Elle pretty much summed it up why I quit.

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I'm done. Goodbye.

It is something based on ic, not dm favoritism or that they regognize the character. The success a side has regarding plots depends a great deal on their ability to dictate the terms. When a plot starts each group immediately tries to gain as much information as possible, and then cut the other side off from gaining it. That way the first group can continue to learn more while the others are always a step or more behind. The more you learn what the other side knows the better you can plan, and if the other side knows more it will help you catch up. That is why it is so dangerous for a group to have leaks of information. In some plots it can even lead to an in game disaster if something slips. If Ulrik or Robert leaked all the information they have, Kohlingen would be in a very bad place.

Groups that are successful and have common goals tend to stay together, and then only bring in characters who they can trust with the information and who will not carelessly use it. These characters must first earn the trust of the group. Another way is that the group has to trust the character because they need him. Yet another way is for a character to gain a station within a faction that he must be worked with.

Ulrik and Robert for instance did not trust one another for a very long time, but actually were very much interrested in undermining the other's influence and making sure the other learns as little as possible. At one point they realized that they needed the expertise, the influence and information of one another. So they put their differences asside, and from that formed the relationship that has actually brought them to grudingly like and trust one another, even if not completly. Now if Robert or Ulrik gain information regarding a plot that requires their attention, they tend to share it with one another, as well as the group they primarily work with. The more reliable the group becomes, the more reliable members you have that have influence, and the better the network of information the stronger it will become.

Once a group gains a positive reputation it also usually has people come to it for help. That is why such prominent characters tend to be stuck in so much rp and meetings when they log in. Through those meetings they gain more information and hence get access to more plots.

Robert's breakthrough was the Cordor Plot. I met with every character that was involved in it to search for information, and when they mentioned someone I did not yet talk to I sought them out. He made himself known to prominent characters to build relations with them. After two months of digging through all Robert could get his hands on he began speaking to the exiled cordorian nobility (writing a lot of PMs to Yoss). He made a favorable impression, became a trusted friend to them and finally gained the influence through them and Yaston that Ulrik and Co needed to work with him.

Thats great and dandy, Pony. But so few have those break throughs with the in groups. Its incredibly difficult to win in those situations. And the game loses its fun when people have to put more work into just trying to rp and breaking in, than they do in their day to day lives. It loses its appeal when players and their characters make it impossible. Or near impossible.

Also, another reason i think it makes it more difficult and discourages people because some come to play a game. Not expecting to find the rp easy but perhaps not so difficult in the tasks. Some lack the intelligence needed to think on that level to figure out what needs to be done to get to the next step in the great plots. Im not insulting anyone here, Im just saying some might not have the higher level of thinking that many plots require when you are trying to get on the ins of things.

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I've been close to quitting Amia a few times these past few months, and not because of lack of RP or the cliques people are bringing up. For me it's the loss of motivation and the lack of will to sometimes not even bother with things on the server, which stems from personal reasons that involve Amia, it's storyline and how it feels stale and one-sided. I know a few players who I have RPed with for the last two years roughly of my time on Amia have either gone off the grid or just washed their hands completely of Amia due to lack of motivation and/or lack of satisfaction with it's storyline, which makes the situation worse.

This is only my opinion and my thoughts on why people could possibly be leaving the server, nothing more.

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This. Very much. Though I think there are plenty of reasons other than intellectual level that can prevent getting into things.

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I would also challenge -any- player to look at a few of the REALLY BIG plots lately, and even most of the small ones, and look, really look, at the characters involved. You -will- see that a lot of them are exactly the same, I'm gonna go with a good 85-90%. If it's not the same characters, it's the same players. When that many people are already involved in the BIG plots, there just isn't room for new people, and whether it's intended or not, it's communicated to us as "Sorry, you aren't important enough".

That is -incredibly- disheartening to the "lesser" players. That is the kind of thing, whether you intend it or not, that leaves players frustrated, angry, and yes, jealous. Yes, this is a game, and that's all well and good, but we play a game to have fun, and so many of us simply aren't, because others' fun, in our eyes, seems to take precedence. I'm not saying that to be rude. I am saying what I see, and what I have been saying for almost five years now, and it's what I am echoed to time and again by bitter, angry players who desperately wanted to have fun and BE SOMETHING IMPORTANT for once, and who were denied. Because...let's face it. We come here to be what we aren't. I come here to be beautiful and elfin, because I look roughly like a sumo wrestler in real life.

I don't honestly think it's malicious, most of the time. I'm not trying to say you're all dicks and you never let anyone have any fun, I'm really not. I do think that in the interest of your RP, it can be all-consuming, and you may not even KNOW that John Q. Public over here is even trying to get involved, whether it's because his timezone sucks, or your timezone sucks, or he's new to this and doesn't know how to get involved, or this is just something he really wants but isn't sure how to go about it. I know I've done that with my characters in the past, and had absolutely no intention to hurt anyone, but did anyway.

But the longer people in power, be it DMs or the Power Players, keep covering their eyes and saying "Nope, nope, that doesn't happen," the longer it's going to -keep happening- and the more people are going to get jaded, and bored, and leave.

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Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

That's a lot of rationalization right there. There might be IC reasons for the same characters coming up time and time again, and they might even be good... But that doesn't change that it is for that reason people leave. Someone else commented that it's mostly new players leaving... there's one large reason for it right there, and that it's mostly new players leaving does not at all mean it's not an issue. New players on a 12 year old game with an ever dwindling playerbase are not something to be treated flippantly.

We have several rules and community standards that are in place for purely OOC reasons, and stretching to involve those new players might just need to be one of those. Making it hard to get involved does -nothing- for the server. Rationalizing reasons to work to keep players out of things does nothing for the server.

