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PaladinOfSune
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 Posted: Fri, May 03 2013, 17:58 PM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: England, UK
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Epic Fortitude in epic? It'll work better than the 2 Fort you'd get pre-epic.
_________________  "Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Fri, May 03 2013, 18:02 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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exquisitelyme wrote: Naivatkal wrote: Points of note:
1) Added Zen Archery since it made sense and I had a spare pre-epic feat. Seemed silly to take any save-feats since the base saves are already pretty ridiculous. Maybe exchange Zen Archery with Weapon Finesse since you dont seem to particularly care for it, and Finesse gives you a melee AB boost for the DEX heavy forms? Not a bad idea, though I do like the Zen Archery idea. Gives the char something to do other than shift. More versatility! Naivatkal wrote: 3) Question: If I were to get rid of Epic Prowess or Armor Skin (both?) what would be a good other option? Not sure if I necessarily need either, since I dunno how amazing shifter AB and AC can get. Anyone? Not sure if Epic Prowess/Armor Skin as 'must haves'.
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
Last edited by Naivatkal on Sun, May 05 2013, 0:58 AM, edited 4 times in total.
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Bobo_Underhill
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Posted: Fri, May 03 2013, 18:09 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Location: The Drone Star State
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Fair enough. What should I grab on rogue 10, then? I guess crippling strike could work.
_________________
Andrew Fryar: Cordor's Folk Hero
Bobrin: Eccentric Avenging Executioner
Lyle Torrowfire: Retired badass
Marigold Cobcruncher: Perceptive Priestess
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exquisitelyme
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Posted: Fri, May 03 2013, 18:44 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2009
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Naivatkal wrote: exquisitelyme wrote: Naivatkal wrote: Points of note:
1) Added Zen Archery since it made sense and I had a spare pre-epic feat. Seemed silly to take any save-feats since the base saves are already pretty ridiculous.
Maybe exchange Zen Archery with Weapon Finesse since you dont seem to particularly care for it, and Finesse gives you a melee AB boost for the DEX heavy forms? Not a bad idea, though I do like the Zen Archery idea. Gives the char something to do other than shift. More versatility! Naivatkal wrote: 3) Question: If I were to get rid of Epic Prowess or Armor Skin (both?) what would be a good other option? Not sure if I necessarily need either, since I dunno how amazing shifter AB and AC can get.[/color] Anyone? Not sure if Epic Prowess/Armor Skin as 'must haves'. Checked because of what Sune said and before 1.69 Finesse was borked with small or medium shapes, works fine now with all of them tho. I dont have experience with Shifters in Amia but in other modules I failed miserably every time I tried to go for versatility not based on the shapes, it is usually too dangerous to fight stuff in your base form. I think there are 2 shapes that use ranged weapons tho? You may be more versatile by picking Zen Archery anyway. From the Shifter bonus spreadsheet too I think AB should be a higher priority as AC.
_________________
I play:
Frums Deedone, the Green Child
Balrig Sootkiln, Blood and Vellum
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Fri, May 03 2013, 19:36 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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Well the bow would mostly be for when in a party. It's nice to be able to shoot from the back if needed, haha.
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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exquisitelyme
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Posted: Fri, May 03 2013, 20:04 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2009
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Sent you a PM Nav. But openly I can say that with Shifters getting infinite breath attacks at lvl 6, Balagharn's at lvl 8, Manticore Spikes at lvl 10 and Hammer of the Gods + Cure Critical + Searing Light at lvl 12, and all of these improve in Epic Shapes, and the Epic Shape Feats provide you with even more powerful stuff (like infinite Storm of Vengeance, Firestorm, Sunbeam, Web, Lesser Missile Storm...This is only from the Shifter Shapes, the ones that require feats have others), well... Just focus on Saves+AB+AC and learn the shapes. There is nothing a SHifter cant do in Amia.
Edit for clarity: The lvls mentioned already take the 5 druid levels in consideration. D5/S1 gets breath, D5/S3 Balagharn's, D5/S5 Hammer, etc...
Edit 2: Forget about Finesse, the shapes with the highest DEX (Kobold and Spectre) already get it for free.
