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Very_Svensk wrote:

alamut wrote:

Sneak attack provided by rogue lvls is so heretic for a paladin. ]

ARGHH

It's not hertical for a paladin to have sneak attacks. It all depends on the paladin and the religion, the church, the geography etc. Can people on this forum PLEASE understand this.

It's not heretical, it's only frowned upon.

alamut wrote:

Paladins are Lawful Good alignment.

And rogues can be any.

Curse ye, paladins! *shakes fist* :evil:

Blackguards don't get so pimped on their own, that's so unfair.. And if that wasn't enough, "Hey, why don't we make a great item that makes sense as-is, for a change, but restrict it to good aligned only, and also call it Shield of The Triad?" *yawn*

But hey, ooh, someone got killed by bad guys, let's promote more paladinism! Evil is under-represented my friend, it's them that are being ganked. I went for a stroll once on the surface with a few drow, we were actually seeking meaningful RP interactions, not a fight, as it was an event for us. We finally stumble upon someone, and i get ready to roll out our prepared RP, except they say: "Look, a necromancer..." and set us hostile. Hours of preparation and designing the RP went down the drain, as we witness your precious surface transform into an abyssal plane. Dragons, monks and filthy halflings sprout from every hole in the ground, every tree stump, "Necromancer, where?", "Let's kill the necromancer, woo partay!

" they say, and we weep

, get Smite-Evil'ed and fall. I was the last drow standing, fighting for my life but... more like running and fending off the horde. I ran for 4 large areas, i was getting close to a safe haven, but alas - killing just one guy didn't make any difference, i ran out of healing and finally succumbed to my wounds. And right at that moment, as i draw my final breath, to add insult to injury...

Six paladins arrive at the scene, coming from the direction of Kohlingen, and they say:

"Where is the necromancer?" :shock:

On a brighter note, and on topic.

Out of curiosity i decided to measure your creation's worth Eurgiga. It's a lot of numbers on that damage sheet, they look impressive. I calculated that your paladin will deal 347 damage per round on average, and that's a lot indeed, even if only for 2 rounds at most. I use a formula that serves as an estimation tool, and the result is what i call - damage potential.

I guess you actually eased my worries on the paladins. I have a build on paper, that goes 690. :mrgreen:

It is uncouth to post a build in this thread without solicitation.

It is the wrong thread to be arguing about the validity of rogue and paladin levels together. :cry:

Bini wrote:

It is uncouth to post a build in this thread without solicitation.

Cry more.

Aeqvinox wrote:

Curse ye, paladins! *shakes fist* :evil:

Blackguards don't get so pimped on their own, that's so unfair.. And if that wasn't enough, "Hey, why don't we make a great item that makes sense as-is, for a change, but restrict it to good aligned only, and also call it Shield of The Triad?" *yawn*

But hey, ooh, someone got killed by bad guys, let's promote more paladinism! Evil is under-represented my friend, it's them that are being ganked. I went for a stroll once on the surface with a few drow, we were actually seeking meaningful RP interactions, not a fight, as it was an event for us. We finally stumble upon someone, and i get ready to roll out our prepared RP, except they say: "Look, a necromancer..." and set us hostile. Hours of preparation and designing the RP went down the drain, as we witness your precious surface transform into an abyssal plane. Dragons, monks and filthy halflings sprout from every hole in the ground, every tree stump, "Necromancer, where?", "Let's kill the necromancer, woo partay!

" they say, and we weep

, get Smite-Evil'ed and fall. I was the last drow standing, fighting for my life but... more like running and fending off the horde. I ran for 4 large areas, i was getting close to a safe haven, but alas - killing just one guy didn't make any difference, i ran out of healing and finally succumbed to my wounds. And right at that moment, as i draw my final breath, to add insult to injury...

Six paladins arrive at the scene, coming from the direction of Kohlingen, and they say:

"Where is the necromancer?" :shock:

On a brighter note, and on topic.

Out of curiosity i decided to measure your creation's worth Eurgiga. It's a lot of numbers on that damage sheet, they look impressive. I calculated that your paladin will deal 347 damage per round on average, and that's a lot indeed, even if only for 2 rounds at most. I use a formula that serves as an estimation tool, and the result is what i call - damage potential.

I guess you actually eased my worries on the paladins. I have a build on paper, that goes 690. :mrgreen:

Ahahahahha xD Hillarious!

Cerpin Taxt wrote:

alamut wrote:

Paladins are Lawful Good alignment.

And rogues can be any.

But when you get 15-23 lvls in paladin and 1-3 in rogue you're what ?

