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What flaws will I run into with a 17monk/10pm/3wizard?

str base 62ac 42ab....

Low saves and ab probably
You will never kill another player?

Every aspect of that build besides AC is a flaw; don't do it.

Charles1810 wrote:

What flaws will I run into with a 17monk/10pm/3wizard?

str base 62ac 42ab....

I'd imagine most (Possibly even all) Monks would be against Undead and things like that, those under the Long Death order come to mind (I think the long death can make for a very interesting concept, myself). I'm no expert, though and that is mostly just the impression I've been given, so take it with a pinch of salt.

Also, you'd probably be better off with a number of other Monk builds. Most any well built Monk can have nice AC, bearable AB thanks to the extra attacks a round + DEX or STR base, moreso with Kama wielders.

I had a Monk maybe 3 years ago, who was going to be 5 SD on top of Monk 25, focused in healing and hiding mostly, to observe a situation before getting involved. I didn't care for HIPS on him as his Monk speed would have been enough to corner sneak without too much trouble and I didn't mind too much not having HIPS. Got epic dodge and was Dex based for the better AB, I think I may have given him 14 Wis also.

There are far better builds than that, too, but that one gets Epic Dodge, but isn't the only one who can achieve it.

20/4/6 Monk/fighter/SD seems a good choice to me, but I've been told of 20/10 Monk/Rogue . Gets UMD, 5d6 sneaks (Helps a bit with both extra needed dmg and also +2 AB Vs successfully sneaked opponents) and 10th is usually for defensive roll to qualify for Epic Dodge. But like I said there are a number of builds you could make with Monk and a lot of them fit much better than PM (IMO).

But I'm not too experienced with Str built Monks, a Monk/Fighter/MaybeSomethingElse may be a good choice.

Anubis wrote:

Charles1810 wrote:

What flaws will I run into with a 17monk/10pm/3wizard?

str base 62ac 42ab....

I'd imagine most (Possibly even all) Monks would be against Undead and things like that, those under the Long Death order come to mind (I think the long death can make for a very interesting concept, myself). I'm no expert, though and that is mostly just the impression I've been given, so take it with a pinch of salt.

Also, you'd probably be better off with a number of other Monk builds. Most any well built Monk can have nice AC, bearable AB thanks to the extra attacks a round + DEX or STR base, moreso with Kama wielders.

I had a Monk maybe 3 years ago, who was going to be 5 SD on top of Monk 25, focused in healing and hiding mostly, to observe a situation before getting involved. I didn't care for HIPS on him as his Monk speed would have been enough to corner sneak without too much trouble and I didn't mind too much not having HIPS. Got epic dodge and was Dex based for the better AB, I think I may have given him 14 Wis also.

There are far better builds than that, too, but that one gets Epic Dodge, but isn't the only one who can achieve it.

20/4/6 Monk/fighter/SD seems a good choice to me, but I've been told of 20/10 Monk/Rogue . Gets UMD, 5d6 sneaks (Helps a bit with both extra needed dmg and also +2 AB Vs successfully sneaked opponents) and 10th is usually for defensive roll to qualify for Epic Dodge. But like I said there are a number of builds you could make with Monk and a lot of them fit much better than PM (IMO).
Yep would of been follower of velshroom, and just felt fitting for the rp...the build theory though looking rough...
But I'm not too experienced with Str built Monks, a Monk/Fighter/MaybeSomethingElse may be a good choice.

Charles1810 wrote:

Anubis wrote:

Charles1810 wrote:

What flaws will I run into with a 17monk/10pm/3wizard?

str base 62ac 42ab....

I'd imagine most (Possibly even all) Monks would be against Undead and things like that, those under the Long Death order come to mind (I think the long death can make for a very interesting concept, myself). I'm no expert, though and that is mostly just the impression I've been given, so take it with a pinch of salt.

I don't agree that all/most monks would have to be against undead. There are evil monk orders after all. Disciples of the White Rod in Calimport dedicated to Loviatar, for example. I don't know why this order sounds so phallic-y but... You figure that out.

I always think people should play whatever they want, so, it's not really up to me to tell you what is and is not a good character concept. But like Svensk said, 42 AB is painful! D: 42ish AB is fine in terms of hitting enemies but even then...

