AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Teach a Man to Fish topic (Build topic):

It should also be noted that Spell Resistance from the spell and from items also does not stack.

I've been toying with making a kind of guardian of Brogendenstein idea, and after looking at the class changes, I was debating something like a 7 Fighter/18 Dwarven Defender/5 Knight Commander. The idea being the first guy on the line, the last to leave it or fall holding it, inspiring to allies, and able to pull the enemies off weaker or wounded allies (using the KC taunt) and take the punishment on himself while they recover.

And was curious if something like that would be playable really.

I figure to get some advantage out of the KC and it's charisma based stuff, you'd at least need stats along:

Str 13
Dex 13
Int 12
Con 18
Wis 8
Cha 12

I'd put the first 4 points into con so you can get epic damage resistance, the rest into str.

First 5 levels would be fighter, getting weapon focus and specialization,
Next 5 or so would be knight champion,
Next 18 would be DwD
Last 2 would be fighter again, getting weapon specialization and epic prowess last.
(or something roughly like that)

So basically grabbing blind fighting, weapon focus, weapon specification, improved crit, knock down, toughness, skill focus - discipline, epic weapon focus, epic damage resistance x3, epic weapon focus, epic weapon specialization, armor skin, and epic prowess along the way.

While the AB would be low, as would damage. However you'd be a sack of hit points, with some buffs, some team damage resistance (versus slashing at least, depending on aura) 21 DR yourself, and some debuffs.

Unfortunately I don't know the server too well yet, as my highest level guy is 16, and I have absolutely no knowledge of the knight commander class at all. I dunno if that'd be something you'd get to 30 and would wind up useless and regret playing, so any feedback would be appreciated.

I'm going out on a limb soon to request a platinum coin race for the first time but I want the build to be sweet action first.

Rogue 13/Shadowdancer 7/Divine Champion of ??? 10
??? (Duergar base race)

Str 10
Dex 26 (18 base, 7 levels, 1 feat)
Con 16 (14 base)
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 4 (8 base)

Unbuffed AC: 26
Unbuffed AB: 30

Skills: Disable Trap 10, Discipline 32, Hide 33, Move Silently 33, Open Lock 10, Search 14, Set Trap 10, Spellcraft 13, Spot 33, Tumble 30, Use Magic Device 25

Feats: Ambidexterity, Armor Skin, Dodge, Epic Dodge, Epic Prowess, ESF: Hide, ESF: Spot, EWF: Kukri, Great Dexterity 1, Hide in Plain Sight, Improved Critical: Kukri, Improved Evasion, Improved TWF, Knockdown, Mobility, Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Kukri, Weapon Proficiency (Exotic)

/consults the oracles

You'd be better off doing ???

...kidding. 16 Rogue/6 SD/8 DC does the same as that build, but with a 2d6 superior sneak attack and more skill points in exchange for one less save overall. 6 SD or 7 SD makes little important difference, since you're being lame and taking under 10 levels anyway. And for the love of all that is holy, take Blind-Fight. Give up exotic weapons if you must.

As for apoc40's query, you're really going to be hurting for damage there. KC is a fine class even if a couple of its abilities need some buffing (I might be a bit biased), but neither it or Dwarven Defender do much in the ways of increasing your damage. I suppose you could mix them, but you need far more Strength. Decrease your Charisma if you must, you can still get all the KC perks at 8 Charisma with a lot of buffing.

Could I, say, toss Epic Prowess for Blind Fight?

So I'm not thinking I'm crazy - how many points in UMD/Search/Disable Device/Open Lock/Set Trap/Spellcraft do I actually need? I keep seeing you guys talking about gear making up for blah blah blah but I don't know that shit. Is it ranks in tumble/Spellcraft that give you save bonuses or is it the final bonus after modifiers? I'm just a simple Wookiee from Kashyyyk. Your ways confuse and alarm me.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

since you're being lame

No I think you will find it is you are lame

If you're really married to those silly kukris, then yeah, you could exchange Epic Prowess for Blind-Fight too. The latter is essential, the former is not.

I'd rather not throw out exact skill amounts for all of those, but you don't need more than 25 UMD max. Any Spellcraft is optional, but good to have. You could get away with 1 Open Lock if you really want, and 0 Search. You'll need a bit more for Disable Trap if you want to recover epic traps, and at least 20 Set Trap to actually place the things, though you could get away with a bit less if you shift your entire gearset over. I'd rather not for Set Trap, though, since changing over your entire equipment while potentially in battle isn't always feasible.

