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LedaMarie
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 Posted: Tue, Jun 12 2012, 9:26 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Jun 2011
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Healkits work. Only Heal spells (Heal, Heal minor/major/critical etc) do damage to undead.
_________________ Plays.... 
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Ulir
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Posted: Tue, Jun 12 2012, 10:25 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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You have to unshift, heal, then shift back in order to heal yourself. Another thing shifters do, is to stack up regeneration on gear, since they stack and will be quite a boon, especially for the undead shapes (at least the risen lord and vampire, since all items merge for them).
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Ulir
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Posted: Tue, Jun 12 2012, 15:48 PM |
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Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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A group of vampire shifters would be incredibly nasty to fight, as they can harm-heal each other. Druid/shifter/monk would beef up the vampire class quite a bit. Perhaps settle with minimum wisdom and boost another stat that is important to the vampire shape. I can't open the shifter spreadsheet sadly, but I think it has some.. 30 base str? If so, then you could beef up dex or con, if only settling for minimum shifter levels. Monk is an alternative. Another way to go would be BG for example. Divine might/shield and boost cha wildly. Hell, you should make a group of vampire wanna-be shifters and start a coven  . DC request a bat form, if that isn't in the 1k faces and be awesome, haha. LN would be the only opportunity for start alignment, but surely you can RP it as LE since the druid prequisite is needed, but can be ignored with 5 levels only (and no use of the druid abilities that are active, such as spells, companion etc.). _________________
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Ulir
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Posted: Tue, Jun 12 2012, 16:02 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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I think Druid 5/Shifter 13/Monk 12 would be the way to go. The monk attacks carry over, but I am not sure the 1d12 suckerpunch does. Just saying..  _________________
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GreatPigeon
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Posted: Tue, Jun 12 2012, 16:04 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 May 2009
Location: London, UK
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Losing that much shifter awesomeness really just for diamond soul at monk 12 is not sexy imho.
5 Druid, 6 Monk, 19 shifter ?
_________________ The Peacock wrote: [GreatPigeon] is better than me. Uncle-Opustus wrote: Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
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Mr. Hackums
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Posted: Tue, Jun 12 2012, 16:13 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 May 2008
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A shifter's best friend is another shifter.
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Ulir
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Posted: Tue, Jun 12 2012, 16:18 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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Well, I thought that 12 monk levels would be neat for 1d12 damage, 40% movement speed (works fine with hide/ms) and bonus attacks from flurry. Not sure about AB, but it would likely be 40 if the vampire has 30 base str.
Was meant to be a focus build, but with epic wyrmling and gargoyle as alternatives.
Just throwing ideas out there. Personally I would love a druid/shifter/bg with focus in the spectre, except only armor and weapon merges.
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Ulir
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Posted: Tue, Jun 12 2012, 16:28 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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I made a few for fun I recall. One that is quite neat is this. Of course you have to endure the ugly model, but with some DC's and RP that can be fixed I suppose?
Druid 5/Shifter 17/Blackguard 8
Race: Human
Alignment: NE
Str: 13
Dex: 8
Con: 8
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 17 - 24
HP: 400+
AB: 43 (at best, without buffs from others)
AC: 65 (at best)
Saves: In the late 30's, early to mid 40's
1 D - Feat: Alertness, Power Attack
2 D
3 D - Feat: Cleave
4 D - Cha: 18
5 D - Spellcraft 8 ranks
6 S - Feat: Toughness
7 S - Hide 5 ranks
8 S - Cha: 19
9 S - Feat: Blindfight
10 B
11 B
12 B - Feat: Improved Critical: Longsword, Cha: 20
13 S
14 S
15 B - Feat: Divine Might
16 S - Cha: 21
17 B
18 B - Feat: Divine Shield
19 B
20 S - Cha: 22
21 S - Feat: Weapon Focus: Longsword
22 S
23 S
24 S - Feat: Epic Weapon Focus, Cha: 23
25 S - Feat: Undead Shape
26 S
27 S - Feat: Armor Skin
28 S - Feat: Epic Energy Resistance: Sonic, Cha: 24
29 S - Skill dump
30 B - Feat: Epic Prowess, Skill dump
EDIT: Epic humanoid shape focus: Drow
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O'Raghailligh
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Posted: Wed, Jun 13 2012, 9:07 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Location: NZ
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You've got some cool ideas.