Yeah, I suspected there may be Monks not against Undead and the like, so that's why I said take it with a pinch of salt and that it was just an impreession I had been given numerous times, so it is good to clear that up some. Even still I wasn't saying there isn't some reason even if every Monk would be against undead, that events couldn't turn and he is lead to the PM path in some way or another.

Quote:

Yep would of been follower of velshroom, and just felt fitting for the rp...the build theory though looking rough...

I just barely noticed this, you had wrote it in to a quote of my post.

If you want to go PM for the build, it is more fitting for what you explain.

Can anybody enlighten me with regards of the items that a Master Scout can craft and their effectiveness. Do you have to put points in Set trap in order to utilize these items?

Don't know about other items, but the trap thing is basically using his crafting ability on a trap that you have in your inventory, and it adds cool stuff to it. No trap skills required for that ability, but you need skills to obtain and operate traps (Disable, Set maybe Craft too).

So guess what, i made a full circle and came back to FTR/BG/Rogue for that quarterstaff build >.> I was also considering FTR/Barb/Rogue but the low AC discourages me greatly, even though it would be a more dangerous build.

I settled on Tuigan because omg why are humans so awesome for builds? I'm going for Grumbar, sort of earthbender themed character (it has no DEX).

Anyway, just wanted to ask what do you think about a few things. First of all, i can get 45 AB, 58 AC fully buffed with regular gear (63 with Expertise), and 248 HP. Alternatively i can take the Dev Crit route and even raise STR by 2, so the AB would be 46 with a +4 weapon, but i'd miss out on a bunch of fun feats i'm considering, like Crippling Strike, Called Shot, Opportunist, SF:Spot, Epic Skill Focus: Taunt, and even Expertise (i could maybe ditch 1 or 2 Great Strength feats to take something...)

Thoughts?

Oh and one more thing, since i tend to get confused with skill rolls. I'm considering taking IKD along with IDisarm and Caled Shot, but i'd rather not take all these feats if they prove to be virtually useless against things with some discipline, with my 46 AB.

How is that roll working, is it: AB + d20 vs Discipline + d20?

I also heard a rumor that on critical hits, the DC gets doubled. Is that true?

Players Attack Roll

vs

d20 + Discipline + Modifiers

edit: Critical hit has no effect on DC.

IKD is definitely worth it, the others... it's debatable, but I'd suggest looking up other feats. Everything else, what Mosh said.

Called shot is really only useful for AAs, but only because they are ranged, thus cannot use IKD.

Disarm isn't very useful in my opinion, I'd rather have the opponent be knocked down, rather than have them just click their quickslot and re-equip their weapon. (disarm has been modified, and simply un-equips your weapon on a failed save)

IKD is superior.

wolfurt wrote:

Called shot is really only useful for AAs, but only because they are ranged, thus cannot use IKD.

Disarm isn't very useful in my opinion, I'd rather have the opponent be knocked down, rather than have them just click their quickslot and re-equip their weapon. (disarm has been modified, and simply un-equips your weapon on a failed save)

IKD is superior.

When a PC uses disarm on another pc, unless it was changed in the last month, it takes the weapon.
When a monster uses disarm it unequips the weapon.

Last edited by wolfurt on Sat, Mar 23 2013, 19:36 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Cerpin Taxt wrote:

wolfurt wrote:

Called shot is really only useful for AAs, but only because they are ranged, thus cannot use IKD.

Disarm isn't very useful in my opinion, I'd rather have the opponent be knocked down, rather than have them just click their quickslot and re-equip their weapon. (disarm has been modified, and simply un-equips your weapon on a failed save)

IKD is superior.

When a PC uses disarm on another pc, unless it was changed in the last month, it takes the weapon.
When a monster uses disarm it unequips the weapon.

I highly doubt that. People would whine if they could lose weapons in PVP, especially DC requested items, etc. That's why pickpocket is the way it is, too.

When Disarm is used on a PC, the target's weapon goes into the target's inventory. So it's still hella effective since you have to find your weapon and equip it.

Also to prevent loosing equipment if the server crashes/reset before you pick it up again.

Naivatkal wrote:

When Disarm is used on a PC, the target's weapon goes into the target's inventory. So it's still hella effective since you have to find your weapon and equip it.