Only base ranks in Tumble count. The final bonus after modifiers applies to everything else. That includes UMD, so you'd need 28 UMD with that Charisma there.

I was doing research and it looked like you had mentioned only needing 13 ranks in spellcraft with a +2 int modifier to get +3 saves vs spells. So tumble needs ranks for AC, but spellcraft doesn't?

Yeah, that's right. Only base ranks count for Tumble, but everything, including bonuses from INT, count for Spellcraft. You do need at least 1 rank in Spellcraft for it to work, though, since it's a trained skill.

Just a warning that if you invest in spellcraft, it can be cursed into negative levels and you will lose saves vs spells. At least that is why my spell craft is always over 19.

Also I'd go 13 Rogue 13 SD 4 Divine Champion but that is because I have a hard-on for the increased SD abilities due to the role-play. You could get away with 11 Rogue 13 SD 6 Divine Champion to.

Hugely not a fan of wasting feats on dual-wielding. . .which inevitably leads me to believe that the the items that maybe items granting two-weapon fighting should be removed.

Get yer grubby hands offa mah lawn build!

10/10/10 is also totally valid, getting more AB, feats, and saves. Effectively, you're the most versatile bastard on the battlefield and can take the role of almost any type if need be, only that of course you won't be dishing out damage toe-to-toe like a WM, and you won't be saving like a Paladin, and you won't be sneaking like a proper Rogue. But it's still very wonderful and has practically an unlimited freedom of gear.

Not sure what the goobers and their hard-ons for SD over 10 are on about, though. Care to elaborate?

I should say the increased amount of uses for the SD abilities and the epic shade lord feat. That DC 36 1d4 Drain attack I'd imagine would be fairly useful.

Epic Shade lord is a bit of a PvP nightmare, but don't count on it to be a flanking buddy for dungeon soloing. It's about as tanky as wet tissue.

If you'd made a real SD and gone to 20 levels you wouldn't have that problem brosef.

Last edited by NAUX on Fri, Jan 25 2013, 22:00 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I have already asked two people (one of which was a DM) this question and both answers contradict each other and NWN wiki is not clear enough for me to leave the matter, so I am giving it one last shot.

I am using Epic Gargoyle as my primary form and I would like clarification on the damage mitigation that comes with it. I am assuming the following is true:

20/- Slashing (Damage Resistance), 20/- Piercing (Damage Resistance), 20/- Bludgeoning (Damage Resistance), 25/+10 (Damage Reduction)

I would like to know if the Epic Damage Reduction 3 feat which provides /9 Damage Reduction stacks with the Gargoyle 25/+10 DR or if the two sources are used at different times?

Epic Damage Reduction stacks with:

Damage Resistance (5/- slashing, 10/- piercing, etc)

Epic Damage Reduction does not stack with:

Damage Reduction (10/+1 DR damage soak, etc)

Thanks sune, and sorry for doubt. From experience, if I was to tailor my RP around being a damage soak, would you recommend taking EDR 3 to provide a motive for being tougher overall even if it has no mechanical effect but as reference to reinforce RP?

NAUX wrote:

Thanks sune, and sorry for doubt. From experience, if I was to tailor my RP around being a damage soak, would you recommend taking EDR 3 to provide a motive for being tougher overall even if it has no mechanical effect but as reference to reinforce RP?

think it would make more sense to rp gaining a resistance to a specific element

Think it would be mechanically sound to take the EDR feats because without going into specifics quite a few creatures will blow through +10 Reduction.

Chris, could you maybe provide a little more insight without being too specific, if a mob blows through the +10 DR, surely the /9 wont even be taken into account since the 25/+10 is used first and overrides the /9?

Do you think leaving cha at it's naturally dwarfey goodness of 6 would be too much to overcome?

And if it's just not viable, that's fine, I'm willing to entertain other concepts that follow that defender train of thought, and I really liked the taunt skill the KC gets.

You need 8 CHA to benefit full from all the KC abilities, fully buffed with +12 CHA from spells and items will result in your character having 20 CHA, giving you 5 modifier points which alongside 5 levels of KC provides all the goodness. The lower your CHA, the less you get from the class.

