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Yeah, 2e had Paladins as Human only, I think. It was lame and I'm glad they lifted the restrictions both in 3e and 4e.

is there guidelines to a paladin of sune, given sune is CG yet has LG paladins is a little funny.

Last edited by Gunz on Sun, Apr 11 2010, 8:39 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Gexx44 wrote:

is there guidelines to a paladin of sune, given sune is CG yet has LG paladins is a little funny.

Quote:

The church also has a small affiliated knightly order of fighters, paladins, and bards who serve to guard temples and holy sites along with the clergy and who sometimes pursue quests to do good work in Sune's name to promote her faith.

From: http://www.nj-pbem.com/data/Gods/humangods/Sune.htm

I learnt something new today.

Red Knight Paladins exist. Though they probably fail at stratergy massively given they won't make the hard choice.

Well yeah. Lawful Neutral.

Hah, I just realized I quoted Tormak instead of Gexx. ::fixes::

Selvec Darkon wrote:

I learnt something new today.

Red Knight Paladins exist. Though they probably fail at stratergy massively given they won't make the hard choice.

They can still strategize, just not as openly as others could. Luckily though, the Red Knight isn't just about strategy. She's also a goddess of planning and tactics.

any guidelines to playing a paladin of Azuth?
I remember reading something about them at the 3rd edition campaign setting, under the special paladin orders title.

I thought this question was appropriate here because its about paladins

do paladins of tyr have a colour?

Blue, purple, grey, silver....these are the colors of Tyr.

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

Selvec Darkon wrote:

I learnt something new today.

Red Knight Paladins exist. Though they probably fail at stratergy massively given they won't make the hard choice.

They can still strategize, just not as openly as others could. Luckily though, the Red Knight isn't just about strategy. She's also a goddess of planning and tactics.

*Big breath, and exhale*

I...know...

Jacks_Vengeance wrote:

I thought this question was appropriate here because its about paladins

do paladins of tyr have a colour?

Blue, purple and white are the colors used by his clergy.

Quote:

Priestly Vestments: The vestments of Tyr are blue and purple robes with a white sash. A white glove or gauntlet is worn on the left hand and a black one on the right to symbolize the loss of the god's right hand.

Adventuring Garb: For everyday use, most priests of Tyr wear armor or practical clothing adorned on the shoulders and back with the symbol of the hammer and scales of Tyr.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

*Big breath, and exhale*

I...know...

That was actually more for others reading so they don't get the wrong impression of who she is, not really for you. You're the War Knight leader, I would hope you'd know.

TormakSaber wrote:

Yeah, 2e had Paladins as Human only, I think. It was lame and I'm glad they lifted the restrictions both in 3e and 4e.

I prefered it when it was only humans who could be paladins. Just because it would prevent bad feelings/headaches/stuff everytime someone makes an elf paladin of some elven god who does not support paladins.

But it is just me being nitpicky.

We ought to give that a run on the server. Humans would finally outnumber other races!

No. I wasn't a fan of the restrictions then, and I'm still not.

And on that note, in case it's not obvious from the pieces themselves: none of this is normative in the sense that it imposes any restrictions. It is normative only in the sense that what is described therein is possible and no one can tell you otherwise. Other possibilities exist as well, of course.

This only applies to what's posted so far, since they were accepted by the team as Amian canon. If and when I get around to writing more, they may or may not be DM-approved. I have more important things to do now, though.

Could this be posted to R&L, by the way? It was comissioned (I believe on Nekh's initiative), written and approved as canon lore for Amia. I'm kinda finished with the series and am no longer in a position to create new Amialore anyway, so it's a bit bothersome to dig it up over and over again when questions come up.

Tyr, Torm, Ilmater, Salandra, Hoar and Mystra. I believe that's all that was ever written, unless something's forgotten in the depths of the DM forums.

Not lore until the team puts their collective stamp of approval on it! But I have (obviously) moved it. :p

Silent2001 wrote:

Not lore until the team puts their collective stamp of approval on it! But I have (obviously) moved it. :p

That's cool. There is a topic somewhere in Whimsy where each of these was posted at the time of writing before publication, but since the team is quite different they might need a review. I imagine you'll find it just by searching some line from one of the write-ups.

