AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Teach a Man to Fish topic (Build topic):

Monk build.

When I think monk I think bare handed, that's just me.

Is it feasible to go with a strength based, non-kama\weapon build?

If so, any help with build would be greatly appreciated, I'm assuming you would add a second or even a third class to help with regards to survivability.

Any recommendations from those that have played monks here?

Monk6/Wizard24. Boom. If you're looking for a STR monk, you need something to compensate for the lack of DEX AC. In this case, you get Epic Mage Armor, Premonition, maximized ability spells, that sort of thing. Won't have a whole lot of attacks, about 6, but hey. It's a wizard.

If you're looking for something more monk oriented... there's no easy way to do it. Technically 20 monk gets +4 AC, not counting the WIS bonus. All in all, a non-DEX monk still is going to look for DEX buffs cause he's wearing robe anyway - that's where all the issues come from - you need to get that +12 STR, DEX, WIS, possibly CON from somewhere. Casters seem like best choice with their Maximized ability buffs, Tensers/Divine Power/Aura of Vitality, also maybe Druid for Owl's Insight, or UMD with scrolls.

Just a few tips.

Strength based monk is downright pain in the ass. I have one with devcrit on fists, just for the kicks, and I can say dex ones are far superior (not to mention 24 monk/6 SD version with epic dodge).
But if you are dead-set on strength monk who uses fists, then I guess 21 monk/6 fighter/3 rogue (that's already been advocated couple of pages before) is best bet. If you don't need glowing eyes, you can even drop to 16 monk (max. fist damage) and get more fighter for more epic feats. 3 levels rogue are a must for both more skills (you won't have stats to invest in int) and more importantly, uncanny dodge - to save yourself of losing whatever dex bonus you manage to scrounge on already low AC in epics (fists due to short range have nasty tendency to leave you flatfooted when you try to great cleave or make attacks of opportunity on bigger targets).
Also, UMD is a MUST, don't even think leaving the home without Owl's insights scrolls and Improved Invisibility wands.
And trust me, you will need to scrounge every point of AC you can. Even with best monk gear you can get, owl's insight scroll, and max rolls on ability potions, you'll be sitting at around 55 AC (without haste), which is AC of str WM with couple +5 ac items.
I also advise to drop Devcrit completely, it's just for the giggles, with your mighty 19-20 crit range and x2 multiplier you'll neither crit enemies often nor keep them down for long. It will free feats for more important stuff like Epic Weapon Spec. (unless you want to go DC instead of fighter, since your saves won't be overly noteworthy too), and even free some pre-epic feats (no need for cleave stuff, unless you are dead set to have great cleave for pleasure of killing low level mobs faster).
Your AB will get around +45, which isn't bad, and it will allow you to make occasional use of power attack for more damage. Don't forget to stock on bless/aid items, and getting certain drum might be useful in tougher situations. And get a load of haste potions/wands. They are pretty much a must in all epic dungeons.

Hi all I need a little bit of advice, I am following the build below but it may be required to rebuild or delevel in order to drop one of the feats to be replace by either "Craft wand" or "Craft potion" (not both).

Best I can think of that could be removed and still be within the RP of the character would be one of the following, Divine Might, or Divine Shield

The build and RP is as a Kelemvor melee cleric (self buffer only) so improved crit and Knockdown I want to keep for dealing with those pesky necro's and their still living peons.

The reason for this concern is I want to be able to craft the Repose domain spell "Bless Weapon" into potion/wand to use it more on the character and/or to be able to sell/give those items to team mates when facing undead as part of his Doomguide duty.

Alternatively I could maybe keep the build as is and request some sort of DC item to do that same?

Code:

STR 14
DEX 8
CON 10
INT 14
WIS 16 (20)
CHA 14 (18)

Human 24 CLERIC/5 FIGHTER/1 ROGUE

F POWER ATTACK, EXOTIC WEAPON PROFICIENCY, WEAPON FOCUS BASTARD SWORD
F BLIND-FIGHT
C DIVINE MIGHT
F WISDOM +1
C
F WEAPONS SPECIALIZATION BASTARD SWORD, EXTEND SPELL
C
C WISDOM +1
C MAXIMIZE SPELL
C
C
C WISDOM +1,IMPROVED CRITICAL BASTARD SWORD
C
C
C DIVINE SHIELD 
C WISDOM +1
C
C KNOCKDOWN
C
F CHARISMA +1
C EPIC CHARISMA
C
C
C CHARISMA +1, EPIC WEAPON FOCUS BASTARD SWORD
C
C
C EPIC SPELL MUMMY DUST, ARMOUR SKIN
R CHARISMA +1, TUMBLE 30, UMD 25
C 
F EPIC WEAPON SPECIALIZATION BASTARD SWORD, DISC 33, HEAL 20