The other reason, which is also entirely ooc, but entirely untouched upon, is that those same characters that keep finding a spotlight... literally cannot lose it. Nothing effects any character without explicit player agreement. This creates an ever increasing, but never decreasing pyramid for those characters to stand on. This one directional flow simply creates and continues the situation where new players/characters have it harder and harder.

The other thing that helps the self perpetuating situation along is that half the players of those characters don't even play them if there isn't something going on that specifically can benefit them. Otherwise they leave them in the safety of off-stage, where no one can touch them. But as soon as a DM hits the shout channel with something, they log out of the characters they play at other times, and 'bring out the big guns'. Which leaves all the players/characters that were interacting and establishing relationships with the character that just logged out high and dry, while the other player is instantly in the thick of things.

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If you join factions like Barak Runedar and Kohlingen you will be involved immediately in a lot of plots and have a platform to pitch your own ideas and get involved in the story. You immediately gain access to characters who are well known from that group. Especially with the treaty of light joining those two factions is a great idea, as you get a lot of roleplay with them doing so much together. Even before Robert's 'breakthrough' I was able to participate in a lot of the plots of the Triadic Knights because he semi-joined them. Both places are very active and you can get a lot of roleplay.

But regarding the 'spotlight' I can only refer you to this topic.

Once again, P Three took the words right out of mind.

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I'm done. Goodbye.

And only having one character is great. But when your character is in the spotlight for five or six years, and then you make another character and because you're YOU and you were already in the spotlight it is by nature easier for you to get back in....

Do you see where I'm going with this?

Add to it that that "one character" may just never be retired? Spots don't open up for new characters. There is no cycling of the spotlight. And I have honestly rarely, if ever, seen anyone -but- you, Pony, in my 5 years here, retire a character who was huge, and keep them dead, yet still play. Most retire their character because they left the server.

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Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

^
This.


^
And this.

I'm not trying to accuse anyone of favouritism, but if we look back at the plots in the past and the current plots (from what I know of, which in current plots isn't all that much) we see the characters who have played important roles or "starred" as some would say. Those characters, or their players, often share a trait. And when I say often, I do not mean every time. That trait is that they've all been either close to DMs of the past or are current DMs. Now bear in mind I'm not trying to accuse DMs of favouritism, but it's natural that they know these people and their characters better, which makes it easier to draw them in, give them such roles, so to speak... Rather than unknown characters the DMs don't know and can't... maneuver? Guide? Proper word eludes me at the moment. Whether people actually believe in favouritism or not, it seems that the pattern is there, whatever the reason.

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In-Game: guano

This, once more. Cannot agree enough. Its the elephant in the room the dms refuse to acknowledge and write off as being "our imagination" because to those getting the attention there appears to be no problem.

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Imyrr - "I need your heartbeat to haunt me, your cold lips to breathe, a promise; that tomorrow I'll wake up somewhere new."

@ P Three: Eurgiga with Corinn, SkyfallingHaven with Izariel, rashid with Abdullah, Gravemaskin with Christian and The_Last_Helmite with Daegan are all relativly new characters in Kohlingen that are involved in a lot of things.

It is not that I do not agree to a good extend with you. But on one part I feel a lot of oppertunities are neglected, and on another I feel it is partly an unfair portrayl of those players as if they would be egotistical narcissists. But perhaps the best thing to ask is what would be a few things that could be done that you all feel would make it easier?

Pony forgot Tom Kolwer, a relative newcomer who was given command of a whole division in a recent major event. That's kinda neat? I mean, it could just as easily have been Robertface or that other guy.

I've been at a loss to respond to this particular part of the topic because I have no idea if I've ascended to the Amian All-Stars League or not (ie One Of Those Guys Getting All The Attention). ... I mean, I assume I'm not! I'm not that vain, geez. But I guess I end up worming my way into a lot of events (mostly because V will show up and just refuse to leave), and maybe my perspective is skewed because several RP hubs are sealed off to me. But I dunno, maybe it doesn't bother me or maybe I'm just tuning out the all-stars and only noticing the fresh up-and-comers in events lately.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

I did not mention Tom as he is not a kohl faction pc, but yes. He took the initative to put up a camp at mimir to guard the northern lands and stuck with it. He became the central character of the plot without being part of any faction.

I don't honestly think most players here are egotistical. I think people lose sight of what others feel and what's going on that isn't involved with their plot, because it's so big and takes up so much time, and because you really do lose touch with the majority when you're neck-deep in Plot.

What really, seriously -needs to happen- is that the Team needs to start hearing this, recognizing it, and working with us. Until we feel that we even have their attention, nothing is going to change. We're going to keep going "Why the fuck should I -bother- trying, when [Insert player or character names here] are already involved? I know they're not going to let me do anything." Even if they're perfectly nice people/characters/fish/whatever. And yes, I'm sorry if it seems mean, but that is what a lot of people are thinking, and when that happens, there is a problem. Like, a big flashy problem with bright blinking lights. If you have people from -other servers-, people who were "old" when -I- started, coming back to add that this is why they left, this has ceased being me, or a handful of people, making it up.

And lastly, I'm not saying it's not -POSSIBLE- to get involved. I'm saying it's a damn sight harder than: a.) it should be,and b.) most people who come here for -fun- are willing to put up with.

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Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

I get the point you're making Pony, but the fact is I ~tried~ getting involved in factions and groups. I have/had a character that was "involved" (hung around) with a group involved in a plot. And the entire time I felt that I was completely neglected. All these other characters were talking about all these things happening, and ~IC~ I would ask what's going on and be ignored.

It's ~not~ simple to get involved. Stop trying to throw it out there like "Oh, you're just not going at it hard enough."

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I'm done. Goodbye.