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Aeqvinox
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Posted: Wed, Jun 13 2012, 15:17 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Location: Underdark
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I have no clue how much you'd be able to boost your charisma in the selected shape, but 24 CHA is already a +7 mod. I would guess another +4 to +5 mod on top of it should be within the realm of possibility, in this case - the build just cries for more BG levels to make use of it.
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Mark it zero!
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Murex
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Posted: Wed, Jun 13 2012, 15:33 PM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Dec 2009
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Epic Energy Resistance: Sonic? Why?
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Ulir
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Posted: Wed, Jun 13 2012, 16:14 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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Well, you need 17 shifter levels for epic humanoid shape. So, it is a bare minimum. The 24 cha is for almost maxing the cha constantly, leaving you to get +2 cha from pots to max your +8 universal saves, damage and ac. I suppose you can aim for high wis, but you will have trouble maxing cha. Besides, +7 universal saves all day is quite neat. Also, to boost your AB, cha and taunt is helpful.
The epic shifter feats are as follows.
Epic bonus feats: automatic quicken spell, automatic silent spell, automatic still spell, construct shape, dragon shape, epic energy resistance, epic spell focus, epic spell penetration, great wisdom, improved combat casting, outsider shape, undead shape
Energy resistance is the only epic feat you can pick, basically. You've used 1 of 2 feats on undead shape and the only two left is great wis, which would be redundant, and the energy resistance, which would be slightly helpful with traps and pvp, since many have sonic damage on weapons. Of course you can pick any other element if you want.
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The True Flambomski
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Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2012, 12:21 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 May 2012
Location: On a Chair
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Seeing as my Weird build would probably get me slapped about a lot + it was too strange for Amia, (Probably)
Dwarf Build Time!
Race: Dwarf
Alignment: LG
Classes: Fighter / Dwarf Defender / Knight Champion
Diety: Berronar Truesilver
"The Wall"
Stats
STR: 16
DEX: 13
CON: 14
INT: 13
WIS: 8
CHA: 12
Skills: Discipline / Heal (with 1 points spare per level)
With 4 persuade, 4 taunt and Lore 4 at the closest time
// Broke it already D: changed STATS from 16 CON to 14 and took 1 INT for 13 Dex so Dodge can be taken
Feats
1/ KD + Toughness
2/ Power Attack
Where should I go from here?
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Flambom The Evil
Playing as: Meesh The Battlemage
Last edited by The True Flambomski on Thu, Jun 14 2012, 16:24 PM, edited 9 times in total.
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Poorsod
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Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2012, 12:26 PM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Oct 2010
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It's not possible to be Bard/Paladin as Bards can't be lawful (balance reasons, I guess!). And, uh, kobold Paladin of Moradin?
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The True Flambomski
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Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2012, 12:55 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 May 2012
Location: On a Chair
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Stranger things have happened! half demons joining the Cordorian guard for example
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Flambom The Evil
Playing as: Meesh The Battlemage
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2012, 14:10 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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I think the point is that it's highly doubtful Moradin, a dwarven deity, would give a kobold divine powers.
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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Vaul Tarrith
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Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2012, 14:38 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2009
Location: 9th Circle of Hell...with the steaks and Rum
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onni wrote: It's not possible to be Bard/Paladin as Bards can't be lawful This
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The True Flambomski
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Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2012, 15:38 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 May 2012
Location: On a Chair
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[Changed Original Post completely]
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Flambom The Evil
Playing as: Meesh The Battlemage
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QPR
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Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2012, 16:04 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Location: Norway
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Edit, blah.
_________________
"Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II
Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger
Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes
Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.
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Aeqvinox
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Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2012, 16:36 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Location: Underdark
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The True Flambomski wrote: Classes: Fighter / Dwarf Defender / Knight Champion Divine Commander sounds freaking awesome too. Want.
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TheIncognitos
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Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2012, 16:48 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Feb 2012
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Ulir wrote: Druid 5/Shifter 17/Blackguard 8
Race: Human
Alignment: NE
Str: 13
Dex: 8
Con: 8
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 17 - 24
Could you drop a starting point in Wisdom and stick it in Strength to get 14 starting? Use the Spare Epic feat to make it back? Give you another 1 in AB and Damage and still get that +1 in Wisdom?
_________________
Jess Incognto:- F.L.A.G. Hag
Will Forrest:- Ranger Danger
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Aeqvinox
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Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2012, 17:17 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Location: Underdark
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All this talk of shifters made me want to take another crack at the topic, i've yet to make one but i still can't find a third class that i like for the build. I have a bunch of questions, here goes:
1. Will Epic Dodge work in forms?
2. Will sneak attack from rogue or bg work in forms?
3. Can you like, use scrolls while in forms?
4. Will Thundering Rage work for weapons properly while in forms?
5. Can you use items like Stonesalve or BG's spell-widgets for example while in forms?
6. And finally, will Blackguard's spell-feats work while in forms?
I'm thinking here about going for undead shape alone cause i'd have a very nice place to RP, and my character would not use any other forms and most likely stick to only one.
