On that we will just need to profoundly disagree. You are free to do what ClockworkRed did and start your own faction. He did so with the Triadic Knights. However, you do not have some unspoken right to try your fancy at leading an established faction.

There are characters who invested years into their factions and I well understand that a faction leader is chosen on merits to ensure the future of the faction. If your character does not fit the leadership position then there is nothing more to it. If they do not want you in their faction of posh wizards because you are a smelly goblins then there is nothing more to it. If they are a secretive bunch of harpers and hence will only involve a very select group of people, then there is nothing more to it.

Your recourse is to contribute to a faction, which given it has an established hierachy, will simply have others who might be the leader before you. Or you can start your own faction like many others did before.

There are really enough possibilities and players who will love to have you help out. I just do not see that barrier unless you play a character that does not fit in any of the existing places. If we can make it easier I am all for it. But the discussion that everyone should get a try, and we will just need to revive it if it goes horribly wrong, just is a bit much.

I think I misunderstood you, actually. What you wrote, I took as you saying that you like to train people to take over leadership positions, that's my bad. Of course you shouldn't be expected to just move aside when someone else has risen towards the top that'd be a ridiculous thing to force on you. However that does take me back to the whole "hogging" subject. Or actually, I'd like to spin it. Seeing as you do have a huge amount of experience both leading and building factions, why have you never (that I know of) turned that towards the challenge of creating an "evil" faction? Again, considering your experience, I'd think that you could provide the server with that much needed diversity, rather than adding to the already massive pool of goodguys.

Admittedly, that last part is more of a wish on my part, and I imagine that you simply have more fun with what you've done so far.

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Profiles: DakoDako & ElWacko

Characters: Currently trying my best to stick to Beridoc Brushgale

The comment was in reponse to Cratz.

I ran one evil faction a couple of years ago, and was getting the ball rolling on another a few months back. The recent one was a mix of a criminal syndicate, a mercenary house and a mercantile federation set in L'obsul. It had a very promising start, but when those I started it with left me with all the work I dropped out. I was not going to run another faction by myself.

The reason why I do not usually play evil is that I do not think the server does a good job to provide a platform for it. I do not think this is mainly something caused by the staff. I believe the members of the community who will never accept any consequences for their characters and can not lose are at fault. When they do loose, they need to get back at the other side, even if it is whining meta or shouting pvp rules were not followed.

Hence, already having experienced with the Eternal Order how agitating the ooc can be when you are the "bad guys", I really wanted to avoid having to argue, screenshot and debate while the story is forgotten. Another part is that not many evil factions really inspired me and seemed a bit two dimensional.

This^

It needs to change.

I'm going to write something emotionally charged that sort of sums up the feelings of the players of evil toons for the past at least, Ohh five years or so. Just be forewarned it -is- emotionally charged.

These issues have caused a lot of people to leave the server, or at the very least, not play any evil toons.

"When evil -finally- gets a foothold somewhere after literal months of rp work, millions of gold included...and the Goodly-Horde is allowed to immediately blow it up 2 weeks later. Thanks, what did we get for all our efforts? ..left with absolutely nothing. It's demoralizing to everyone who plays evil toons. So we just stop playing them, and the server stagnates with boredom causing people to simply log out.

Why bother. What do -we- the -players- get out of this situation? You think losing -every- time is fun? Oh sometimes we can win little skirmishes here and there with decked-out power-builds @ 5 to 1 odds. -and sure, that can be fun...(til they complain about it and try to ban the 'offender' for 'winning pvp'), then we eventually lose a faction leader and the whole thing is destroyed via OOC means. I've all but given up pvp for a long time now. It just wasn't worth the headache. People give you crap IC, and OOC. "Oh, you're that -evil- toon player, that slew other players IC" As if it was a (ooc) crime. Excuse me??? Hi. I'm a person. I'm playing a role, it's a role to play, it gives you something to do other than giggle-poke and talk about the weather or who's having a half-this-and-that-baby-freak. If that's all you want, then stay in your invulnerable fortresses of NPC-meta-all-knowing-allseeing-unless-a-dm-says-otherwise-castles. Fine, rp in your little cliche, in your own restricted group, where we then totally ignore you and don't interact with you. Enjoy the stagnation as we log out to do something else.

We feel like we can't or aren't allowed to make any meaningful progress, nothing ever stays changed in our favor.

We're tired of building up our factions, because you predictably with no degree of deviation at all, simply blow it up in our face anyway so what's the point.

We're tired of putting up with your OOC complaints when we are playing a very IC role.

We're tired of entertaining -you-, at -our- expense. It's disgusting.

