AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Hi! ^^

I have a few questions about Blackguards and I don't have the resources to find out!

1. Can a Blackguard trade something other than her soul for power?
2. Can a Blackguard trade that something for something else that isn't power? Like skill or talent?
3. If so, and if so, then would a Demon or Devil be more likely to make a deal like that?

PaladinOfSune wrote:

We don't add/remove feats, skills and what have you on characters as a matter of policy, sorry.

Unless I'm gravely mistaken, not all blackguards are of the "evil planes" variant, though it's a solid, reliable character trope. A blackguard can also function as a sort of anti-paladin, simply a powerful servant of an evil deity, with only the agreements of a faithful to their God as their "pact". I suppose that's trading in your soul in a more abstract way, but blackguards certainly aren't limited to Faustian pacts to "unlock" the class.

First, let me thank both of you for the wonderful help!

I have a few more questions if you don't mind. About these pacts:

1. Do these pacts only happen to characters who want to become Blackguards, or can they happen to any character?

2. If a character wanted to make a pact to become the best insert-random-role-play-talent here, would that be possible?

Supposedly, any character can meet with a Devil to make a pact by waiting at a crossroads at midnight. >_> I'd suggest trying and finding out if you can IC for point number 2!

1. They can happen to any character who happens to be gullible or particularly power hungry. The fiendish planes are particularly interested in corrupting mortals; the Hells in particular sends out specialized agents like Falxugons to solicit these pacts.

2. Now your getting silly and asking: "Is X request feasible?" It is ideal to simply do your best with the roleplay to produce a compelling, lore-compliant, and original request then hash out exactly how it will be mechanically implemented with the help of the DMs. That way, the roleplay remains dynamic and not scripted!

Bini wrote:

2. Now your getting silly and asking: "Is X request feasible?" It is ideal to simply do your best with the roleplay to produce a compelling, lore-compliant, and original request then hash out exactly how it will be mechanically implemented with the help of the DMs. That way, the roleplay remains dynamic and not scripted!

Thanks for the help, you two! ^^

And don't worry, Bini, I was asking specifically about the lore-compliant part. That's all. ^^ I'm not a big Forgotten Realms lore junky, which is precisely why I asked what I did in this forum!

4. Can a Blackguard "turn off" his Aura of Despair?

Even though the mechanics of the game allow for the Aura of Despair to be turned off... IC'ly, it's always up. There's no real hiding of the creepiness that a BG emanates.

ainjyll wrote:

Even though the mechanics of the game allow for the Aura of Despair to be turned off... IC'ly, it's always up. There's no real hiding of the creepiness that a BG emanates.

Thanks a lot, I had wondered about the same!

New question: Is there a way for a BG to stay secret?

From what I gathered, I thought a BG of Asmodeus would be somewhat like an Illuminati, working secretly with other followers of Asmodeus to gain power in society. If his BG-ishness is obvious, that doesn't seem feasible.

Ts

PS: Totally hypothetically, of course. I don't intend to play a BG of Asmodeus, oh no, no.

Too Strong wrote:

1. Can a Blackguard trade something other than her soul for power?
2. Can a Blackguard trade that something for something else that isn't power? Like skill or talent?
3. If so, and if so, then would a Demon or Devil be more likely to make a deal like that?

1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Possibly, depends on the fiend. In most cases yes if the price is right.

Ts_ wrote:

New question: Is there a way for a BG to stay secret?

From what I gathered, I thought a BG of Asmodeus would be somewhat like an Illuminati, working secretly with other followers of Asmodeus to gain power in society. If his BG-ishness is obvious, that doesn't seem feasible.

I would say yes it is possible, but I bet there is still something about the BG that might make others feel uncomfortable, even if they are unaware of the cause.

Ðraco wrote:

I would say yes it is possible, but I bet there is still something about the BG that might make others feel uncomfortable, even if they are unaware of the cause.

Well it actually comes down to the choice of that person on whether he would be aware of the cause or not. For instance, someone who had his fair share of business with the Blackguards would pretty much know how does it feel to be within the range of the Aura of Despair. Unless you are standing in the crowd so that the said person cannot decide which one of you is a blackguard, while still being aware that there is a blackguard in the radius of 15ft or such.