Wraith or Risen Lawd, hopefully a Mummy one day, DM's willing.
So from my questions you can see i've chosen classes that would compliment either a Wraith [rogue with epic dodge and sneak attack] or Risen Lord [barb or blackguard for extra melee beef and flavour].
So before i get to building and testing i'd appreciate some help here guys, thanks in advance.
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Ulir
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Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2012, 17:28 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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TheIncognitos wrote: Ulir wrote: Druid 5/Shifter 17/Blackguard 8
Race: Human
Alignment: NE
Str: 13
Dex: 8
Con: 8
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 17 - 24
Could you drop a starting point in Wisdom and stick it in Strength to get 14 starting? Use the Spare Epic feat to make it back? Give you another 1 in AB and Damage and still get that +1 in Wisdom? You could, aye, but when you shift, your str, dex and con change to that of the new shape. You don't gain anything, except slightly better AB and damage in normal form, which you won't likely fight in, if you wish to utilize your strengths. _________________
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GreatPigeon
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Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2012, 17:29 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 May 2009
Location: London, UK
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Barbarian needs 16 levels to get the awesomeness of different rages. You need 11 shifter for undead. Leaves only 3 levels for Druid. Will not work.
Epic Dodge needs 10 levels of SD or 13 Levels of Rogue. 5 Druid/11 Shifter/13 Rogue +1 extra level does in fact work..
5 Druid/11 shifter/13 SD +1 level also gives you the SD summon... Just a thought. And a Damn good one at that!
_________________ The Peacock wrote: [GreatPigeon] is better than me. Uncle-Opustus wrote: Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
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Ulir
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Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2012, 17:37 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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Aeqvinox wrote: All this talk of shifters made me want to take another crack at the topic, i've yet to make one but i still can't find a third class that i like for the build. I have a bunch of questions, here goes:
1. Will Epic Dodge work in forms?
2. Will sneak attack from rogue or bg work in forms?
3. Can you like, use scrolls while in forms?
4. Will Thundering Rage work for weapons properly while in forms?
5. Can you use items like Stonesalve or BG's spell-widgets for example while in forms?
6. And finally, will Blackguard's spell-feats work while in forms?
I'm thinking here about going for undead shape alone cause i'd have a very nice place to RP, and my character would not use any other forms and most likely stick to only one.
Wraith or Risen Lawd, hopefully a Mummy one day, DM's willing.
So from my questions you can see i've chosen classes that would compliment either a Wraith [rogue with epic dodge and sneak attack] or Risen Lord [barb or blackguard for extra melee beef and flavour].
So before i get to building and testing i'd appreciate some help here guys, thanks in advance. 1. Yes, dev crit and such works too. 2. Yes, they will not stack with existing sneak from spectre or kobold though. 3. Nope 4. Rage works while shifted, so yes, it should. Fear aura ftw? 5. Nope. Only natural abilities work while shifted. Widgets won't, sadly. Non-amia modified abilities work, from what I have seen. Bard song, rage etc. 6. I know his aura will. GMW and such buffs work for your shape when you cast it beforehand, so I can only assume his EVIIIL sword and abilities does as well. I haven't experienced that buffing beforehand didn't work so far. I got a druid/shifter/barb with dev crit risen lord. Works rather fine. Taunt is your buddy if you can grab it from BG or such. I taunted the Fire Giant King once, because risen lord gets a saucy bonus to taunt and can live with getting the attack of opportunity. _________________
Last edited by Ulir on Thu, Jun 14 2012, 17:42 PM, edited 2 times in total.
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Ulir
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Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2012, 17:39 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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Pidge, druid 5/shifter 10/barb 15 works.
NWNwiki:
This feat's description incorrectly lists "epic barbarian" as a prerequisite. While 21 character levels are required, only 15 of them need to be barbarian levels. (More precisely, the feat "greater rage (4x per day)" is required.)
This feat does not actually require one to be an epic shifter. It can be taken starting on shifter level 10 (when the shifter gets greater wildshape IV).