Well, you have 6 levels of fighter there (unless that fighter level at 20th is a typo, and seeing you didn't count for feat at 6th fighter level, probably is).
While I must warn you I never played melee clerics myself, this is my experience from observing others.
Divine shield/might are pretty much a must for a melee cleric, from what I saw IG. Only optimal solution is to drop exotic weapon, but you probably want to keep using deity's favoured weapon. On the other hand, if your primary concern is to fight undead, then imp. crit shouldn't be high on the list of priorities (at least RP wise). Melee clerics are really feat tight, and trying to fit in anything not related to direct combat efficiency is a nightmare.
If your choice is set between Divine Shield and Might, my gut reaction would be to drop Might. You should be able to buff your damage enough with spells and EWS would provide fine constant damage bonus. What clerics basically lack is way to boost AC, Divine Shield is only decent way they can do that (and Haste from Travel domain).
As for crafting feats, if your primary idea is distributing anti-undead measures to as much folks as possible, potion route is better way, because it will cover folks who don't have UMD, and it could allow you RP options to supply NPCs (local militias/defense forces) too.
Craft wand is good for other stuff, primarily for death ward wands that would make you quite popular fast if you start advertising your services (wand crafting clerics are kinda rare).

Remal wrote:

Well, you have 6 levels of fighter there (unless that fighter level at 20th is a typo, and seeing you didn't count for feat at 6th fighter level, probably is).
While I must warn you I never played melee clerics myself, this is my experience from observing others.
Divine shield/might are pretty much a must for a melee cleric, from what I saw IG. Only optimal solution is to drop exotic weapon, but you probably want to keep using deity's favoured weapon. On the other hand, if your primary concern is to fight undead, then imp. crit shouldn't be high on the list of priorities (at least RP wise). Melee clerics are really feat tight, and trying to fit in anything not related to direct combat efficiency is a nightmare.
If your choice is set between Divine Shield and Might, my gut reaction would be to drop Might. You should be able to buff your damage enough with spells and EWS would provide fine constant damage bonus. What clerics basically lack is way to boost AC, Divine Shield is only decent way they can do that (and Haste from Travel domain).
As for crafting feats, if your primary idea is distributing anti-undead measures to as much folks as possible, potion route is better way, because it will cover folks who don't have UMD, and it could allow you RP options to supply NPCs (local militias/defense forces) too.
Craft wand is good for other stuff, primarily for death ward wands that would make you quite popular fast if you start advertising your services (wand crafting clerics are kinda rare).

The crux of the matter is ~if~ I have to drop a feat from the listed build for a crafting feat which is the most disposable.

I have asked in the general questions thread about which crafting feat would be needed to imbue the Cleric Domain version of Bless Weapon, as brew potion is for up to lvl 3 spells and craft wand for higher level spells.

However on discussing it further with a DM in game and my fellow adventures at the time and now wondering if I could leave the build as it is and request some sort of DC item in the future that will allow me greater use of the Bless Weapon spell some how. Maybe a gizmo to allows so many uses per day or what have you.

I agree with Remal. Drop Improved Critical, take Craft Wand. It's a worthy trade.

So, I'm trying to pull myself back into Amia(it's a slow process), and I've built(at least, tried) a Ranger/Assassin build. But I have a few questions before I do anything with it:

- Is it better to focus on 2 weapons(one melee and one ranged) or only one of the two?
- I'm not adverse to adding other classes into it. If I were to, which ones would be good?

It's a Dex-based build, so the first question is for a bow and a rapier/shortsword or only the bow.
The second, I just want some advice. I'm willing to consider anything, really.

Right now, I have it as 21 Ranger / 9 Assassin.

If you want to go ranger/assassin, you're best off going with something like: 10/20 Ranger/Assassin or 27/3 or 29/1 Ranger/Assassin.

For the focus question, depends on whether or not you're going ranger heavy or assassin heavy.
Feats you'll want (pre epic) are: Finesse, Focus, IMPR Crit, KD, IKD, Blind Fight, Freebie. Freebie is extend spell for the ranger variant. Can be weapon focus bow for the assassin variant.

For other classes, 10/1/19 Ranger/Fighter/Assassin gets you 2 bonus feats, 25/4/1 Ranger/Fighter/Assassin gets you EWS. Could also go 5/7/18 Ranger/SD/Assassin for HIPS goodies, or 5/19/6 Ranger/Assassin/DC for extra saves and feats.