That was a bad move. nothing should be moved to Lore until it ALREADY has our stamp. If it's not, then no.

TormakSaber wrote:

That was a bad move. nothing should be moved to Lore until it ALREADY has our stamp. If it's not, then no.

To be fair, this does. There's no question about whether this is canon Amialore. It's just a question of whether you want to retcon it or not.

Dunno when the lore discussion forum described in the sticky post here became a one-way information channel, though. The rules of this forum state that DMs may outrule existing lore, but that doesn't mean it's not valid without approval. Seems like you have your own idea about what this forum is and how it should be moderated, but it's not the policy outlined in the public sticky.

"This is an OOC forum for any subjects pertaining to the lore of Amia or Forgotten Realms in its entirety." Seems to apply here. It doesn't say "This is a forum for questions directed at DMs and their bureucratically approved statements." You wanted it to be that when it was suggested, but that's just you.

Quote:

Be respectful in your discussion and anything Amian DMs state take precedence over any written or oral third party lore source.
Do not spam with off-topic chatter.

Don't start a pissing match here, Iron.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

Be respectful in your discussion and anything Amian DMs state take precedence over any written or oral third party lore source.
Do not spam with off-topic chatter.

Don't start a pissing match here, Iron.

Exactly. Two points for you to take note of:
"Be respectful."
"Do not spam with off-topic chatter."

Your quote enforces my point: canon or previous DM lore is prima facie justified until such a time it is overruled by a specific DM statement. If you ask me what year the Standing Stone was raised, I can look up the answer and post it without consulting you. If you choose to say otherwise, it will take precedence over the book answer, but that's only if you do.

I'm basically now asking the team if they will move this to where it was originally intended to be (as this came up in another lore topic and I had to do a forum search to find the Amialore answer), and they can now choose to overrule it. If you do, then your new lore takes precedence. If you don't, this stands. I don't see the problem here.

So yeah, don't start a pissing match here, Tormak. We'll wait for the team vote.

You will quickly find your posting privleges revoked if you keep it up, Iron. That was your only warning.

I moved this because it was to be discussed whether or not it would become lore, Iron, not because it is lore.

About the paladins of Corellon Larethian

Closest I came up with was:

Champion of Corellon Larenthian.

Races of the Wild page: 113

Somewhere I read that those elfs who are lawful choose deities that allow becoming paladins, and usually outside of elven pantheon. And I dont know if Amia uses that book, however, it is the closest class I got to paladin with elven deity.

Also Sehahine has knightly order, The Knights of the Seven Sacred Mysteries (Sehanine Moonbow followers)
Whether that is true or not, I don't know.

Edit: Also the Corellon's blessing feat mentions paladin class stacks with the ability.. But with the rule there shouldn't be paladin of Corellon in first place.

And after some more reading:

Races of the Wild page: 155

Elf Paladin

There's a very recent topic concerning the elf paladin question already.

Paladins of Corellon exist on Amia.

Races of the Wild is a core product though, with different rules concerning the divine and different elven culture. There are also plenty of knightly orders, most deities have them, but they usually consist of Fighters, Clerics, maybe some Divine Champions, and Paladins only if the deity sponsors them.

I will be writing up a canon topic with the input of other DM's and sticky/locking it in the lore forum addressing the popular and cultural normatives for Paladins of the Realms and Amian Paladins specifically.

That will actually be quite helpful, thank you Moshing.

I don't play Illyana as much as I ought but having a solid normative and standard to work off of will be helpful.

Can selune have paladins?

Yossarin wrote:

Yes.

Wat? She's chaotic good!

Oh. Follow up question btw - Does she have any noteworthy paladinorders?

Fangshields.

Yes, supposedly one. Possibly other, unnamed ones but I doubt it; paladins still seem to be a minority in her church. I imagine what other paladins exist in her faith, they work solo under the local clergy or in knightly orders of mixed faiths and/or classes. But then again, that probably applies to most paladins: there aren't that many exlusive paladin orders for single faiths, because there rarely are that many paladins of a specific god in a certain area. That'd only be possible near large population centers, I imagine.

