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Hello boys and girls,

I was wondering if anyone knew about how races perceive the roles of other races pantheons. In particular how a dwarf faithful of the Morndinsamman would view the roles of the gods of the 'mainstream' human pantheon and their particular domains, but this could apply to any race, elves, halflings etc. For example would a dwarf acknowledge Kelemvor as being the god of the dead? or would they see the domain of the dead as being a something a dwarf god would take care of for dwarves? (even though deaths not in any of their portfolios, or would Moradin have that being their creator god?)

Thanks for any feedback on this..

I think there's probably not any good blanket answer for this. In general, members of the non-human races tend to be highly partial to their own racial pantheons, but in any specific case, it's going to hugely depend on the individual's unique circumstances.

(As a side note, Dumathoin is explicitly the god of the Morndinsamman tasked with guardianship of dwarven dead. It's not represented in his domains, but it's still part of his dogma.)

I believe the Amian answer is that Kelemvor may or may not have agreements made with other gods of death from other pantheons. At least to use Fugue as a common place for keeping newly departed souls I imagine. But I'm of the camp that believes that's the extent of it. There's nothing special about Kelemvor, probably the "youngest" god of death in the Realms, that would require every other god of death to respect him as the head authority of the afterlife. They might use his home as storage space, but that's about it.

So to answer your question about Dwarves in general, they may venerate other deities that share a common tie with their own pantheon. Gond is one I can think of that Dwarves might care for. Waukeen probably gets some nice respect from dwarves that worship Vergadain. Dwarves that have Dugmaren Brightmantle as their patron might venerate Oghma and Shaundakul as well. It really is a matter of individual dwarf and circumstance like Lizzie said, however. Some dwarves are traditional and cultural isolationists, while others that live in diversely populated areas and trade may put some interest into other pantheons.

Throwing my 5 elven cents out there,
I have difficulties understanding elves who grew up in an elven villagetown/tribe/island and afterwards suddenly turn faith into something outside the Seldarine pantheon.

I believe that it's much like the difference between christianity and islam, if you grow up to become a christian you'd need a hell of a reason to suddenly turn into a muslim.

Well that's the thing, elves generally don't "suddenly" do anything when it comes to religion, tradition, or culture.

But with the Elven Retreat and the Quessir that are left in the lands of the other races slowly settling down, it's not impossible. Those elves not going to Evermeet might feel lest adamant about the "elven ideals" that their peers are always going on about. Just because one grows up in an elven town/village/etc, it's important to remember that elves have extremely long lifetimes. It's quite possible to undergo a number of epiphanies and outlook changes simply because they've the opportunity to experience so much.

It's really not worth it to bring RL religion into it as the examples will always be less than complete(two different realities with cultures and social structures all their own), but some of the same reasoning applies when it comes to conversion. Rebellion for the sake of youth, a traumatic event, a beneficial event, a faith that better suits one's perspective, social standing, and the list just goes on. All things an elf has pretty of time to see happen. All the same, it is less likely to happen suddenly because they're generally slow to change. Doesn't really speak here or there when it comes to if it has any higher or lower chance of happening, though.

Understand CL perfectly, Eilith, and then read between the lines/intuit what elven culture has adopted from living in a human dominant world and you will suddenly understand many reasons why elves might flirt outside the Seldarine. It is an insidious little detail.

Generally, Dwarves might acknowledge Kelemovor as being -A- God of the dead, but not -thee- god of the dead. They have their own Gods.

There really isn't a blanket statement to apply here though, except to say that the different races would recognize Gods of other races as Gods of their respective portfolios, but the Gods of their people would be seen as #1 for them. The race most likely to look at a Human God as a God that would bless them just as well as a God specific to their race are the Hin (Halflings). The least likely would probably be the Dwarves, with Elves and Gnomes somewhere in between those two.

Remember that the Gods of the Forgotten Realms are very real to everyone. It's not as it is in real life, where there's no hard proof and is a matter of belief. Faith in the Realms is a matter of fact -and- belief.

In the real world, some people might look at faith that aren't their own as false, untrue, fake or even silly. In the Realms, someone can think a faith silly or false to a degree, but there's rarely room to doubt it's real. The Gods are very real to the people of Toril. All of them.

