AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

After a comment I made earlier i am now curious as to a more in depth answer. Where does a sorcerer get his/her spells? I thought that a sorcerer was a like a person with a photo graphic memory for spells, meaning that they see someone cast a spell they are powerful enough to cast and they can instantly mimic it. Downside was that they could only remember so many spells and writing them down did help them recall old spells.

Sune says that it comes from their bloodline which though i am sure is correct doesn't really explain it to me. So I would appreciate if someone could explain a sorcerer's spell origin.

Thanks

It is a natural ability, instead of learning it from a book they just wake up one day and know how to use a specific spell

Suney is (obviously, and as usual) right in saying that the power comes from a sorcerer's bloodline. Somewhere in a sorcerer's ancestry, some sort of magical creature got its blood mingled somehow into humanity, and the descendants of that mingling are often sorcerers. A sorcerer powers her magic by calling on the power inherent in that blood. The PHB speculates specifically that the magical creatures involved are typically dragons, but other sources expand those to include fey, celestials and fiends, etc.

They draw their magic from their heritage. What that heritage is is anyone's guess.

Dark Immolation made this thread to discuss that sort of thing a bit more in depth.

Lizzie wrote:

Suney is (obviously, and as usual) right

I feel a new signature coming on.

As mentioned on the topic Dust linked, the spells a sorcerer manifests can depend on the heritage of the sorcerer. For instance, a fey-blooded sorcerer may end up with spells related to compulsion or enchantment. A demon-blooded sorcerer may end up with spells related to chaotic destruction, particularly of the evocation school. It's really up to the player's imagination on how far they want to take this, mind.

This all makes perfect sense, but explain something to me. In the trilogy Return of the Archwizards the main elf, whose name escapes me, is looked down on because he casts spells the lazy way. He apparently needed no study, he could just copy the spell. He also copies a drying spell of melegaunt, remembered that one, who was amazed and also jealous. This is why I thought of sorcerers as having spell-graphic memories. Anyway discuss and help me understand.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Lizzie wrote:

Suney is (obviously, and as usual) right

I feel a new signature coming on.

Oh geez, that's right, make Sune's head even larger.

treant13 wrote:

This all makes perfect sense, but explain something to me. In the trilogy Return of the Archwizards the main elf, whose name escapes me, is looked down on because he casts spells the lazy way. He apparently needed no study, he could just copy the spell. He also copies a drying spell of melegaunt, remembered that one, who was amazed and also jealous. This is why I thought of sorcerers as having spell-graphic memories. Anyway discuss and help me understand.

Maybe that's just how his particular bloodline worked? I've not read those books, but I tend to caution against interpreting anything in any work of fiction as being canonical to lore. Authors don't think in terms of "what would make an awesome rule / campaign setting / magic system / whatever," they only think of "what would make an awesome story." Trying to reconcile the non-mechanics of a work of fiction against the mechanics of a sourcebook or rulebook will always be futile.

I've often wondered if the power of spellcasting comes from the arcanist themselves or if it comes from their manipulation of the power of the Weave.

THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT KEEP ME UP AT NIGHT.

Okay Lizzie I think you are right and I will avoid fiction as DND fact. Thanks for the knowledge.

CouncilofAutumn wrote:

I've often wondered if the power of spellcasting comes from the arcanist themselves or if it comes from their manipulation of the power of the Weave.

THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT KEEP ME UP AT NIGHT.

Has to be the Weave. If it came from them, it'd be psionics.

:mrgreen:

Stop saying arcanist OOCly folks, it is an IC-made-up-Netherese-Forgotten-Realms word.

arcanist

I don't know about Lizzie's evaulation of novels. In terms of WotC policy, they absolutely are canon. She's right that authors rarely think in terms of setting consistency or even know much about the setting (apart from a select few who you can figure out just by reading Candlekeep). Nonetheless, as ill-advised as they may be, the things that appear in novels are facts of the world. They add to the diversity of the setting and show that rules are generalizations that don't cover every case. I would say a novel example shows something to be possible, but weighs much less than a game book entry if they are in irreconcilable conflict. (Exceptions exist, of course, and you must evaluate the specific content and the authors' track record.) They open a door for deviant interpretations, though any that go specifically against lore rules should be discussed with the DMs. Our game is ultimately a work of fiction too, and the generalizations of rules are subservient to a great story.