We're tired of feeling like we have little to no support, or that anything that we do is automatically deemed 'bad' on an OOC level.

It requires way too much effort and heartache, to have to put up with all this- (censored)."

So for the most part, we stopped doing it. Enjoy the server -without us."

-and that's how a lot of people feel about it. -and that's a damn shame.

Whether or not you agree with it, is -completely- irrelevant, because that's how some players are feeling about it.
It's a system-wide problem and it's costing the server some damn good roleplayers.
In addition to a serious lack of conflict rp.

I myself have felt much of the above at one point in time or another, the main reason(s) behind what's been causing my multi-month absences off and on over the years. I just got too frustrated and lost the will to log in. As players in a community, and to some of you serving as DM's, it should be your job, your mission, to make that 'Log Out' button look less appealing for your fellow players. I hope that you take, what I took the time and effort to write, under consideration.


p.s. As of now, I know, and am currently chatting with a few people, who are on the fence and are currently considering leaving. (I also have access to some people who 'have' left that I maintained contact with.) -but I need to give them reasons to be here. Signs of improving conditions. I need to be able to give them something to really hope for. You can't give them a 'come back' speech, when nothing has really changed.

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When good wins the day, and evil is destroyed, then the movie is over ...and you do something else.

Let's make it, not over.

On that note, Pony, how do you propose we stop the trigger-happy Good culture? One of my main issues of playing my Chromatic is that I need to avoid basically every major road as a Silver Knight will can come along, many levels above me and smashes my face in with the sole RP reason of Kohlingen's history. No prominent Evil city on the main island (Tarkuul is a hub off the island IIRC) thanks to the destruction of things like the Black Flag and even Sanctuary of Sin. Unless you're a covert Evil PC, most of your time on Amia island is spent being hassled by others.

The amount of effort, time and OOC troubleshooting to make a half-decent Evil faction who can actually be evil and not "Let's just simply kill everyone" is a lot of trouble that most think is effortless. Because of the dissolving of many evil factions, any that decide to rise and form don't last long thanks to smite-on-sight mentality of any good faction.

Not to say that good factions should just sit and let evil factions summon a demon who can slay a thousand men in minutes, but evil RP is obviously stunted by the sheer outnumbered forces between the two. One issue is most people's "Mains", even though they may have PCs in an evil faction, will more than likely side with their Main who is the good attacking force than bother to defend the evil faction.

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It begins with not labeling them "trigger-happy good guys" and not focusing the problem only on them. It starts with approaching the situation with some objectivity and empathy. I play an (argueably) good character and I agree with many who play evil characters. The discussion should be on one side how we can create meaningful conflict roleplay, and on the other how we can give evil factions their place on the server.

I do not agree that playing a chromatic should be easy. You are quite clearly something perceived to be evil, a freak and monster. You should be confronted by angry mobs and knights. When I play a character like that the most dissapointing part for me is when other characters discount the monster aspect and would love to drink tea with him.

I said in previous topics I did not agree with how the criminal south cordor aspect was handled. I always thought it would have been a better choice to place a dm in charge of cordor south who runs the npc criminal boss. He could make sure the other criminals do not cross certain lines as to make it necessary for the guard to call in help to organize the elimination of the criminal underworld. He could also provide plots and organize roleplay with the DM who oversees the other parts of Cordor.

I think Cordor lost a great oppertunity then and there. Cities like Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter and Anklatha are many things. Cordor should be the big city that has them too. From mercantile, criminal, religious, political, adventuring, mercenary, arcane and every other type of such roleplay, including good and evil. I would like to see Cordor be the one hub with the most dm and player attention. I am not sure where palemasters in robes made of baby skin fit in there though.

As to an evil city or obvious evil, the problem arises as soon as you cross a certain line. No city will ignore a growing threat against it's government and people. The smartest thing the good guys can do is ally themselves with like minded settlements to overwhelm you. That is what happened to the Banites in Guldorand and to Wyrmhold.

I actually believe that Ostland is a good place to start however. Take every first born as a hostage in case the good guys would be inclined to act. Make sure you build something instead of murdering the people of those who already want you dead. Once the cost is too high for them to act against you, then you can start harrassing them a bit. If there is resistance from your oppressed people, simply execute every tenth person of the town as the romans did when people rebelled.

I also still stand by my proposal to add mechanical consequences to pvp losses so that it can start to be handled more appropriately.