NAUX wrote:

Chris, could you maybe provide a little more insight without being too specific, if a mob blows through the +10 DR, surely the /9 wont even be taken into account since the 25/+10 is used first and overrides the /9?

When I mean blow through 25/+10 I mean that quite a few monsters, and I can't tell you which ones, have better than +10 enhancement or ab boni on their weapons. The nine damage reduction from Epic damage reduction can't be pierced by enhancement/ab boni. If the goal is to tank in Gargoyle form then the 9 from Epic Damage Reduction is worth it without a doubt, because that 9 reduction also applies in all your other forms, whereas most elemental resistances can be attained through item merging.

Thanks Chris, I knew it was worth putting the question out there, this is exactly the answer I was hoping for!

Does the bonus damage from Thundering Rage apply to ranged weapons?

The1Kobra wrote:

Does the bonus damage from Thundering Rage apply to ranged weapons?

Asked and answered on page 88 of this thread.

It's applied in the same manner as Divine Might damage is. It will apply as other damage, so even works when switching weapons.

can you weapon focus unarmed to get Divine Champion?

Last edited by Naivatkal on Mon, Jan 28 2013, 3:23 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Are there any viable BG/Cleric builds? Do the classes even go together in any feasible form?

Being completely unsure, I came up with this:

15 (18) STR, 8 DEX, 12 CON, 14 (18) WIS, 14 INT, 14 CHA
Cleric 1-10, BG 1-10, BG 11-16, Cleric 11-13, Bard 1 (13 Cleric/16 BG/1 Bard)
Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus, Extend Spell, Maximize Spell, Improved Crit, Divine Shield, Blind Fight
Epic Weapon Focus, Armor Skin (BG bonus), ??? (general feat), Epic Fiend, Epic Fort, Epic Prowess
Discipline 33(37), Heal 33(37), Hide 5(4), Perform 1(3), Spellcraft 28(30), Tumble 30(29), UMD 30(32), remaining skillpoints 2

AB: 23 base + 4 STR base + 6 STR mod + 4 weapon + 3 WF/EWF + 1 Prowess = 41 + 1 Bless + 1 Aid + 4 Divine Favor (BG version) + 1 Prayer + 2 Divine Power + 2 Battletide = 52

Did I miss anything? Does anything not make sense? BGs are still weird builds to me, and to try and concept it with Cleric makes my head hurt lol

What is this?

Quote:

Cleric 1-10, BG 1-10, BG 11-16, Cleric 11-13, Bard 1

Oh, the order of levels. 10 cleric then 10 BG pre-epic, then 11-16 BG, Cleric 11-13, then the Bard level last. I added the actual spread to my post (13 Cleric/16 BG/1 Bard)

Cerpin Taxt wrote:

can you weapon focus unarmed to get Divine Champion?

Yes. You can even Weapon Focus in ranged weapons, too.

Clerics in general benefit highly from more heavy investment in levels of that class, depending on now you work it you could be shooting yourself in the foot by adding BG in almost any quantity of levels I think. This is because to take full advantage of the saves from charisma modifier (dark blessing) you need the BG levels to be equal to whatever your modifier reaches, though I'm positive you know that already. You gain no feat advantages with its pre-epic levels and non-epic class levels, unlike the use of fighter and/or DC. Well, other than the automatic gain of feats, featured by the class.

Before I give anymore suggestions or advice, I'll just point out that if you are adamant to be a BG then it may be a waste of time to continue reading, other than to get a bit more knowledge possibly from what I have to say, unless you are willing to take on other possible build that will be suggested below.

At one time, builds such as 26/3/1 cleric/BG/tumble class and other similar ones were very much effective and viable builds to make, but now for the obvious reasons that it doesn't work, they no longer are because of the nerfs. Or maybe to say not as effective as they were pre-nerfing, is a better way of putting it.

And feats such as power attack and cleave are taking the place of potential other vital feats, none come to mind at the moment but I'm just putting the possibility out there. Even epic prowess can be missed on most clerics in favour of another feat. (I highly suggest reading to the end if you have gotten this far into my post already)

The epic fiends for the BG admittedly are nice to have, but your cleric buffers will make you weep and probably you'll then kick yourself for the sheer annoyance of it all. The BG specific buffers are nice, but last considerably less time than most other builds with self buffering capabilities, due to the lack of being able to take more than 20 levels in a prestige class with a 30 cap.