But I don't think this is the kind of thing, like Lizzie said. The thing that enables sorcerers to be sorcerers is their magical bloodline. (I am of the opinion that magical mutations and other anomalies can also cause it.) I assume the thing that unlocks sorcerous potential also has some effect on how it manifests, but there's no mechanical law at work. The power doesn't directly come from their bloodline, it just enables them to be sorcerers. There's no explicit definition of how sorcerers learn and cast their spells. The general assumption is that they don't study like wizards, but nothing about them prevents the idea that they can learn spells they observe up to a cap.

I would say the rule/lorebooks say nothing definitive on this subject, and it's up to you. If you want to learn spells, you can. If you want to be a passive conduit for uncontrollable forces, that's fine too. If you want spells to be triggered by familiar scents or tastes or follow an elemental theme, that seems cool. If on the other hand they're a more rational and formal affair for you, that's possible as well. The rules simply say you learn a limited number of spells at level-up, you don't need a spellbook and you can't learn from one, and that you cast your spells spontaneously. This is made possible by a physiological anomaly, strictly a supernatural bloodline but IMO also other magical phenomena. Apart from that, how you acquire and cast spells is your fluff.

Tangent/Rant: The elf's name is Galaeron Nihmedu, and is one of the worst Marty Stu's in FR short of Elminster. He's whiny, shows zero character development, and is an absolutely -terrible- example of both an elf and a sorcerer. For all that's sacred, avoid him as a reference for elves and sorcerers. -However-, his corruption at the hands of Prince Melegaunt and the temporary insanity he goes through is an awesome interpretation of the -2 Wisdom hit one gets for picking up the Shadow Weave without Shar's blessings. Good material for Shadow Weave casters to reference...but again, not elf or sorcerer behavior!

Here's what the player's handbook 3.5 says on Sorcerer spells and origins
It's taken from pages 51 and 53.
Link

Also including the "Magic in Society" section from the Forgotten Realms campaign setting book.
Taken from pages 92 and 93 (My pdf of the book is rather pixilated so the quality on this one isn't the best, you probably have to download it and zoom more in than 100% to be able to read it properly)

Link

I went over both when I created my Mystran sorcerer, hopefully someone else will find it useful as well.

It's interesting that the PHB doesn't actually confirm the common dragon ancestor claim. You had underscored the words, but the whole paragraph is phrased as conjecture. I'm pretty sure the 3.0 version of the PHB or some other book is more explicit? Or am I wrong? Either way, that's a welcome change back to the more ambiguous and vague style of earlier material.

That said, I would be careful in taking those generic class descriptions too seriously. They tend to just communicate the theme those particular designers had in mind. It talks about raw energies and willpower, but technically the spells are still the formulaic, pre-existant units with their necessary somatic, verbal and material components. It says sorcerors don't undergo years of study and thus lack the arcane knowledge of wizards, but Spellcraft is still a class skill and there are canon NPC sorcerers studying in Blackstaff tower, for example.

I would take it as inspiration and as an idea of what, at least, is surely possible - whatever the spectrum of alternatives it doesn't cover may be.

Indeed. It's not confirmed, which is why I marked it. It's only hinted at, and written that SOME claim it, but that it's not easy to confirm. This is their sneaky way of opening up the whole bloodline suggestion, but not actually writing it down as cannon lore imho. Since it's suggested, I hint at the same with my Mystran Sorcerer by having most of his spells air or water aligned hinting at some sort of ice para-elemental or air/water elemental origin behind his magic.

edit:

The planar handbook also writes about Sorcerers:

3.5 Planar Handbook p. 35 wrote:

Though many claim a sorcerer's power derives from draconic heritage, a few sorcerers believe that their arcane prowess comes from an even purer source - the planes themselves. It isn't uncommon to see sorcerers travelling the multiverse in search of support for this belief.

Thus once again, hinting at the possability of another source of powers for sorcerers, this one not trough heritage. But again it's not written with certainty, opening up the possability for people to make their own choice as to where their sorcerer's power might originate.

I don't disagree with you here, Iron. I wasn't trying to say that fiction sources should be ignored, only that they'll rarely be grounded in anything like a system of game rules. They're just stuff some writer made up, which is not less valid, but is certainly less playtested and balanced., and it's futile to look to game mechanics to explain what we find there.

Lizzie wrote:

I don't disagree with you here, Iron. I wasn't trying to say that fiction sources should be ignored, only that they'll rarely be grounded in anything like a system of game rules. They're just stuff some writer made up, which is not less valid, but is certainly less playtested and balanced., and it's futile to look to game mechanics to explain what we find there.

Yeah, I agree.

Bini wrote:

Stop saying arcanist OOCly folks, it is an IC-made-up-Netherese-Forgotten-Realms word.

I dont get the joke so I'll respond at face: it has meaning outside of IC considerations, check Complete Arcane. Useful word to have.

By the same logic we'd also be calling people archmages and referring to realm's days as cycles OOCly.

Bini wrote:

By the same logic we'd also be calling people archmages and referring to realm's days as cycles OOCly.

So you are advocating for using none of the IC terminology I see. Stop using wizard/cleric/etc as well, then.
Besides, arcanist is a real life word.

Stop trolling, you're doing poorly.

It isn't a real life word honey.

No, that's not "the same logic" at all. Archmage has an established meaning OOC which holds to certain language conventions, in terms of structure. Arcanist does too but all that means is "individual of the arcane". You're talking about an established usage IC which is a cultural thing but the meaning presented by the structure has nothing to do with Netheril. Additionally the word was basically formally adopted as OOC (and maybe also IC) jargon, see Complete Arcane.

Use of cycle for day in OOC contexts is pointlessly oblique but this doesnt apply to arcanist which has a separate meaning and unspoken OOC connotation which isnt properly replicated by words like spellcaster. I havent even gotten started on how register is a relevant factor both in IC and OOC use. It's valid and you're simply wrong. I'd go into further detail beyond the above but I'm on my phone. And the absurdity of trying to basically copyright a word to one of its very specific meanings can only lead me to assume trolling anyway.

This is all correct, but you're forgetting that Ioulaum wrote the Complete Arcane with a deliberate bias in favor of humankind's contribution to magic.

Are you blind? It was an illithid conspiracy ALL ALONG.

Bini wrote:

It isn't a real life word honey.

Correct. And you were telling people to stop using an IC word OOC. So, see my previous post.

The troll is weak with you, young one.

Pathfinder has some awesome rules to bridge the gap, completely addressing the multiple bloodlines saucerors can get their fabulousness from. Abyssal, arcane, draconic, etc.

Bini wrote:

By the same logic we'd also be calling people archmages and referring to realm's days as cycles OOCly.

I am an archmage in real life behold my power

I am speaking to you now in the voice of Morgan Freeman.

Titty sprinkles.

For the record: Arcanist is a word.

Also, moving this to Lore as that is where this conversation has headed.

ITT: I don't even, wat?

Um... I think my post already speaks largely for what I'd have to say. Yes, sorcerers ability to manipulate the Weave is generally believed to come from a bloodline heritage to a creature. Another general belief is that many come draconic bloodlines, as they are a magical creature known to breed with humanoids. However, there is nothing to say it is the only heritage. In fact, there is much to suggest otherwise, given the incredible diversity of spells sorcerers might manifest versus the comparatively limited scope of draconic sorcerous abilities that might be passed down.

Yes, if one subscribes to Pathfinder's outlook on sorcerers (as I often do), they can arise from phenomenon other than genetics, too. How these circumstances come about is largely left up to flavor. The main issue is that they still act mechanically as any other sorcerer would. That leaves a huge amount of room to RP how one sorcerer's spells might work, given that sorcerous casting, theory, and practice are often unique to the PC. If Wizardry is "science" and all the many approaches one might take towards it, then Sorcery could be said to be "art" and the innumerable paths that extend from it.

As far as how they actually cast... well my own theory will be best described when my PC finishes his next book. I'll settle to say that as long as the mechanics are upheld, there is little to say of what couldn't be a option, save things that should require explicit DM approval(mostly things that would involve the direct intervention of a deity, similar powers or well-known NPC, the creation of a homebrew cultures/creatures, etc.)

And lastly ...Whether Arcanist is or is not a word in the English language is highly irrelevant one way or another, given that it is used IC regardless. Not sure what value a debate about the coinage of words in a fictional language(Common) has to this conversation, but I'm going to guess very little, if any. There was already a thread about Common vs English, if one wishes to dig it up and discuss that topic there.

I must throw in with Council and DI and elevate Pathfinder's view of sorceror bloodlines as superior. I'm such a Pathfinder junkie, though, that I have come to consider much of their setting and interpretations as superior...even if the soap opera enthusiast inside of me likes FR's pantheon of deities better.

Pathfinder uses Elemental (Gensai) Abyssal (Tiefling), Draconic (RDD), and Celestial (Aasimar) so it already uses some basic possible Sorceror Bloodlines

I would be very careful to note that just because you're an elemental/celestial/fiendish sorcerer, it doesn't mean you have to be a genasi/aasimar/tiefling.

Though it is very likely that if you are a genasi for example, and you choose to advance as a sorcerer, your bloodline would be elemental. Given that it is most likely your most dominant heritage and least removed ancestor, connecting with it probably comes a bit easier. The same goes for any of the planetouched subtypes.

Sorcerer Spells and their origins

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