AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Teach a Man to Fish topic (Build topic):

>>"Druid 5/shifter 17/DC 8 lets you focus on the dragon shape more, get to use other epic feats to increase AC or AB"

But doesn't shifter 17 mean I don't GET other epic feats except GreatWIS x6 and Dragonshape?

(Also, quick poll: is Outsider shape worth it? I'm not taking Undead for rp reasons, but quite want Construct and Dragon.)

Shifter 17 loses out on Epic Greater Wildshape IV.

5/19/6 also only lets you have all shapes if you take a +WIS race.

steveb_uk wrote:

>>"Druid 5/shifter 17/DC 8 lets you focus on the dragon shape more, get to use other epic feats to increase AC or AB"

But doesn't shifter 17 mean I don't GET other epic feats except GreatWIS x6 and Dragonshape?

(Also, quick poll: is Outsider shape worth it? I'm not taking Undead for rp reasons, but quite want Construct and Dragon.)

What Sune said. I was thinking of the Ffolk subrace with those builds. You can grab construct shape instead of outsider along with armor skin or epic prowess, or whatever you desire. Outsider shapes are fine, construct are alright too. Whatever fits your character.

Example of the build.

Str: 13 - 12
Dex: 8
Con: 9 - 10
Int: 15 - 14
Wis: 18 - 19 - 30
Cha: 8

1 D - Feats: Alertness, Luck of Heroes
2 D
3 D - Feat: Expertise
4 D - Wis: 20
5 D
6 S - Feat: Improved Expertise, Greater Wildshape I
7 S
8 S - Wis: 21, Greater Wildshape II
9 S - Feat: Knockdown
10 S - Greater Wildshape III
11 S
12 S - Feat: Weapon Focus: Something, Humanoid Shape, Wis: 22
13 DC
14 DC - Feat: Blindfight
15 DC - Feat: Great Fortitude
16 DC - Feat: Lightning Reflexes, Wis: 23
17 S
18 DC - Feat: Improved Critical: Unarmed
19 DC - Feat: Improved Knockdown
20 DC - Wis: 24
21 S - Feat: Great Wis I
22 S - Greater Wildshape IV
23 S - Epic Wyrmling Shape
24 S - Feat: Great Wis II, Wis: 27
25 S - Feat: Construct Shape, Unlimited Humanoid Shape
26 S
27 S - Feat: Armor Skin
28 S - Feat: Great Wis III, Wis: 29
29 DC - Feat: Great Wis IV, Skill dump
30 S - Feat: Dragon Shape, Skill dump

steveb_uk wrote:

>>"Druid 5/shifter 17/DC 8 lets you focus on the dragon shape more, get to use other epic feats to increase AC or AB"

But doesn't shifter 17 mean I don't GET other epic feats except GreatWIS x6 and Dragonshape?

(Also, quick poll: is Outsider shape worth it? I'm not taking Undead for rp reasons, but quite want Construct and Dragon.)

Outsider Shape is very powerful. Azer has nice utility with Flame Weapon, which can be BoT'd, crits for a lot of damage, and has Fire Bolt, which will melt anything with Fire weakness. Rakshasa is anti-magic at its finest and the king of cheese if hasted. Death Slaad is pretty decent all around, but the most stand-out trait for it is the chaos spittle, which is a good magical damage bolt.

Not taking Undead is going to hurt you though. Not only are all the forms very powerful, but they're your bread and butter forms as soon as you hit epic; 18-20 is a very awkward and weak period for Shifters that usually gets resolved when you get Undead. Undead remains useful all the way into 30, except in the Abyss, where you'll get slaughtered by Mass Heals.

I'm personally not a fan of dragon because the model is gigantic to the point where you're limited to the areas you can really use it in. You have problems moving through doorways even on medium sized forms like Manticore, and it's almost impossible to get through any interior dungeon with forms like Construct because you can't even fit through gaps or get around party members. That said, it is probably the strongest form overall, so go for it if you want it.

Just my personal insight/opinion as someone who's played/leveled a Shifter recently.

Cleave, Great Cleave, Circle Kick.

When they activate and there is more than one available target within range, do they just randomly choose a target, or do they analyse whichever is the largest threat, or lowest AC, etc. ?

dont take circle kick, rebuild from scratch if you have to to get rid of it

ILoveIceCream wrote:

dont take circle kick, rebuild from scratch if you have to to get rid of it

+1. That is extremely bad feat to take. Smart people learn from mistakes, stupid people from their own mistakes. So, learn from this stupid git (a.k.a. me) and don't take it. Ever.

I can't say I ever noticed much of a pattern to Cleave. I think the targetting is random.

Apart from Monk, how else do you get really, really ridiculous AC?