If you want a cleric bad enough and you would like it to actually be effective, whether it has to cater to the needs of PvP or PvM I'd suggest investing more heavily in the class itself. Clerics can be relatively fun, but it's not much fun having your buffers run out before you can even rest again while levelling your character, let alone it happening when you are maxed out.

Some worthy suggestions IMO, dependant on your needs and intentions:

24/4/2 cleric/fighter/tumble another variation would be to lose one class level in the tumble and add it to cleric, this is nice for having a slightly more comfortable run at the Illithids, for example. Four attacks per round provided you get all fighter levels in pre-epic.

28/2 cleric/tumble again, alternatively lose one tumble class level and put it toward cleric, slightly longer spell durations with that and you'll be over the moon at how long your battletides last before having to recast as well as some other AB/dmg enhancing buffers!

You'll want a bare minimum of 20 wisdom at the end of your build to make it as effective as possible and get as much as you can out of it. I'd suggest getting the 20 atleast so you can get epic spells such as EMD and Greater Ruin, to me they are to two essentials when I make a cleric for the most part. If you don't like summons and prefer to do the work without its help then you can drop that in favour of a preferred feat, you could still go for epic prowess as mentioned in your version for example.

But take note that depending on how you work it and the ending score for your wis you likely won't be able to access your epic spells until you are about 28th level, due to the requirement of 20 base stat in the main attribute for the chosen caster class taken, you'll be able to take the feats before the stat reaches 20 but casting any epic spell will result in no effect up until then.

Regarding the fighter variation, you'll want the 4 in pre-epic as I mentioned before, the four attacks a round are a nice advantage and make fighting a little less tedious and effectively allowing you to kill things quicker. But that said, only go this route if you can handle the annoyance of taking your fighter levels pre-epic, because you obviously have to stop levelling in Cleric for a whole four levels, so your durations don't increase for a while and you don't gain access to the highest tier of spells in your book until you get a few or more levels past epic, unfortunately.

If you choose that you don't want to go through that hassle then three attacks per round isn't too big a disadvantage, makes killing that much slower and fighting in general more tedious, but it's still quite a powerful build, as the majority of cleric builds are.

No matter which route you go, the usual suspects feat wise would be, though in no particular order:

WF, blind fight, divine might and shield, extend, maximise and imp crit.

If you go the fighter route then depending on what feats you do and don't decide to choose, you may have the added benefit of taking extra turning for a nice boost in div might/shield uses, you literally can never have too many of either on Amia. But that depends if you would be set on taking weapon specialisation, but just the pre-epic one alone is hardly worth it and maybe some other feats I am possibly forgetting. And besides, it's not like clerics are particularly lacking in the dmg department if well built.

In epic I'd recommend the following:

Armour Skin, Greater Ruin, EMD and EWF.

Not all of them are considered essential by everyone. Particularly EMD, if for example you have death domain or even repose, but there not a great deal of harm to have both EMD and one of those domains summons too, as you'll have something to fall back on should you need to if one summon dies. You'll also very likely on the bonus cleric feat level be forced to take one or two greater wisdoms, so consider this carefully when planning what you want your wis to end on and be sure to experiment on what levels you should take when to take full of advantage of feats and when they become available.

I also realise that I earlier said about dropping power attack and cleave which isn't as sound advice as I thought as I was forgetting that they are vital for gaining the divine feats. (I think both are required atleast, a little rusty at the moment!)

Hope this help, Naiv. And if it doesn't, don't tell me because I like helping people. It if I don't tirnout to be helpful then it turns me into an emo who cries for days on end and colour my skin darker than coal, so be considerate of this if it hasn't helped for any reason.

Woah, that was a mouthful, but yeah, he's totally right. Blackguard as it is now has no place on a cleric build and cleric has no place on a blackguard build.

Haha, lots of reading Anubis. I read a portion, skimmed the rest on the cleric stuff. Clerics are fun, yep, and really anything with that few of cleric levels seems gimped, to me. I already have a couple clerics, my caster Sharessin and my awesomesauce Lolthite meleer, so I know how they run.

Bini wrote:

Woah, that was a mouthful, but yeah, he's totally right. Blackguard as it is now has no place on a cleric build and cleric has no place on a blackguard build.