And yes, Dumathoin is equivalent to Kelemvor for Dwarves. He's their God of the dead.

Thanks for the responses, all very helpful. A follow-up question.. would a Dwarf believe their gods could or would extend blessings to other races? Say a dwarf wishing Clandeggin would protect a human/elf/halfling party member in battle or Moradin wishing them success in crafting. Or do Dwarf think that their gods are exclusive to Dwarves only and to think something like this would be silly for a dwarf.

I imagine that would depend on the specific person the dwarf is attempting to bless. Would a cleric of Moradin feel okay about lending combat buffs to, say, a human cleric of Helm or Torm, both long-standing allies of Moradin's? Yeah, I imagine probably so. An orcish follower of Ilneval? Just about certainly not.

The gods channel spells to their followers for the purpose of advancing their godly interests and promoting their dogma. "Here, mortal, take these gifts and blessings and go out and promote dwarvenness and smithcraft," says Moradin. If working alongside a human or elf for a while turns out to be a good way of doing that, it seems probable to me that a pragmatic sort of guy like Moradin would be in favor, yeah?

It is rather undeniable that empirically, dwarven gods do infact (allow their clerics to) bless other races. In general, clerics are meant to use the spells they're given, and the idea of an adventuring priest who withholds his spells is pretty silly (though makes for an interesting character concept). No doubt there are also non-dwarven priests or other followers in most dwarven faiths, though rarely. A human raised by dwarves could very well become a divine champion of Haela Brightaxe, or something. So it's more of a question whether dwarves think other races are worthy of this blessing. That is a matter of theological, political and moral debate In Character.

I'm not entirely sure about this, but I think that while faithful prayer empowers a god (hence why the most powerful gods tend to be those with the largest following), a cleric actually drains a god's power with his/her spellcasting as the power for these is provided directly by his/her god. It's a minor drain, but it's still there.

The result of this is that sensible clerics wouldn't toss around their spells at a whim or use powerful spells (which drain more power), when lesser spells would do. By extent, the most successful cleric (in the eyes of his/her god) would be the one that accomplishes the most with the smallest expendature of 'prayer power'.

As such, most clerics would/should be thought during their basic training to consider whether casting a spell would directly advance his/her god's agenda. If it can't be justified, it would not only be abusive of the granted power, it would also be disrespectful to the cleric's god and reveal an amount of corruption - as even evil clerics are above all servants.

Quote:

I imagine that would depend on the specific person the dwarf is attempting to bless. Would a cleric of Moradin feel okay about lending combat buffs to, say, a human cleric of Helm or Torm, both long-standing allies of Moradin's? Yeah, I imagine probably so. An orcish follower of Ilneval? Just about certainly not.

In this example, empowering the Illneval orc is an act that goes directly against Moradin's agenda (though arguably, Moradin doesn't explicitely demand the opposition of orcs, AFAIK). While it wouldn't cause Moradin to personally punish the offending cleric, it would still be frowned upon by his peers - and -they- might enact some sort of punishment for it, depending on how strict they are.

That may be so - I don't think it's specifically stated anywhere, but it sounds reasonable and cool. But you also need to consider that casting, acknowledging and receiving a divine spell is an act of worship. And worship empowers a god. So a cleric shouldn't generally have to feel iffy about using spells generously for a good purpose because it generates worship. Your adventure buddy being grateful to you and your god for the buffs you gave him invigorates your god, even if the magic is used for a mundane task like looting some kobold cave. The same no doubt applies to the fear and possible respect your enemies feel towards your god when you smite them with holy power. So a spell well used should usually "cover its costs" and then some.

Eilith Vonath'ti wrote:

Throwing my 5 elven cents out there,
I have difficulties understanding elves who grew up in an elven villagetown/tribe/island and afterwards suddenly turn faith into something outside the Seldarine pantheon.

That is rather easy to explain, as wild elves often don't follow the seldarine but stick to natural aspects of a mixture of nature gods and elven gods, often using names and spirit animals that stray waaay from elven ideals of the seldarine.
As for the other elves, I would still think that elven druids and rangers would venerate the nature gods on almost equal footing with the elven gods, not to mention worship the elven aspects of those gods like the elven aspect of mielikki, and with them comes a lot of other aspects of other gods not to mention that some human gods go way "racial", selune for example i would easily find justification for a elf to follow as she is practically the paragon of good and another very close ally of the seldarine.