Perhaps you should look at the variety of players/former players that feel like this is a problem, and then how its the same very vocal people responding otherwise. Its a few very squeaky wheels and in a way this thread seems to be a lot like what is going on in the server. A rather varied group of "discontents" seeming to come to the same conclusions while a few players/dms who do get the attention are vehemently arguing otherwise.

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Imyrr - "I need your heartbeat to haunt me, your cold lips to breathe, a promise; that tomorrow I'll wake up somewhere new."

Unfortunately I can't really say if I agree or disagree. I have been a part of some events, and while they may not have been plot or game-changing, they were wonderfully entertaining events that were whimsical and spontaneous. Aside from that, I can't comment because I haven't been involved in any plot events. That doesn't mean I agree that they aren't inclusive however, I am just saying I wouldn't know, as I myself haven't actively tried to participate in larger events. My playstyle is one where I am perfectly content and satisfied with short impromptu mini events.

I did however just want to point out something that I saw on the forums that I thought you might be interested in, and those are the "Alternate Beginnings" initiative. There are two so far:
http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=72259
http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=72443
While I am not participating in either of these myself, as I'm a bit wrapped up in the two characters I am already playing, this is really intriguing and I am curious to see how this turns out. I know I haven't really addressed your original post directly, but I felt that sort of correlated to your concerns and I think demonstrates a creative and interesting way to include new and different people.

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Pretty sure I can speak for ImAfterYou in saying she's pretty happy not-here. She's found a niche she's happy in elsewhere.

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Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

I don't think it's the fault of players actually trying to keep others out of the spotlight, but I do think the situation as it is creates that by default. I also have a suggestion, though I don't know if it is actually doable.

The issue is that there are no negative repercussions. Once you power your way to 30th level that can never go, gold and items can never be taken away, nothing can ever actually happen to your character without your approval. Which creates a weird static safety bubble at the top, and make's it harder for new people to get to the top. I like the 30th level cap (40th is just to hard to balance), BUT the risks at the top should be more then at the bottom. What I would suggest is a soft cap, maybe 25th? To progress past the cap the player must agree to lose the OOC protections against loss of items, levels, xp, permadeath, and possibly more. If your not willing to risk these things, just stay at the soft cap.

Change needs to be encouraged. The opposite is a slow stagnant death.

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Okay, well here's the problem. What can DMs actually do about this? Not only would we need them to work harder to give more PCs a shot at the limelight, but they would probably also need to conjure reasons to /stop/ the already established characters from stealing the scene. You could engineer situations, maybe, but that limits what can be done, and I know DMing is hard enough as it is.

... Come to think of it, didn't they already try and address this with the whole "personal quest request" things? I guess it's not the same as rising to become a notable in a major event but some people are going to be the faster sperms regardless of whether or not they're established. It's a personality thing as well.



Oh man, I don't even know what to say. You're not entirely wrong, but believe me, THINGS HAPPEN.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

I have been reading this thread but so far refrained from posting since I did not feel I could contribute that much.
However, with the current posts about having trouble to find a way to participate in plots and groups of major players I will say this:

I picked up my cleric last year during October or so. Literally fresh of the boat I swung by Tarkuul out of chance and instantly saw players talking and signs of factions seeking members. I signed my cleric up for the Magisterium Mortis and from that point I played it out.

He worked his way into the inner workings of the group. Digging up information, being patient and content with his minor position at a first he quickly became a well informed citizen. Most of his rise to power was done with little to no interaction with the major players of the city. Only when they realised he knew things they did not know did they bother to come see him

Grim is now councillor within the city and can introduce himself with the title: Keeper of the crypts.

Yoss's thread on Less is more is a good example and I feel that starting out, you need to be humble in the position you have and not experience throwback when you do not ascend quickly enough.

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Life should be prolonged only when it serves the greater cause of the death of the world.

@ gravitas: I am not denying it, nor am I saying that you are wrong that very often the same characters play central roles in plots. I am also not saying that to work on involving more characters and players is a bad thing. It is not. It is something I would really like to see more off. But, this is not about dm favoritism or players shutting out others because they only want to play with their ooc pals. I have not seen any of that going on and I stand by my opinion that it is plain wrong. I also think some make it harder than it is. But regardless of that, I fully support that it should be made easier. I am just not sure how.



@ Casvenx: As to your suggestion, quite a few characters already face the chance of permadeath. It could be a permanent death, an extended imprisonment or anything else that could incapacitate the character for months if not permanently. That is the risk players agree to when participating in the Cordor Plot. If someone waylaid Robert and handed him over to Cordor there is a very high possibility that would occur given the stuff he has meddled in, and he is not the only one, nor would he be the first. He also wants to join a paladin order who decapitates paladins who fall. I do not think it should be exclusive to one set of characters, but I was always for harsher penalties for plots. Most of the community does not support it though. Even temporary pvp penalties turns a few players into a lynchmob, and permadeath is not something most players are fond of hearing.

That being said, there are quite a few serious reprucussions for those characters. Talk to the player of Mynna or Richard Johnsons for example. I think the characters who have the chance to really meddle in things also have the greatest chance of facing bad consequences. I will also say that I had a short lived character that I really enjoyed playing permakilled by a dm and a longlived character that I really enjoyed playing and wanted to continue playing semi-permakilled (very hard to get back, and not successful so far) by a dm. That does not include two very prestigious characters of mine who were killed off permanently by fellow players, though with my consent.

P Three (and others), I think there’s maybe a bit of wanting to have your cake and eat it too in your argument. I agree that it’s obvious that the same handful of players seem to be near the center of a lot of activity, but I don’t think that that’s necessarily as terrible a thing as you’re describing it to be.