Thanks a bunch Kobra! As it stands, I have a few questions regarding some things you said:

- Should I choose to go with the bow, what replacement feats should I go with instead of KD + IKD (and Finesse I suppose)? Or are they still a necessity?
- With the R/A/DC build - How many DC levels pre-21?
- With the R/SD/A build - How many SD levels pre-21?

I'm not solidly set on anything just yet, I'm just asking so I can check it out in a module.

1 If you want the bow then you'll want point blank shot, rapid shot and instead of knockdown perhaps called shot since it'll allow you to lower an enemy's dex (and thus ac) and movement speed (both of which stack), letting you kite them. (Knockdown would give you -4 AB towards prone targets with a bow).

2 You will have to take either 5 or 6, probably 5, to let you take a bonus epic feat at 29/30, since you'll need 10 non assassin levels at level 20.

3 Probably have to take 6 Sd and 4 Ranger pre epic in order to make it fit, though that combination will result in less than 16 BAB.

Awesome! Thanks a bunch!

In my opinion, since Assassins get Tumble and Use Magic Device, you would probably be best off going with 10 Ranger - 1 Fighter - 19 Assassin as suggested, be sure to pick up the bonus feats on assassin levels 14 and 18 in order to obtain epic dodge.

CratzBlade113 wrote:

- With the R/A/DC build - How many DC levels pre-21?
- With the R/SD/A build - How many SD levels pre-21?

Well, for the first, you want to go 5/10/5 pre-epic. Also gets you 2 bonus feats. You want the 6th in epic for the epic bonus feat.
Also, with the extra 2 pre-epic feats, you can take:
Finesse, Focus Melee, IMPR Crit, Blind Fight, KD, IKD, Focus Ranged, Pt Blank Shot, Rapid Shot or Rapid Reload(For crossbow)
So you can have your cake and eat it too.

Next, for the SD variant, you want to go 5/7/8 pre-epic so you get the 16 BAB. You can alternatively go 6/6/8, for a bunch of minor changes. Up to you which you take. You'll want 10 assassin levels in epic with this combo.
It's more feat tight though:
Dodge, Mobility, Finesse, Blind Fight, KD, IKD, Weapon Focus Melee, (IMPR Crit if human)
OR
Dodge, Mobility, Finesse, Blind Fight, Weapon Focus Ranged, Pt Blank Shot, Rapid Shot or Rapid Reload, Extra if Human

The bow on the SD variant can be a more useful primary weapon since you can HIPS away if you're getting closed in on.

Hey Folks! Was hoping you all could help me with a build idea I have had for a long while now. I'm not very good at builds so will need all the help I can get. Probably A thru Z

So here it goes...

Ranger 9
Druid 16
Master scout 5

Was going for an archer duel Rapier wielder with Mother earth at there back.

Moon Elf

Ability scores???
Str 8
dex 10
Con 6
Wis 18
Int 12
Chr 16 (Cuz shes purty and friendly)

Low str dex and con I figured can be helped out by gear, shes not melee and not striving for epic dodge, over or dev crit.

Its a Rp build, my version of the complete outdoors man but was hoping for any insight that would help the build out.

Feats I plan on taking, point blank shot, rapid shot, wf longbow, imp crit long bow, skill focus spot and listen, zen archery. And thats about as for as i have gotten, not sure what feats complement druid. Any help would be most welcome

This could just be me, but if you're going for an RP build of a ranger with 6 con, I think they'd get winded by running very easily, as well as get sick a lot.

"Constitution represents the health and stamina of a character." - Taken from NWN wiki.

If that was intended, sorry. I just thought that might want to be noted.

The build has nothing fun. 24 Druid 5 Master Scout 1 Ranger. Your life is much happier.

Alright, got an awesome idea for a Pale Master character, but I need some help with the build. Thoughts?

>.> Any guidelines?

Eh, my idea is more in what I will DO with the character and his backstory than in his build. Buildwise, I want him to be a powerful necromancer, but I also want him to seriously be able to hold his own. I considered doing a straight Wizard or a Cleric character, but Pale Master fits my ideas better for being somewhat survivable in day-to-day, probably getting hunted just for his looks and very much over being tied down to one god.

So the build option is flexible, but help with making it a powerhouse is definitely wanted. OOC I'd love a Winterwight, but it's not mandatory.

Last edited by Aeqvinox on Sun, Jul 07 2013, 14:13 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Okay. Tough, Necro focus, Winterwight. Race?