I'm trying to think of the best way to explain it...

Think of an Aura of Despair as feeling like the same thing as when you're walking somewhere by yourself late at night and your mind starts playing tricks on you... hearing things, the skin begins to crawl, you start walking a little bit faster, your eyes dart everywhere... you know the feeling. That ominous feeling that something isn't right... even though you don't have a single reason to feel that way, you just do.

That's kind of how the Aura of Despair is.

Now, detecting this is kinda tricky.

I'd say that the only way to be sure about what you're looking at would be through the use of a Detect Evil spell. Yet, even that has it's pitfalls and deceptions... not to mention that it requires the use of a PnP spell, hence, agreement from all parties or a DM's approval.

As much as I hate the combination of the words "common" and "sense", those two despicable words should most likely be used here. If there's a lone guy wearing spiky black full-plate standing in the corner by himself and you pass close enough to feel his aura, then it's probably a pretty safe bet. If there are four or five people standing in a group talking and you pass by, don't just start screaming "Blackguard!"

Ainjyll, the description of the aura explicitly states that it affects hostile people and creatures within 10 feet radius. The way I would personally RP this is that you normally wouldn't feel any differently near a blackguard, but if you got into a say, heated argument or a squabble with them... You'd start feeling a lil' nauseous, icky and whatnot. In short, the aura would, or would not affect you, depending on how the blackguard felt about you. I could be wrong, of course, but this is the way I see it.

I kinda have to agree with Sphinx. Like... would two allied Blackguards have to stay X feet away from each other all day every day, lest their Auras of Despair overlap and they start to find each other intolerable? That seems kind of implausible, to me.

@Sphinx: That's the mechanics of the Aura, yes. Enemies of the BG take a -2 to saves due to the things that have already been discussed. However, even if the BG isn't aware of the enemy... perhaps an unknown SD assassin getting ready to attack out of HiPS, for example... they still receive the -2 to saves. The BG doesn't have to focus his anger or anything else at the SD for them to receive this negative. In the specific example, the BG isn't even aware of his soon-to-be attacker's existence. Yet, they still receive the negative to saves. They simply have to be within the 10' radius for this to happen. This implies that the -2 to saves has nothing to do with the actual intentions of the BG whatsoever.

The Aura of Despair's mechanics are what makes it a cool little trick for BG's to have. If it provided -2 saves to everyone inside the circle, then nobody would want to be near a BG ever... making the class quite less appealing to play. This is one of those cases where we have to overlook the fact that only enemies receive the negative to saves and look at the bigger picture or the overarching design of the ability for what it's intended purpose is. That being that BG's are creepy as hell and it shows.

Think of it quite like Bard Song. Everybody has different tastes in music and/or poetry, yet a Bard is able to inspire all of them through one song, poem, chant, what-have-you? What if one of the guys in the party doesn't like that particular poem that the bard just recited and a guy on the opposing side loves it? Why does the ally who didn't like the poem get the bonus, but the guy who loved it doesn't? The answer is that that is because that's how Bard Song works. It wouldn't be nearly as cool if you could bolster your enemies with the song too, now would it?

I'll add to this that you are free to RP your character however you feel (within reason, of course), and what you described could possibly work. What I've described is more food for thought... that being, why does your character suddenly receive a -2 to all saves, even if your intentions towards the BG are harmful, but his towards you are not?

@Lizzie: So, if you wear a certain perfume and your friend wears a certain perfume, you can't hang out with each other because the overwhelming smell of that perfume might drive you nuts? Or... you wear your perfume because you like it and hanging out with someone who has the same tastes as you may be a good thing? More food for thought.

Even tieflings radiate something that would remind someone of the Aura of despair except that it only freaks people out nothing more, thus I would assume that the blackguards would do the same constantly.