Here's my understanding from this:


So evil needs a platform, and the good guys need a reason to not just immediately curb-stomp evil outright. Something that makes the goodly-hoard stop swinging their swords for a minute, and play politics. Roleplay outside of "Leave or die". That means they need to not have insta-assured victory, that means there needs to be reasons to give them pause. It means evil needs to be in the form of a formidable opponent that isn't squashed instantly like a pathetic bug. It means there's consequences for poking the bee's-nest, and that war shouldn't be a favorable state of being for cities or factions. War should be generally undesirable, unless the reasons for it far outweigh the risks. It should be costly, and mean something, with actual threat of retaliation. Backlash and consequence is missing. There should be IC consequences for their IC actions, that then will give them pause.

They want to raise soldiers and an army to attack other people? Pay up the salaries to pay for all those soldiers. They want to take the risk of having their place damaged? Then they'll have to foot the bill to repair the harm done. They're going to put other people's lives at risk to accomplish something, or potentially have their people captured and interrogated? Then ya need a reason, cause that's a risk. Showing up to a major event in a mob-like hoard? There should be some risk, and danger involved with being apart of that hoard. That horde is a huge target for enemy forces, it should be -dangerous-. The mob should not always win, it's too predictable, and too boring. They should have challenges, and set-backs, and risks. It should be -challenging- not a walk-in-the-park-where's-my-dc-on-your-way-then event. It should be "Wow, something reaalllly bad could happen, this is exciting!"

No sense of danger? No sense of consequence? Then there's little to no fun. -and no reason for them not to be smite-happy. *Yawn*

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When good wins the day, and evil is destroyed, then the movie is over ...and you do something else.

Let's make it, not over.

They should absolutely smash your face in, but on the flipside, you should absolutely eat their intestines(/do somthing gruesome), too! One problem there is that, in the past some people went over-the-top with their evil, apparently, and now Evil has to let Good go when Good doesn't want to die. That's part over the "over-protective" mother thing I mentioned earlier about Amia. I've honestly gotten more grief from goodies who I told to child with the triggerfingers and add some RP to the mix, than I have from badguys, perhaps because there are so few badguys left that they don't even want to bother taking the chance. The PvP-tool I'm fine with, the fact that people in the past ruined PvP by forcing absolutely sucky rules to be added, yeah, that sucks my low hanging fruit (excuse my french).

In other words, if Good is expected to do good, when will Evil be allowed to do evil?



Yes please. And with that addet added, please take a look at those extremely OOC PvP rules.

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Profiles: DakoDako & ElWacko

Characters: Currently trying my best to stick to Beridoc Brushgale

I 100% agree with that and hell, I've enjoyed the "Stealth" element of my Chromatic. But as Dako says:



I can get smashed in the face by a Metallic and that's a legitimate clause for a fight and I'd not really have an issue, but I can tell that if I smashed a Metallic to dead for the sole reason of having the Metallic skin I'd receive many angry PMs at that. It goes for other races too, why wouldn't a Gnome slaughter a Kobold on sight and why wouldn't vice versa? How do you create some concrete conflict that doesn't end up in in griefing and OOC levels of self-justified PvP.

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It goes both ways. You must give them an out. To the evil bloke, and to the good.

I waved the rules myself. If you want to stab Robert you are free to do so, as long as you check if I am not afk and you hostile me. I did so because I think they are stupid.

And that's what I hope can come out of this. I've had a new player feel worried that they'd be ganked by a level 30 because they'd been told to attack said new player. Even after I told them that you can say OOCly you can say no to PvP, they replied "What's to stop them attacking me anyway?".

My hope is that, in Good vs Evil, mutual respect is given so neither one simply gets destroyed without even a chance to turn it back. I'd love to see Evil return because it'd give Good players something that isn't just DM-controlled NPCs or even one PC among several NPCs (Shekat fight) to fight against.

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By telling players to stop their bitching and accept that, while this certainly isn't a PvP server, the setting is not that of peaceful suburbia where we shake our fists at one another. If you're the epitome of Good, you're a target based solely on that. If you're a chromatic disciple, you should be ended for that alone.

Yes, RP server, so play it out properly, but let's not stay a passive, no-RP server because of people bitching about losing PvP, it's so very unbecoming.



It might just be me, but it seems that Good takes way more advantage of this than Evil. Just a gut feeling based on experience from when I had a longer time of activity.



Where can I do that?

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Profiles: DakoDako & ElWacko

Characters: Currently trying my best to stick to Beridoc Brushgale

http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=49569&hilit=

Here you are. It is a gentlemens agreement.