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Ulir
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Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2012, 17:51 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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Before it gets mentioned, I can say that if you boost your strength like mad, to 26 for example, and the shape you shift to has a set strength of 20, you can only go as high as 32 strength with gear and buffs. It makes the stat you choose easier to max out, but the limit of +12 from gear works of the forms natural stat. I was surprised by this when making my shifter/barb dev critter. Thought it would be worth mentioning.
Druid 5/Shifter 10/Rogue 15 would be quite neat for sneak and epic dodge on your undead forms, but as far as I recall the spectre has natural 30 dex and epic dodge already, so the only undead shapes to benefit from it is vampire and risen lord Spectre hasn't epic dodge, my bad. You'll get plenty of skills and sneak though, but four attacks per round max with haste.
On another note. You need at least 7 levels pre-epic from a 1 bab class (ftr, barb, bg etc.) in order to gain 16 bab pre-epic, which is 4 natural attacks per round.
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Aeqvinox
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Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2012, 20:00 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Location: Underdark
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Thanks for some valuable info Ulir. I just have a few more small things to clear up.
By BG spell-feats i meant his Animate Dead, Bull's Strength and Inflict spells btw, they probably don't work when shifted but perhaps i'm mistaken?
You said that sneak attack doesn't stack. Now, i don't know how much of it the spectre has, but if 15 rogue would have more, would it override the spectre's?
And lastly, you said Dev works; does EWF and Epic Prowess work too? How about KD, Called Shot or Disarm?
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Ts_
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Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2012, 20:45 PM |
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Player
Joined: 28 Jul 2008
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Aeqvinox wrote: By BG spell-feats i meant his Animate Dead, Bull's Strength and Inflict spells btw, they probably don't work when shifted but perhaps i'm mistaken? Anything that isn't cast from the spell book should work or isn't an item (except potions) should work. I've tried those BG feats (except the Inflict) in vanilla NWN and they certainly work. Aeqvinox wrote: You said that sneak attack doesn't stack. Now, i don't know how much of it the spectre has, but if 15 rogue would have more, would it override the spectre's? I think it would override it. But note that there are different kinds of sneak attacks, and those do stack. So if you have a form which has rogue sneak attack but you are a assassin sneak attacker (= death attack), I think they would stack. Aeqvinox wrote: And lastly, you said Dev works; does EWF and Epic Prowess work too? How about KD, Called Shot or Disarm? All yes, same for Epic DR and all other always-on feats. Note that DevCrit Unarmed does not work in any shape because they technically use "creature weapons", which players cannot learn DevCrit in. Only the shapes with weapons therefore have the DevCrit option. Monk levels on the other hand help with the unarmed shapes, at least for the number of attacks, not the damage, though. My own ideas on what cool features might aid shifters isn't that long either. But here it is anyway: defensive stuff: Spell Resistance (ECL+2 race) Epic Dodge (needs many levels, at least SD 10) Epic DR (doable, if high WIS is no concern, requires no extra classes) Divine Shield Offensive: Sneak (takes lots of levels, reduces shifterness) DevCrit/WM/etc (benefits only one weapon and therefore only one form, because they all have different weapons ...) high AB (difficult with the varying weapons) Auras (Blackguard, Bard Song, although you can't really take that many Bard levels) Monk-stuff (number of attacks, free feats) Divine Might I forgot the Barbarian there, that might actually be a good idea. Overall, I think it's hard to make a shifter that is a powerful Meleer. Your AB and damage will often be mediocre. It's slightly easier to get good defenses, but tanks aren't that exciting. In terms of gimmicks, Undead shape is often the way to go. You could, for example, do Druid 6 / Rogue 13 / Shifter 11 and have an undead shifter with 7d6 sneak and epic DR 9/-. That's (in theory) an enemy that you shouldn't ignore but can't really damage either. The epic wyrmling forms are a nice bonus. But it seems like the most useful shifters these days are high WIS shifters spamming spells with lots of shifter levels and many forms, maybe even Dragonshape. That way, you can't really go wrong and have more fun with the shifter, I suppose. Also thanks for the tip on the +12 limit and the overwritten stats upthread. Didn't know that either. Regards Ts
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Ralghok & Hazamir "The Weasel"
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Ulir