Does it have to be dex-based? Is heavy armour + shield anywhere near comparable, or do you *need* spells/potions as well?

steveb_uk wrote:

Does it have to be dex-based? Is heavy armour + shield anywhere near comparable, or do you *need* spells/potions as well?

Heavy armor: 8 base + 1 dex + 5 armor ench = 14

Dex base: 0 armor + 15 dex + 5 armor = 20 (+15 dex is quite feasible, +14 with non-dex bonus race)

Considering both can use same shield...answer is clear.

Yeah, DEX-based builds are ridiculous with AC and it's really hard to top them, since you can buff your DEX higher than the base bonus from armor. Their offset is less damage and having to spend a feat on Weapon Finesse (which for a Monk is not a big deal).

Also, wearing armor as a Monk forces you to loose your WIS-bonus to AC, Monk level bonus to AC, and additional unarmed APR.

Monks can attain the highest AC overall, especially if they do something weird like mix in Palemaster. Great Smiters are a close second only because they hit the dodge cap too early.

If we talk 'effective' AC, bards rank at the top, too.

There's nothing that says a Dexterity based character can't use Divine Shield. :idea:

dex based palemaster/sd can get 95ac and epic dodge 100+ hide/ms and HIPS for the lols, if you just want pure AC and nothing else.

Shut up about that terrible, terrible build. It's cheesy and complete BS.

Rules & Lore wrote:

Tenser's Transformation
Casting this spell gives the caster the properties of:

• +d4 STR, +d4 DEX, +d4 CON
• Simple Weapon Proficiency, Martial Weapon Proficiency
• +1 AB per 2 caster levels to a maximum of 10
• +10 Discipline
• +d6 Temporary Hit Points per caster level
• 100% Spell Failure

Are these all the effects of Tenser's Transformation? i.e., does the Amia version of the spell still replace your own weapon with a comically useless +3 longsword?

You keep your weapon.

Interesting thing I heard but never tried: In the stock version (might have been fixed in patches) of NWN, Tenser's set your base race to Elf. It was possible to take a level in Arcane Archer even as a non-elven race.

Hm. Does the Amia version even stick you with that stupid polymorph at all? Like, you'd keep your own armor and shield and items, too?

You keep everything.

ILoveIceCream wrote:

dex based palemaster/sd can get 95ac and epic dodge 100+ hide/ms and HIPS for the lols, if you just want pure AC and nothing else.

When you're considering an effective build you need to consider more than just AC anyway. AC isn't a lot of use if the guy swinging madly at you (and muttering a few choice curses) decides to dig out that wand they were saving for a rainy day. If you're going for an Epic Dodge build you want to be making use of its advantages by doing as much damage to your opponents as you can.

So if you have lots of sneak dice for example, you change targets to something that isn't attacking you (especially if you have Crippling Strike and want to cripple moar). If you're a caster, you engage Defensive Casting Mode and start throwing out debuffs, straight damage spells, or buff anything that's on your side. If you're a barbarian, rage on, man. If you're a melee monster, wail on the nastiest things on the field.

You're still going to take damage from attacks during each round, but you're going to avoid the alpha strike from a melee or ranged fighter (in other words the first attack that would actually hit during that round) and any attacks you have to face after that are down the attack chain at -5, -10, -15 to AB. True, that's not going to be much use if you have several opponents focusing on you at once, but that's why you have other defensive aspects to keep you in the green.

Boosting one defensive aspect to the detriment of the rest of the build just shoots you in the foot and makes it hell to actually level.

At level 14 and 18, assassins can pick crippling strike as a bonus feat. But it says the crippling strike will not function unless the assassin has at least one rank of sneak attack.

So my query is, assuming the assassin doesn't have any rogue levels or levels in anything else that would get him sneak attack, will the Crippling Strike ability function if he has an item that confers upon him at least one rank in sneak attack?

Genar_Detkasa wrote:

At level 14 and 18, assassins can pick crippling strike as a bonus feat. But it says the crippling strike will not function unless the assassin has at least one rank of sneak attack.

So my query is, assuming the assassin doesn't have any rogue levels or levels in anything else that would get him sneak attack, will the Crippling Strike ability function if he has an item that confers upon him at least one rank in sneak attack?

I think it's been mentioned before that it will, but I would wait for someone that knows to say so.

Genar_Detkasa wrote:

At level 14 and 18, assassins can pick crippling strike as a bonus feat. But it says the crippling strike will not function unless the assassin has at least one rank of sneak attack.

So my query is, assuming the assassin doesn't have any rogue levels or levels in anything else that would get him sneak attack, will the Crippling Strike ability function if he has an item that confers upon him at least one rank in sneak attack?

Yes.

Thanks! Good to know

This one's for shifting enthusiasts!