Paladins love the feeling they get when a black guard sneaks by

But to repeat what has been said to me, the evil aura is palpable.

ainjyll wrote:

@Sphinx: That's the mechanics of the Aura, yes. Enemies of the BG take a -2 to saves due to the things that have already been discussed. However, even if the BG isn't aware of the enemy... perhaps an unknown SD assassin getting ready to attack out of HiPS, for example... they still receive the -2 to saves. The BG doesn't have to focus his anger or anything else at the SD for them to receive this negative. In the specific example, the BG isn't even aware of his soon-to-be attacker's existence. Yet, they still receive the negative to saves. They simply have to be within the 10' radius for this to happen. This implies that the -2 to saves has nothing to do with the actual intentions of the BG whatsoever.

(...) What I've described is more food for thought... that being, why does your character suddenly receive a -2 to all saves, even if your intentions towards the BG are harmful, but his towards you are not?

Because D&D is phrased like legal documents, as my home DM is fond of pointing out. The terms used in ability descriptions are not arbitrarily chosen. "Enemy" is the word used, and this goes in both directions - either the BG or the other person deciding that the other is now their foe. The wording is specific, and it does not specify "everyone/everything within 10 ft" like some other AoE abilities do. This means it would not be affecting neutral or friendly creatures, which also works in NWN's faction system.

The BG doesn't have to be aware of the hostile intentions of an unseen enemy for them affected by the Aura because the Aura is supernatural and is specifically designed, by mechanic and whatever lore to support it, to make "Enemies" suffer. Yes, it is always there, but it is not always "triggered" and that is a difference that should be acknowledged. Either the BG or a potential foe can therefore "turn it on" and it is otherwise present and latent.

CelestialDante wrote:

Paladins love the feeling they get when a black guard sneaks by

But to repeat what has been said to me, the evil aura is palpable.

For aforementioned reasons, a Paladin walking by a Blackguard (who may not be obviously a Blackguard) should not be able to sense without magic or other special abilities that they are, in fact, a Blackguard just because they have Aura of Despair - unless/until it comes to be that one or the other comes hostile to the other, and therefore an "Enemy". That is what a Paladin's own Supernatural, Spell-like Abilities and Spells are for.- but that doesn't mean that they suddenly gain preternatural instincts to sniff out a Blackguard who might be hiding their nature, just as a function of their Aura, until they actually "trigger" the Aura.

They may not be able to sense it but not just paladins but every common men who goes near to a tiefling or blackguard without knowing their true existence would have a bad feeling at least.

Lutra wrote:

They may not be able to sense it but not just paladins but every common men who goes near to a tiefling or blackguard without knowing their true existence would have a bad feeling at least.

This isn't supported by anything I can find, other than player-driven sentiment and culture on the matter. If there has been a DM ruling on this, though, I'd be happy to see it.

Neither the mechanics of the Tiefling subrace or the Blackguard class say that (non-enemy) people are inherently made uncomfortable in their presence and can tell they are evil simply by passing by them. Active abilities and skills that either they use, or are used on them, are what reveal this.

Tieflings are Outsiders (since they're not Lesser Tieflings, on Amia) and they have a -2 Racial CHA, yes - but it doesn't say that they radiate anything discernibly off-putting as a rule. Tieflings are, in fact, described as no two looking the same. Their bloodline produces different signs of heritage. One Tiefling may obvious have an odor of brimstone that gives them away, sure - but not every Tiefling does. Manual of the Planes and Races of Faerun both speak on this - and neither say that Tieflings give people around them bad feelings by their mere presence. Any bad feelings people get around them are instead due to visible fiendish traits, such as horns or whatever.

The "taint of evil" in a Tiefling's soul is exactly that - in their soul. It isn't automatically radiating out from them like a foul smell or beacon of the unholy in every case, though it might for an individual.

Tielfings are very cut and dry in this regard, I think.

Blackguards may be more of a gray area between mechanics and theme, and I think this is definitely something that should have DM consideration and a ruling on how the Aura works in the Amia campaign, because of the nebulosity. It is on all the time, maligning all within 10 feet; or is it silent, except for enemies? Can Blackguards hide their evil presence from casual notice, or can they not?

LetumLux wrote:

Blackguards may be more of a gray area between mechanics and theme, and I think this is definitely something that should have DM consideration and a ruling on how the Aura works in the Amia campaign, because of the nebulosity. It is on all the time, maligning all within 10 feet; or is it silent, except for enemies? Can Blackguards hide their evil presence from casual notice, or can they not?