_________________
I play:
Frums Deedone, the Green Child
Balrig Sootkiln, Blood and Vellum
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treant13
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Posted: Fri, May 03 2013, 22:23 PM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Oct 2012
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Can I survive with a base str of 4 with my Kobold? Also if i instead go dart instead of crossbow and focus on sneak attack as main damage along with traps. Is this train of thought leading me into a bad place?  Maybe short bow....(continues pondering)
_________________
Lance battle shifter of Red Knight
Lyle Underburrow...I would watch where you step when he's around, you might go boom
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NinjaClarinet
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Posted: Fri, May 03 2013, 23:37 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Jul 2010
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Something people overlook with strength is carry weight. A good rogue tends to carry several situational gear sets, which is difficult with 10 strength, let alone 4.
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Fri, May 03 2013, 23:38 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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NinjaClarinet wrote: Something people overlook with strength is carry weight. A good rogue tends to carry several situational gear sets, which is difficult with 10 strength, let alone 4. This, hehe. Part of the reason why if I have left over skill points on a non-strength build they go to STR if nothing else is needed.
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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DerkDerkistan
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Posted: Sat, May 04 2013, 0:54 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Location: Earth
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I had a sorcerer with 6 strength and it was miserable. I can't even begin to fathom a rogue with 4.
_________________
Remember when I knew a boxer, baby
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Manarethan
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Posted: Sat, May 04 2013, 2:14 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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A character with 4 strength is 1 point away from being physically unable to move. So.... >.>
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Bobo_Underhill
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Posted: Sat, May 04 2013, 2:41 AM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Location: The Drone Star State
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You can't do a trap focus rogue with 4 strength. My trapper has 10 strength and he fights with encumbrance thanks to all the traps he carries and some skill-switchies.
_________________
Andrew Fryar: Cordor's Folk Hero
Bobrin: Eccentric Avenging Executioner
Lyle Torrowfire: Retired badass
Marigold Cobcruncher: Perceptive Priestess
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Mr. Hackums
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Posted: Sat, May 04 2013, 3:06 AM |
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Player
Joined: 22 May 2008
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I'm going to have nightmares of a 4 str character.  Like a really weak midget, barely strangling you. "U-uughh.." This isn't harping on you, either. I know you have your answer, and this is just extra input. Ah, but I'll supply helpful hints. With a rogue, I would never really consider going less than 8 STR, and I would feel bad about it even then. You're going to be managing lots of traps, weapons, cloaks (Oh my god, the cloaks), so you'll want that carrying weight. Also, with 4 strength that makes you incredibly vulnerable to STR damage death. Like Shadows and some other fun/painful/horrible things.
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treant13
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Posted: Sat, May 04 2013, 4:12 AM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Oct 2012
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Okay here is the build I have come up with after I took your input into account.
Halfling
STR 12
DEX 20
CON 10
INT 12
WIS 8
CHA 8
Skill Maxed: Hide, MS, Set Trap, Craft Trap, Disable Trap, Search, Tumble
Non-maxed Skills: UMD, Discipline, Spot, Listen, Lore, Open Lock
1 Rogue 1 Dodge
3 Rogue 3 Mobility
6 Rogue 6 SF: Spot
9 SD2 SF: Listen
12 MS1 Great Fort SF: Disable
15 MS4 Shield
18 Rogue 10 Imp Evasion
21 MS5 Great Dex 1 ESF: MS
23 SD6 HIPS
24 Rogue 13 Skill Mastery ESF: Hide
27 Rogue 16 Epic Dodge ESF: Disable Trap
30 Rogue 19 Epic Prowess Armor Skin
So I am going to focus on thrown weapons(though not any specific one) to take advantage of the good aim feat. Other then that I am guessing the most problem points will be feat focusing so much on disable trap and maxing craft trap. I feel I probably don't need so much in craft so that is probably lowerable. Also I figure with all my focuses I will get 120 in disable trap which I would hope is enough to recover epic traps from anywhere in the module (which will be very important at higher levels). I will have about 35 AB and 48 AC (I could have figured both wrong). So what are my greatest problems?
Side Note: I really was trying for Kobold, but the encumbrance issue was "weighing" on me. Pun intended.
_________________
Lance battle shifter of Red Knight
Lyle Underburrow...I would watch where you step when he's around, you might go boom
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DerkDerkistan
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Posted: Sat, May 04 2013, 17:43 PM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Location: Earth
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You don't need nearly that much for recovering epic traps.
_________________
Remember when I knew a boxer, baby
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QPR
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Posted: Sat, May 04 2013, 18:08 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Location: Norway
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My ranger is able to recover epic traps with only 5 ranks, some gear, handy potions and, ahem, a special trick.
_________________
"Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II
Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger
Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes
Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.
