Dragon Disciple, Shadowdancer, maybe Palemaster I guess?) or fighter. Dex-based is common (especially for SD bards, who can get epic dodge) and will yield an almost untouchable bard with teeny tiny damage output (don't forget to take weapon finesse! And since you're already a pansy no one will judge you for taking rapier). Str-based is a better choice for damage, I think they can go devcrit which takes care of output and reasonable AC with either dex buffs or armour that permits casting. Not sure if you consider ~20 bard to be bard-heavy but it is enough to get most of the goodies (dispellable, though).
Curse song is virtually essential, needs to be taken on a bard level I think? Your 20th bard level should be taken during epic to get Lasting Inspiration, which is also pretty essential.
_________________
@Thanatopsis#6293
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Bobo_Underhill
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Posted: Fri, Apr 13 2012, 22:41 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Location: The Drone Star State
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The only real requirement for a heavy bard is Lasting inspiration, extend spell, curse song and maximize spell. Aside from that, pretty much along the lines of any other melee build.
Fighter, Divine champion and KC go well with it.
Bards can certainly go dev crit. I have one. AC can end up at mid-50s with a two-hander or dual-weild and 60+ with a shield, on top of 50% concealment.
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Andrew Fryar: Cordor's Folk Hero
Bobrin: Eccentric Avenging Executioner
Lyle Torrowfire: Retired badass
Marigold Cobcruncher: Perceptive Priestess
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QPR
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Posted: Sat, Apr 14 2012, 12:57 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Location: Norway
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Norse Skald; the best i can come up with is a Bard 25/Knight Commander 5. Anything I should be aware of there?
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"Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II
Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger
Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes
Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.
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