If they can't hide it, can the ability be removed, neglected in the course of BG training, or even bought off with DCs? Being able to walk around and be unassuming is far more valuable to me than a -2 on saves, and it definitely fits with a class that is supposed to be at least on some level sneaky and underhanded.

I do kind of think Ainjyll's points are compelling, but I still have to disagree. A BG Aura of Despair should be far more subtle than Ainjyll and Lutra are describing, both for lore reasons (that interpretation isn't supported anywhere I've read) and for mechanical reasons: to say that all BGs radiate the aura, and that it affects all people at all times, basically amounts to saying that every BG who fails to go around announcing herself as a BG (via /tells or emotes or whatever) is a cheat.

Really, if your character should be entitled to experience this creepy unsettling feeling whenever any BG is within X feet... that can't really be represented mechanically. Until the BG hostiles you, it can only be represented through RP. If the aura is mandatory, constant, obvious, and irrepressible, shouldn't every BG be obligated to notify everybody they meet that they're being affected by it?

Why are you fruitlessly disagreeing with the DM decision in the Lore forum?

Because the decision doesn't make much sense to me, and I'd like to understand it. That's not to say I'm not going to abide by it until I do understand it; of course I will. Just, understanding it is better than not.

LetumLux wrote:

Blackguards may be more of a gray area between mechanics and theme, and I think this is definitely something that should have DM consideration and a ruling on how the Aura works in the Amia campaign, because of the nebulosity. It is on all the time, maligning all within 10 feet; or is it silent, except for enemies? Can Blackguards hide their evil presence from casual notice, or can they not?

Well...honestly we are talking about balckguards who have their power from a devil or a demon and many of them are infused by infernal and abyssal power and traits as they are getting stronger. I find that hard to believe that it would be gray in any form. They are evil and as they are getting stronger the people would definitely notice that.

Not to mention that they are bearing the powers of entities who are far more powerful than the host body.

Letum doesn't mean grey in terms of moral or ethical standing.

Yeah.

I mean between the mechanics and theme, because the theme is almost always dependent on the setting. My side of the debate is that the mechanics don't support what you (Lutra and Dante) are proposing, based on what I've read from the books.

What Ainjyll said about Blackguards' Aura in terms of mechanics and theme, he mentioned as being "food for thought", so I honestly apologize if I misconstrued that as meaning it was his opinion, rather than a DM ruling if that's what it was intended to be.

Because the (book) rules don't spell it out, and I have yet to read something that does, the 'gray area' I mentioned is exactly what we're discussing, and what I think needs spelled-out clarification for Amia. There are things that are up for interpretation, and then there are "cosmic truths" within a game, and if we're to properly RP actions and reactions, we need to know some of them.

Earlier this post, Letum wrote:

It is on all the time, maligning all within 10 feet; or is it silent, except for enemies? Can Blackguards hide their evil presence from casual notice, or can they not?

Because there is a rather important distinction between one or the other, and how it will effect RP (especially if we're not on the same page about it) so this is one of those things I feel like we need to see concise response about.

I'd love to keep debating this, mind you (and that is directed to everyone!) even with a ruling given. I like debating, and I'm not resistant to my opinion shifting through the course of it. It's interesting to see other perspectives of a matter, after all!

Aura of Courage (Su)
Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects.

This ability functions while the paladin is conscious, but not if she is unconscious or dead.

I stole that little snippet from the D&D 3.5 Hypertext here.

I think it's a relevant piece of information since the Blackguard's Aura of Despair is the counter, or opposite, of the Paladin's Aura of Courage (assuming the descriptors being opposite makes them opposites!). This makes me feel like it's only enemies who are affected by the Aura of Despair since only Allies are affected by the Aura of Courage.

Just something to think about! ^^

Agreed, LetumLux, for the reasons you stated and also because I think ruling that the Aura is always on and always perceptible is kind of paving the way for OOC fights over IC stuff: "Waaah, you shouldn't have been able to fool me like that because I should have been able to smell your BG aura! You cheater!" Which would be whiny and petty, but also, under the present ruling, not entirely unjustified.