One of the criticisms voiced elsewhere in the thread is that important plotlines should be more player-directed, that DMs should make every effort to fill a plot point with an appropriate PC, rather than inventing an NPC. (I thoroughly agree with this, btw.)

If you’re a DM, who are you going to choose, when you’re looking for a PC to fill that important plot point? You can’t really make quality of RP your sole criteria in that situation, because you’re not only looking for excellent RP: you’re looking for excellent RP *long term.* If you pull an impressive newcomer into your plot and make that character crucial to its progress, you’re basically shooting yourself in the foot if that player vanishes next week.

The characters you’re thinking of (and we all know who they are) are not just excellent RP’ers; they’re *demonstrably reliable* excellent RP’ers. They’ve been around for forever, and they can be counted on to be here next month and probably next year. That’s an absolute prerequisite for consideration as “plot-hook PC.”

In other words: the problem you’re describing may be frustrating, but eliminating it would basically mean the end of all server plots. The disappearance of a crucial PC will stagnate a plot just as surely as the disappearance of the DM.

I think you can’t really have it both ways here. If you want server plots to exist at all, you *need* to have a handful of characters who you can reliably count on to drive them.

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

Character Portraits!

Which is fine, Liz. My issue is when that handful of players/characters become the automatic go-to and are up to their necks in every-damn-thing that happens, TO THE EXCLUSION of new or other established characters. I put that in big letters because it's important. Not cruise control for cool.

And honestly, someone who's in the middle of it (No, I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm just calling it exactly as I see it) saying "I don't see it" is neither surprising nor heartening. My point is exactly that. What we're told is "I don't see it" when we are specifically told not to name names or specific instances, so we're left with "Trust us, it's there." Which...of course...sounds lame and like sour grapes. If you're in the eye of a storm, everything always feels calm. It's those of us on the -outside- that are suffering.

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Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

I'm not saying I don't see it. That would just be silly; the phenomenon you're describing is plainly obvious. What I am saying is that scaling down that situation will also inherently slow down the server plots that people elsewhere in this thread are clamoring to see sped up. The thing you're describing can't be fixed without screwing up the thing others are describing.

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

Character Portraits!

I can only go on the people I've spoken to, but what I personally have heard has never been about the plots, this is (surprisingly, given the griping we all do) the first i've heard of the plots. But it's far and away not the first I've heard of the "holy crap I want a piece of pie too".

I'm not sure there is a solution that would make all people happy, but leaving well enough alone is going to alienate -both- groups, and that's definitely no good.

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Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

Yeah... Some people really could do well to stop playing some of their characters that have been around for a long time, or at least make new characters and move their well known old ones out of the spotlight. I know this might sound extreme to some people who "just want to keep playing the character they've put years and so much RP into and have developed such stories and relationships with". But there comes a point with characters where they can get too big, and then you can in fact be harmful to RP, even your own because you are such a disruptive force that can cast a shadow over others.

During my time on Amia I've played lots of characters, mostly Drow, but three of mine were "Mains" and each held positions f power multiple times in houses, academies or just influence in the city they were in. Hell I've had characters run everything but the Temple by now, but each time I transitioned those characters out of influence and out of being "mains" when the time was right.

Most recently Zeketh'ryn was the Ul'Saruk for over two IRL years, but when the Vanguard was formed I chose not to have him continue on in that, or in fact in the new settlement because it didn't seem fair to me to not let other new characters have their time in the spotlight.

I don't mean to say that old characters with a history on the server are bad but there comes a time when every good legend bows out to let the new kids have their shot at glory and make their own legends.



On an unrelated note, I very much enjoy players and DMs working together on area and lore and really anything else that it can be done. I worked a fair bit with Nekhy (and so did a few othe players) to help make Iniquity in Edonil since it was technically a "faction area" even if an almost completely open one. And (although possibly bias) it was one of if not my favourite area on amia .

That notion just sounds utterly bizarre to me. I can't imagine just tossing aside a character I've been playing and developing and loving for three years now, just because someone else feels like it's not her turn any more. I'll retire a character when she's given an IC reason to retire.

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

Character Portraits!

Look outwards, not inwards.

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Imyrr - "I need your heartbeat to haunt me, your cold lips to breathe, a promise; that tomorrow I'll wake up somewhere new."

I have no idea what you mean by that. Elaborate?

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

Character Portraits!

Your character also isn't in a major spotlight point and making it hard for other characters who -could- shine, to do so. Our issue, as players, is when your character is so big, so superfluous, so ubiquitous, that you end up the go-to for any given issue in any place on the server.

Or when you as a player find a way to be the center star of any plot, regardless of the character you use.

Kaithan, for example, has a niche. She fills it well, but no one can honestly say "Screw it, we already have a wise priestess in Winya, there is no room for another."

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Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

I'm guessing what he's saying is that it seems you're looking at it from an "I want to do X in my own time and my own way, and I don't really care what affect it has on others" way, rather than from a sense of "This is a real problem in the server, and am I contributing to the problem or to the solution?" way.

Note the seems, I'm not saying that's what you're actually doing.

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Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

That perhaps there are others in line awaiting their "turn" but are missing out on opportunities because the server has settled on only a few "stabilities" over many possibilities. Granted I do not know your character as I've been away for some time, but given as you've spoken you consider yourself one of those being discussed here.

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Imyrr - "I need your heartbeat to haunt me, your cold lips to breathe, a promise; that tomorrow I'll wake up somewhere new."

PThree, RE your first post: Sure. But I meant, by saying what I said, that I couldn't imagine asking the players of any of those plot-hook PCs to scrap their characters for such a reason, because I imagine they feel about their characters the same way I do about mine. I don't accept "just get out of my way already so I can take what you've earned" to be a valid criticism of anybody, regardless of whether you choose to include me in that group or not.