I'm not trying to justify Pally-poos with Rogue levels, but if utilising sneak attacks is heretical, what about tactics in battle, such as setting up ambushes in a large bouts against an enemy force? T me that's just as much a sneak/surprise attack and is giving the ones who planned it a big advantage, it's also not really fair and debatably not an honourable way to win, but "all is fair in love and war" conflicts with that. I do realise this is not the place to discuss that, so if you wish to provide me with something that clears it up my PM's box is open. I'm not trying to argue the situation or anything, I just think we have a different understanding on it and neither are necessarily wrong, I'm curious as to what people have to say if any one who wishes to give an answer as to what conclusion they have to it, is all.

Eurgiga, that looks a very nice and potent build and where I'm sure it would be entertaining to play, I personally think I'd prefer heavier investment in Pally. Spell durations etc are all very important to me, especially since PvP is rare for me to be apart of and just about all fighting I did in game was PvM. But that's mostly personal preference, as I like heavy investment in any class that has casting capabilities, bard being one of my few exceptions but usually in the event of using it for tumble/UMD.

And thank god I copied this post before submitting, I was randomly logged out and would have lost it! :lol:

Yeah can't consider a Paladin that doesn't get it's full spell-book. Even worse its 15 Paladin. . .that means it's short two second level spell slots.

It also has no extend spell.

It's also got that Cha modifier without Great Smites.

There are four ways Paladins work

Dev Crit
Hybrid -Fighter
Hybrid -Other (Such as Knight Commander)
Great Smite

This one is built like a Hybrid yet it has Great Smite feat and ability investment without actually taking Great Smite.

It's also completely gimped after 1 turn or a Greater Dispel.

Frankly divine champion has only redundant synergy with paladin unless it is a smiter. Without focusing on smites it is just pushing the statistics that have already met their ceiling into exorbitant values. Fighter has much more to offer the variety of paladin that particular build strives to be.

Key question - You don't actually need Mindblank as a sorcerer, Do you? You can either grab Protection from alignment (Circle 1 spell), or chug a potion. Right?

I'm trying to grab as many Abjurationspells on my sorcerer as possible without totally gimping him.

You'll get away With the other protection spells in most cases, I think. But there are monsters that are neutral too, so it'd take transmuting of the protection spells and multiple castings to ensure you aren't effected by any monster. It's more trouble than it's worth I think and you'd be better off going with mind blank or lesser, you'll save more spells that way, especially with the superior one.

True. But lesser mindblank is a 5:th level spell. And there's a myriad of other very good spells in that circle.

Bigby's interposing hand - cant touch me!
Energy buffer - Abjuration!
Firebrand - For all your aoe needs!
Greater shadow conjuration - Four spells in one!
Mestil's acid sheath - Die you nasty meleer's !
Lesser spell mantle - can be empowered to be nasty, too.

Yeah, in the end it's up to you. Just pick what you think will help you get the job done with whatever it is you intend to do.

An advantage of having lesser mind blank as a spell is you can cast it on others, for long dungeon crawls or in case allies get confused/stunned/(insert something bad). Still, for this, you could opt for clarity. Or the L8 mind blank if you REALLY want it.

The1Kobra wrote:

An advantage of having lesser mind blank as a spell is you can cast it on others, for long dungeon crawls or in case allies get confused/stunned/(insert something bad). Still, for this, you could opt for clarity. Or the L8 mind blank if you REALLY want it.

But doesn't Prot vs Align negate stun etc, too? I mean - It doesn't dispell it, but it prevents it.

If you only have PvE on, a low will save and go to the illithid lair, you're as good as dead. In short, no. There are things that fly right by it.

slkNihilus wrote:

If you only have PvE on, a low will save and go to the illithid lair, you're as good as dead. In short, no. There are things that fly right by it.

That's because the Brain devourers are True neutral. They count as animals or something. The umberhulks, on the other hand, are evil.

I specifically remember getting hit by a illithid ability. Though, now that I think about it, it might have been post a Greater Dispel? Not really sure.

Learn how to read, you goddamn backwater sorcerer. (Scrolls are a great way to fill out your laughable spell selection.)

slkNihilus wrote:

I specifically remember getting hit by a illithid ability. Though, now that I think about it, it might have been post a Greater Dispel? Not really sure.

Having less then 24 caster levels and getting hit by a greater dispell fucks you over, bigtime. This is why i detest people who play the 19Paladin/10COT, 1 monk builds. Because they can't survive for shit - ALl higher level monsters have greater dispell at their disposal.