Champions of Valor. Order of the Crescent Moon. It is a joint order of dwarves worshiping Clangeddin and humans worshiping Selûne. There are apparently paladins of both faiths in the order. Formed in Impiltur to fight werewolves or something, IIRC.

Oh, supposedly two. Never heard of the Fangshields. Googling shows them to have Selûnite werewolves? No idea if they're paladins, maybe there's some Amian history about them?

The Knight of the Blue Moon prestige class might also be interesting and can be found in the Waterdeep, City of Splendours.

The Fangshield are a unique organization of Selunites, Nobanionites and Luruean. The group includes Paladins of Selune and Nobanion.

IronAngel wrote:

Champions of Valor. Order of the Crescent Moon. It is a joint order of dwarves worshiping Clangeddin and humans worshiping Selûne. There are apparently paladins of both faiths in the order. Formed in Impiltur to fight werewolves or something, IIRC.

Oh, supposedly two. Never heard of the Fangshields. Googling shows them to have Selûnite werewolves? No idea if they're paladins, maybe there's some Amian history about them?

Fangshields:

Quote:

The Fangshields is a widespread organization of good-aligned
monsters and talking beasts dedicated to watching and guarding
the places where “civilized” races do not dwell, and countering
the actions of evil monsters and organizations. While most of
them act alone, from time to time they assemble in small groups
all over Faerûn, searching for news of evil monsters and their
plans—and striking to kill when they have the advantage.

And some more information curtailing the players from thinking the Fangshields accept Humanoids

Quote:

Most Fangshields members worship Lurue, Nobanion, or Selûne,
but some serve other deities. They welcome any nonhumanoid
good creature into their ranks, as well as lycanthropes and other
occasionally humanoid creatures; this more for practicality than
because of prejudice against civilized folk, because some members
have a hard time telling humanoids apart, and they worry that
evil spies could infi ltrate their company in the guise of friends.

The Order of the Crescent Moon isn't the proof of Selunite Paladins, the proof could be more easily contrived from the Fellowship of the Purple Staff. It formed around a core group of Helmite, Selunite and Chauntean Clerics in 1368DR and quickly attracted Paladins of all three faiths. Following that followers of Lathander and Sune joined and though there was some initial resistance from the followers of Nobanion, issues were smoothed over and the Fellowship now consists of the followers of Helm, Lathander, Sune, Selune, Nobanion and Chauntea. The purpose of the Fellowship is to establish a theocractic democracy in the wildlands north of Turmish that strikes a balance between the natural and civilised worlds called the Holy Realm.

Also Dyltharra of Algarond was actually a Paladin of Selune so. . .

Fellowship of the Purple Staff seems to be one of those numerous cases where some of the members are paladins and some of them are Selûnites, but whether the two groups overlap is unspecified. Though given that the existance of Selûnite paladins has been established with the mass of evidence from other sources, I guess they probably do have Selûnite paladins.

I think the best evidence in Champions of Valor is the Crescent Moon Knight paladin substitution levels, though. The order description itself leaves room for doubt, but the substitution class speaks exclusively of paladins of Clangeddin and Selûne. (CoV page 37.) The Purple Staff equivalent are cleric substitution levels.

Dyltharra is a new one. Very interesting, and that seems to settle it for good. The existance of an actual, named NPC is always much stronger evidence than the abstract theorizing of new classes etc.

So yeah. Every LN, LG and NG deity can have paladins, and to that list we've safely added Selûne, Sune and Corellon Larethian. I would very much like to add those True Neutral deities who allow every alignment and whose churches have a lot of leeway interpreting the faith: Oghma, Grumbar and Kossuth all seem to allow for a LG interpretation (not so much Akadi and Istisha, but who knows). They do have LG clerics and Divine Champions, after all. And a LG monk order, in the case of Kossuth. Too bad there's no evidence for their existance.

MoshingChris wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

Champions of Valor. Order of the Crescent Moon. It is a joint order of dwarves worshiping Clangeddin and humans worshiping Selûne. There are apparently paladins of both faiths in the order. Formed in Impiltur to fight werewolves or something, IIRC.

Oh, supposedly two. Never heard of the Fangshields. Googling shows them to have Selûnite werewolves? No idea if they're paladins, maybe there's some Amian history about them?