That's what I was thinking. There is some synergy, but you're essentially a short-term weapon of destruction.

Haha, yeah, sorry for the size of it. Seems lately I've gotten into the habit of making long replies to a lot of things. And it's ironic because I hate reading even a small amount, and often dodge long posts such as my last reply. But what can I do? xD

And even though it's likely you know most of what I posted already atleast it has the possibility of helping others considering a cleric for the first time or just not that experienced with them or building in general.

Yup yup, which is what the thread is for

I should also probably credit Opustus for the information I gave in that post, because if he didn't guide me when I came for advice to make the first real cleric I had planned as all the ones I made prior to that were fails in general build wise then I probably wouldn't have had all that advice to pass on myself!

(I more than once made clerics who lacked extend and maximise and both of the divine feats and if that ain't bad enough I went less than 20 levels in cleric with one and never took tumble with a few either. Outrageous, I know! But I was a noob at building for a while until I started frequenting is thread and it's previous ones too.)

Other than that, I fully appreciate and accept any recognition and credit for putting the effort into my post should anyone want to show any. :lol:

Anubis wrote:

[...]No matter which route you go, the usual suspects feat wise would be, though in no particular order:

WF, blind fight, divine might and shield, extend, maximise and imp crit.

If you go the fighter route then depending on what feats you do and don't decide to choose, you may have the added benefit of taking extra turning for a nice boost in div might/shield uses, you literally can never have too many of either on Amia. But that depends if you would be set on taking weapon specialisation, but just the pre-epic one alone is hardly worth it and maybe some other feats I am possibly forgetting. And besides, it's not like clerics are particularly lacking in the dmg department if well built.[...]

I also realise that I earlier said about dropping power attack and cleave which isn't as sound advice as I thought as I was forgetting that they are vital for gaining the divine feats. (I think both are required atleast, a little rusty at the moment!)[...]

You can also build a wholly viable Cleric with CHA 8. Just screw that Divine crap and go buff; it's manlier and you won't have to bother with micromanagement, which is a real pain in the arse especially in PvP. But of course if your concept requires CHA, it's not bad. I can't say which one is superior, as both have their distinct charms, though to admit that I have to put aside my personal predilection for the STR (it's just that much easier to play properly).

The point I actually disagree with, however, is Extra Turning. It's just completely reduntant in PvP, and I think that for a feat to be worthwhile, it has to be either an asset for both aspects of NWN combat or mandatory to one. Anyway, I don't think you should run out of Turns too often as you only ever use the Divine Might for regular creeps, and you're able to clear one or two spawns with a single dose depending on where you hunt. Playing a Cleric, resting is a thing you do a lot no matter what. But you may be silly and build for PvM, although I'll never get the point of that since there are so many better games than NWN for "grinding".

For a solid melee cleric, I'd definitely take the EWS route. That is, Cleric24/Fighter5/Tumble1. Cleric24 is for immunity vs Greater Dispel, which is a bitch when fighting things like the Sahuagin. The extra feat pales in comparison to a fourth attack by default, so should you choose a Cleric build spiced with Fighter, don't even consider taking the Fighter at epic. Also, you will need those feats pre-epic if you're going the CHA route as Divine Might and Shield are a heavy investment for a Cleric. Also about the EMD thingy: I actually never took it on my clerics because I simply thought that in PvP summons don't do a whole lot and in PvM the Cleric's self-sustain is so impressive that you really don't need the feat to survive in any of the areas you would go on your own. Elsewhere, you ought to get by with the help of your team. Of course, if you can't be arsed with all the finetuning of gear (which I think is one of the great pleasures of Amia and NWN in general) you can take the EMD to make your life easier.

Lastly, Cleave is not a pre-requisite for Divine Shield or Might, so you might as well drop that if you're not going BG for which it is a pre-requisite. The BG is quite solid as well, though I'd probably do it Cleric24/BG4/Rogue2 myself. The pre-epic feat list is quite straightforward: WF, PA, Extend, Maximise, WS, Blindfight, Divine Shield, Divine Might, KD, Improved Critical.

I want a mage hunter.

Hlp!

Edit - who is secretively a diviner sage sorta thing!

Edit 2 - and the offspring of a super strong human!

Edit 3 - who can shoot fireballs out of his palms!