Edit - I just got reminded that disco removed the language filter. I can write as many fucks and shits as i want! <3

Yep. This was on a build not "immune to greater dispel", which is why I mentioned that it was a possibility. Still, I'd not rely on PfE for that purpose myself. Lesser Mindblank is a much better option for a sorc and, as The1Kobra mentioned, it's helpful that you can also cast it on allies who need it as well.

Yeah and like mentioned its one of the few things that negates many effect like paralysis and the above examples, with few exceptions, like being feared for example, where you need the use of remove fear or Greater Restoration.

I think this game would be more fun if people's potions, magic items and scrolls were minimum caster level like in PnP. HO HO HO. Tastes bad and less filling!

Says the Sr monk!

Battle Shifter

1 Druid Toughness Altertness
2 Druid
3 Druid Expertise
4 Druid
5 Druid
6 Shifter1 Imp. Exp.
7 Shifter2
8 Shifter3
9 Shifter4 Blindfight
10 Shifter5
11 Shifter6
12 Shifter7 Imp Crit Unarmed
13 Shifter8
14 Shifter9
15 Shifter10 Skill Focus: Disc
16 KC1
17 KC2
18 KC3 Empower Spell
19 KC4
20 KC5
21 Shifter11 Undead Shape
22 Shifter12
23 Shifter13 Great Wis
24 Shifter14 Outsider Shape
25 Shifter15
26 Shifter16 Great Wis
27 Shifter17 Armor Skin
28 Shifter18
29 Shifter19 Construct
30 Shifter20 Great Wis

So my questions are these. Is Dragon shape a much better goal then Construct (I haven't used either since the upgrades)? If I do that I would lose Construct and Armor Skin obviously, but 30 wisdom is nice for DC. Also I will be focusing on Wis, Int, and Cha since my shapes will alter most of my physical stats. Not sure exactly what I will start with other than 18 Wis and 14/16 Int. Anyway what do we think?

Unless there's been any recent changes since before I stopped playing then Dragon is way more worth it than Construct. Though one of the construct forms have Mass Haste, which could be nice. But since you want a battle shifter, I'd recommend Dragon shape, personally.

My only worry from other posts is that Dragon is too large to be effective. Is that true?

alamut wrote:

Cerpin Taxt wrote:

alamut wrote:

Paladins are Lawful Good alignment.

And rogues can be any.

But when you get 15-23 lvls in paladin and 1-3 in rogue you're what ?

A paladin with utility. There is a way to not apply sneaks if your god is going to fall you though. Somehow from my experiences here ,I doubt they care. If they did, paladins would be felled for gang-smiting individual evil doers.

Quote:

Imbue Arrow
Cast the following arcane spells on basic arrows in your inventory, via the Imbue Arrow feat, to gain the specified bonus damage (Duration: 1 Hour per Arcane Archer level):

Ice Storm: Cold
Mestil’s Acid Breath: Acid
Fireball: Fire
Lightning Bolt: Lightning
Enervation: Negative
Sound Burst: Sonic

Do arcane archers need to know the spells to imbue their arrows or can they do so with scrolls?

I believe scrolls work? Don't quote me on that, though.

I know items work.

treant13 wrote:

My only worry from other posts is that Dragon is too large to be effective. Is that true?

You'll have trouble in the Illithids and Beholders, or most in door hunting areas for that matter because of their size. But places like the Abyss aren't too bad, except for certain raised parts of the tile set etc..

But if that's a deal breaker for you, the Undead and Outsider shapes should be nice for being offensive too, according to others who have told me about them with personal experience. Rakshasa has a few spells, Azer has Flame weapon and I think that other spell that works in a similar manner to combustion, also to my knowledge you can Transmute the Azers Flame wep because it's an actual spell use and not a scroll/item, which is handy for Fire Giants, resist the fire fully and have their weakness on your weapon and other party members' too.

And Slaad has its green spit of death which can deal nice damage and if you're hasted you're laughing.

You could still go with the construct and make use of it, I believe one has certain spell immunity and there's the mass haste like I mentioned, but you only get three shape uses for the form you have to take as a feat, so mass hasting then using a better shape isn't going to work for long.

Remember that the construct shapes actually got buffed quite a lot a while back.

No, construct is far more valuable than dragon shape. Dragon shape is something extra you take for prestige and to use as a panic button when you're facing multiple opponents in pvp with different mechanisms of damage-dealing or you're unsure how to counter them otherwise.

Very_Svensk wrote:

alamut wrote:

Sneak attack provided by rogue lvls is so heretic for a paladin. ]

ARGHH

It's not hertical for a paladin to have sneak attacks. It all depends on the paladin and the religion, the church, the geography etc. Can people on this forum PLEASE understand this.

