AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Teach a Man to Fish topic (Build topic):

I will say that lacking divination with a researchy wizard is a huge, huge huge pain. But it's not an insurmountable pain, and having to think outside the box is kind of fun as opposed to "I divine the answer". Though it would definitely be nice to be able to observe intangible things without having to put your face (or someone else's I guess) in them.

But yeah you specialize for the RP because the mechanics of specialization are kind of unfavourable, losing a whole school is a big deal and I *think* (have been told by someone who I consider dubious in regards to facts) that spell slots cap anyway, making the benefit kind of pointless after low levels.

If spell slots cap, I've never hit that cap. In the spellbook menu, I've had spell levels with two rows of slots. More spell slots is always good, but you're right. Specializing is for RP.

I'm pretty sure if spells cap, you'd only hit it if you ha dlike 200 intelligence. You won't have any issues on Amia.

serbiris wrote:

I *think* (have been told by someone who I consider dubious in regards to facts) that spell slots cap anyway, making the benefit kind of pointless after low levels.

I have two specialized wizards and it's a HUGE help to have one more slot across the board. Particularly when you -just- gain a new spell level. But maybe it's only a big deal for slow levelers like me. Since it's a build thread, I will say losing Illusion school can be pretty painful as you lose three good spells in NWN (Improved Invis, Shadowshield, Greater Sanctuary).

If you meet the spellslot cap you break the game and corrupt the character. This isn't going to happen to anyone here though, as it requires hitting 253 spellslots across all the 10 circles.

As for which specialization is the best, I'd say illusion, as you only really lose one crappy henchman (E.G. usually like a Frost Giant Chieftain) and uber party buffing.

Bini wrote:

If you meet the spellslot cap you break the game and corrupt the character. This isn't going to happen to anyone here though, as it requires hitting 253 spellslots across all the 10 circles.

As for which specialization is the best, I'd say illusion, as you only really lose one crappy henchman (E.G. usually like a Frost Giant Chieftain) and uber party buffing.

I almost want to know if you did this...and how.

LedaMarie wrote:

Bini wrote:

If you meet the spellslot cap you break the game and corrupt the character. This isn't going to happen to anyone here though, as it requires hitting 253 spellslots across all the 10 circles.

As for which specialization is the best, I'd say illusion, as you only really lose one crappy henchman (E.G. usually like a Frost Giant Chieftain) and uber party buffing.

I almost want to know if you did this...and how.

#1 Console
#2 DebugMode 1
#3 SetCHA/INT 300
#4 !!!U%I!KFMN!FJK!FPK!JFN!B

Would be nice to see the schools tweaked so that you could have evocation, necromancy or abjuration as your opposed/banned school aswell, I would eagerly give up one of those at any time.

Anyway, so if I got this straight, from a pure build point of view, specializing yields no meaningfull benefit, except in lower levels with small number of spell slots, so its better to stay as a generalist.

But from RP point of view, if you have a desire to play your wizard as a master of a specific school, then its far better having the school chosen as your speciality, rather than just having spell focuses for it.

Cheers for the answers, this will help my future wizards a good deal

Quote:

Would be nice to see the schools tweaked so that you could have evocation, necromancy or abjuration as your opposed/banned school aswell, I would eagerly give up one of those at any time.

Not possible.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

Would be nice to see the schools tweaked so that you could have evocation, necromancy or abjuration as your opposed/banned school aswell, I would eagerly give up one of those at any time.

Not possible.

Quote:

Module builders can customize which schools are opposed to each other by editing spellschools.2da and including it in a hak pak for use with their module.

From NWNWiki, and looking at the file itself it doesn't seem terribly difficult at all. That's from a feasibility standpoint however, there would certainly be some balance considerations.

Even if it was a quick 2da switching affair, what would be the point? The school a wizard specializes in should be picked based on the appropriateness to the character and their morals, not which school hurts the least to lose.

Bini wrote:

Even if it was a quick 2da switching affair, what would be the point? The school a wizard specializes in should be picked based on the appropriateness to the character and their morals, not which school hurts the least to lose.