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Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2012, 21:19 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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Yeah, what Ts said. Not sure about BG abilities, but I assume they would work, lest they be widgets in your inventory or spells from a spellbook. Highest stat overrides. So if you have 8d6, it will take the place of the 3d6 sneak the spectre has. It certainly hasn't much. Opposite Ts, I mean that no amount of sneak would stack, even if assassin or BG type. Well, YOUR sneaks would stack (rog+bg for example), but not with that of the shape. Correct me if wrong. WF/EWF works for shapes with weapons. Epic Prowess works for all shapes. Improved Crit works as well. (some do have that feat already, so if you want to specialize, check the shifter spreadsheet for their special abilities). KD works, Disarm as well (as I tried it using a whip), and I would greatly assume that CS also works. @Ts: It is true that they don't gain high AB. The highest AB I could get if I wanted, NOT picking dragon would be 46. Of course you can use trinkets on the side and shift for a boost, but 40+ will get you through pve. Assassin levels and insane intelligence would be neat. Druid 5/Shifter 10/Assassin 15. Many faced assassins should be incredible at doing their job. Personally I would pick other shapes. The Druid 5/Shifter 11/Dwarven Defender 14 could be neat. Turning into an Azer, which has an incredible +6 str/con buff, which lets your easily max those two stats. 44 or 45 AB max, some 800+ HP if I recall and a fun ranged fire attack that deals quite a bit of damage. Dwarf and Azer has the same size, so it looks like you just ignited when shifted. There are soooo many variants. Fun fun! _________________
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Ts_
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Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2012, 21:43 PM |
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Player
Joined: 28 Jul 2008
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Ulir wrote: I mean that no amount of sneak would stack, even if assassin or BG type. Well, YOUR sneaks would stack (rog+bg for example), but not with that of the shape. Correct me if wrong. NWNwiki supports me: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Humanoid_shape wrote: The kobold commando shape provides the sneak attack ability. This will not stack with a character's sneak attack from rogue levels, but it will stack with a blackguard's sneak attack or an assassin's death attack. Ulir wrote: The Druid 5/Shifter 11/Dwarven Defender 14 could be neat. Turning into an Azer, which has an incredible +6 str/con buff, which lets your easily max those two stats. Yep, that might work. The same classes can get DR 18/- if you go for Undead Shape only, which gives you the typical Risen Lord shifter, afaik. Ulir wrote: There are soooo many variants. Fun fun! I always feel bad about specializing too much for one shape. But as soon as you pick some weapon feats, investing more and more in that one shape seems like the logical thing. I really wish the armed shapes would have a variety of weapons, depending on which on you held when shifting. *day dreams* Ts
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Ralghok & Hazamir "The Weasel"
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PeerlessArch
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Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2012, 22:25 PM |
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Player
Joined: 27 Jan 2010
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I have a quick question on the Parry skill that I can't seem to grasp clarification on in the nwnwikia or gremoire and was thinking to add into a build. " Check: The DC is the modified attack roll of the incoming blow." Compared to what? Your modified attack roll as if you were the attacker? So basically the attacker rolls an attack, then you roll an attack and if you tie or beat it, a successful parry occurs? Secondly, for a high DEX character, and you do not have Wep. Finesse (Archer build) feat yet or at all it will default to a STR AB I assume? Lastly, can you parry with a bow in hand to use your DEX AB, or does it have to be a melee Wep.? Thanks! Edit: Hmm, I seem to have forgotten about the ranks in parry haha -- so it answers part of the question. The actually Parry roll has to beat the attacker's attack roll correct? I guess the other questions would go for the riposte chance. Ok, the more I think about it yeah, it will use whatever AB you have atm whether normal for STR AB or if you have Wep Fin. parrying with light wep will use the DEX AB if you beat the check by 10 or more....so, yeah, just the Bow question then? (Leaving the entire post, just in case anyone else has the same question.) Edit 2: Oh and will a Taunt decrease in AC stack with a Called Shot decrease in AC as well as stacking with Curse Song decrease in AC?
Last edited by PeerlessArch on Thu, Jun 14 2012, 22:55 PM, edited 2 times in total.
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Solvaras
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Posted: Thu, Jun 14 2012, 22:41 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Mar 2011
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Just to clarify for the builds above, you only need 10 shifter for undead form.
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oshizo2
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Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2012, 1:14 AM |
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Player
Joined: 22 May 2007
Location: USA, Mississippi
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uh.. can sorcerer epic bonus feat be an epic spell or great charisma?
_________________
Iman Emanni: Learned, wanderer, dangerous
Jurl Blackskull: Why people fear the underdark.
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Ulir
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Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2012, 1:42 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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Epic sorcerer bonus feats: automatic quicken spell, automatic silent spell, automatic still spell, epic energy resistance, epic spell focus, epic spell penetration, epic spell: dragon knight, epic spell: epic mage armor, epic spell: epic warding, epic spell: greater ruin, epic spell: hellball, epic spell: mummy dust, great charisma, improved combat casting http://www.nwnwiki.com is your friend. _________________
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J.G.