Also to prevent loosing equipment if the server crashes/reset before you pick it up again.

Well that's good to know. Some people are smart enough to leave the first page of their inventory clear for this reason, though (and if they don't, they certainly will after learning the hard way). I still prefer having the opponent knocked down for 6 seconds, usually that's enough time to finish them off anyway.

Aeqvinox, if you have feats to burn, go for it. Just make sure you aren't missing out on something more important like Dev.

Naivatkal wrote:

When Disarm is used on a PC, the target's weapon goes into the target's inventory. So it's still hella effective since you have to find your weapon and equip it.

Also to prevent loosing equipment if the server crashes/reset before you pick it up again.

When was the last time you used disarm? I ask because on Geial I got into a fight with a monk who took my mace and hit me with it.

In some places where bosses/etc use disarm on you there is something set to force it into your inventory instead, I believe, at least.

Yall sillyums are missing the point! Improved Disarm is what you want. It can dramatically increase your attack bonus in many areas.

If you use Disarm in PvP, you better return the weapon to the owner.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

If you use Disarm in PvP, you better return the weapon to the owner.

What. I've always been told that Disarm doesn't take the weapon because of this very issue.

wolfurt wrote:

Aeqvinox, if you have feats to burn, go for it. Just make sure you aren't missing out on something more important like Dev.

Well that's the real question here. I've settled on FTR12/BG8/Rogue10 as the most efficient spread, and it -can- get Dev Crit, though that's 4 feats i'd be forced to drop in order to take it.

Current pre-epic feats: Power Attack, Cleave, WF, WS, Blind Fight, Dis, IDis, KD, IKD, DMight, DShield, Expertise, *.
(*Called Shot, SF:Spot -or- Nature Sense DC request)

Current epic feats: EWF, EWS, AS, EProwess, ESkF:Spot, CStrike, **.
(**Opportunist, Great Will, ESkF:Taunt)

So as you can see, every feat has its use and it would be a tough choice to drop 4 of them to get Dev Crit. I'd rather keep my IDis, IKD, CStrike, Expertise and other stuff... They all represent a very disciplined, versatile fighting style on the theme of bo jutsu. I'd basically be sacrificing a lot of fluff just to get that odd chance of scoring a debilitating blow... i'd wish there was a way to get it all, but alas...

What do you guys think?

GreatPigeon wrote:

Yall sillyums are missing the point! Improved Disarm is what you want. It can dramatically increase your attack bonus in many areas.

That's the whole point indeed. I want to make a build that makes the best use of Quarterstaff, and IDisarm is certainly a feat worth taking for a 2-hander.

I dont really see why 10 rogue myself.

So, daggers vs shortswords. Are there any other reasons than higher damage dice to prefer the latter over the former? I'm asking as I am trying to weigh style vs effectiveness on otherwise crossbow based assassin.

I want to say there are a lot more sneaky/assassin-y daggers and daggers in general in the module than shortswords. Other than that, I think the only real difference is damage. Both are light, both are one-handed, and rogue proficiency. Dagger is in the Tiny size category and Shortsword is Small, but I don't think you'll be trying to disarm with a crossbow assassin anyway.

The bigger the weapon you wield, the greater chance of disarming an opponent, yes? That could have been nifty on such a char, but probably not then.

GreatPigeon wrote:

I dont really see why 10 rogue myself.

For a total of 7d6 sneak attack (initially i wanted to go 13 rogue tbh), 250 skill points, Crippling Strike and Opportunist. It's there to stay for representative reasons, i refuse to treat the last semblance of lightweight and agility in the mix as a skill dump only.

The character is loosely based on Toph Bei Fong the earthbender, and this'll be her portrait. Tuigan, Grumbar, neutral evil. Rogue makes a lot of sense in this context, Toph was naughty and sneaky.

Naivatkal wrote:

DerkDerkistan wrote:

If you use Disarm in PvP, you better return the weapon to the owner.

What. I've always been told that Disarm doesn't take the weapon because of this very issue.

It does. I had a Wonderforged Longsword stolen from me in that manner before. It required a DM to retrieve it for me.

