AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

How do we/you work with that? A sorcerer is a person that Casts innate magic without preparation, unlike wizards. Their casting is also charisma based, I could go as far as to say it's based out of emotio - emotion and willforce.
But sorcerers and pnp spells doesn't work in my head.I cannot fathom a sorcerer studying up to learn a myriad of useful cantrips, like mages hand or such.

What I am asking is - while wizards can point to their scrapbook send say "I know how to cast levitate, magic rune and what not in true OOTS style, how does a sorcerer do it? I mean, technically, we could all play sorcerers who knew every pnp spell from the books.
Wizards need to pretty much prove it, no?

I hope its not to confusing.

You pick a specific number of spells at level-up, as a sorcerer. That's what you know. If you pick utility spells, you give up combat spells, and vice versa.

Sorcerers are fully capable of learning PnP spells, but the number of spells they know overall does not change. They can't know every cantrip, no. Wizards are far more likely to have PnP spells at the ready because they don't have to pick and choose which spells they want to be able to cast (prior to a levelup where they can at least change it around a bit sometimes).

Personally, I don't like sorcerers on Amia having PnP spells unless it is explicitly stated (perhaps in their bio) that they have switched x NWN spell out for y PnP spell. And if that's the case, they should not use the spell they're using to symbolize the PnP spell outside of symbolizing the PnP spell. For example, my old sorcerer Riia knew Scrying, Prestidigitation, and a few others, which I emulated with specific, predetermined in-game spells. I identified which was which in her bio and never used Daze or any other chosen emulation spell except in situations where I was emulating the PnP spell.

But that's just me! It's certainly not something the DMs have restricted in any way.

Despite my poorly written question you Both managed to answer it. Now I kinda understand it better. I wasn't aware the 3/spells known also applied to pnp spells, y'see. I was more asking for clarification about the amian standard.

But you gave me a better answer

They pretty much have it right. If, as a sorc, you want your character to know a PnP spell, then it should be explicitly stated somewhere and the spell used to "emulate" the PnP version should never be used save for when the PnP spell it is being used to "emulate" is called for.

Sorcerers can take the "A unique spell (self/ranged)" spells, right? That would probably be a good way to go, for representing a spell that's not actually mechanically implemented in game.

I admit I hadn't played Riia or cast her PnP spells since before those unique spells were available. That's an option, too. Same with the other named ones that don't do anything.

ainjyll wrote:

They pretty much have it right. If, as a sorc, you want your character to know a PnP spell, then it should be explicitly stated somewhere and the spell used to "emulate" the PnP version should never be used save for when the PnP spell it is being used to "emulate" is called for.

Could you clarify this? I do have a sorcerer who I took two "placeholder" spells with to represent the Cantrips of Prestidigitation and Mage Hand. It seems a better way of making sure that the spellslot actually can't be used for anything else. That, and if another party suspects the sorcerer/bard is re-designating the slots on the fly, they can always decline the RP since it's PnP.

You've done it right. The "placeholders" as you call them are used to "emulate" the PnP spell you're wishing to use. Adding it to your bio just lets people know that you didn't just decide that the spell you're saying is such-and-such PnP spell, but is actually something that you've already planned out beforehand.

Policing PNP spells will open a big can of worms. I think, if we're going to, it needs to be discussed by the DM team behind the curtain before any decision is made.

Is it okay to mimic a minor Wish to revive someone when using a Raise Dead scroll and discarding a diamond?

Even limited wish has an experience cost.

My opinion is that any use of the Limited Wish, Wish or Miracle spells requires DM oversight. They are far too powerful and potentially game-breaking to set a precedent of having them allowed at will. (Plus, you'd have to pay the XP cost which you wouldn't be able to do without a DM)

Limited Wish, Wish, Oracle and True Resuerrection all require DM oversight.

Alright, I was just curious since figured it'd make a neater way of reviving people, so I suppose I'll have to save that for when a DM shows up next time a friend runs afoul.

I just got the unique spell ranged or self ones as placeholders for pnp spells, which kinda hampers a sorc given that you can't really ever use them unless it's in an RP setting where everyone agrees to them being used, but for RP flavor it's worth loosing.

I also PMed the list of the pnp spells and their placeholders to a DM back when I made my Sorc spellblade, not sure if they actually got stored somewhere or not, but it's nice since it gives some validity to them actually being picked beforehand and not just thought up on the spot, hidden under the false pretense that I HAD a placeholder for that level.

Though I have to admit, putting it in the BIO for all to see is a quite smart move as well.

Gravemaskin wrote:

Though I have to admit, putting it in the BIO for all to see is a quite smart move as well.

That works, but there's also the fact that sometimes you may not want everyone to know what spells your sorc has access to, right on the spot OoCly. At least not before you actually use them.