I think the point is he was wanting those schools to be on the list of 'not available' when you pick another school. It's pretty retarded that Conjuration is on there three times and Illusion twice lol

NinjaClarinet wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

Would be nice to see the schools tweaked so that you could have evocation, necromancy or abjuration as your opposed/banned school aswell, I would eagerly give up one of those at any time.

Not possible.

Quote:

Module builders can customize which schools are opposed to each other by editing spellschools.2da and including it in a hak pak for use with their module.

From NWNWiki, and looking at the file itself it doesn't seem terribly difficult at all. That's from a feasibility standpoint however, there would certainly be some balance considerations.

O... call me wrong then.... I thought it was hardcoded.

Naivatkal wrote:

I think the point is he was wanting those schools to be on the list of 'not available' when you pick another school. It's pretty retarded that Conjuration is on there three times and Illusion twice lol

Yeah exactly. Losing conjuration or illusion is annoying to say the least, I would eagerly have the chance to give up the entire offensive arsenals from necromancy or evocation by being a divination/abjuration specialist, or which ever school would oppose them realistically.

A wizard who cant shoot a fireball, now thats something...

bioware did it that way on purpose, they didn't want you getting rid of your offensive spells because in the campaign, that's all a wizard has. His summons are crap, so that's probably why the conjuration is on there 3 times. You can't beat a game about destroying every evil person without the ability to kill anything, afterall.

I'm wondering if a typical paladin23/KC5/monk1 or any KC build could ever become Dev.Crit. or Great Smiter. Any attempt offline was a fail. Suggestions ? Or KC are meant to be supportive and not front line soldiers ?

Take the aasimar out of the equation and you'll be able to make it a Dev Critting machine. As for a Great Smiter, that sort of build just doesn't come together well with only 30 levels unless you take Divine Champion.

1) Paladin, Power Attack, Toughness
2) Paladin
3) Paladin, Skill Focus Discipline
4) Paladin
5) Paladin
6) Knight Commander, Cleave
7) Knight Commander
8) Knight Commander
9) Knight Commander, Great Cleave
10) Knight Commander
11) Paladin
12) Paladin, Divine Might
13) Paladin
14) Paladin
15) Paladin, Divine Shield
16) Paladin
17) Paladin
18) Paladin, Improved Critical
19) Paladin
20) Paladin
21) Paladin, Great Strength
22) Paladin
23) Paladin
24) Paladin, Overwhelming Critical
25) Paladin
26) Paladin
27) Paladin, Great Strength
28) Rogue
29) Rogue
30) Paladin, Devastating Critical, Armor Skin

STR: 16
DEX: 8
CON: 10
INT: 14
WIS: 14
CHA: 14

*sighs* My current paladin is an aasimar. I can't rebuild it ^^ Oh, boy, but thanks. However, it's a "caster" paladin, with extended spell. Are you sure about the aasimar sub race ?

On a paladin intended to use Devastating Critical, human is a better choice than Aasimar, regardless of whether it is KC or not. As for if it will work, it does, just with less skillpoints.

1) Paladin, Power Attack, Toughness
2) Paladin
3) Paladin, Skill Focus Discipline
4) Paladin
5) Paladin
6) Knight Commander, Cleave
7) Knight Commander
8) Knight Commander
9) Knight Commander, Great Cleave
10) Knight Commander
11) Paladin
12) Paladin, Divine Might
13) Paladin
14) Paladin
15) Paladin, Divine Shield
16) Paladin
17) Paladin
18) Paladin, Improved Critical
19) Paladin
20) Paladin
21) Paladin, Armor Skin
22) Paladin
23) Paladin
24) Paladin, Overwhelming Critical
25) Paladin
26) Paladin
27) Paladin, Great Strength
28) Paladin, Devastating Critical
29) Monk

Abilities (before Aasimar modifiers are added):

STR: 17
DEX: 8
CON: 11
INT: 14
WIS: 12
CHA: 12

Hmm... that's because we're not talking about extended spell. I don't know but sometimes I think extended spell is better then Dev. Crit.

Melee builds that lack any of the feats Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Focus, OR Epic Prowess make my teeth hurt.

That one's missing ALL THREE! I think you have to ask yourself if Dev Crit is worth +4 AB...and I think you have to answer 'HELL NO'...