I understand that there are specific issues to "good vs. evil" conflict that many feel need to be hashed out and discussed, but I would like to politely remind everyone that such discussion is not in the scope of this thread. This thread is meant to provide individual perspectives on the issue of overall server identity, not to try to solve any one particular problem or another. The hope is that by seeing the different perspectives on what makes Amia what it is today, we can all collectively consider what we want Amia to be in the future. But this is not the place for discussion so much as contemplation.

This seems to be a common belief in regards to playing evil characters in general, although I personally both agree and disagree with it, sure in good aligned places you shouldn't expect an easy time of things but in evil and neutral places that really shouldn't hold true. If you are a paladin though trying to go through evil place you should expect the same hard time.

The problem is that there isn't much in terms of evil or neutral places especially not compared to the size and scope of the goodly ones, which honestly sucks, I mean even beyond just the fact that not having those places sucks in its own right it also makes playing evil feel that much more daunting because you don't get the feeling of there being other evil really around even if they are only town NPCs or whatever.

There not being any evil cities or town much around also means that what are all DM events goingto be about? Certainly not a gold dragon and paladin military group marching in to attack evil city and how you need to defeat them.
Nope its all going to be liches and red dragon and demons. And when the DMs are already playing evil and with obviously far more support for that evil plot then almost any evil groups ever actually get then really what incentive is there to want to try and push forward with your evil character and plans when youMll likely just get taken out by all the good adventurers and/or play second fiddle as DMs play the BBEG themselves?

Basically as always I really would like to see more DMs working with players or evil characters and evil factions to help build them up and create more conflict and enjoyment for both good and evil characters.

Also it really is a quite important part of indentifying server indentity as clearly many people seem to feel that amia is or has become a "GOOD" server in terms of what it means to play on it.

Don't get me wrong, if people see that as part of the overall issue of server identity, that's fine and I invite them to post about it constructively. But identifying a problem is different than discussing it back and forth. This thread was made purely for statements, not discussions. That's what I was getting at.

If you think about it from a TV show perspective, the reason why villlains can exist is because the good guys haven't met them yet or haven't got around to whomping them yet, or because they're so numerous and badass that they can suffer horrific losses. Most of them are completely disposable as far as the plot is concerned.

This doesn't work in NWN and more specifically in Amia where the villains have none of the usual advantages. So if you feel that playing an evil character is pointless I can't blame you and I also don't have any advice other than stay silent, stay hidden, and stay alive.

Myself and a couple others recently returned to Amia after about a year and a half. Before that I only played for about three or four months. We came back, convinced three of our friends to sign up and together we'd create an evil cult and see if we could achieve power and riches with our wits alone, and try to do it without having to murder everyone. About a week after we made our own little evil adventuring party we saw the kohlingen crew on the march. I'm not big on PvP, but these guys were on the warpath. They knew everything, had their tactics and a plan all set out. I do not stand a chance against people like that. I pretty much went straight back to what I did the first time I signed up, which was to turn into a voyeur. Watching other people roleplaying. So close, but can't touch.

Mostly the only things I can do is to join up with random hunters and stab monsters in their squishy bits, or hang around towns listening in to other people's stories that have just gained so much inertia that anything I can add seems pretty damn insignificant. I'm half convinced that the Arcanum (who I think are a bunch of evil wizards that almost destroyed the world the other night, but I couldn't get any details) can only be seen by about three people who have all been on the server for about four years. They're really big villains, they almost destroyed the whole world! And unless I know the right people who are involved with the right plot there is no way I'd know they exist except maybe by trawling through the forums which aren't really organised in any way. And that's probably metagaming so I won't.

Okay, don't get me wrong here. I played a little part, set fire to a tavern and that was pretty cool. That's what I did and I had fun and it'll kill me to keep up with this entire plot due to timezones so I don't have that much intention of sticking my head into anyone's business for much longer. But this sounds like a really cool story and I had no idea it had been happening. Compare this to player based evils like those slavers who were around before I left the server a year or so ago. There was only about ten of them but everywhere you went you heard people talking about them, and I was genuinely afraid that one day they might pop out and nab me. And I liked having that little bit of tension that came with the uncertainty; murderous drow could spring out of the shadows at any moment. It was bringing in the whole community in a way that wasn't "let's go run to where the shouts are coming from and get a dream coin". It was just people doing stuff together, even if it was two different sides duking it out. And even if it was just being a little bit more nervous when I walk out of bendir dale it made a huge difference to my experience.