I'm more fond of the PMing DM's sort of thing, but I don't think they keep a list of this sort of thing.

My opinion is that PnP spells should always only be a flavor thing anyway. Cantrips and simple spells for show/utility. As such, tight (self-)regulation becomes quite unnecessary. If you want to levitate your magic staff when you need to scratch your ear, stopping to calculate your available cantrips seems contrary to the sense of immersion you're after. Because you shouldn't be using imaginary spells to gain an advantage over other players or do something significant in the first place, the question needn't even arise. But, this is more of an etiquette question, so the topic might be better discussed in General if it needs discussing. The suggestion of regulating PnP spell availability was recently shot down in Things To Change, anyway.

As usual +1 for Iron. If you are using it in RP for a effect I say go nuts. I wouldn't even ask for the old rule "ask everyone involved if the PnP spell is okay". It's not affecting anyone and adding flavor to the RP

And that's one man's opinion

Well, on some level that works, and on another it doesn't. If you want to RP flying your hat around with Prestidigitation, I really don't see going through the bother of asking everyone in a crowded room if that's okay with them. But if you're using Mage Hand to pull a seat out from under someone or something crucial in RP, you should definitely still ask, because it's affecting someone else.

Might be just me, but I wouldn't do the latter at all.

Mage Hand can only move up to 5 lb anyways, and a chair being sat on... chair alone... would be way more than that!

<.<

I think you still get my point, though. Little things are fine not to ask permission for, except when they involve someone else. Then it's just courtesy to ask, otherwise you're assuming permission. You don't have to ask yourself for permission to cantrip your own whatever.

What was the ruling then?

On what?

Basically, if you want to use PnP spells as a innate caster, take one of the custom spells from the list or represent your PnP spell using a Bioware spell and put in your Bio that X spell = X PnP spell.

That's not a ruling. There is no ruling on this, and as Silent said, it would require DM discussion. But yes, that is what you should do if you wanted to stick as close as possible to PnP rules. I personally won't ask you to do that when it comes to Cantrips or low level flavor spells, and that's what it ultimately boils down to: the approval of those whose approval you need to use PnP spells. As long as they're subject to inter-player agreement, I don't see how they even could be policed.

I didn't say it was the ruling, i just said that's the basics of what you should do.

666WaysToHell wrote:

I didn't say it was the ruling, i just said that's the basics of what you should do.

'Should do' sounds like a ruling. But you are a player and can't make rules - What's the Official DM Word on this?

Last time I asked a DM, you need to have placeholder spells for the pnp spells you want to use (and if they are spells with an actual IG use then you can't use them that way. Example: You grab mass charm as a placeholder for the Sympathy spell. This means that you're not allowed to actually cast and use mass charm as if it was mass charm, but only as if it was the Sympathy spell.

Now that we can grab unique spell (self) or unique spell (ranged) however, you probably won't need to grab actual spells as placeholders for the pnp ones.

Note that I also got told if you DON'T stick to the whole not using it thing and a DM catches you hurling mass charms around and basically being sneaky and gaining yourself a "free" pnp spell, it's very likely you'll not be allowed to use any of them in an event or such.

Beyond that, I have no idea what the ruling is, but this is what I was told last time I asked. I suggest you also write down a list of your pnp spells and which placeholder you took for which spell. That way if you want to use any of them in an event or somesuch, you can easily PM it to a DM and ask for permission to use one of them in the event. Or just PM it to a DM in general and ask them to stick it somewhere on the DM part of the forums so the other DMs have access to it or can see it.

I'm not a fan of the whole putting it in your bio thing, for a number of reasons I won't go into here.

Individual DMs may have individual policies, but if it's not posted in R&L it's not a rule. If you don't trust your own common sense, you probably shouldn't use PnP spells in the first place. (But yes, what Gravemaskin says about high level spells makes sense. It just doesn't make much sense to pick such spells in the first place because they're not part of the game and don't have any more legitimacy in player-to-player interaction than your own make-believe spell.)

Also, stop asking for clarifications on everything. That only limits your own freedom, and my freedom in the process. The area of DM control has grown constantly over the last eight years because players insist on asking questions and the answers are then codified into law. We need to struggle against that mechanism, players and DMs alike. It's nothing but a drain on resources., something that happens quite on its own if we're not aware.

But you got your answer, Svensk:

Silent2001 wrote:

Policing PNP spells will open a big can of worms. I think, if we're going to, it needs to be discussed by the DM team behind the curtain before any decision is made.

Why post in the public Lore forum, if you're not interested in public discussion? If you've got a question you'll only accept DM answers for, PM them. Posting here equals an invitation for open dialogue.

pnp spells as a sorcerer.

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