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Strawberry Stallion
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Posted: Sat, May 04 2013, 18:37 PM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Aug 2010
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treant13 wrote: Okay here is the build I have come up with after I took your input into account.
Halfling
STR 12
DEX 20
CON 10
INT 12
WIS 8
CHA 8
Skill Maxed: Hide, MS, Set Trap, Craft Trap, Disable Trap, Search, Tumble
Non-maxed Skills: UMD, Discipline, Spot, Listen, Lore, Open Lock
1 Rogue 1 Dodge
3 Rogue 3 Mobility
6 Rogue 6 SF: Spot
9 SD2 SF: Listen
12 MS1 Great Fort SF: Disable
15 MS4 Shield
18 Rogue 10 Imp Evasion
21 MS5 Great Dex 1 ESF: MS
23 SD6 HIPS
24 Rogue 13 Skill Mastery ESF: Hide
27 Rogue 16 Epic Dodge ESF: Disable Trap
30 Rogue 19 Epic Prowess Armor Skin
So I am going to focus on thrown weapons(though not any specific one) to take advantage of the good aim feat. Other then that I am guessing the most problem points will be feat focusing so much on disable trap and maxing craft trap. I feel I probably don't need so much in craft so that is probably lowerable. Also I figure with all my focuses I will get 120 in disable trap which I would hope is enough to recover epic traps from anywhere in the module (which will be very important at higher levels). I will have about 35 AB and 48 AC (I could have figured both wrong). So what are my greatest problems?
Side Note: I really was trying for Kobold, but the encumbrance issue was "weighing" on me. Pun intended. Seeing how you would only lose 2 points of strength in that build, you could still switch to Kobold with 10 str. I still think it's silly that kobolds get -4 str vs +2 dex, no matter what tiny little skill bonuses they get, but that is best left for another time. You wouldn't need to max out disable trap, so you can use those points for other things. A rogue's cunning or two will help you if needed. You also don't need skill focus listen since spot is vastly superior, along with skill focus disable trap... did you even pick up a weapon focus and improved critical or crippling strike? Since you're picking up a shield I would suggest you take it far earlier than 15, since that's a +7 AC you're missing for that long. Also, I suggest you move your master scout levels into epic if you can since that's usually the best time to take them given their epic bonus feats. Be sure you have multiples of 4 for your classes before 20, to maximize your ab. So 16 rogue 4 sd before 20 would probably be best.
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Cerpin Taxt
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Posted: Sat, May 04 2013, 20:40 PM |
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Player
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
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treant13 wrote: 1 Rogue 1 Dodge
3 Rogue 3 Mobility
6 Rogue 6 SF: Spot
9 SD2 SF: Listen
12 MS1 Great Fort SF: Disable
15 MS4 Shield
18 Rogue 10 Imp Evasion
21 MS5 Great Dex 1 ESF: MS
23 SD6 HIPS
24 Rogue 13 Skill Mastery ESF: Hide
27 Rogue 16 Epic Dodge ESF: Disable Trap
30 Rogue 19 Epic Prowess Armor Skin
Do you last master scout level at 29 or 30 so you can get 32/33 discipline.
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treant13
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Posted: Sat, May 04 2013, 21:13 PM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Oct 2012
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I was under the impression that epic traps could have DC's of 100. I need both SF: Listen and Spot as requirements for Master Scout. I took 12 Rogue, 4 SD, and 4 MS pre-epic so that I could take advantage of the fortitude saves of the MS. I can't take crippling strike since I will be using ranged, unless I am wrong. Though I will take the idea of MS on 29 so I can get higher Discipline.
Most important question is the Epic Trap DC recovery. I thought a rogue in Electric Castle told me one the trap was 100 to disable. That is a trap I want to definitely recover.
_________________
Lance battle shifter of Red Knight
Lyle Underburrow...I would watch where you step when he's around, you might go boom
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Bobo_Underhill
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Posted: Sat, May 04 2013, 21:17 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Location: The Drone Star State
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You can do on 10 strength easy, yeah, if you want to keep a kobold. You'd have to invest in magic bags any way you cut it.
_________________
Andrew Fryar: Cordor's Folk Hero
Bobrin: Eccentric Avenging Executioner
Lyle Torrowfire: Retired badass
Marigold Cobcruncher: Perceptive Priestess
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Strawberry Stallion
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Posted: Sun, May 05 2013, 0:52 AM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Aug 2010
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Forgot about those two feats being needed for master scout, and yes crippling doesn't work on ranged, so in which case you're fine in that regard. Still think you should take the levels of MS in epic levels, but so long as you get the fifth level at 28/29 then that's fine I suppose.