*edit* I guess you're buff-dependent on this build tho, right? I always forget about Paladin buffs (only time I touch a Paladin is with a knife in the back) so that'd take AB to ~ 48 or more...so, nevermind. Still makes baby Jesus cry...

Not to forget Blind Fight!

Asking about a Paladin with KC gets you that junk. Personally, I don't feel that the Knight Commander class was aimed at combining with a class that is already a holy knight, but rather to allow mundane Fighters to benefit from a mechanical investment in charisma. The Paladin build I'd put my money on is this one, though:

1) Paladin, Power Attack, Cleave
2) Paladin
3) Paladin, Divine Might
4) Paladin
5) Fighter, Great Cleave
6) Paladin, Divine Shield
7) Paladin
8) Paladin
9) Paladin, Weapon Focus
10) Paladin
11) Paladin
12) Paladin, Blind Fight or Extend Spell or Extra Turning
13) Paladin
14) Paladin
15) Paladin, Improved Critical
16) Paladin
17) Paladin
18) Paladin, Extra Turning or Blind Fight or Extend Spell
19) Paladin
20) Paladin
21) Fighter, Great Strength , Epic Weapon Focus
22) Rogue
23) Fighter
24) Fighter, Weapon Specialization, Epic Weapon Specialization
25) Fighter
26) Fighter, Armor Skin
27) Fighter, Great Strength
28) Fighter, Overwhelming Critical
29) Rogue
30) Paladin, Devastating Critical

Lots of minmaxing in that build. It could be painful

Bini wrote:

Asking about a Paladin with KC gets you that junk. Personally, I don't feel that the Knight Commander class was aimed at combining with a class that is already a holy knight, but rather to allow mundane Fighters to benefit from a mechanical investment in charisma. The Paladin build I'd put my money on is this one, though:

Naivatkal wrote:

Paladin(24), Rogue(1), Knight Commander(5), Halruaan
STR: 14 (16)
DEX: 8
CON: 12
WIS: 13 (14)
INT: 16
CHA: 14 (18)

01: Paladin(1): Power Attack, Weapon Focus: Longsword
03: Paladin(3): Divine Shield
06: Paladin(6): Toughness
09: Paladin(9): Extend Spell
12: Paladin(12): Skill Focus: Discipline
15: Paladin(15): Divine Might
16: Knight Commander(1)
18: Knight Commander(3): Improved Critical: Longsword
20: Knight Commander(5)
21: Paladin(16): Epic Weapon Focus: Longsword
24: Paladin(19): Blind Fight
27: Paladin(22): Epic Prowess
28: Paladin(23): Armor Skin
29: Rogue(1)
30: Paladin(24): Epic Fortitude

That works, too, on a Halruaan though with some RP needed tweaking. Just sayin. And yes I know Blind Fight is in epic, I decided the rest of the feats were more important. KC works perfectly fine on a Paladin depending on what you want to do. If you want to strangle the build for feats, it's going to be tough.

I always thought Dev Crit was silly on the feat-starved Paladin. It's like doing a Barbarian with it without using Fighter for extra feats.

You don't really need Dev.crit on any STR build. And especially not on a paladin.
All you need is EWS and a 10CHA modifier Divine Might. You'll do enough damage to compete with a Weaponmaster (I know because i often see Baden Ironbloods Paladin outcrit my Weaponmaster)

Hmm.. thank you all. I guess my current aasimar paladin23/monk1/KC5 with extended spell seems to be better. Dev.Crit sounds silly in this case. I took extended spell probably instead of Epic Fortitude or epic weapon specialization. I'm still happy, it seems. Not the best damage, but still resilient.

I'm toying with a few ideas for a druid here, so I have a few questions.

Would a druid 24 / monk 6 work well at all? More druid would be better? Worse?

Are the elemental shapes viable at all for combat?

druid 21 with emd is enough to get by so 24 just makes for a better pet, the elemental shapes are situational at best, at worst completely useless.