A little morsel to think about - Blackguards get Hide as a class skill in PnP. I'm not sure why NWN chose to deny them this, and Amia hasn't added it to their class skills list, but it's still interesting to consider:

If the Aura is on and "firing" constantly and felt by everyone in the Aura, a BG who is hiding out will be revealed if anyone passes within 10 ft of them. That sort of makes their Hide useless, since they get Hide but not Move Silently - so they would have to just sit there and grit their teeth as someone walks close enough to them and goes, "Sure feels evil and uncomfortable over here, I bet there's a Blackguard nearby!"

The "Rules" make no real mention anywhere about how a BG's Aura of Despair affects non-hostile or allied individuals. As such, it's left to the DM (or DM's in our case) in charge of the campaign to decide how it works in such a regard. As William Cowper said, the absence of proof is not proof of absence. So, since the sourcebooks make no direct mention of how the Aura of Despair affects neutral/aligned parties it can be assumed that such a discretion is left to the person running the campaign.

Considering this seems to be the major point of contention in this thread, I'll try to explain it again in more detail because it seems that any discrepancy or lack of coverage will be jumped upon and exploited to try to work an angle against the already established ruling.

An Aura of Despair is not like a neon sign over an individual's head screaming, "I'm a Blackguard!". If you think it is, you're wrong. For those of a neutral or good-willed inclination towards the BG in question, being in their presence is much like that cold wind on the back of your neck that gives you goosebumps. It's like that strange creak in your house that you hear when you're watching television and you know that nobody else is home. It's that bump that wakes you up in the middle of the night that you're not sure if you actually heard or just dreamed. It's that shadow that just doesn't quite seem to move right when you walk home late at night by yourself. It's not a palpable feeling of fear. If you've ever walked alone at night and found yourself walking a bit faster for no real reason, if you ever hugged your teddy bear a little tighter when you were going to sleep as a kid, if you ever peeked out the window not knowing what to expect when there was nothing there... then you know the feeling. You can't explain why you feel that way. You can't pinpoint it. It just is.

If a Blackguard was to walk through a crowd of innocent peasants, you probably wouldn't be able to tell from watching (unless the BG in question was wearing pure black spiky armor with a sword glowing red from negative energy). Most people would just continue on their way... ignoring the sudden goosebumps as a cool breeze on the back of their neck, the sudden urge to walk faster as suddenly realizing that they were late on their errand... so on and so forth. It's not a tangible, in-your-face feeling. That aspect of the Aura is reserved for hostile individuals.

@Letum:

Quote:

If the Aura is on and "firing" constantly and felt by everyone in the Aura, a BG who is hiding out will be revealed if anyone passes within 10 ft of them. That sort of makes their Hide useless, since they get Hide but not Move Silently - so they would have to just sit there and grit their teeth as someone walks close enough to them and goes, "Sure feels evil and uncomfortable over here, I bet there's a Blackguard nearby!"

You doomed your argument from the start. "If the Aura is on and 'firing' constantly..." Not if, it is. Always. As was stated earlier, a BG can't turn off their Aura... no more than a paladin can turn off theirs. As to hiding... without the AoD being a palpable feeling, instead being a more subtle feeling that rides in the undercurrent of our psyche, it doesn't give away the BG's location... or that a BG is even there. It may make the person who passes too close look over their shoulder or clutch their belongings a bit tighter, but it doesn't suddenly scream out that a BG is near. The last bit... "Sure feels evil and uncomfortable over here, I bet there's a Blackguard nearby!" While the feeling's source is evil, yes, it doesn't quite radiate out to neutral or allied parties as such (see my examples above). So, unless your character thinks that every bump in the night is a Blackguard hiding (which is possible, I'll admit) odds are that they wouldn't immediately jump to the conclusion that the sudden goosebumps they got are the result of a BG hiding within a close vicinity of them.

@Lizzie:

Lizzie wrote:

Agreed, LetumLux, for the reasons you stated and also because I think ruling that the Aura is always on and always perceptible is kind of paving the way for OOC fights over IC stuff: "Waaah, you shouldn't have been able to fool me like that because I should have been able to smell your BG aura! You cheater!" Which would be whiny and petty, but also, under the present ruling, not entirely unjustified.