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Sun, May 05 2013, 0:58 AM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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Naivatkal wrote: 3) Question: If I were to get rid of Epic Prowess or Armor Skin (both?) what would be a good other option? Not sure if I necessarily need either, since I dunno how amazing shifter AB and AC can get.[/color] Can I get some more feedback on this? Build might switch to loosing DC levels in favor of more druid and a bard level, so I would have to choose between the two. Guessing keep Epic Prowess?
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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PaladinOfSune
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Posted: Sun, May 05 2013, 1:20 AM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: England, UK
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Armor Skin gives +2 AC, Epic Prowess only gives +1 AB. Ergo, Armor Skin is always superior.
_________________ "Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Sun, May 05 2013, 1:46 AM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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Hm, good point. Wasn't sure if they had AC or AB overload, hah. We shall see what happens, then!
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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wolfurt
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Posted: Mon, May 06 2013, 6:44 AM |
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Player
Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Location: equestria ;]
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--
Last edited by wolfurt on Wed, May 08 2013, 20:00 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Queenofblades
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Posted: Mon, May 06 2013, 21:55 PM |
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Player
Joined: 19 Mar 2013
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Good Evening Amians' I seek your council on the following  ------------------------------------------------------- Race: Durpari Human Class: Bard 7 / Knight Commander The concept behind this character is that she is a Warsinger, which is a warrior who stands side by side with her fellow warriors and sings/plays an instrument/chants in a variety of ways to inspire the troops. To that end she must be able to stand toe to toe with any enemy alongside her more martial comrades and at least defend herself and stay alive to provide the troops with her commanding and inspiring presence. The following is a prototype build based on the one I have already achieved in game, due to the character’s IC interactions and experiences I am looking to focus the build on being able to sing various song spells (aka cast spells) more effectively in combat. And to ignore the inane blathering of the foe (aka counter taunt attempts) And so unused skills have been dropped in favour of concentration skill and the Improved Combat Casting feat has been taken to eliminate attacks of opportunity entirely (if I have understood the feat correctly) Unfortunately contrary to default Neverwinter Nights, Amia does not allow spell casting whilst in expertise mode but the fact she can now do it without a concentration check is enough. Base Attributes (attribute after racial modification) [intended level based boosts] Strength: 15 (14) [+2] Dexterity: 12 Constitution: 10 (9) [+1] Wisdom: 8 Intelligence: 14 Charisma; 16 (18) [+4] Level progression and feats B1. Skill Focus Discipline, Toughness B2. B3. Expertise B4. +1 Constitution B5. B6. Blind Fight B7. KC8 +1 Charisma KC9. Improved Expertise KC10. KC11. KC12.+1 Charisma, Improved Critical Long sword B13. B14. B15.Curse Song B16. +1 Strength B17. B17. B18.Combat Casting B19. B20. +1 Strength B21. Epic Fortitude B22. B23. B24. +1 Charisma, Improved Combat Casting B25. B26. B27. Lasting Inspirations B28. +1 Charisma, Epic Skill Focus Discipline B29. B30. Armour Skin Base skill ranks at level 30 (before attribute modification and feats) Concentration 33 Discipline 33 Heal 31 Lore 4 Perform 33 Persuade 4 Taunt 33 Tumble 30 Use Magic Device 20 -------------------------------------------------------
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QPR
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Posted: Mon, May 06 2013, 23:08 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Location: Norway
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4 KC levels pre-epic for extra attack, Lasting Winspiration as early as possible, aka level 24.
You will not need more than 16 or 18 base charisma. Put the rest in strength
_________________
"Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II
Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger
Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes
Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.
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Queenofblades
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Posted: Tue, May 07 2013, 0:15 AM |
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Player
Joined: 19 Mar 2013
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QPR wrote: 4 KC levels pre-epic for extra attack, Lasting Winspiration as early as possible, aka level 24.
You will not need more than 16 or 18 base charisma. Put the rest in strength Thank you for the comments, if I can get the build sorted its going to be a full DC rebuild so I am not so concerned with the specifics of when to take feats except where one unlocks another. The build starting Charisma after racial adjustment is going to be 18, was planning on upping this to 22 and strength up to 16. Are you suggesting I go Charisma 20 (lowest I want to have to get full KC bonuses) and Strength 18 perhaps? Also I am taking the full five levels of KC immediately after Bard level 7 (as this gives the base attack +5 required for KC) for the additional hit points and attack bonus. I am quite interested in peoples take on the Improved Combat Casting feat as its one I have never ever taken.