That's ... stupid

It's better than leaving the weapon on the ground unattended, to get eaten by a crash or reset. Changes in item ownership can be tracked as long as the item continues to exist. A DM will always be able to get the weapon back from another player; not necessarily so from a crash.

Well yeah, I just thought there was a way to return it to your inventory instead. Is that maybe what happens when NPCs do it? I dunno anymore D:

Pretty sure it is, yes. Or at least, that's how I remember it working when the fire giant king did it to me.

It is only unarmed disarms that cause the weapon to end up in the disarmers inventory.

Would be nice if it was all made kosher somehow, this disarm business.

In general, in a Barb build, would Armor Skin or Epic Damage Reduction be more useful? I was trying to go heavy into the EDR's, but there is only room for one... So I'm not sure which would be more useful. I'm still leaning towards EDR though. Thematically they are pretty close.

If you only have room for 1 I would go for armor skin. I would also be interested what you are going for instead of the other two EDR's...

I would also recommend not going for 21 constitution for just 1 EDR, thats silly.

How would you rate the usefulness of these feats?

1.Crippling Strike
2.Defensive Roll
3.Improved Evasion
4.Opportunist
5.Skill Mastery
6.Slippery Mind
7,Blinding Speed

I'm leaning toward 3. 4. 6. in that order.

Build will probably end up F10,MS 5, Ro15 so only get to pick two, can't see odd level of fighter to go 9/16/5.

GreatPigeon wrote:

If you only have room for 1 I would go for armor skin. I would also be interested what you are going for instead of the other two EDR's...

I would also recommend not going for 21 constitution for just 1 EDR, thats silly.

What he said, mhm.

I think it really depends on what kind of rogue it is. Improved Evasion is easily the most important for any rogue. Now, with the build you gave me, I'd set it up like this, in order of importance:

1. Improved Evasion
2. Defensive Roll
3. Skill Mastery
4. Crippling Strike
5. Slippery Mind
6. Opportunist
7. Blinding speed

Skill mastery is more functional on a master scout type character, who utilizes LOTS of traps. But Improved Evasion is basically a must.

With master scout saves, you may not need Slippery mind as much, and Crippling strike is a really nice way to deal with.. well, just about everyone (To varying degrees) when you're using melee. Most trappers, at least in my experience, tend to fight with ranged weapons.

Opportunist, Defensive Roll, and Blinding Speed are all kind of bad. However, you need Defensive roll and Improved Evasion for Epic dodge, which is arguably the best feat in the game.

Instead of the 10/5/15 spread, I would consider trying 6 Fighter/5 MS/ 19 Rogue instead. You can take two more of those neat rogue feats to better round yourself off, have better sneak attacks, and sacrifice only 2 bonus feats from fighter (For gaining two bonus rogue feats).

Why odd level of fighter?

8/17/5.

5 Master Scout 1 Fighter 4 Rogue in epic

For me, anyway:

1. Improved Evasion (clear top choice)
2. Slippery Mind (I dislike failing Will saves)
3. Crippling Strike (Would even put this #2, really. KD + Crippling Strike = Good stuff)
4. Defensive Roll (Would be #2 on an Epic Dodge build, but with the damage stuff puts out at high levels?)
5. Skill Mastery (This might be valuable in PvP against a trapper, but not really at any other time)
6. Opportunist (Attacks of Opportunity aren't really anything you get to control. Worthless feat to me)
7. Blinding Speed (Haste potions are easily found, and cheap. Buy wands of them, too)

As mentioned above, I am trying to make an assassin reasonably balanced between style, social skils and not sucking too much at combat. There are a few things written in stone: Must be human, must have minimum 10 in charisma, must invest reasonably in bluff and/or persuade.

That means I get dex to 16, int and str to 14, con to 12, and the rest to 10. Since i here want to go very much assassin instead of rogue, I believe epic dodge is pretty much ruled out, so I am quite tempted to spend two stat increases on int, or drop str to 12 to raise int to 15 and then only use on stat increase to further it to 16 and the rest in dex, netting 22 at level 28 if no great dex feats are taken.