Oh, juicy. I haven't got the foggiest about how the druid shapes work in practice and whether they've been fiddled to suit Amian standards, but I do know that Monk AC doesn't function when shifted into anything. At least that's what it says in the modifications and, alas, those pages seldom lie. I also doubt the elemental shapes make use of Monk BAB, so in the end the only monky contributions would be movement bonus and the summation of being big and having IKD. But I could be wrong. And if I'm wrong, it's actually quite nice.

But, you know, with all the new tricks Druid was given it may work out with a staff or so. How awesome is that?

Yeah, I know a lot of the monk stuff turns off in shapes. I'm just looking for something viable in a few different situations. And the shapes interest me.

Then I guess the answer is: Not worth building around, you'd do better less shapey. They can give you some edge, but if you're a Druid24/Monk6, you might as well dualwield kamas and rarely, if ever, do worse than you would had you done the shape-thing.

The shapes are neat enough. A shame that weapon bonuses don't merge. Otherwise they would be fine. I use them occasionally. Works rather well on mobs with no or little DR. Or just for the sake of boosting your AC, AB or such. IKD and you are set.

24/6 would be fine. Giving you a very decent AC if you wish to use a staff only. However I would recommend having a shield handy when shifting.

Very_Svensk wrote:

You don't really need Dev.crit on any STR build. And especially not on a paladin.
All you need is EWS and a 10CHA modifier Divine Might. You'll do enough damage to compete with a Weaponmaster (I know because i often see Baden Ironbloods Paladin outcrit my Weaponmaster)

Are you crazy ? I mean... reading it again you're saying that +4 to all damage is that worth and the critical would fly to the same lvl as a weaponmaster ? I'm wondering now what I did miss about EWS.

It's not the epic weapon spec that's bringing your damage up that high, it's the Divine Might.

Im a fan of the strength build paladin. Sure dev crit was a big nerf to any strength based melee build but do it right you can track up about 60 ab and ac with enough damage to boot

To be clear about Dev Crit, though: it isn't a huge PvM help. Usually you'll be doing enough damage to few-hit things anyway, so the occasional successful Dev Crit isn't going to speed up the slaughter to any crucial extent. Add to that the fact that few monsters are a challenge 1v1 and the real threat comes from being swarmed by an entire mob or two, and Dev Crit is often not necessarily worth the investment purely for PvM. I never felt it was amazing even pre-nerf, and back then you could one-shot Windy if you got lucky. (I believe Torin did it several times?)

For PvP though, it's still pretty wicked. If you get lucky, it's game over.

CelestialDante wrote:

Im a fan of the strength build paladin. Sure dev crit was a big nerf to any strength based melee build but do it right you can track up about 60 ab and ac with enough damage to boot

Ok, HOW? O.o

I have a Pally/Divine champ build going. I'm not going Dev crit though, so my question here is concerning the AC. HOW!!? At 16th lvl, with all +4 AC mods, I have a 40 AC.
and I'm REALLY trying to stray from the standard powerbuild tecniques of adding monk or rogue levels just to get the AC. I find that tactic COMPLETELY LAME on an RP server. The 'holy warrior' that suddenly knows how to vault, flip and tumble is stupid IMO. Even for those of you that can justify it as 'knowing how to move in combat', I still find it lame to add a rogue level PURELY FOR THE AC. Its powerbuilding/powergaming IMO...and I don't want to do it....so...

My question is, WITHOUT doing those cheesy things, how can I get a decent AC out of a STR/CHA based Pally?

For the record, I know divine shield adds the Cha mod to the ac for a number of rounds = to the Cha mod. I consider that an aside, since the duration is reasonably short, and the usage limited. I'll use up my allotment of divine shield uses way before I have the chance to rest and renew them.

Yep, it's all about divine shield. I have only seen it in action on a cha-based character but even with just use enough cha-boosting gear and it should do okay. The Extra Turning feat will increase the number of uses to a respectable amount. For actual use, at lowish levels I recommend using divine shield as a panic button; when something goes bad in a spawn or there's a double-spawn or for whatever reason you take a beating, hit it and you're fine. At higher levels I suppose you just need to use it more sparingly, maybe just budget it for the fights you know will be difficult, or try to space them out over several encounters so that it works out that they're used up after 15 minutes.

I won't argue on the topic of abstaining from tumbledump because that's kind of a lifestyle choice, though that is a solid chunk of the AC that most people count on.