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serbiris
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Posted: Tue, May 07 2013, 0:29 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
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You'll be getting maxed KC bonuses pretty much regardless of your cha score, because your gear will boost that stat (for Perform and extra spell slots, mainly). 16 cha is usually the most people go on bards. You'll be better off putting as many points into Str as possible with that loadout, but that's about all I know about bards.
Combat Casting isn't really worth it - all it really does is remove the -4 Concentration penalty, and if you have a good skill level you won't need that. Even then it does nothing against regular attacks, just Attacks of Opportunity.
_________________
@Thanatopsis#6293
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Righteous Anger
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Posted: Tue, May 07 2013, 1:51 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Feb 2012
Location: South Carolina, USA
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Queenofblades wrote:
Base Attributes (attribute after racial modification) [intended level based boosts]
Strength: 15 (14) [+2] [+6]
Dexterity: 12
Constitution: 10 (9) [+1]
Wisdom: 8
Intelligence: 14
Charisma; 16 (18) [+4]
Level progression and feats
B1. Skill Focus Discipline, Toughness
B2.
B3. Expertise
B4. +1 Constitution +1 Strength
B5.
B6. Blind Fight
B7.
KC8 +1 Charisma +1 Strength
KC9. Improved Expertise
KC10.
KC11.
KC12.+1 Charisma, +1 Strength, Improved Critical Long sword
B13.
B14.
B15.Curse Song
B16. +1 Strength
B17.
B17.
B18. Combat Casting Weapon Focus Longsword
B19.
B20. +1 Strength
B21. Epic Fortitude Armor Skin
B22.
B23.
B24. +1 Charisma, +1 Strength, Improved Combat Casting Epic Weapon Focus Longsword
B25.
B26.
B27. Lasting Inspirations
B28. +1 Charisma, +1 Constitution Epic Skill Focus Discipline Epic Prowess
B29.
B30. Armour Skin Epic Skill Focus Discipline / Epic Fortitude
Base skill ranks at level 30 (before attribute modification and feats)
Concentration 33
Discipline 33
Heal 31
Lore 4
Perform 33
Persuade 4
Taunt 33
Tumble 30
Use Magic Device 20
-------------------------------------------------------
The primary thing every builder needs to decide when making a character is what they want that character to achieve mechanically. Once you decide that, hyper focus and do that thing -- completely, and well. I'm working off the assumption that this character is already made and being played, and as such the starting stats can't be changed. That's understandable. However, in a perfect world you'd decide whether or not you wanted a Caster Bard or a Melee Bard and stick to it. Splitting up your precious few ability score boost between Charisma and Strength makes you suck at both things and be good at neither instead of sucking at one and being good at the other. The way I've changed the build you listed, I allowed you to keep some of the things in your concept while also netting you +6 AB and effectively losing you nothing (as your spell DCs would still be too low to do any good at 22 base Charisma, anyway, and most of them should be buffs to begin with.) You really should have Extend Spell in there, and I'd personally trade it out for Improved Expertise. +4 AC and +1 Attack Per Round for 50 Rounds is infinitely stronger than +10 AC for -10 AB all day. The strength of Bard / KC is the overlap. You can effectively create a melee build that uses Bard Song, Curse Song, Taunt, and Entreat to reduce an opponent to such an absurdly low AC and an effectively low Discipline Score that you can beat them down no problem. This at least gets you a bit closer to doing that, even if I'd rather have Knockdown than Expertise. Think on this for a minute if you think Expertise / Improved Expertise are necessary for your Bard: 10 Base + 1 Dex + 12 full plate + 7 tower shield + 6 tumble + 2 armor skin + 5 boots + 4 natural + 4 deflection + 1 mage armor + 4 haste + 5 bard song + 2 (effective) curse song +2 (effective) entreat = 65 AC. That's without +5 Epic Gear, which you'll be able to farm, since you're a Melee Bard. On top of that, with the right auras active you're immune to pretty much everything and it isn't possible for those immunities to be dispelled. Without trying (ie, expertise/improved expertise) you have awesome defense. If you go the extra mile, you do so at the sacrifice of all offensive viability. Just my two cents, after having made one of these.