It's going to be Wiz10/PM19/*1 or Wiz13/PM16/*1

9 to 10 pre-epic feats, 6 to 8 epic feats. Lots to build with. AC-wise it's going to be amazing, you could even possibly push it with Auto Still 3 if you want, otherwise regular AC sources should give you 10+10+6+2+20+10 *(+6-9, +6-8)... like 70/72 AC minimum, 5 more with Auto Still.

The third class? That's a choice. You can take rogue or bard for the skillset, ranger for the feat and some skills. Or even monk for a total of 6 attacks per round with monky weapons, and tumble, though the AB is not going to be stellar with 10/12 Wiz levels, as Tenser is going to be only +5/6 AB. You could end up with something like 42 AB on Tenser probably, without cutting too much into INT.

Don't need to be a palemaster to be a necromancer. A 30 wizard/Sorc is equally fitting.

Regarding this - "The monastery of the frozen hand.
Do you folks know any cool and fun monkbuilds you can use which involves Quarterstaff? It is new ground for me to make a Monk with a weapon other then Kamas.

Just scroll up this page mate, there's some talk about STR monks here that might help you get the basics figured out. And don't count on people giving you ready builds of this kind, because STR QS monks are a new thing and there are no "common best" builds like ftr/wm/rogue for this yet. I know i won't give you one, i'm still scared this UBAB QS is going to be nerfed back, honestly, because there are some stupid builds possible.

I'm thinking 20/5/5 (Monk, WM, Fighter) could pull out pretty good. You'll loose the extra crit modifier, but gain Glowing eyes (Which is cool) and Epic Weapon specialization. (Or 18/7/5 monk/WM/Fighter)

Going STR Monk with A quarterstaff is no doubt insanely fun but how do you feel about a dexterous version?

Nice. Is so many PM levels going to damage my casting?

Yes. Horrendously.

A Pm almost does no damage at al Spellwise. It's spell durations are horrible, too. The only school that benefits from palemastery is Necromancy, i THINK.
And only in DC calculations. Not in damage @ level or duration.

Yeah. For non-necromancy spells, which is most of your utility/hunting stuff (mass haste, greater magic weapon, etc). Your attack spells should be fine (Wail, Wilting, etc). With extend spell most of it isn't too bad, but you won't be able to hunt with the same efficiency as proper mages.

DC calculations aren't affected by caster level. The increase on caster level will affect the damage of Wilting and the number of targets affected by Wail (that limit will only come up if you're fighting a million rats, though).

>.> Arcane casters are not all about Mass Haste and Sheath durations, or the number of dice on your Ice Storm etc.

Pale Master gets four things as a tradeoff for reduced spellcasting ability - flat +10 AC, a powerful summon, a high DC touch attack and immunities.

The single biggest tradeoff is your regular wiz CL, which is not the end of the world yet. What it primarily hits, is your dispel checks - you're easy to Dispel, you can't Dispel (though you can still Breach). A lot of your spells are weaker, but there's also a bunch of spells that remain mostly unaffected: IGMS, Bigby's, Time Stop, Thunderclap... the list goes on. Your SR penetration also is not the greatest, on non-necro spells, but again - not the end of the world. You have Mords, you have spells that don't check for SR, and you have PM goodies.

It's a choice, PM definitely gets strong enough things so that you can't just say outright that PM's are mechanically inferior to full wiz/sorc.

Well... at this point I'm leaning towards the 13 PM option in order to get as many wizard levels as possible, but, whether I do or don't, what spell selection would you recommend? Also, why go over 10 levels in Pale Master? Would you say the extra +2 to AC is enough to justify?

Generally the breakpoints for PM are 15 (1 epic spell), 16 (up to 3 epic spells), 10 (Crit Immunity), 9 (Winterwight), 4 (Greater Mummy, +4 AC).

13 is a weird place to stop with PM, to answer your question: you need either 21 wiz/sorc levels, or 15 PM levels to qualify for epic spells, so with PM 16 you can get up to 3 of those (as it's a bonus feat). In case of 10wiz/19pm/1* you get one more epic feat than PM 16, and +3 to your Graft DC's.

Very_Svensk wrote:

It's spell durations are horrible, too. The only school that benefits from palemastery is Necromancy, i THINK.
And only in DC calculations. Not in damage @ level or duration.

That's incorrect. Palemasters get full scaling for all Necromancy spells.

Ah. So it's for the Epic Spell slots.

Cool. Sorry, never had an epic level caster so I keep not taking Epic Spells into account.

Okay, so 16 or 9 is sounding good, I've heard the Winterwight is awesome.