RE the second: Well, yeah. I *do* want to play my character in my own time and my own way. I think I (and everyone else too) have that right. And I don't see that as a problem to be solved. I see it as the fundamental nature of roleplay.

Gravitas: I don't consider myself to be part of the group in question, no. But if I did someday become so, I would want it to be because I earned it myself, not because I shoved anyone else aside.

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

Character Portraits!

That's fine, but at some point, you've got to concede that if you make it so that others -cannot- rise, you are part of the problem, and not the solution, and you are essentially making it so that others are forced to sacrifice -their- fun, for yours.

No one's saying you shouldn't like your character, but in the same venue, you're still playing -with other people-, and just by virtue of wanting to be a decent human being, you should not expect them to sacrifice their fun for you if you aren't willing to sacrifice part of your fun for them. It will get really lonely around here, really quickly, if no one's willing to bend for the little guy.

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Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

Gonna take a shot at a late night ramble here. I want to start out saying remember to chill to everyone. We are all on the same side, and might I add ALL viewpoints are valid. Some folks have a hard time getting in the right place at the right time for the sparks to fly, doesn't mean they didn't try. Gods knows when the text is flying between three conversations I'll get lost or passed by looking at my keyboard with my meager typing skills. I can miss someone's attempt in my reaching for a swig of iced tea. Are there opportunities? Of course there are, look at what people do and accomplish here.

The Staff listens and they care, most of all they want to please. It's also the few against the many. They can't be all places all times. Damn that rotation of the earth! Things are pretty good for us on Amia, always room for improvement? Who would say no? And that's not a knock, you guys always try and make this place better and better.

I'd also like to say that we as players have a responsibility to the server, staff, and each other to promote and encourage our fun. Fun for them, means fun for us, fun for you and me.. I have to agree people in the spotlight need to share a bit, spread the love. Folk high up in organizations should leave a means in which to have it taken away in my opinion. I mean there is always KILL STAB STAB, but cmon. Once Barak Runedar got down to a single High Councilor and Red was given the spot, later came talk of Thane and King. No no no.. far to lofty. We've no royalty here, High Councilor will do. Then the next thing I did was to make sure everyone knew there would be periodic calls for a vote of confidence. Red's asked for two so far though one was unofficial. Tired of poor Reddok in the spotlight? There are means to do so. It's my responsibility to the other players to give that ability. Course we are talking a dwarven settlement and not a merc guild or some like that. I've been about for a couple years, took round a year to earn the position. Gods I wont be doing it for 5 years that's for sure, its like a second job sometimes.

I want to wrap up by saying that there is only so much the Staff can do in some areas. How do they enforce or promote sharing of information and face times to the characters at the head of whatever plot/event? Ultimately on most the levels in game it is up to us the players to share and involve our fellow players, not the DMs. Yes we have the IC side we must play, but there is a person behind that avatar wanting to have some fun to. They would enjoy the shine of the spotlight to my friends.

Lastly, if I ever ignore or miss your attempts IG or on the forums I beg you to PM me so I can double back and recheck, I want nothing more than to help spread the love and have fun. If I can't help you IC I'll say so, but don't let a quick afk to the fridge dash your hopes and dreams! I'm sure each of you feels near the same the way rambled on above, we still have to act though peoples. Amia player love peoples.

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fairdady..

I think it's pretty clear some people feel left out. So people can continue to have that conversation if they wish, but there's danger to people echoing the same sentiment without a counter narrative.

It should never be assumed that everyone enjoys DM plots. I will be the first person to shamelessly say I loathe them and avoid them like a plague if at all possible. I know some of the things Amarice said earlier and it must be frustrating to work hard on something for it to not get any recognition or appreciation... But I'm really not the only that wants nothing to do with DM plots if I can ever help it and I think it's important for our voices to be heard to not give a false impression that everyone wants to be involved in everything.

1) DM plots are resource intensive

For many of us, NWN is a great alternative to text RP because it has fairly minimal requirements (being 10+ years old, as repeatedly been said by Svensk and others) while giving us a visual world to interact with. While it might be fine for day-to-day interactions, having 20+ players in an area buffed up to hell with godly amount of spawn spamming AoE pretty much ensure BSoD. If not BSoD, usually character death.

2) Lots of people talking

I say this in mind that English is a second language and I have a mental disability, but lots of people talking at once is really stressful for me. After a certain number of people, I tend to get overstimulated and zone out because I just can't keep up with it. Naturally, when there is an event going on, most people do want to participate in it so the turn out rate tends to be pretty high.

3) It's not always scheduled

This is a negative in two ways. For someone like me who wants nothing to do with it, being forced into an event is really upsetting. There's been so many times I just wanted to RP with someone I just haven't seen in a while instead the world is falling apart. While the option for me to just log off or flee the area exists (And I take this option quite often), it's rare that people I wanted to talk to wants to do the same. One of the aforementioned atrocities I detailed in the beginning of the thread was unscheduled, full-frontal attack on a settlement with only five main characters of that said settlement even online at a time we were incredibly active. But hey, that determines the entire fate of a town! ... Really?

In reverse, I know a lot of times that people I know wanted to be involved in something if only they knew about it. It's one thing that we can't participate in an event because IRL happened, it's another thing we could have participated if we had some knowledge beforehand. No one has to tell me how difficult it is to arrange a time involving multiple people. But I don't think attempting to schedule something is harmful. At least then you can say you tried.

4) It goes on forever

Most of the ones I've been sucked into goes on forever and it's awful. Again, I'm more of a slice-of-life RPer over "Save the world/destroy the world" RP, but when there's a plague that affects the entire island and beyond that lasts for months and months on end, it's kind of exhausting. I understand the motivation behind wanting to have grand story arcs but as many people before me on this thread have said, if you can't finish it, it's just a long winded road to no where. Long story lines are fine. But I think there should be a safe haven for people who don't want to be involved in it.