_________________
"I will never refuse a challenge from an equal. I will give honor to worthy enemies, and contempt to the rest."
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maglorine
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Posted: Tue, May 07 2013, 2:15 AM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
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Repose Domain Deathless Summon: If anyone has taken or seen the highest form, the Deathless Judge, can you tell me if it's a feasible Epic Summon? I mean, if I plan it right I can squeeze EMD into the build but why bother if you have something that already works, right? I'm assuming it's viable since you get the last upgrade at 27th level but you never know. I'll have the upgraded Gate as a backup.
I don't need stats or screenies, just a quick thumbnail on it's viability.
_________________
Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object
True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder
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Righteous Anger
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Posted: Tue, May 07 2013, 2:38 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Feb 2012
Location: South Carolina, USA
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maglorine wrote: Repose Domain Deathless Summon: If anyone has taken or seen the highest form, the Deathless Judge, can you tell me if it's a feasible Epic Summon? I mean, if I plan it right I can squeeze EMD into the build but why bother if you have something that already works, right? I'm assuming it's viable since you get the last upgrade at 27th level but you never know. I'll have the upgraded Gate as a backup.
I don't need stats or screenies, just a quick thumbnail on it's viability. Seems like it's viable from what I've seen in PvM from another player using it.
_________________
"I will never refuse a challenge from an equal. I will give honor to worthy enemies, and contempt to the rest."
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Queenofblades
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Posted: Tue, May 07 2013, 8:32 AM |
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Player
Joined: 19 Mar 2013
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Righteous Anger, thank you for the comprehensive reply you have definitely given me something to think about there. This character is already in play and as of writing a hairs breadth away from level 30 so I guess I am limited to a degree in what I can change without supporting RP reasons. The current RP situation of this character is that from the outset her chosen role was as a support character for her faction and knowing nothing about bards as I had never built one before I was happy to let her develop and build organically taking advice from faction mates as I went. She is very good at the support role but as I learned more about Bards and KC I felt I could maintain the good RP whilst getting more from the build mechanically, hence this post. After reading your reply I am know wondering which would be best mechanically but still fit her RP, She likes to give the team a few buffs like improved invisibility, circle of protection, mage armour, and greater magic weapon where required and mass hasted, but once in combat I like to use the debuff spells like dirge and wounding whispers, dispel, war cry and so on. Given that her faction is filled with manly men shield with all the dev crits a girl could want surrounding her although I love your melee build, could I have your thoughts on a more caster based build to provide as high DC checks for her debuffs as possible whilst still including survival feats like epic fortitude and armour skin. Not saying the melee build isn't an option I would just like to explore the other option a bit more too and see if its viable for her. p.s. whilst I am looking to optimize mechanically any rebuild will still have to retain the RP ethos and concept of this char, I do this knowing that 1v1 she will likely be food for those pvp RPless winged cheese builds out there. But her role is to support her team not be a solo pwnbot. Thanks for your time
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exquisitelyme
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Posted: Tue, May 07 2013, 10:32 AM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2009
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NWN doesnt really help one in making a caster bard. Because their spells go only up to 6th circle, and they cant take Epic Spell Focus, right there you lose 5 DC compared to a Sorc/Wiz/Cleric/Druid casting a 9th circle spell, given all examples maxed their casting stats. Not to mention Bards lack powerful attack/debuff spells to begin with, most are very easy to be immune to, especially in the level of magic in Amia.
IMHO the best debuffer bard goes for Saves + AC + HPs. If you have survivability you can use Curse Song, Dirge, Taunt, KD, War Cry, Darkness and Wounding Whispers + your KC auras to make sure that whoever approaches you (or is approached by you) pays dearly.
Bard spell repertoire is so poor that no matter how you do it when you hit level 20 in the class you have all 5th circle spells and will only ever use Visage or G.Dispel at that level. And using one of them means you are losing an Extended/Stilled War Cry. And if you Still/Extend a 5th circle spell you are losing a Mass Haste. AND to use an Extended/Stilled Mass Haste you need a DC item with Extra Spell Slot 7th circle for Bards, which does work but is not something developers include in loot tables.
On the other hand if you really want support and wouldnt mind sacrificing autonomy for it, you can go full Enchantment Focus line, full CHA and get more castings of your spells. You will be a poor warrior, but one hell of an interrogator/diplomat/middlewoman. Nym will be very useful in the Keep (and I mean it in a nice, non-Naivatkal way =P) but in the field you will have to make her run like hell after buffing and Cursing. A melee Bard can do that and contribute with damage, Taunt, IKD, etc.