Selûne certainly seems to get around. More relevant to a discussion of lycanthropes than paladins, there's also an order of werecats associated with her and Sharess called the Eyes of Evening that hunt Sharrans on nights of the full moon (Powers & Pantheons, p.54).

Selûne is popular and has a huge following.

Yup. Between Selune, Shar and Chauntea, you have the three oldest faiths on Toril. The Chauntean faith is probably the most popular faith on Toril as a whole.

playing a selunite paladin which is also a werewolf should not take long to get you fallen, no?

Do good 29 days of the month then kill/maim and butcher during fullmoon.
Well, unless they are natural lycantrophes - but then they should be evil!?!

I am so confused.

Natural Lycanthropes don't have a set alignment restriction but Werewolf Paladins seem odd to me.

Nobanion actually has an order of Werelion and Wemic Paladins which is far cooler than any mere Selunite trash you can think of.

God. How did the afflicted Werewolve curse work now again?

And i would believe it to be possible, as long as said paladin actually did something to prevent himself from going ballistic on innocents, eh?

Gunz wrote:

Yup. Between Selune, Shar and Chauntea, you have the three oldest *human* faiths on Toril.

FTFY.

Werewolf Paladins sound ridiculous to me. That's literally jumping from their natural pull toward CE and going for the complete opposite in LG. I've never cared for opposite alignment characters. They've always felt very forced to me.

Lizzie wrote:

Gunz wrote:

Yup. Between Selune, Shar and Chauntea, you have the three oldest *human* faiths on Toril.

FTFY.

That doesn't really fix anything. Those three faiths were before any other faiths on Toril. Selune, Shar and Chauntea existed before any people did. The Elven, Dwarven, Gnomish, Hin, Orc, etc. gods came some time after.

Selune, Shar, and Chauntea certainly did exist before any other gods, but you specifically said on Toril.

Gunz wrote:

That doesn't really fix anything. Those three faiths were before any other faiths on Toril. Selune, Shar and Chauntea existed before any people did. The Elven, Dwarven, Gnomish, Hin, Orc, etc. gods came some time after.

Ah, I get you. I was reading your word "faiths" as "institutionalized churches," which, of course, wouldn't have existed before there were people to institutionalize them.

Has the DM team discussed and voted on this, as promised?

To summarize previous posts and defend the importance of these articles: following unclarity on what should be possible in paladin RP, I was asked (or offered myself, don't remember) to write some additional fluff about paladins. It was such that it wouldn't introduce any additional restrictions and thus condemn nobody's RP as "wrong", and it would only show the reality of NPC paladins. Thus I was careful to use words like "generally", "most paladins", "it is typical" etc.

Mosh raised some concerns that these were too much like telling people how to play, but the opposite is the case: they protect players from arbitrary judgement and tighter opinions by showing that, in fact, these kinds of things happen canonically. If you want to play a different kind of paladin, you are free to do so, but these articles offer some undisputed background you can safely rely on if you're not sure what to do. Paladins are an extremely disputed subject in the history of D&D, and I think these articles thread a careful middle road stepping on as few toes as possible.

The actual information contained in the articles is mostly canon, with some added clarifications and developed themes. This is basically stuff like the canon difference in the church and dogma interpretation of Hoar in the North and the East, and then figuring out how paladins would probably fit into that difference. (More of them would roam around the North dealing poetic justice, whereas the more sardonnic church of the East offers many challenges for a paladin to fit in - but the option is left open.)

So basically: these articles don't close any doors, they only make sure some stay open. Their purpose is to both inspire and protect players, and give DMs some common idea on how paladins are viewed here without restricting their judgement power in individual cases. I posted them to the DM team's approval when they were first written, and the only reason they're not already in R&L is that I'm a lazy bum who resigned before he got around to finishing the series.

And to be honest, I put a lot of effort into the series and I'm pretty proud of it. Of all the lore I wrote for Amia, these articles are the best. It would be very nice of you to confirm its relevance. I'm still happy to revise any specifics you have a problem with. All I ask is that their status as Amialore is confirmed for good, even if you don't want it in R&L for logistical reasons. Just read them, discuss and vote on them, and give your stamp of approval if they're acceptable as is. Pretty please?

Paladins of the Realms

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