What are the benefits of taking Necromancy as a School focus? I'm probably going to take it simply for RP reasons, but I want to know the pros and cons.

It's very important. Increases your save DCs. With Greater and Epic spell focus, your Wail save DC gets close to 40.

Alright. What if I were to take Specialist Transmutation and then took up the relevant feats for Necromancy? Can I do that and expect a high DC?

If you're not sure how DCs work for spells, you should probably read this first for a basic overview on how it works.

39 DC is the typical standard for a level 9 spell on an epic caster.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

39 DC is the typical standard for a level 9 spell on an epic caster.

Hmmm... No? According to math:
DC = 10 + spell level + ability modifier + feat modifier.
40 is MAX with Greater Spell Focus, so 39 is not common I believe.

Actually when I need to resist spells they are usually around 34.

10+9+14+6 =39? With 26 base int buffed to 38, that's standard. That's with Epic Focus, though.

Anyway, Specialising doesn't affect spell DCs at all, and aside from flavour (which shouldn't be ignored) the biggest thing it affects is banned school. Banned conj sucks, but not as much as banned div, when it comes to spell research. There's a reason all mages in 3.5 can't forbid Divination.

I don't know where you're getting your maths from.

10 + spell level (9 in this example), + 14 (38 is typical caster ability), + 6 (epic spell focus) =

39.

edit: ninja'd.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

6 (epic spell focus) =

Does every mage walks with epic spell focus in every school, making it common?

Laiquendi Ohtar wrote:

PaladinOfSune wrote:

39 DC is the typical standard for a level 9 spell on an epic caster.

Hmmm... No? According to math:
DC = 10 + spell level + ability modifier + feat modifier.
40 is MAX with Greater Spell Focus, so 39 is not common I believe.

Actually when I need to resist spells they are usually around 34.

You're wrong. 43 is the highest dc you can get on level 9 spell, on this server. The build is shitty, but it is possible.
40-41 dc is easy to get, so is 42 if you have a +2 race.

Laiquendi Ohtar wrote:

PaladinOfSune wrote:

6 (epic spell focus) =

Does every mage walks with epic spell focus in every school, making it common?

Of course they do.

Speaking of epic spell foci... What epic spells should I go for, if I don't have a focus that buffs mummy dust? I'm thinking Ruin and Mage Armor, but I'm not used to playing a mage so I thought I might ask.

Is it possible to make custom epic spells? I pushed the build around a bit to get two epic spells, since it just seems like a magic focused character should have them; But I'm honestly not sold on them.

It's possible, but don't expect it to be as easy as a 'standard' custom spell.

What are people's thoughts on using Still Spell and wearing armour as a wizard? Is it worth it given the options in robes? If so, how high should I make my dex?

You can get chain shirt with no arcane spell failure. There were half plates before, but were removed (or just hidden somewhere?). Considering you can get +3 dex boots, and with maximized Cat's grace spell you can pretty much reach +4 max dex bonus of the chain shirt easily.
There is wide selection of robes, from archmagi ones to monk ones (I believe pure +5 robes don't require UMD, and allow you two more slots for mythaling).

I would go so far as to claim that it is better to take epic spell focuses, rather then greater ruin and hellball. Because you suddenly have 15-20 more spells that sre actually useful instead of two one time use spells.

Don't you agree?

So you're saying a 10 on dex is fine, don't worry about anything higher?

I can easily get up to 15 dex in my build as it stands, or I can trade that in for higher strength/capacity or con/HP.

Theander wrote:

So you're saying a 10 on dex is fine, don't worry about anything higher?

I see no point in rising it higher, those points are really better spent in int or con. Or strength, if you are going spell blade, or just need more weight capacity.

@Casvenx:
Epic Mage Armor is IMHO a must, considering it's undispellable and saves you some of gear slots. Mummy dust makes your life easier too.
Hellball isn't really that impressive, never found any practical use for it, since it can't even put a serious dent in any epic level spawn.
Ruin is bit more useful due to concentrated damage, but again, only in cases when you are out of juice and that bugger is almost dead and really has to go down.
Dragon Knight is just too large (gets stuck in lots of places) and useless if you don't have corresponding epic focus. Might be useful in PvP, but only if you have time to buff him/survive till he appears and is enemy dumb enough not to have mind blank up when fighting a mage.

If you get 16 dex you can get 28 fully buffed. Thats a +9 modifier.
Fullplate is 8+1 dex ac.

Aka. If you get 16 de, you will have as much ac as a fullplate mage!

Ryriska, amaarices pc, has 16 and runs on 60-65 ac

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