Then again, I dout the sneak attack is the main reason why people chose a few levels or rogue in their builds

Okay then I think Construct it is. Other then that are the feats okay or is there some other must have?

Switch out your last wisdom feat for epic prowess or epic skill focus: taunt. While shifted you'll benefit from the most potent piece of wisdom gear you put on, the +7 from the owl's insight scroll, and the 1+1d4 from the owl's wisdom potion and because wisdom is such an easy statistic to max out, the +1 modifier that you miss out on is negligible.

ESF: Taunt because of Entreatment/KC? Or something completely different I am not seeing.

When you're a gargoyle with wyrmling shields, entreatment becomes a very useful thing in group pvm, whether a grind or perhaps even an event. Taunt itself is also handy as shifters tend to suffer from sub-par AB when using the combative forms.

You know if I take aasimar then I can get three extra epic feats. Would the best feats be ESF: Taunt, Epic Prowess, and Epic Armor?

You should totally make the build fit the subrace, not abuse a subrace to fit your build.

It makes me uncomfortable when people flip flop around with subraces, thus I'm inclined to agree with Mosh.

Your both right. It makes me feel like I'm cheating on my original idea. Question retracted

What choices would you take for the sixth(6) circle spells, as an abjuration sorcerer? Which ones do you prefer? Tips are welcome.

The ones i prefer;
Globe of invulnerability - Awesome Abjuration spell. Improved to turns/level if you got epic spell focus abj.
Isaac's greater missile storm - Awesome
Mass haste - AWesome (But i can probably settle with single haste)
Shades - Lots of spells in one spell. Good for sorcs
True seeing - Super cool, But it exist on a lot of items. And i am probably not going Divination.

Globe of Invulnerability (Or Shades, depending on your end game build), Mass Haste, Isaac's Greater Missile Storm.

Protection vs evil/good
Does it negate phantasmal killer and stun/daze

My own personal must haves for any Sorcerer I make (I prefer them to Wiz, but if it was the other way around I'd still pick the same ones) are always and I do mean always; Mass Haste and True seeing and the third will depend on the Sorc's alignment, concept and spell schools usually and I base the third off of that.

I can't be doing with short lasting True seeing from items, especially since all my Sorc's are geared around buffering the party and summoning. TS is far superior to see invisibility and will win my vote every time, the only thing that is immensely annoying about TS for me is the darkness bug that can occur if you enter Darkness and TS runs out. In all it's just more convenient to me, using an item to cast doesn't get any quicker with the use of haste unlike hasted casting.

IGMS is great but can very quickly eat up spells from its own level and the empowered + maximised slots and certain creatures are fully immune to that spell, I'm sure you know that though. I did use it on one or two of my casters, the most annoying thing was stocking up on the components for me especially to forget about them and suddenly run out when you need them most, despite buying so many they last quite a long time, so if you go for that've sure to keep an eye on the components but the spell usage came in at a very close second for inconvenience and annoyance.

Globe of Invulnerability I never take, ever. Spell mantles are always prioritised with me, even if it is the weakest one as it can be meta-magic'd and I always make sure I can take one of the three no matter how much I may want certain other spells in their places. But keeping that in mind it's upgrade to duration with the correct focuses is a very nice perk and the spell is much more worthwhile than before that.

Shades, never took it before but (I'm not sure if it's still the case) its highest summon upgrade is fairly powerful and is actually quite appealing to me despite never taking it before, because all my Sorc's take summons, every one of them, up to now.

So my suggestion would be to deffinitely take mass haste and true seeing and the order in priority to me for the others would be:

-Shades
-IGMS
-Globe of Invulnerability

This is what I'd personally do and by no means telling you it's the best option, just think on what you aim to do as said caster, weigh up which spells will and won't benefit you most, within reason.

Edit - in theory prot vs alignment should stop them if you have the protection up before they are used on you as for post-daze/stun it's never removed them in my experience.

Globe of Invulnerability is extremely nice if you have an Abjuration focus. Yes, in mage duels, you're probably going to using Spell Mantles more frequently.

I think its bigger strength, especially with an Abjuration focus, is PvE. However, I've seen duels go on until people ran out of dispels/mantles, and a Globe of Invulnerability is basically a shutdown.

Globe of invulnerability protects vs ice storm and such. But what if said ice storm ia empowered or maxed? Then the ice storm takes up a higher level.
Does the globe protect then?

Pretty sure that innate level is always used for spells.

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