I'm facing a trade-off of a few different feats, and need to work out what the best choice will be overall. On this shifter, I will have 20 shifter levels. He has Construct and Dragonshape, and I have the possibility of picking one of the following feats:
- Outsider Shape
- Undead Shape
- Epic Prowess
- Armor Skin

Those four seem to be the most helpful. AB seems acceptable in most forms, but the fact that all forms would get the bonus is nice. The +2 AC seems to be much needed for Dragonshape, since the AC on that thing is severely lacking. That'd also work on all shapes. Then there's Outsider, which I'd most likely mainly use Rakshasa and Azer. Or Undead, which is nice for the lolz, and has Spectre.

Thoughts?!

Edit: Also, if I don't choose for a Shape on that last level, then I could take another of my other class, which means another +2ac from finishing tumble. The Armor Skin option would therefore grant a total of +4ac to all shapes. Is that worth forgoing Outsider/Undead?

I'd have to suggest Outsider shape as it fills out what construct/Undead shape don't, that being the spammable ice storm and SoVs for use while PvMing with parties.

Gobbledygook wrote:

Also, if I don't choose for a Shape on that last level, then I could take another of my other class, which means another +2ac from finishing tumble. The Armor Skin option would therefore grant a total of +4ac to all shapes. Is that worth forgoing Outsider/Undead?

Take your tumble dump at 29, then your 19th level at 30... You'll get both tumble and one freely selected epic form, along with your (lame) dragonshape.

If I had to pick between Undead and Outsider, I would take Outsider. Sorry to all undead enthusiasts, the latter is simply better for a dedicated Shifter. Ideally, you'd have both, but I understand that it's not RP plausible for those Shifters who are also druids.

Working on a mage build, thinking of either 23 or 26 caster levels. I'm planning on Spell Focus feats to overcome spell saves. But now I'm wondering about Spell Resistance. Reading NWN Wiki, I see it's based on caster levels, and there are a surprising number of spells that have it.

So my question is: for PvE, how common is Spell Resistance at epic levels? Is there a rule of thumb as to the minimum number of caster levels to reasonably overcome SR? Is it a big deal, or just a minor nuisance?

You'll manage either way. In the grand scheme of things, the contribution of penetrating enemy SR to PvE survivability seems fairly insignificant. Besides, having only CL 23 adds to your competence as a fighter, so that ought to measure up to the alternative. In the end it's a matter of where you choose to hunt. Spell resistance is common at epic levels, but it is more of a minor nuisance and I doubt it'll do much good to risk traversing the toughest hunting grounds without having a solid party at your side.

Hey Im new to the whole build crunching thing....Im working on a halfling character kind of want him to be a ninja-esque type, mostly a good pvm dude not really super concerned with pvp at all cause I really just like questing in groups. I was leaning towards a rogue/monk/shadow dancer because this kind of seems ninja esque etc but given the Amia changes to shadow dancer im not sure how to adapt the build. I was thinking something like 12 rogue/12 monk/6 shadow dancer? Im really wanting HiPS for cool sneak attacking etc...Any suggestions?

15 rogue/9monk/6sd would work, I think.

15 rogue isn't giving you anything special.

Take 1 more monk for 1 more ac
Take 1 more shadowdancer for free slippery mind

13/10/7

A question on Spellswords or selfbuffing tanks in general: Most spells have 1Round/CL duration. 10 Rounds = 10 x 6 seconds = 1 Minute real time. That means a typical Spellsword (23 Wizard, 6 Fighter, +1) has only about 4.5 minutes Tensors duration for an extended Tensor's. Analogous for a Battle Cleric with Divine Power.

Is that not too short? Buff, run around 4 minutes, rebuff etc. Is that playable et all?

Well, it's closer to 3.5 minutes in duration than 4.5 on a caster level 23 spellsword, but that aside, it is still very playable and spellblades are one of the strongest classes in PvM.

Torin wrote:

A question on Spellswords or selfbuffing tanks in general: Most spells have 1Round/CL duration. 10 Rounds = 10 x 6 seconds = 1 Minute real time. That means a typical Spellsword (23 Wizard, 6 Fighter, +1) has only about 4.5 minutes Tensors duration for an extended Tensor's. Analogous for a Battle Cleric with Divine Power.

Is that not too short? Buff, run around 4 minutes, rebuff etc. Is that playable et all?

Yep, completely playable. My spellsword is 24 Wiz/5 Fighter/1 Rogue and I think I only prepare three or four Tenser's, not even maxed or extended. You have to remember that you are rocking a ton of other buffs already and you usually have an epic summon and your familiar to help out as well.

Even on 23 Wiz I didn't notice it being that much of an issue. Typically with four Tenser's I would still hit the rest mark before using the last one. You just don't use them constantly :3

I thank you both and give my spellsword (or better spellkama) a try.