5) DM Plots: Home of Ubermonsters

I've never been apologetic about my disgust for Amian monsters and what people on this server considers to be "balanced" and my opinion hasn't changed in the years that I've been here. One of my characters is level 30 and has 114 HP with random people in parties going, "Oh. He's not 30 yet?" One of the events I participated hit for average of 40 damage with extended crit range with x3 multiplier on creature weapon that hit for 140 damage. When we took it to the DMs about that, we were told "That's balanced" even though our party of level 30s were wiped out in 30 seconds or less. Most recent event had a cleric with 40 to reflex save with improved evasion, which means aside from rolling a 1, the enemy would be able to take reduced to no damage from Epic Spell Focused mage/cleric with absolute highest stat in that Spell school. Even if they failed the reflex, it'd be for half damage. Balanced?

This is on top of the fact that great majority of DM plots are done with level 30 as an absolute minimum level. As Zedrik pointed out, not everyone on the server is level 30. For some people, they may never get there. How fun is it to roll into an event where you get one shotted in the first 3 seconds of combat? In some DM events, you're not even allowed to be raised or respawn. In one situation, I was forced to stay dead for over 3 hours.



I know you can't please everyone and maybe I'm a minority in this. But I'm not the only one that have expressed these ideas on the forums and/or in private. If we are going to have a conversation about DM plots, let's also consider the other end of the spectrum. My purpose of this post is not to diminish the hard work the staff puts into events. This is not some reactionary post either. It's something that we've experienced repeatedly and fairly consistently. I'm just throwing it out there for you to read. What you choose to do with this information really is up to you.

EDIT: Wow. 6 people posted while I was typing this up >.>; Sorry I can't take those into consideration... I feel kinda bad because fairdaddy's post is rather cheerful.

I'm not arguing any of this. Of course long-established players should behave in such a way as to be inviting and inclusive of newbies. What I was disputing was the idea that long-established players should assign themselves some sort of arbitrary RP quota, and then retire their characters once the quota is filled. That's not asking them to "sacrifice part of their fun" for the sake of the new player. That's asking them to sacrifice *all* their fun. And it's completely unreasonable.

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

Character Portraits!

I'll try to make this as sincere and to the point as I can. I've been playing here for about six or so years, and have noticed that there is a serious relationship between a character/player permanency to the endurance of the storyline. That is to say, I have found, we don't fully own our own character without some vehicle to put them in. A vehicle the player has no ability to operate on their own. You cannot be Theseus as well as the Labyrinth, as painful as it is to remain just one person.

It is therefore an easy temptation to rely on the GM of your personal interest for any sort of arc guidance and movement. I realized the error in putting so much emphasis and coat-tugging for GM attention begets great frustration, fatigue, and lastly quitters. I am guilty of quitting some characters due to similar entrapments before. I put too much care in making moves to 'uncover' the hidden world.

I suppose in this trailblazing, to try, fight back, and meddle, I was able to make some noteworthy characters, heroes. I created for myself a setting, focus, and plan. I did not know where the plan would lead me, or did I know that I would involve many characters in doing so, but that is what happened. Incidently, the actions of these few PCs authored the hatching of a very interesting and awesome plot, one that I felt in some respect, was my story, that was started and therefore was to be ended by the few of us involved.

Little did I know how big this story was going to be. Myself and so many afterwards were discarded as more and more characters took some action in the plot, changing the outcomes that would effect the story. I never quite scratched the surface of the story again where my initial character had, but I realize now that I had spent the next couple of years chasing the plot, even on other characters, hunting just one story because I felt I needed to close the case, despite how different the story had become, despite all that was lost in translation, held as secrets by faces that were new to me. By the time I tried to re-emerge, as a new character with a new motive, it was a different game entirely. (this plot.)

Now, the whole server was playing this plot, it seemed. Seeds of distrust and intrigue pretty much became the core of -everyone's- story, as if everyone was racing to get to the same finish line as I. An entire server pulling for one particular GM's attention. I assume, because the PCs expressed such an interest in political gridlocks, corruption, and brooding warfare, the GMs mitigated themselves not necessarily anymore as individual story tellers, but more of a Bizmark-esque sectoring of the map of Amia, to, let us be honest, manage the politics.

I do not think this was ideal Amia the GM team wanted. But the conditions that are set in place, are conditions that the players
themselves expressed interest in. You set up the battlefield you later protest.

The problem is very awake to me, as is the solution. Do not get too hung up on any one plot, they are there to test your metal. You will have your chance to be a hero, and then it will be someone else's turn. Let it be. But more importantly, what we need now more than ever is (more) better story tellers. That goes for GMs as well as PCs.

For PCs: The DM Stories does not have to be your story.
Do not opt for a cookie-cutter faction hound and do not Alt yourself a box of crayons. Really try to make a character you can (or cannot)
live with, one that challenges you internally, and most importantly,
remains fun. Don't make a character because you want to be liked by the community. Flesh out your character to the best of your ability, and for godssakes, have weaknesses. Be it social, moral, or physical. Strengths are good too, but in moderation. Weave your own tale well, and the world will probably start caring about you.

For GMs: I do not think these mini-events are necessary. Why are they necessary? Make an interesting campaign instead. One that is drawn out and well written, make room for characters to inquire as they find suitable to their own stories, but don't let them walk over it. I prefer to see few rich plots than an abundance of little invasions.

Also, I don't think this DM By Region thing is working. Maybe it has always been this way, but one of the biggest facedesks I encounter is a GM telling me they cannot touch that area because it isn't there area of focus. There aren't many of you, so utilize space!