As for level spread, I believe the standard assassin build is 4 rogue/6 ftr/ 10 Ass pre epic and then 1 ftr/ 9 Ass epic? And here is where my problem comes: I want as many rogue levels as possible, without gimping him too much when it comes to combat. So any ideas on that? I'm also quite unsure if I should take the dual wield feats, as I want him to be primarily focused on his crossbow, but due to the bugginess of ranged sneaks and in the spirit of being well prepared, he should be able to fight with daggers too. Perhaps teh ambi-dex gloves are enough?

Play around with 8/3/19 fighter/rog/assassin. This has EWS, Edodge, high sneak dice and plenty of room for two-weapon fighting if you want. If you don't need that many feats, you could try dropping 2 fighter and picking up two rogue, but I wouldn't recommend it. The AB is pretty low as it is.

7/3/10 pre-epic, 7+3 pre-epic feats
8/3/19 post-epic, 4+2 epic feats

How do you get e-dodge on that? Lots of dex feats post epic? My reason for wanting many rogue feats are skill points, as I want to max most of the standard rogue skills in addition to the social skills.

QPR wrote:

How do you get e-dodge on that? Lots of dex feats post epic? My reason for wanting many rogue feats are skill points, as I want to max most of the standard rogue skills in addition to the social skills.

If you can't get 18 starting dex, and pick up Gdex I, then you won't be able to fit Edodge. You're definitely trading combat survivability for social skills.

Yes, that is true. But I have found that you can survive combat without epic dodge as well, so i think it is worth it, especially since I want him to mostly be ranged.

QPR wrote:

Yes, that is true. But I have found that you can survive combat without epic dodge as well, so i think it is worth it, especially since I want him to mostly be ranged.

D: Nooo! Epic dodge is definitely worth it!

If anything might not be worth it, it's probably Persuade/Bluff. There are no hard core rules with Persuade/Bluff. No one has to acknowledge those rolls, nor can anyone make you roll them.

Persuade, a lot of people roll it as "I WIN!" button even though what they're saying is completely ridiculous (e.g., trying to "Persuade" someone into doing something obviously self-destructive). That's not really how Persuade works.

With Bluff, sometimes, it kind of serves a different purpose. While you would like to believe your fellow players are free of biases, people >.> well typically aren't. When you roll Bluff after you make a statement that requires Bluff, that's pretty much telling everyone in the area "HEY GUYS! HEY! I AM LYING OUT OF MY ARSE RIGHT NOW? HEY! DID YOU SEE THAT! HEY!!"

But those are my two cents.

That was a massive off topic rant...one of the worst I've seen!

QPR wrote:

As mentioned above, I am trying to make an assassin reasonably balanced between style, social skils and not sucking too much at combat. There are a few things written in stone: Must be human, must have minimum 10 in charisma, must invest reasonably in bluff and/or persuade.

QPR wrote:

How do you get e-dodge on that? Lots of dex feats post epic? My reason for wanting many rogue feats are skill points, as I want to max most of the standard rogue skills in addition to the social skills.

QPR wrote:

As mentioned above, I am trying to make an assassin reasonably balanced between style, social skils and not sucking too much at combat. There are a few things written in stone: Must be human, must have minimum 10 in charisma, must invest reasonably in bluff and/or persuade.

That means I get dex to 16, int and str to 14, con to 12, and the rest to 10. Since i here want to go very much assassin instead of rogue, I believe epic dodge is pretty much ruled out, so I am quite tempted to spend two stat increases on int, or drop str to 12 to raise int to 15 and then only use on stat increase to further it to 16 and the rest in dex, netting 22 at level 28 if no great dex feats are taken.

As for level spread, I believe the standard assassin build is 4 rogue/6 ftr/ 10 Ass pre epic and then 1 ftr/ 9 Ass epic? And here is where my problem comes: I want as many rogue levels as possible, without gimping him too much when it comes to combat. So any ideas on that? I'm also quite unsure if I should take the dual wield feats, as I want him to be primarily focused on his crossbow, but due to the bugginess of ranged sneaks and in the spirit of being well prepared, he should be able to fight with daggers too. Perhaps teh ambi-dex gloves are enough?

My reccommendation? Go 3/8/19 Bard or rogue (bard makes sense with the CHA, take for RP reasons)/Fighter/Assassin, 3/7/10 pre-epic. You should be able to fit in all the feats you need.
Start with stats: 8/18/12/14/8/12, you don't really need a high STR on this build.

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