Huge saves, non-buff-reliant, Improved Evasion, massive damage. Now, go to sleep.

With love,
Mum

1. It's 'help' not 'hlp'

2. Maybe try a high SR monk of some sort. Though not the most effective in some ways, they have their downfalls as all builds do. Well except my build, it's flawless, divine even, like the mythal. >.>

3. I'm more of a Mage builder than a Mage breaker, though rusty at this point if anything, other than that yo Momma's suggestion be good if you can work it (like a lapdancer).

Your build is squishy.

There isn't much in the way of a purely anti-mage build, unless you play a monk, in which case you can't go very wrong as their whole kit is catered towards killing and surviving mages. Anything with evasion, high saves, and a reasonable amount of hitdice will do really. Oh wait, Opustus said that, yeah you'll want that sort of stuff and maybe a means of getting close too, such as monk speed, HIPS, or a bow over melee weapons.

Trying to figure out the details of a Wizard/Monk build, wavering between Wiz 23/Monk 6/Ranger 1 and Wiz 26/Monk 3/Ranger 1. I don't have experience with epic levels to know what's necessary as far as AB, AC, SR, Spell save DCs, etc....

Already started the char, but got to a point where I don't know what to do next, so haven't played for a while. Currently Wiz 14/Monk 1 with the following feats:
Blind Fight
Extend Spell
Empower Spell
Maximize Spell
SF/GSF: Evocation
SF/GSF: Enchantment
WF: Kama

Have 1 Wiz feat and 1 general pre-epic feat left and then epic feats. Final INT will be 26.

Where should I go from here?

...Huh. Alright, so what kind of wizard/monk do you want? It looks like you want a spellsword build to me, but for that you only want 20 or so int max (unbuffed) and the rest should go to dex for weapon finesse (or str I suppose, I dunno). Your casting can't be too great because you need a decent investment in facebeating, you see. On the other hand, if you just want to focus on casting, suck up the loss, don't bother with any more monk levels than necessary and the build from there is fairly simple - wizards are pretty hard to stuff up.

Very_Svensk wrote:

I want a mage hunter.

16 Rogue 3 Bard 11 Arcane Archer
13 SD 8 Bard 9 Arcane Archer
10 SD 9 Bard 11 Arcane Archer
16 Paladin 10 SD 4 Rogue

And hope to buggery your not facing a spotter wizard.

Keep going! I'm really just looking for inspiration, the build i'll write up on my excel sheet later.

Monks are cool, but once that mage pops his acid sheet and you go all Fist's of fury on him - You're dead. Not to mention the sick ac most mages have and monks can't hit for shit.

It's a cool concept to be able to dart in and out of shadows, filling that renegade wizard up with arrows. But it sounds veeery squishy...

10 Rogue / 10 Shadowdancer / 10 Fighter
21 Paladin / 5 Harper Scout / 4 Fighter
15 Cleric / 4 Bard / 11 Arcane Archer
6 Monk / 18 Assassin / 4 Fighter [Drow] //If not drow race you can take 6 lvls of Fighter\\

Most builds of here depend on how you are planning to attack a buffed mage

Very_Svensk wrote:

I want a mage hunter.

Say what? A real Mage needs not the burden of AC.

That said, you're going to have the same problem even with high AB characters Vs the highest AC a Mage can achieve, often true strike is the best way to be hitting them at a rate you find more adequate and comforting to yourself, but it's hardly ideal with its short duration and the slight delay you have before even being able to take your first swing.

And on top of that, A real Meleer needs not the burden of using True Strike!

Ech, I'd just bury Monk because an elemental shield will hurt you more than you the hazard wirry. Also, I'd just rule out anything that relies on casting (except for a pure wizard or sorcerer, they do rather nicely versus other casters). I remember back in the day there was a duo of Shadowdancers who practically obliterated everything. Then Uce made them a trio with his Bard20/SD10 (you can't dispel dat song, bru) and they became invincible. The core of the trio was that they could not be harmed by dispel, and that their gear wasn't reliant on tonnes of gadgets and buffs. Quite simply, Rogue10/CoT10/SD10 was the one who gobbled up all the mages. You need to dish out enough damage to bite through their Premonition and Acid Cheat. Naturally, an AA can "counter" most mages, but still they can't make up for their imminent lack of saves with their massive damage output. Or, yes they can, actually.

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