Those are my thoughts for now.

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MuseReader: Aiseth Nosdivan- Master Enchantress

I don't think anyone said you should have to retire a character ever, but a lot of people get caught up in playing their characters and forget that their is lots of opportunity out their in playing something new. Also its great to include new players and character, but I feel that it is the duty of players with characters of importance to help invigorate RP, and sometimes it gets to a point where the best way to do that is to have your character become less "impotant".

I respect that everyone deserves the right to roleplay how they feel is best, but some times you can get too attached to a character, and that can often lead to making things less fun not only for others but for yourself as well.

Kudos. Its important to remember that directors and leading roles are rarely filled by the same person.

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Imyrr - "I need your heartbeat to haunt me, your cold lips to breathe, a promise; that tomorrow I'll wake up somewhere new."

On the topic of meeting same players on most of the plots, I do have to agree. I remember often when I come to the scene the more famous characters already are there and I just think to myself: "Yeah, no point staying here, will just be one of the mass again or I won't have anything else to do than to stand there waiting if anyone bothers to give me orders." Or even if I got there basically first these famous characters take the lead and push mine out of the way, even though they tried to give objections it doesn't matter.

With my latest main chacter I really had to power my way through to get anywhere, I have been constantly bothering the DM to find out something new, anything.. Thank God for his great patience! Even though she IC:ly did found out of many events and shared information about them, she hardly received information from others on them than doing her own work. The plot she is mainly involved now, I as a player knew I need to find something that give her the power to stay there, otherwise someone will come and force her out, and there was plenty of attempts in my opinion. So she did -a lot- of research and took great amount of risks, still she was shunned even though she provided information on the matters. Heck she even received accusations on matters and sometimes, in my opinion, out of the blue even when I had RP:ied her the opposite way. Finally she got prevented to enter a city and such.

All of these were IC actions, however, when there are always same groups of people, it is very hard to get in, I still am not in anywhere even though my character basically sacrificed all she had. After this plot is over, however it ends. I know my character will have even harder time to get inside of any group and in all honesty I am quite so dishearted to even try that anymore. Don't take me as a player who can't deal with IC actions and consequences, as I've very much been rolling with the punches even though is some cases I would not have had even. The times where there suddenly someone appears without any IC explanations to a place gets me very annoyed and once I pointed this to a DM as well and the reply was: "I don't know how they got here". The DM was surprised.

My character and I as a player have learned that the less people we involve, the easier and better it is. At least it is enjoyable on some level than having to really push your way through. I tried this open way, by trying to involve as many as I could and sharing information, and it backfired so strongly that I won't be doing it again. And thank goodness my char doesn't have any IC reasons to do so either!

In the other hand, I have been ery surprised couple of times by the DM's when they have noticed what my character is about, or rather.. What she should know. "Considering you have this feat... You should at least know following." Those times really made me feel that great! And sometimes I've been so stuck with a plot that I was beating my head against a wall and the DM gave a hint... When he noticed I was stuck. So about this intelligence, weeeell.. I don't know if that is so important either, sometimes the DM's might just help you. I myself in these plots just shoot quesses and hope that one hits the spot.

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

There seems to be some perception that the DM team is unaware or refuses to accept that some players get more attention than others, when in fact, we have Dm's that are dedicated to reaching out and seeking newer players to get them involved. We understand that some players feel pushed out, and that its frustrating. And that a select few always seem to make it to the front lines.

But this problem is a little more complicated than it sounds. We're dealing with a pretty deeply rooted piece of human social interaction. But even if we remove the fact that in outside society, cliques form and 'important' individuals rise to make news (And once they're there, they don't usually leave it), its still tough.

Let's narrow this issue down to Amia, and I'll try to give you some insight of how its seen on the other side of the fence:


Let's say I want to make a plot involving a little intrigue, some action, and I want it to impact the server. Its very difficult to create server-scale consequential plots without involving major cities. And within these cities or factions are often times hierarchies of their own, some made even years ago. So let's say I'm able to initiate this plot with a newer player and his pals-- shortly after I initiate it, it'll be reported up the chain of command and the faction leaders or city officials will hear about it, and make decisions on how to act. Even if it was my intention to keep it relatively low key, or among newer players, the news of the event (Should it last any longer than a day) will inevitably reach the ears of the 'all stars'.

Now, let's not make the move to assume that these popular players are egotistical or power hungry. By purely remaining IC, we can still see that, believing the plot to be a server-influencing plot, they'll have an interest in seeing it through. In most every case, it simply wouldn't be an IC decision for a high ranking character to cast a blind eye to the happenings. I could possess an NPC and tell the character, "Let the lower ranks handle it" but that'd feel a little directed myself, and most times, I'm not going to have the chance to do it. Most of the discussions and player interactions will happen when I'm not even supervising. So what tends to happen, is that as the plot progresses and 'all stars' end up in plots, the less-involved feel as if they lost control of the plot.

What Liz mentioned about the reliability is somewhat true, but to be honest, I don't usually make an IC decision like that with OOC qualifications in mind. Though indeed, a player's OOC reliability to log in and produce good RP has a notable impact on their IC influence, does it not? Even from player to player. And I doubt highly that we (Dm's and players alike) intentionally predispose ourselves to others because of their OOC reliability. It just sort of happens! If you play with a friend, know he's going to be around and he's going to be fun to Rp with, you're most likely going to become more connected with him ICly.