Hope it helps
_________________
I play:
Frums Deedone, the Green Child
Balrig Sootkiln, Blood and Vellum
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GreatPigeon
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Posted: Tue, May 07 2013, 11:09 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 May 2009
Location: London, UK
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16 cha gives you 5 mass hastes
18 cha gives you 6 mass hastes
I don't think they get another one until 26 base cha?
(all assumed to be plus 12 btw)
Other than masshaste your spells are mostly to buff yourself, 18 cha is all you need...
_________________ The Peacock wrote: [GreatPigeon] is better than me. Uncle-Opustus wrote: Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
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exquisitelyme
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Posted: Tue, May 07 2013, 11:16 AM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2009
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22 CHA gives you a bonus 6th, you get another at 28 CHA and one more at 36 CHA.
_________________
I play:
Frums Deedone, the Green Child
Balrig Sootkiln, Blood and Vellum
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Queenofblades
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Posted: Tue, May 07 2013, 12:13 PM |
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Player
Joined: 19 Mar 2013
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OK so some compelling arguments for the melee bard, I get that I cant really make the spell DC any higher than 26 (including +12 charisma gear on top of base 18) which is a real bummer as many of the debuffs are aimed at fighter types and so their fort is likely to be 30+ at least. That is disheartening, so I guess the two feats to make casting not generate attacks of oppotunity would be wasted as with decent non-expertise based AC and concentration most spells should fire off anyway?
Edit: Contemplating swapping improved expertise & expertise for knockdown and improved knockdown
Last edited by Queenofblades on Tue, May 07 2013, 13:46 PM, edited 2 times in total.
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exquisitelyme
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Posted: Tue, May 07 2013, 12:22 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2009
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Cosidering you will be able to hit the sweet spot of 27 Concentration you can get the same benefits of both feats by just using Defensive Casting basically.
Side note, (Imp) Expertise helps in that while you cant cast spells and enjoy the +AC at the same time, you CAN activate Expertise, click on an enemy to move towards them, and while in range activate Curse Song. You will keep the +AC up until CS fires, giving you a boost in survivability. Your Tumble will cover your retreat.
_________________
I play:
Frums Deedone, the Green Child
Balrig Sootkiln, Blood and Vellum
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QPR
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Posted: Tue, May 07 2013, 15:26 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Location: Norway
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Bards have enough AC without expertise. There are more useful feats in my opinion. My spear wielding level 23 pure bard outdamages and out-AC's anything else I have ever built, regardless of level. His saves are nothing to write home about and the d6 HP per level hurts a bit, but overall he is one of the stronger melee characters I have when self-buffed. With 18 charisma you have enough spells, and bard spells were never meant to be offensive anyway. They are there to buff your bard. The negative effects of war cry and dirge on enemies are just a handy bonus.
And for the love of everything that is fabulous, you really want lasting inspiration at the earliest possible opportunity, that is level 24 when you take 4 levels of KC pre-epic. Same with curse song.
Edit: as for feats, you will want the following: Toughness, SF disc, WF:whatever, curse song, extend spell, Imp crit: whatever, Maximise spell and Blind fight. Extend is a must when you go with a caster bard. 5 min haste and imp invis opposed to 2 and a half? hell yeah.
_________________
"Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II
Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger
Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes
Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.
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treant13
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Posted: Tue, May 07 2013, 21:29 PM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Oct 2012
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Which is more important for a ranged only (slings and darts) build only, blind fight or rapid shot?
_________________
Lance battle shifter of Red Knight
Lyle Underburrow...I would watch where you step when he's around, you might go boom
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wolfurt
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Posted: Tue, May 07 2013, 21:38 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Location: equestria ;]
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treant13 wrote: Which is more important for a ranged only (slings and darts) build only, blind fight or rapid shot? Rapid shot D:
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PaladinOfSune
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Posted: Tue, May 07 2013, 21:56 PM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: England, UK
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Both. There's something majorly wrong with your build if you can't take both of them.
_________________ "Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."
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treant13
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Posted: Tue, May 07 2013, 22:19 PM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Oct 2012
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Okay here is an updated version of my trap master. He will be using slings and darts as his weapons of choice.