Quote:

15 rogue isn't giving you anything special.

Take 1 more monk for 1 more ac
Take 1 more shadowdancer for free slippery mind

13/10/7

Is it super imperative what order the levels are taken in?

Torin wrote:

A question on Spellswords or selfbuffing tanks in general: Most spells have 1Round/CL duration. 10 Rounds = 10 x 6 seconds = 1 Minute real time. That means a typical Spellsword (23 Wizard, 6 Fighter, +1) has only about 4.5 minutes Tensors duration for an extended Tensor's. Analogous for a Battle Cleric with Divine Power.

Is that not too short? Buff, run around 4 minutes, rebuff etc. Is that playable et all?

I noticed that I hardly ever bothered with using Tenser's with my spellsword, except when fighting something tricky or dangerous with high AC. You will get a feel for it when you face off against different things. Certainly useful, but not needed all the time.

Tanglebones wrote:

Quote:

15 rogue isn't giving you anything special.

Take 1 more monk for 1 more ac
Take 1 more shadowdancer for free slippery mind

13/10/7

Is it super imperative what order the levels are taken in?

If you want to optimize your saves and grab discipline and use-magic-device dumps at the end, yes.

Ulir wrote:

Torin wrote:

A question on Spellswords or selfbuffing tanks in general: Most spells have 1Round/CL duration. 10 Rounds = 10 x 6 seconds = 1 Minute real time. That means a typical Spellsword (23 Wizard, 6 Fighter, +1) has only about 4.5 minutes Tensors duration for an extended Tensor's. Analogous for a Battle Cleric with Divine Power.

Is that not too short? Buff, run around 4 minutes, rebuff etc. Is that playable et all?

I noticed that I hardly ever bothered with using Tenser's with my spellsword, except when fighting something tricky or dangerous with high AC. You will get a feel for it when you face off against different things. Certainly useful, but not needed all the time.

Exactly, this is why I only have 3/4 at a time. I only need them at certain times lol

Is there a rule of thumb to planning this sort of thing out? Ie: certain levels should always be taken with certain classes when using them in a multi class build or is it something that needs to be plotted out for each specific build? Sorry Im pretty new to the mechanics of this game.

Pre-epic, 8 monk 4 shadowdancer 8 rogue, starting with rogue of course for the skill points.

Epic fill in the rest.
Get your 9th monk level early in epic to get free improved evasion
Get, your last rogue level at 27 to take epic dodge.

For epic dodge you will need 30 tumble (level 27), defensive roll (5th level sd), improved evasion (9th level Monk) and dexterity 25...

I recommend you take crippling strike as your level 10 bonus feat on the rogue, as all your other feats for epic dodge are taken care of for you already.

The obvious idea is to focus in kamas to take max benefit of the monkiness this build possesses.

I would recommend an alternative, go 13/7/10 Rogue/Monk/SD, You still get improved evasion, and getting 10 SD opens up a lot of RP opportunities. You lose 10% speed, 1 AC, and have a slightly lower wis AC cap, but better SD abilities and the ability to teach shadowjump.

Ok so I am generally not that good with coming up with stuff but here goes.

Been thinking of a sneaker build.

Race: Human
Stats:
STR 15
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 16
WIS 10
CHA 8

5 wizard, 10 pm and then comes the decision. Rogue or Assassin?
Will be spending all points into STR from start to finish so I have opted for going a 2H instead of dual wield or Sword and Board.

With the base INT I think DC for DA will be around 30. 30 save on fort is easy at lvl 30 so perhaps Rogue is the way to go? more skills, 10th level+ feats at 10 and 13 for rogue?

Shifter with monk splash, i. e. for a 5 Druid, 19 Shifter, 6 monk:
a) Do they get wisdom AC (I know, its caped on Amia), 6 AC in that case ?
b) get shapes with creature weapon monk's unarmed base attack bonus ?

Silklocke, I'd take rogue for feats and the skills I think. But assassin can have some interesting rp, they also get nice abilities.

Torin. No there is no monk ac for shapes. But the fists do help

Edited for clarity

Torin wrote:

Shifter with monk splash, i. e. for a 5 Druid, 19 Shifter, 6 monk:
a) Do they get wisdom AC (I know, its caped on Amia), 6 AC in that case ?
b) get shapes with creature weapon monk's unarmed base attack bonus ?

Plus you get the tasty Improved Knockdown, increased speed and cleave. However, you won't be getting 4 attacks per round with anything other than fists, I believe.

Knight commander Auras.... do they stack?

The same aura does not stack from different KCs, no.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

The same aura does not stack from different KCs, no.

Not 100% but I could have sworn the healaura stacks from what I've seen.

The Official Teach a Man to Fish topic (Build topic):

Who is online