It's not a new ruling. It's always been the ruling... since my first character with BG levels (which was my first character on Amia) from before I was ever even considering being a DM (or knew enough about FR to even be considered). This is not a new thing or a point of contention.

TLDR; The Aura of Despair can be a direct reflection of something inherent in the Blackguard's personality... whether by nature or by nurture... or a remnant of their quite literal "deal with the Devil" (or Demon)... or any other number of things, the fact remains that something is off about this individual and it shows.

ainjyll wrote:

You doomed your argument from the start. "If the Aura is on and 'firing' constantly..." Not if, it is. Always. As was stated earlier, a BG can't turn off their Aura... no more than a paladin can turn off theirs.

By "on and firing" I was speaking of being affected by the penalty of the Aura.

Thanks for the feedback/answer on this!

I prefer the pragmatic approach. The description of the ability is scant, but not vague. It uses the word enemy. I looked up the glossary definition of enemy for DnD. "A creature unfriendly to you."

Thus, the Aura of Despair of a BG is always on. It cannot be turned off. But it only affects enemies, which are defined as creatures that are unfriendly to you. Note the definition of enemy and think very hard. A Blackguard, therefore, does not decide who his or her enemies are. The creature decides whether or not they are friendly to you.

In my estimation, a BG is just a normal dude until, oh, he makes fun of a chick's fat ass or the way a man carries a limp wrist. These people, insulted, immediately become unfriendly, but are then subject to the Aura of Despair.

Remember, too, that "unfriendly" is a specific location on the Diplomacy/Attitude chart. Anywhere unfriendly or below (to hostile) would be affected by the Aura.

A BG could attempt to make someone unfriendly by insulting or even attacking them, but if that person is incredibly delusional or has some other serious issue and doesn't attack back (immediately making them hostile) and just kind of flops around like a punching bag, they wouldn't necessarily be unfriendly and thus wouldn't suffer the minus to their saves. Likewise, a BG attempting to cast spells on targets unaware of the BG would not have their saves reduced: they do not know about the BG and thus cannot be unfriendly.

So none of this bullshit about "I am good and the BG is evil so we are COSMICALLY ALWAYS UNFRIENDLY to each other!"

That's not true.

I just think the wording and intent is rather clear to me. The BG can't control the aura, nor can he necessarily control who is friendly or unfriendly to him, but anyone who does become unfriendly or worse suffers a subconscious (or at times conscious) sense of despair, which is defined as hopelessness or lack of hope. Meaning, the target feels that, although the BG is a jerk or an enemy, the BG's "raw personality" or "power" or "character" or however it seems to manifest seems hopeless to withstand.

It's all pretty cut and dry to me.

So a word to Blackguards: you think you're all badass, insulting people and riding your fucking high horse? Insulting people makes them unfriendly to you, and then they suffer your aura. The cleverest among them may glean something about your nature from that.

But a truly badass Blackguard doesn't give a shit. He despairs all the things.

Yossarin wrote:

So a word to Blackguards: you think you're all badass, insulting people and riding your fucking high horse? Insulting people makes them unfriendly to you, and then they suffer your aura. The cleverest among them may glean something about your nature from that.

But a truly badass Blackguard doesn't give a shit. He despairs all the things.

I definitely resonate with that.

Also a very appreciated post. Thank you for it, Yossarin.

LetumLux wrote:

CelestialDante wrote:

Paladins love the feeling they get when a black guard sneaks by

But to repeat what has been said to me, the evil aura is palpable.

For aforementioned reasons, a Paladin walking by a Blackguard (who may not be obviously a Blackguard) should not be able to sense without magic or other special abilities that they are, in fact, a Blackguard just because they have Aura of Despair - unless/until it comes to be that one or the other comes hostile to the other, and therefore an "Enemy". That is what a Paladin's own Supernatural, Spell-like Abilities and Spells are for.- but that doesn't mean that they suddenly gain preternatural instincts to sniff out a Blackguard who might be hiding their nature, just as a function of their Aura, until they actually "trigger" the Aura.