And please don't take this as the DM team making excuses. For the sake of discussion, I'm trying to give you guys insight into how it looks from our end, or the struggles we face. Its the foundation we have, whether we like it or not. Its important to understand it, in order to work to change it for the better.
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My own suggestion is that when you're in a position of power-- delegate responsibility. As frequently as you can. Recruit others often, and supervise them, but allow them to succeed and fail-- and play with the careful balance of keeping yourself from failing and allowing others to enjoy influence. Not as easy as it sounds, when you think you've got the right answer (And you know you have the power to see it through). This kind of playstyle is beneficial in a lot of ways. Not only does it share the spotlight, but it will also empower your faction members and friends, and you'll have more people enjoying themselves, and more people in quantity as well.

As DM's, we need to perhaps reach out a little more during plots. Some players who are more quiet in the back might be waiting to be approached. In my own experience (More as a player than a Dm), I found that most of the delegation falls into the hands of the players themselves. A good leader PC who can delegate and involve everyone in his command is worth a ton, and can often have a larger impact on sharing the enjoyment with the players than the DM running the plot.

So I'll ask a few questions to try to dig for some of your thoughts:

What can we as DM's do to help involve more players? What can we do that a good faction leader can't? How can we let the players understand that they're valued, even if they don't interact with some of the top tiered NPC's (The Justicar won't often have a chance to speak with everyone in Kohlingen, but that doesn't mean that the people she does talk with are more important in the DM's eyes)? What's the balance between server-changing plots that often involve these 'all star' players (Purely by their positions of authority and IC connections), and deciding to run player-story plots that might not create as large a splash, but could invite newer faces?

In my experience it doesn’t take that much for a DM to transition an NPC to take over for a long-missing PC (or let the NPC get a new PC on the right track) if theplot is so dependent on that role. I’m sorry, Liz, but I really don’t see your arguement of needing “been around forever” PCs to move a plot forward as holding water. I think it sounds like a good justification, but its really not.

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Iim'mur'ss - Grandmaster Shadowdancer / Aaralyn - Diplomat / Oleander - Toxic Desert Flower

I thought I would comment on this, the vicious circle that became and is a lead driving force to my PCs development so its not just the DMs who caused this, players like me did.

Over the years monster have gotten stronger and I myself wanting to be on par or better then such try to get stronger, sad side effect one looks like power-hungry nut case who has to squeeze every last drop of power one can get out of any request for powers of items and I'm sure that just pisses off the DMs if on every request its a bunch of back and forth to get the maxed "balanced" limit.

I know we don't like specific incidents but I hope the DMs in question wont mind.
I was helping guard Minmir bridge in the "The Spider's Forest" and it was attacked by a bunch of bugs and they more or less nuked by the small army PCs with limited effort(and for the DM I'm sure that makes it feel anticlimactic) Galenson (I belive it was you at the time)I assume wished to give us a monster that's a real threat, now in this case it was a giant boss bug and was ripping people apart...its 35-40? damage a hit non-crit rampage came to dead stop when it tried to attack me,I went toe to toe with it and the DM at the time PMed me "well that's entertaining" then making it run off after a bit. so I have mixed feelings, happy that I could do what it is that I focus on doing by being a tank who can stand up to the stronger foes that threaten us IC... but also bad because I feel I degraded this big bad boss into something anticlimactic.


It's a vicious circle mixed with a fine line, if the monsters are to weak they get nuked, if they to strong they stomp everyone into the ground, then add on the fact that some players will do the most they can to win by getting stronger so in turn to give players a challenge they make them stronger, so what do you do..... I'm not sure.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

This actually is something difficult. I'm not agreeing with the premise, however, that newer folks are more prone to disappearing when put in positions of power. But I did want to say that it is often times difficult to replace PC's in power with NPC's, or vice versa.

It might not appear like it, but its a struggle. We don't want to replace a missing PC with an NPC too quickly, but we also don't want to let plots run stagnant. So a reliable player, new or old, is something that's really quite nice in a position of authority or importance in a plot.

I understand Hackums, and thanks for the insight. I really enjoyed your post regarding how things look from the other side of he veil.

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Iim'mur'ss - Grandmaster Shadowdancer / Aaralyn - Diplomat / Oleander - Toxic Desert Flower

This. Something which would really be awesome sometimes, considering the newer players usually don't have any experience in the role they suddenly are given, it would be nice to get some guidelines at least, I also understand it is an IC learning experience. My character was given leadership by IC grace of others... And weeeeelll.. She kinda messed it up by having around over half of the team dead ^_^' Aaaaakwaaaard! But at least she in the end rescued everyone.

But next time.. I doooon't think those characters are so eager to give leadership to her. Something I am fine with actually but would be nice to be able to IC learning it, but, as the things stands I doupt many are that interested to teach her. Maybe one of those famous characters could give advice when they are seeing a newbie in lead, IC:ly. Though I understand it depends a lot on characteristics and IC things.


But as well it is very hard to be in leadership position in middle of event, where actions needs to be taken.. first of all. Quick thinking and typing are important to give commands, however, without any information what is coming/going on it is hard and suddenly everything is already happening around you :/ Would be nice to actually have the time to get information what I can see, hear and then give commands. But I am not aiming this at anyone specific person, but sometimes these battle-oriented plots tend to move with speed that it is more important to be able to slash and hack. In one event I remember sending to another players "Yeah this is just hack and slash event" and the answer was that he/she agreed, as we were trying to find out IC information and everyone just ran ahead all the time. At least later on our abilities came more important.

The server doesn't really strenghten the opinion of RP-builds, which I try to make these days but at the same time I have to think how I am able to PvP or PvM. Divination for example is great school, if the DM's allow such or can take it to notion, but more often than not, divination is quite so limited. Which I understand but at the same time, I would have been fine with some IC knowledge that she could have found out and offered to the participants or stating her spell, as usual, failed or backslashed. After all that is what Diviners are supposed to do, find out information.

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm