13 Shadowlord does the trick really. Those 7 other levels are very happily put elsewhere. Though if your RP is to be the shadowiest shadowdancer, whatever do it.

With 20 Shadowdancer you severely restrict what you can pair the class with and the max benefits, while maximizing the summon, just exponentially deteriorate elsewhere.

_________________

The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

20 SD is terrible but cool and gimmicky. gimmicks are fun. From: A guy who played 20 SD.

_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Everyone knows cool is better than powerful.

_________________
Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object
True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder

I asked in the spell resistance thread if SR gained from gear can be reduced via Mords? I suspect it was ignored as it may have been seen as a questio more fitting for this thread, hence asking in both places. It did have some relevance to a point I was making, in that thread however.

_________________
Ael'thil Rilyn'tlithar
Previously known as: Anubis

Yes, it does. Or so this link claims! To my knowledge only monk SR cannot be lowered by Mords.

Thanks Nihilus!

_________________
Ael'thil Rilyn'tlithar
Previously known as: Anubis

Hey all.

I asked earlier about various BG/KC/Rogue/Fighter builds.

Quick question, how does a 8 Bard pre epic, 16 BG, 3 KC and one bard in epic level stand up?

_________________
Unuldor d'Vilrath - Herald of Discipline
Nadrin Vlos - sadistic torturer, physician and
Brognar Steerinsport - crazy dueregar monk
Saul Rephaim - Sane

Not very good.

9 Monk 5 KC 16 Blackguard is probably the best version I can think of.

If Monk doesn't fit what your looking for

9 Rogue 5 KC 16 BG is the next best version I can think of.

_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

Generally when incorporating bard into any build, one should either have 1, 2, or 20+ levels of bard. Using it as filler is pretty meh.

I like Mosh's monk suggestion though. The only difficulty will be some tricky abiility balancing.

_________________
feel the blood gushing from your anusfeel the blood gushing from your anus

It's a pain. It is workable but don't look for base 26 in your primary stat I guess.

_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

8, 10 or 11 bard tends to work pretty well in those wonky builds, like when you use it alone to meet BG prereqs. 10 bard is 4'th level spells, Imp Invis is always handy. 8 and 11 bard are Bard Song thresholds, 2 AB, dmg and AC for a turn is a pretty neat buff. Not to mention Stone Song.

_________________
Mark it zero!

I'd have to agree with Bini. If its not for a Tumble/UMD dump, then it's all or nothing or go home boi (I don't mean all or nothing as in no multi classing, I mean going all the way to Lasting Inspiration. +respect for 30 Bards, though). For me personally the length of a none epic Bard song just isn't worth it, moreso in PvM and even in PvP you're bound to get into a bout where it lasts a while, I've witnessed loads of PvP matches and they can go on for a while at times, not having to worry about throwing your bard song up quite frequently is an amazing thing and no doubt an advantage (less flats-footedness etc..) not to mention having all the perks that come with heavy investment in bard. Sure, Imp invis as a casting can be a very nice advantage, but if you aren't using 0 asf stuff then you can wave bye-bye to it if you need to quickly throw it on when getting attacked, but can't because of your armour.

Stone song is nice, admittedly.

Just my opinion and I know others can differ, so in the end just go with what you prefer and think you'll enjoy most. But all in all I think if you must have bard you'll get more fun/joy out of a minimum of 20 levels and for me after having a taste of Lasting Inspiration I simply can't settle for not having it if I go above 2 levels, with one exception, though, that being an AA with SD.

_________________
Ael'thil Rilyn'tlithar
Previously known as: Anubis

I have to agree that it works pretty well. Castable sustain is always nicer than having a plethora items to swap and use and occupy your quickbar. Perhaps the biggest weakness in that build is that you'd rather have a proper bard any time, and that if there's another bard in the crew, your usefulness is nullified by an x amount of bard levels.

_________________

UCE THIS, YOU COW.

I more need a quick opinion. I am making your standard 22 fighter/7 WM/1 Tumble. Which weapon is more useful, given that I am often alone? Scythe or Battleaxe?

_________________


Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

Your standard 22/7/1 is actually 20/7/3. Trust me it works better and you'll never forgive yourself if you take bard as your tumble dump. With rogue your getting Evasion and an extra d6 sneak. And for Soloing you always want a shield.

_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

Curiosity mostly, but why are you going only the 7WM as opposed to epic WM? Nothing wrong with it or anything and I suspect it's for the bonus feats. And yeah, with no shield how quick you can die can be majorly annoying, it's caused me to want to start pulling out my own hair at times in PvM if everything targets you and not a tank in the party if you happen to have one, and quite obviously more annoying in solo if you plan to do that, like said above.

_________________
Ael'thil Rilyn'tlithar
Previously known as: Anubis

Bonus feats, ding ding.

Is it possible to "WM" in more than one weapon?

_________________


Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

In short, yes.

As the weapon of choice is chosen from a list, it is technically a bonus feat selected from a list. As such, it is available for selection (again) as a bonus feat at epic levels if the weapon focus prerequisite is met. Furthermore, a different bonus feat can be substituted for weapon of choice at weapon master level 1, if the prerequisites for that feat are met (which, among other things, implies being an epic character).

12 Fighter/16 WM/2 Rogue only receives two fewer feats than 20 Fighter/7 WM/3 Rogue, and you already have exactly as many feats as you need with the former build on a human base anyway.

_________________

"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

See, that's the build I have with Katina, my Jarl-Warden, and for some reason she does dick all damage and can't solo anything, even though she's got a wonderforged longsword. Her best crit is only in the 120s.

_________________


Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

Silly question, but... how would the 20 fighter build be better in that department? You can get weapon spec and epic weapon spec with 12 fighter easily. 12 Fighter/16 WM/2 Rogue is a better build, overall.

You're supposed to take Epic Weapon Specialisation on your 12th and final fighter level. Seemingly small things like Flame Weapon scrolls also make a big difference when you're running 3x criticals.

_________________

"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

Thoughts on this.

Drow, 5 Fighter, 7 WM, 8 Assassin.

For the rest of Epic should I take 1 Fighter (Epic weapon Spec) and the rest WM? Or all Assassin levels for the awesome Death Attack.

_________________
Unuldor d'Vilrath - Herald of Discipline
Nadrin Vlos - sadistic torturer, physician and
Brognar Steerinsport - crazy dueregar monk
Saul Rephaim - Sane

1 fighter for epic spec, and 7 assassin levels would be what I would do. You won't have the last two assassin abilities, but your death attack will be 8d6, which is pretty good. Typically, I don't think sneak attacks and crits are very compatible together, though, since they don't stack.

_________________
Remember when I knew a boxer, baby

I don't think it's necessarily that they don't stack, but they don't multiply by your weapons x2 or x3 on a crit. Unlike all other damage types (that I can think of, elemental, natural weapon damage, wep spec feats, bard song bonus, rage bonus, weapons additional damage properties etc..) things do, each of them are to my knowledge rolled as normal and doubled or tripled, dependant on the multiplier of the weapon (e.g 1d10 dmg, rolls 5, it happens to be on a crit with a x2. Multiplier and the 5 becomes 10 dependant on DR's, too, obviously), so with this all your damage is multiplied by your weapon, then adds sneak damage on to it with whatever it may happen to roll as normal, but doesn't get multiplied, but does still offer an advantage in extra damage having sneaks/death attacks along with the rest.

_________________
Ael'thil Rilyn'tlithar
Previously known as: Anubis

They stack, the sneak attack damage just doesn't get multiplied.

I'm not a fan of these builds myself, though my recommendation would be to get as many assassin levels as possible, even at the cost of 6'th and 7'th WM levels providing you focus on scimitar, rapier or kukri. Fighter8/Assassin17/WM5 should work.

_________________
Mark it zero!

Drow don't have 30 levels to work with.

_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

Oh right >.< He did say drow, did he? Assassin15 then.

Fighter 7, Assassin 8, WM 5 pre epic, leaves you with a total of 4 epic feats plus the assassin bonus feat, which has a limited choice but i guess Crippling Strike with a dice or two of Sneak Attack on an item should be useful.

_________________
Mark it zero!

This is exactly what I meant.

_________________
Remember when I knew a boxer, baby

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but don't you need at least 10 levels of a primary class to make it valid? It seems like you've got 25 PRC levels here....not 20....

_________________
Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell
Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess

Nope, not necessarily. You can't go beyond 10 levels of a prestige pre-epic but you can in the end take as many as 25 levels in one of those classes. It would be something like 5ranger/10sd/5assassin pre epic to make it be able to progress that much with any prestige class.

Edit - my wording is confusing, you can take UP TO 25 levels with the use of 2 prestiges, with the exception of the ones that are limited to what level you can go up to, KC for example.

_________________
Ael'thil Rilyn'tlithar
Previously known as: Anubis

Thanks Anubis, never attempted it, but this makes sense and opens up a world of new possibilities!

_________________
Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell
Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess

Ohai streamofasound.

_________________
feel the blood gushing from your anusfeel the blood gushing from your anus

I thought on it a little more, turns out you can infact get up to 25 levels with any two prestige classes added together, unless the two PrC's are KC and MS in the same build. Don't know how I missed it earlier, probably tired or something.

KC/MS get 5 max levels each, so you'd go say, 5Rogue/5KC/20(Insert PrC here).

_________________
Ael'thil Rilyn'tlithar
Previously known as: Anubis

Ladies and gentlemen, enjoy one of my more brutal creations: The Munchkindin. I finally decided to release this one after seeing teams of baddies gang-jump people, so I'm giving the goodies something that can curbstomp all of them. At once.

Merry Christmas (Screenshot!).

(By the way: The gear he's wearing in that screenshot is all standard stuff in the module. Most of it can be bought from vendors!)

Build Sheet for Paladin/Champion of Torm/Rogue, level 30
(15/12/3)

Stat priority:
Charisma
Wisdom
Strength
Constitution
Dexterity
Intelligence

Race: Human


Level 1: Paladin
Starting Stats:
Str: 14
Dex: 8
Con: 12
Wis: 14
Int: 12
Cha: 16
Skills: Concentration +4
Discipline +4
Taunt +4
Floating Skill Points: 4
Feats: Weapon Proficiency: Exotic
Weapon Focus: Dwarven Waraxe


Level 2: Paladin
Skills: Taunt +1
Discipline +1
Concentration +1
Floating Skill Points: 5

Level 3: Paladin
Skills: Taunt +1
Discipline +1
Concentration +1
Floating Skill Points: 6
Feats: Power Attack

Level 4: Paladin
Stats: Charisma +1
Skills: Taunt +1
Discipline +1
Concentration +1
Floating Skill Points: 7

Level 5: Paladin
Skills: Taunt +1
Discipline +1
Concentration +1
Floating Skill Points: 8

Level 6: Paladin
Skills: Taunt +1
Discipline +1
Concentration +1
Floating Skill Points: 9
Feats: Divine Shield

Level 7: Paladin
Skills: Taunt +1
Discipline +1
Concentration +1
Floating Skill Points: 10

Level 8: Paladin
Stats: Charisma +1
Skills: Taunt +1
Discipline +1
Concentration +1
Floating Skill Points: 11

Level 9: Paladin
Skills: Taunt +1
Discipline +1
Concentration +1
Floating Skill Points: 12
Feats: Divine Might

Level 10: Paladin
Skills: Taunt +1
Discipline +1
Concentration +1
Floating Skill Points: 13

Level 11: Paladin
Skills: Taunt +1
Discipline +1
Concentration +1
Floating Skill Points: 14

Level 12: Paladin
Stats: Charisma +1
Skills: Taunt +1
Discipline +1
Concentration +1
Floating Skill Points: 15
Feats: Extra Turning

Level 13: Paladin
Skills: Taunt +1
Discipline +1
Concentration +1
Floating Skill Points: 16
Feats:

Level 14: Paladin
Skills: Taunt +1
Discipline +1
Concentration +1
Floating Skill Points: 17
Feats:

Level 15: Divine Champion
Skills: Discipline +1
Floating Skill Points: 20
Feats: Extra Smiting


Level 16: Divine Champion
Stats: Charisma +1
Skills: Discipline +1
Floating Skill Points: 23
Feats: Improved Critical: Dwarven Waraxe

Level 17: Divine Champion
Skills: Discipline +1
Floating Skill Points: 26

Level 18: Divine Champion
Skills: Discipline +1
Floating Skill Points: 29
Feats: Toughness
Knockdown

Level 19: Divine Champion
Skills: Discipline +1
Floating Skill Points: 32

Level 20: Divine Champion
Stats: Charisma +1
Skills: Discipline +1
Floating Skill Points: 35
Feats: Blind-Fight

Level 21: Divine Champion
Skills: Discipline +1
Floating Skill Points: 38
Feats: Epic Weapon Focus: Dwarven Waraxe

Level 22: Divine Champion
Skills: Discipline +1
Floating Skill Points: 41
Feats: Epic Prowess

Level 23: Divine Champion
Skills: Discipline +1
Floating Skill Points: 44

Level 24: Divine Champion
Stats: Charisma +1
Skills: Discipline +1
Floating Skill Points: 47
Feats: Great Charisma I
Armor Skin

Level 25: Divine Champion
Skills: Discipline +1
Floating Skill Points: 50

Level 26: Divine Champion
Skills: Discipline +1
Floating Skill Points: 53

Level 27: Rogue
Skills: Tumble +30
Use Magic Device +30
Floating Skill Points: 3
Feats: Great Charisma II

Level 28: Rogue
Stats: Charisma +1
Skills: None
Floating Skill Points: 13

Level 29: Rogue
Skills: None
Floating Skill Points: 23

Level 30: Paladin
Skills: Taunt +16 (Max)
Discipline +4 (Max)
Concentration +7
Floating Skill Points: 0
Feats: Great Charisma III

_________________
~Diana de Priondragas - Enigmatic druid, Arbiter, Counselor, Bear.
~Corinn Aldaine - Just a girl with a big heart... who can turn you into a newt.
~Vigdis Haldorsdottr - Walk softly and carry a big axe.

30 UMD with 14 CHA mod, what? I hope you meant 11~12 UMD... Or maybe just 1. I'd rather stack something like Listen, instead.

_________________
Sion of Nimlith
Shadow Disciple

Good point. I'll tweak it. That's sort of a kneejerk thing with me anyways.

_________________
~Diana de Priondragas - Enigmatic druid, Arbiter, Counselor, Bear.
~Corinn Aldaine - Just a girl with a big heart... who can turn you into a newt.
~Vigdis Haldorsdottr - Walk softly and carry a big axe.

Why does it have 3 levels of Rogue, Precious?

_________________
Profiles: DakoDako & ElWacko

Characters: Currently trying my best to stick to Beridoc Brushgale

I have no idea, I built it forever ago. I remember there was some reason it used three, but I can't be bothered to remember or check.

_________________
~Diana de Priondragas - Enigmatic druid, Arbiter, Counselor, Bear.
~Corinn Aldaine - Just a girl with a big heart... who can turn you into a newt.
~Vigdis Haldorsdottr - Walk softly and carry a big axe.

Tumble+UMD and uncanny dodge to preserve all that dodge AC from divine shield.

Oh right, that.

_________________
~Diana de Priondragas - Enigmatic druid, Arbiter, Counselor, Bear.
~Corinn Aldaine - Just a girl with a big heart... who can turn you into a newt.
~Vigdis Haldorsdottr - Walk softly and carry a big axe.

Buh? http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Uncanny_dodge (see: notes)

_________________
@Thanatopsis#6293

Oh. Sneak attack die are cool?

Damnit, how did I know someone would point this out before I double-checked this.

Yes, it retains its (small) dexterity bonus to dodge when flatfooted. It also gets a pantsload of extra skill points which are used to fill out its otherwise very slim pool from the rogue levels and a very small benefit in 2d6 sneak attack damage, which frankly it won't often use. I'm pretty sure I tried everything from 1-3 rogue levels and this simply worked the best for making the build more mechanically powerful (aside from the loss of a few HP).

_________________
~Diana de Priondragas - Enigmatic druid, Arbiter, Counselor, Bear.
~Corinn Aldaine - Just a girl with a big heart... who can turn you into a newt.
~Vigdis Haldorsdottr - Walk softly and carry a big axe.

It's kind of cool, but what does it look like without buffs? Dispel is going to rape it hard.

_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

ARGHH


It's not hertical for a paladin to have sneak attacks. It all depends on the paladin and the religion, the church, the geography etc. Can people on this forum PLEASE understand this.

_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856

30 Charisma is likely enough. 5 boots + 4 haste + 1 mage armour + 10 divine shield = 20 dodge AC. The extra points would sit well in Strength, surely.

Paladins are Lawful Good alignment.

_________________

On the topic of paladins and overpowered builds;

I personally prefer a Paladin24/5Cot/1Monk.
5 Cot gives you the +5AB/Damager from Divine wrath, instead of the +3ab/Damage.
24 Paladin nets you greater dispell immune - Which means you can solo almost all Major huntinggrounds; except the darkness whom will mord you.

5 Cot gives you 2 extra feats. 24 Paladin 1 extra feat. Thats 4 Base, +3 Extra = 7 in total.

This guy can become a very good smiter. He may not be doing insane 500Smite crits, but he will down most players in matter of seconds. He is fully Dodge capped, too, and his spells doesn't just last 1.5 Minutes, But instead 2.4 Minutes + Extended

_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856