I don't necessarily dispute your larger point that some elves do look outside of the Seldarine for their worship, but I do think your examples are kind of terrible.

I think the most common motivation for an elf/dwarf/hin/whatever to look beyond their own pantheon is if she finds herself drawn to a phenomenon or philosophy that her pantheon doesn't interact with. The Seldarine, for example, doesn't have a god directly concerned with things like law and justice, so an elf who feels especially passionately about those concepts might find fulfillment in Tyr or Torm. An elf who dedicates herself intensely to mercantilism might look to Waukeen, since there's nothing for her in the Seldarine.

Lyle Torrowfire was a good example of this: his circumstances became such that by necessity he had to overridingly concern himself with lunar cycles and lycanthropy. The hin pantheon couldn't help him get a handle on any of that, but Selune could. For the elves, on the other hand, there's nothing that Selune could offer them that Sehanine Moonbow couldn't. There's just not much incentive for a functioning member of elven society to look outside of elven society for moon worship. The same for nature gods: Rillifane and Solonor and Angharradh have that stuff covered, for the elves (and the "spirit animals" you're referring to are just servitor aspects of those gods).

Amia is, of course, a terrible example of what the mainstream of any culture would be like, since we're all adventurers and immigrants and orphans and exiles and people who, for whatever reason, go against the grain. Societal outliers are going to be a lot more common here (as they should be). But if we're talking about the baseline cultural defaults, I think you'd find far, far less cross-pantheon straying in the general populace than you do among the adventuring class.

Eilith Vonath'ti wrote:

I believe that it's much like the difference between christianity and islam, if you grow up to become a christian you'd need a hell of a reason to suddenly turn into a muslim.

Prison

GreatPigeon wrote:

Eilith Vonath'ti wrote:

I believe that it's much like the difference between christianity and islam, if you grow up to become a christian you'd need a hell of a reason to suddenly turn into a muslim.

Prison

as a christian that converted to islam I can tell you there isn't much of a difference between the beliefs of the two, except christians see jesus as god/god's son while islam sees him as just one of many prophets.

Judeo-christian mythology is really similar across the board and only truly differs on regional customs and traditions, which are the main cause for all the strife we see around it.

However, to keep this FR, I would simply stray away from insulting or mocking another regional deity when they have physical manifestations and powers present in the world. Unlike RL, where I can say whatever I feel about _____ and not be smitten, I think there are more ramifications to slander in our setting. Maybe not smiting, but the potential is always there in some form.

Orcus orcus orcus orcus orcus orcus orcus orcus

Case in point: North Cordor, once upon a time.

Mercedes wrote:

Orcus orcus orcus orcus orcus orcus orcus orcus

Yossarin wrote:

Case in point: North Cordor, once upon a time.

Wo is me, I hath called the very essence of evil unto this thread! Yonder folken informed me so, verily, but I did not heed them! I DID NOT HEED THEM!

Selune, Silvanus, Eldath and Mielikki are pretty popular gods among Elves. As respected Gods and as patrons for those who stray from the Seldarine.

That's true, at least in the case of Silvanus, Eldath, and Mielikki. I can see Selune in certain cases, but I'd imagine she's not exactly popular to the elves like the other three would be. I also think that the worship of Silvanus, Eldath, and Mielikki is being connotated as an either/or for the Seldarine and those three, when that's pretty misleading. An elf wouldn't necessarily leave the Seldarine to join Mielikki, they're just that close to each other to begin with. Kranium's comment about wild elves worshipping the nature gods instead of the Seldarine is slightly incorrect. They typically worship the nature gods -along with- the Seldarine, and it's usually social outliers that leave the Seldarine altogether. In fact, out of all the elven subraces, I'd say moon elves, and not the wild elves, are most likely to leave the Seldarine.

Yeah, if we're talking about elves revering other gods alongside the Seldarine, then I suppose I pretty much agree with that. I was thinking in terms of elves abandoning the Seldarine altogether.

Races and other pantheons

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