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Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2012, 4:03 AM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Apr 2009
Location: Somewhere, anywhere, everywhere, and nowhere.
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Would it be possible to make an effective Tiefling Rogue/Assassin/Shadowdancer ? I want to make him a spy and assassin.
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Gianan Wing - Wandering Priest of Akadi
Rente Galenson - Halruaan Wizard
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Ulir
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Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2012, 4:10 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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Sure, but your AB will be kinda low, but it is doable. Do you want to focus on a special part of the classes?
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J.G.
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Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2012, 4:18 AM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Apr 2009
Location: Somewhere, anywhere, everywhere, and nowhere.
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Ulir wrote: Sure, but your AB will be kinda low, but it is doable. Do you want to focus on a special part of the classes? Sneaking and doing the most damage in the first strike with the hope of killing the opponent. Basically an assassin/spy that can get in and out quickly and does not have to be involved in lengthy combat in oder to kill an opponent. I have the intent for him to become an assassin for hire or that works for a player faction; although from what I remember that is hard to do as pvp has to involve roleplay, which is no problem if you don't want your target to know that your going to pk them.
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Gianan Wing - Wandering Priest of Akadi
Rente Galenson - Halruaan Wizard
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2012, 4:21 AM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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J.G. wrote: I have the intent for him to become an assassin for hire or that works for a player faction; although from what I remember that is hard to do as pvp has to involve roleplay, which is no problem if you don't want your target to know that your going to pk them. True, but you can also tell a DM that is online and they can watch instead.
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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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J.G.
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Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2012, 4:48 AM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Apr 2009
Location: Somewhere, anywhere, everywhere, and nowhere.
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Ok, thanks about clearing that up.  also, is AB attack bonus or Armor bonus? I always get that one messed up. 
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Gianan Wing - Wandering Priest of Akadi
Rente Galenson - Halruaan Wizard
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serbiris
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Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2012, 4:50 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Yeah AB is attack bonus. Armour is usually just called AC and the specific bonus provided by armour to total AC isn't used often enough to warrant its own abbreviation.
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@Thanatopsis#6293
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J.G.
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Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2012, 4:55 AM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Apr 2009
Location: Somewhere, anywhere, everywhere, and nowhere.
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ok, thanks. now... What should I do to make such a character effective, I'm not good at that sort of thing. Any specific feats I should get? or any order i should take class levels? Sorry to be so...well I think sound demanding.
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Gianan Wing - Wandering Priest of Akadi
Rente Galenson - Halruaan Wizard
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serbiris
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Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2012, 5:25 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Oh right, there was a build question! I am sorta familiar with these sorts of builds, just bear in mind that I don't know any that are actually good, especially with the parameters you've given.
I'll recommend Ranger/SD/Assassin for mildly better AB and two weapon thing, to capitalize on successful death attack paralysis a bit better (as well as make it more likely they'll actually work). Probably Ranger5/SD6/Assassin18, though you'll be lacking in discipline (not that it'll be that great anyway). You can go SD10 and Assassin14 if you like, I think it's generally preferrable to end Assassin on 18 or 14.
If you're set on rogue, your AB won't be great as it's been said, but with weapon foci and striking from stealth you'll sorta manage. Feats will be tight, get stealthy and skill focus: hide if you can as you'll need them to foil amateur spotters (should do against most non wis-focused). The rest will be pre-reqs, weapon foci/other general combat feats (blindfight, imp crit etc), not sure on the exact numbers. You should be able to get epic dodge either way. The spread for this build is probably the same as Ranger/SD/Assassin. I don't think there's any good way to maximize AB by adjusting your pre-epic level spread...
For ability scores have Dex at 18 or higher and if you can manage it, int16 (after tiefling racial modifiers). Good for skill points and death attack.
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@Thanatopsis#6293
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J.G.
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Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2012, 5:32 AM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Apr 2009
Location: Somewhere, anywhere, everywhere, and nowhere.
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serbiris wrote: Oh right, there was a build question! I am sorta familiar with these sorts of builds, just bear in mind that I don't know any that are actually good, especially with the parameters you've given.
I'll recommend Ranger/SD/Assassin for mildly better AB and two weapon thing, to capitalize on successful death attack paralysis a bit better (as well as make it more likely they'll actually work). Probably Ranger5/SD6/Assassin18, though you'll be lacking in discipline (not that it'll be that great anyway). You can go SD10 and Assassin14 if you like, I think it's generally preferrable to end Assassin on 18 or 14.