... I was just joking about the paladin comment ...

How does one go about with the pact and everything for a diety not being evil? For an example a blackguard of helm? Am sure there are many others that are in this area that the God permits evil PCs to worship and even grant them spells and technically could have blackguards.

Evil aligned Holy Warriors. No need for pacts at all as far as I know.

I think it's more like you make a pact with the God instead of a demon/devil. They give you power, you serve their dogma and your soul for sure goes to them no matter what. They still need you for their own power in the end.

ILoveIceCream wrote:

I think it's more like you make a pact with the God instead of a demon/devil. They give you power, you serve their dogma and your soul for sure goes to them no matter what. They still need you for their own power in the end.

Not in the example Charles is asking about. The Blackguard must be in a pact with an evil Outsider. Thus a non-evil deity cannot enter into that pact because doing so is an evil act.

What you have moreso in those situations is precisely the opposite of what icecream says: a pact made with an evil outsider, often fiendish in nature. Why? Obvious. "In order to serve Helm diligently, I must be able to stand at the ready all hours of the day and night and have the strength to fend off thongs far more powerful than I am." And so ibstead of turning to their deity for strength, which often results in nothing, they tirn to more obvious measures. "Helm, I hereby barter my immortal soul wih this fiend so that I might serve my duty now above and beyond my own abilities and expectations."

Sure, my example is simplistic, but that is how Blackguards serving non evil deities usually would come to pass. Or, alternatively, being a Blackguard was something they felt they had no choice in, and has nothing to do with the deity they serve. "My girlfriend has been kidnapped by evil neck romancers, and the only way I can defeat them is with the power you can grant me, Rider. Though I will serve Helm to my last living breath, my soul will be yours in the beyond!"

And I use souls just as an example. Not every Blackguard pact is a soul bartering.

(( Yos had to stop when you typed thongs not thugs.

))

Okay that makes more sense to me then, wanting to not be autofallen or something. So it would highly depend on the dm being involved on first level blackguard?

Out of curiousity, if the aura is always active how then can it be dispelled? I have this happen to my BG aura as well as KC offensive aura.

Why hide? Create an underdark Drow and enjoy that aura's effect on everyone.

D&D mechanics answer: Aura of Despair is a supernatural ability. It can be suppressed by anti-magic. Should it be possible for it to be dispelled? Technically not (though here the DM team have the final say), but the NWN engine is what it is.

Finding an adequate IC explanation is a bit beyond me, namely coming up with a reason for which an ability which is constantly active gets suppressed until the BG rests and activates it once more.

If it's a supernatural ability it should rely on the Weave, and "Dispel Magic" is stated to "smooth out the strands of the weave to its normal state" which would effectively dispel such an effect. Of course, one would then wonder why you can't dispel other Supernatural effects, so... shrug!

serbiris wrote:

If it's a supernatural ability it should rely on the Weave, and "Dispel Magic" is stated to "smooth out the strands of the weave to its normal state" which would effectively dispel such an effect. Of course, one would then wonder why you can't dispel other Supernatural effects, so... shrug!

Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. It's why your Mord don't work on a shifter's form.

Spell-like Abilities however, can be dispelled.

I know it doesn't actually work, but according to FR lore what dispel magic does is specifically revert the target area of weave to its ordinary form. Given that supernatural effects work through the Weave, dispel magic *should* affect them, and that would be the only lore explanation that can be conjured for why it works on the Aura of Despair on NWN. Not that it matters, because it should probably just be considered bug/oversight. Besides, it could probably be arguedthat while Supernatural effects do work through the weave, the changes they produce (such as shifting) can't be reverted when the Weave is "smoothed out" by a dispel.

It's just a weird lore/mechanics thing.

The Aura of Despair should definitely not be dispellable, or even removable via anti-magic rays or whatever. I think it's been established already that the aura is always active on a blackguard. NWN mechanics simply necessiate for blackguards to turn it on for an actual, mechanical effect. I think this issue should be addressed, if at all possible.

So even if the aura was somehow removed, if you entered an anti-magic zone, for example, it'd just re-activate as soon as you left the zone. Or...?

Blackguards!

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