Wow, way to trash on everyone. You do realize that the mobs on this server are kind of built on the assumption of Tumble AC, right?

Fully buffed (and not counting your horribly icky and cootie-filled Tumble AC), Voronwer can get to 64 AC. 54 Without Divne Shield. Paladins get slightly lower AC (Unless you can nab some +5 stuff) but more AB.

It's really all in how you build it. AC is the easiest thing to boost, really.

Im trying for a dagger duel wieldin assassin. Either Human or Half elf.

I'm considering taking 15 rogue classes, 4 fighter classes and 9 in assassin. putting all stat boosts into dex. I'm also brabbing epic dodge at lvl 30 currently. any tips on how to iron this build out?

I'd suggest 5 rogue/6 fighter/19 assassin if you want to go all out with it, myself.

What Race do you suggest. I'm sort of partial to a Half elf cause I've alawys done Humans alot. Want to try some variety.

Whatever race trips your trigger for the character. They all work.

Master_Sarevok wrote:

What Race do you suggest. I'm sort of partial to a Half elf cause I've alawys done Humans alot. Want to try some variety.

The only time I ever heard anyone give a compelling mechanical reason to be a half-elf is for some sort of wonky Arcane Archer build that I don't remember. Seriously, the race really offers nothing at all except for immunity to sleep (which is kind of irrelevant) and +1 in a few skills (which you could make up for by taking a race with a +2 to a stat you'd use).

Half-elves exist for RP purposes, not build purposes.

(** Disclaimer: I am a perfect idiot at build stuff, and I'm probably dead wrong every time I post into this thread.)

Hmm. Okay, I've tried what you suggested, the only thing I dont like is the like of epic dodge

It gets Epic Dodge on Amia.

Oh....my bad

CelestialDante wrote:

Im a fan of the strength build paladin. Sure dev crit was a big nerf to any strength based melee build but do it right you can track up about 60 ab and ac with enough damage to boot

I guess I'm that lame. My entire existence on Amia I think I never ever get that number on AB. Unless you're talking about those instant buffs that paladins have (and I don't usually pay attention because I'm often more excited about the battle). All my paladins in this server were Dev Crit Aasimar build with Max STR and with EWF. Only got to 58.

I think the term 'instant buff' is the kicker here. Pally's get 'instant' or short duration buffs that REALLY help, but they're SHORT. Unless you power the cha like crazy, then you have like, one good fight where you're pretty much indestructible. My mid range pally can dish out almost 100 with divine might/power attack for about 7-9 rounds, but I still get the shit beat out of me because of the crappy AC.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

Wow, way to trash on everyone. You do realize that the mobs on this server are kind of built on the assumption of Tumble AC, right?

Fully buffed (and not counting your horribly icky and cootie-filled Tumble AC), Voronwer can get to 64 AC. 54 Without Divne Shield. Paladins get slightly lower AC (Unless you can nab some +5 stuff) but more AB.

It's really all in how you build it. AC is the easiest thing to boost, really.

I found this truly and sincerely funny, only for its delivery. hahaha I'm not being an ass either, I know what you mean, but it was put so elegantly!!! hahaha And you're right too, the majority of the builds assume the tumble dump, and that's what makes me sad is that me, as part of a minority are forced to play the powerbuild, or incorporate a degree of powerbuilding, just so I can assume some level of survivability even when that little 'extra' doesn't necessarily fit in with the character.
I'd love to be able to tip the 50 AC mark with my pally, I just don't see how, aside from getting the nice +5 gear....but, ya right. THAT'S going to happen. The way I see it as it is, I'd need every piece of AC mod to be +5 (ie: deflection, dodge, armor, shield, natural) all of which are currently +4 for me, so even that doesn't get me to 50, never mind your 54. =D Yes, you can say i'm jelly. hahah The upside so far, and the major feature for me, is that the toon has proven alot of fun, but no matter how fun a toon is, being poor, and farming the little stuff for a few thousand a run eventually gets old

So, I'm sorta taking it that with out the tumble dump cheese powerbuilding technique, there really isn't much to solve the perpetual low ac for builds such as the one I'm describing? ....anyone....? O.o

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