If you're set on rogue, your AB won't be great as it's been said, but with weapon foci and striking from stealth you'll sorta manage. Feats will be tight, get stealthy and skill focus: hide if you can as you'll need them to foil amateur spotters (should do against most non wis-focused). The rest will be pre-reqs, weapon foci/other general combat feats (blindfight, imp crit etc), not sure on the exact numbers. You should be able to get epic dodge either way. The spread for this build is probably the same as Ranger/SD/Assassin. I don't think there's any good way to maximize AB by adjusting your pre-epic level spread...
For ability scores have Dex at 18 or higher and if you can manage it, int16 (after tiefling racial modifiers). Good for skill points and death attack. How big of a diffrence would it be AB wise between ranger and rogue?....the biggest thing I have against going ranger is the the idea of...well the whole running around the forest n' stuff doesn't fit with what I want to play. If that made any sense. also, what would you recommend for a tiefling assassin/spy character build-wise instead? The classes I listed just sounded best to me.  And thanks! and sorry about all of the different questions and requests, I'm new at building a character beforehand.
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Gianan Wing - Wandering Priest of Akadi
Rente Galenson - Halruaan Wizard
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serbiris
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Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2012, 5:39 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Alright, I figured it would be something like that. I think ranger still works well for stealth assassin types, because it's really up to you how outdoorsy a ranger they are (as long as it's at least a little) and that's the only defining quality of ranger that doesn't mesh well with the concept (or what little of it I can see). But it is ultimately up to your interpretation of the classes.
The difference is about 2AB though, seemingly not a lot but you'll probably miss it - I sure do on my poorly-built rogue. You also get Two weapon fighting for free, and I think shield proficiency, which are both quite useful to have with that sort of build and I think the rogue version lacks it.
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@Thanatopsis#6293
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Ts_
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Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2012, 6:55 AM |
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Joined: 28 Jul 2008
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First off, for lots of sneaking damage, lots of sneak attack is needed and lots of attacks. That should be easier with Rogue than Assassin because you can have only 20 Assassin levels. Something like Rogue 25 / Ranger 5 (or Fighter 5) can hurt a lot, I think. Plus, it has tons of skill points.
If you mix in SD, you will lose sneak levels. Sure, you can HIPS to gain new chances for sneaks, but that's boring ...
Here's some strange idea, though:
Monk 9 / Assassin 19 / Fighter 2 with 8 / 10 / 2 in preepic. That should barely be able to get Epic Dodge and Crippling Strike on Amia, but lacks the fourth attack (BAB 15), which the monk makes up for with dual-wielding Kamas and the monk's special attack sequence, I suppose, and some extra speed. Also, tons of feats and good saves, I suppose. Of course, you're a lawful assassin then ...
I don't know the technicalities of the monk's attack sequence, though. In the best case, BAB 15 should give you 5 attacks in the main hand, one more with flurry of blows, and potentially the 2 offhand attacks and haste. That's ... 9 attacks. You could get one more attack if you had BAB 16 preepic, but you need Monk 9 / Assassin 18 at least for epic dodge and crippling, so it's not possible to get Fighter 4 for BAB 16.
Disclaimer: I just made this build up. It might suck entirely.
Regards
Ts
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Ralghok & Hazamir "The Weasel"
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serbiris
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Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2012, 7:41 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Ts has a point, dropping SD will help your effectiveness quite a bit. HiPS is nice and SDs are fun, but if you can do without it then you'll be able to excel in other areas. It frees up 2 feats, lets you take a third class to boost AB pre-epic, and as an assassin if your death attack succeeds you might not even *need* to hide again anyway. Unless you're facing multiple opponents, but odds aren't in your favour then anyway unless you cornersneak. Assassin has a lot of goodies that are a shame to pass up and they seem pretty central to the concept so keep them. Monk9/Assassin19/Fighter2 doesn't work for a tiefling I believe, due to level adjustment. But I did forget that monk might be a good thing to try, if that works for your concept JG. Quote: also, what would you recommend for a tiefling assassin/spy character build-wise instead? The classes I listed just sounded best to me. If you're after classes we've pretty much covered all of them: Ranger, rogue and monk do well for base, if you drop SD you have room for a few fighter levels which can improve your combat effectiveness a lot. Fighter levels go with just about any weapon-user, concept-wise. That's the sole benefit of the class's blandness. You could put in Divine Champion as well, but it's slightly stricter concept-wise. *If* you still want SD... You may want to drop Assassin in favour of going more rogue. You'll get enough sneak and you can do builds like Rogue10/Fighter10/SD10, which is reasonably effective and gives you an in on SD RP goodness. For the exact build you'll have to put forth your best guess for us to work from, there's too many variables to be able to make a decent suggestion aside from what has already been said.