Level Class
1 Rog 1 Shield Prof.
2 Rog 2
3 Rog 3 Dodge
4 Rog 4
5 Rog 5
6 Rog 6 Mobility
7 Rog 7
8 Rog 8
9 Rog 9 SF: Spot
10 Rog 10 Imp. Evasion
11 Rog 11
12 Rog 12 SF: Listen
13 SD1
14 MS 1 Great Fort
15 MS 2 Point Blank
16 MS 3
17 MS 4
18 SD2 Rapid Shot
19 SD3
20 SD4 (Shadow Jump)
21 SD 5 Armor Skin
22 SD 6 HIPS
23 Rog 13 Skill Mastery
24 Rog 14 Blind Fight
25 Rog 15
26 Rog 16 ESF: Hide
27 Rog 17 Epic Dodge
28 Rog 18
29 Rog 19 ESF: MS
30 MS 5 Epic Prowess Great Dexterity
Look okay?
_________________
Lance battle shifter of Red Knight
Lyle Underburrow...I would watch where you step when he's around, you might go boom
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PaladinOfSune
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Posted: Tue, May 07 2013, 22:27 PM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: England, UK
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You'd be better off taking a high BAB class than SD. More feats free, the all-important fourth attack, better saves. Plus then you'd be able to take all your MS levels in epic.
_________________ "Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."
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treant13
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Posted: Tue, May 07 2013, 22:32 PM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Oct 2012
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I figured that HIPS would be better for helping with sneak attacks and battle trapping. Of course if there is another way I would be open to it.
Retrying with 6 levels of DC. I think there is a "darkness ball" I can use to hide mid combat...at least I think there is.
_________________
Lance battle shifter of Red Knight
Lyle Underburrow...I would watch where you step when he's around, you might go boom
Last edited by treant13 on Tue, May 07 2013, 23:59 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Casvenx
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Posted: Tue, May 07 2013, 23:54 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Feb 2013
Location: Badlands of 'Murika
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Just spent time working out a similar MS build, and the full BAB progression really is useful to it. Might consider going for DC rather then Fighter... Better saves (+8/+8/+5 vs +5/+2/+2) while keeping the bonus feats, and only losing weapon specialization.
_________________ 
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Bobo_Underhill
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Posted: Wed, May 08 2013, 6:14 AM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Location: The Drone Star State
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Weapon specialization is a pretty big deal.
_________________
Andrew Fryar: Cordor's Folk Hero
Bobrin: Eccentric Avenging Executioner
Lyle Torrowfire: Retired badass
Marigold Cobcruncher: Perceptive Priestess
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Mr. Hackums
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Posted: Wed, May 08 2013, 14:41 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 May 2008
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I'm a bit torn on the fighter vs DC for a rogue.
Rogues have notoriously weak saves (Unless you gear them correctly), so any help with saves is extremely important, in my books. Especially if you don't have the capability to HiPS dodge spells.
Weapon specialization is also extremely useful, though. It'll give you sufficient damage to hit without sneak attacks (As well as a neat and noticeable jump in your overall damage). So you'll hit harder against some Abyssal creatures, undead, etc. I play a Rogue/SD/Fighter with epic weapon spec, and I love it. His damage isn't going to be as high as yours, but his average damage is always pretty high.
If this is one of your first rogues, and you're trying to really focus in trap setting, I might suggest the DC route, for some extra survivability (Plus the roleplay of a more divinely focused individual, but that's neither here nor there. Simply saying there are other reasons that people would choose the class!) However, if you think you can handle the challenge, I would suggest going 6 fighter instead. With 6 DC, you get extra saves. A solid amount, too. But no amount of gear orienteering will ever give you Epic weapon spec. And with the right gear swapping, you can actually get very high saves on a rogue, while still being able to dish some damage. (A very good strategy against mages, clerics, etc).
Plus, your MS battle fortitude should already help with your saves in sticky spots. I'd personally go 6 fighter, and learn to gear swap effectively to cover some losses.
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treant13
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Posted: Wed, May 08 2013, 22:21 PM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Oct 2012
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Would focusing on sling and dart be a bad idea. I calculated and can get all the way to epic spec with imp crit for both of them on my trapper build. Question is would it be worth it? If not then which would be better to focus on sling or dart.
_________________
Lance battle shifter of Red Knight
Lyle Underburrow...I would watch where you step when he's around, you might go boom
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wolfurt
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Posted: Wed, May 08 2013, 23:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Location: equestria ;]
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There is no point focusing in two ranged weapons, put the feats elsewhere (save feats, etc).
There really isn't much of a difference between sling or dart, whatever fits your roleplay.
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