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@Thanatopsis#6293
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Ts_
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Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2012, 9:17 AM |
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Joined: 28 Jul 2008
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serbiris wrote: Monk9/Assassin19/Fighter2 doesn't work for a tiefling I believe, due to level adjustment. Oops, forgot about the tiefling. Well, you can drop 1 level of Assassin in epic (-1d6 Sneak, -1 DC on special abilities*) or 1 of Fighter in preepic (-1 preepic feat, -1 AB). I'd lose the Assassin, because AB is important for many things, but if you want to maximize the Assassin DC, you could drop the fighter as well. *) I don't know what the DC for the Assassin's special abilities on Amia are. But if they are like death attack, it's 10 + Assassin level + INT modifier. Problems I see with this build, though: Not many epic feats. Besides Epic Dodge and crippling strike, you only have 2 general feats available. That's not a lot, becaue there are many you might want: ESF Hide and maybe Move, Epic Weapon Focus, Armorskin, maybe Great DEX, Epic Prowess ... Everythings good. Abilities are also a bit thinly stretched, if you want high dex and decent INT to make up for loss of skills compared to Rogue and to improve the Assassin's DC. I guess this is much easier to do with Rogue instead of Assassin. That also gets you BAB 16 and a 10th attack, if desired. Like Rogue 17 / Monk 6 / Fighter 6 seems doable, has more attacks, more base damage, easier attributes etc. You should be able to hit for something like 40-50 damage on a successful sneak attack with that. If all 10 hits connect, that's ... ouch. If you drop Monk to 1 (taken in epic), you get even more sneak out of this, I suppose, but it will look very cheesy. Another option is to take Ro 13 / M 10 / F 6. It's more defensive, I would say. (Faster, better AC and saves, but worse sneak attacks.) Note that all of these (also the Assassin) will suffer the XP penalty for multiclassing ... Regards Ts, who shouldn't be writing so much while knowing so little
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Ralghok & Hazamir "The Weasel"
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Vaul Tarrith
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Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2012, 10:50 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2009
Location: 9th Circle of Hell...with the steaks and Rum
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You have a ton of choices to make before building this character (HiPS? Epic Dodge? Full Metal Sneaks?). On a Tiefling (or any ECL +1 race), I'd suggest 10 Ranger / 18 Assassin / 1 Fighter. Take 10 R / 10 A pre-epic, then 7 A, 1 F (maxing Discipline) then 1 A. This gives you 2 Assassin feats (I'd suggest Crip Strike & maybe ESF:Move Silently). You could take Epic Prowess, Armor Skin, and ESF:Discipline (to avoid some KD's) on regular levels, then nab Epic WF on your Fighter level. Going Assassin on a + ECL race, I'm not sure you CAN get Epic Dodge w/o 10 SD levels. IF Epic Dodge can be taken as bonus Fighter feat, do that. Also, if you get to 11 Wis (which is what you'll start with as a Ranger at creation anyway) you'll get a 1st level spell; Ultravision and Camo are VERY handy (Camo moreso). Hope that helps.
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Ts_
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Posted: Fri, Jun 15 2012, 11:29 AM |
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Player
Joined: 28 Jul 2008
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Vaul Tarrith wrote: I'm not sure you CAN get Epic Dodge w/o 10 SD levels. Epic Dodge is not class-restricted by itself. But you need improved evasion and defensive roll, and in vanilla NWN you only get these from Rogue bonus feats, SD levels or monk levels. On Amia, you can also get it from Assassin bonus feats, but you need both of them (level 14 and 18). So once you go for Epic Dodge with an Assassin (and no other class), you cannot have Crippling Strike anymore, which is a pity. Vaul Tarrith wrote: I'd suggest 10 Ranger / 18 Assassin / 1 Fighter For those reasons, this suggests a STR-focused Assassin to me, because everyone wants crippling strike, so no epic dodge. You get high AB, STR-based additional damage, and good sneaks, and your feats are less troubled by Epic Dodge. (An Assassin might be able to do without crip strike, though. I'm not sure how good its special attacks are in practise and some of them have a similar effect.) DevCrit is possible as well, I'm sure, but it is somewhat redundant with high sneak damage. Regards Ts
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Ralghok & Hazamir "The Weasel"
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