It was a bunch of people doing stuff together, instead of a bunch of people hoping the DMs would do stuff to them: Back then, even if I was too nervous to approach those who have their roots in the community, I was involved passively just by hearing them talk about something universal that effected everyone. There's still bad guys around, sure. But now even if there are terrifyingly evil people around, all I have to do is run to the nearest paladin and an army of thousands of paladins and dwarves will be there to save my butt. All I have left is hoping someone will fill me in on the massive metaplot stuff that's been going on for years before I first turned up. Metaplot stuff that I can't really contribute to, even. Earthshaking stuff is happening all around me but none of it has an effect on me even by proximity.

I think I'm off topic...

The server's identity?
Weeping for there are no more worlds left to conquer.

What its identity should be?
I don't care. I came here to have fun, I just hope that whatever happens to the world and its people: That anyone can do awesome stuff in it and not get so worked up over it.

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Player of:
Asya Goodmonsdottir - Knight of Lesser Gods.
-Winner of 2014's "Razored Tongue" Award, and Emcee's pick "Authoritarian of the year".
Jannah Vindle - Mistress of Coin.

No to overarching themes/stories.

I've played _a lot_ of RP servers, many of which did this. The end result is _always_ the same from the player's perspective, "why am I here/why did I bother showing up?"

DMs make some grand story and railroad everyone into it til they reach the conclusion they want. Anybody who goes offscript basically gets hammered out of it.

Amia works as/is. Each DM comes along and tells the stories they want to tell w/ players guiding it rather than witnessing it.

_________________
Rashad the Azure, Zakharan Merchant-lord Most Fair and Master of the Desert Wind
Loremaster Tukson Devers, Oghmanyte Wrestler of Knowledge and Child of the Passive Voice

(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)

Okay, so I've been procrastinating on posting in this thread for a while now but I need to finally get around to it.

Identity: It's an important part of figuring out how we're going to try and develop as a server.

The first thing we need to figure out is what we're doing right before we address what we're doing wrong. I put this to you: We've got the balance, and we've got the people on the staff for this doing a good job at trying to keep people interested with their plots. Now we need to take good and not-so-good and sort it all out before we can figure out, accurately what our identity is.

I'm taking a class that seemed silly at first, but it's sort of giving me tools to do things like this, it's a College Preparedness class, and mainly focuses on developing good ways of dealing with problems in real life. So to start with: Pros of what I'm seeing.




I know I could go into a lot more detail about this, but I'm trying to make this post coherent and not my subjective ramblings about every little detail I like about our players and our DMs. The next list is going to be all encompassing, since it's going to be our negative quality list. I know this all sounds like something that'd come from a therapist, but my professor is a therapist, so bare with me.



Now those are just a few of the things I've observed and decided to highlight for this post. I frankly think that we can fix all of these, though some of them are more difficult than others. But what I take from it is that Amia's identity is this: the players coming to a new world and trying to find a life/place in it.

This might sound funky to the people who use the word "adventure" as a catch all, but it's an easy one to explain. Everyone comes to Amia looking for something, or perhaps not looking at all. Maybe they just want to do what comes naturally. In any regard, this ends up having players intertwined in the plots and politics of the world around them, embroiled in wars and conflicts that happen near them, and living the lives they make for themselves as a result of the ongoing chaos of the world around them.

I could probably deconstruct and reconstruct what I just said and be proven right or wrong about all of it, but I do feel that this is what Amia is to me, in the very least. And this may not be the definition of things for everyone else, but I put it to you: Good or evil, man or monster, priest or mage, peasent or pauper; everyone is trying to live in Amia and form their own way. Weather that means paving the way for others or burning bridges behind them is unimportant, it still remains that the people who come to Amia remain because it is where their lives are.

It is why you see Kohlingen forming treaties and alliances instead of simply leaving and going to the Mainland, it's why you see Tarkuul working so hard to build a city that they've pulled from the ocean as an enclave of freedom from the denailist standards of the rest of society, it's why you see such superstitious fear of magic in the Jarldom of Wiltun and it is certainly why you see such animosity to the adventuring class in Cordor, whom always pass through armed to the teeth, occasionally bringing their trouble with them.

I could make more examples but it isn't necessary. Amians make their lives in whatever way they see fit, and those lives come into conflict as a natural result of so many dominant personalities coming into one place, it's natural.

Naturally this sort of identity is static at best, because it is so vaguely all encompassing that it rarely takes any real shape or substance, and leaves us with only vague ideas of what we want to accomplish in that regard at best, or at worst conflicting ideas.

I think a good short term way of solidifying any sort of identity is this: Give everyone a unifying goal that either puts them together as allies or opposite of each other as enemies. Obviously this goal has to be something so obvious that every side wants it or wants to stop it and as a result has to work all the harder for it.

And that brings me to what I would like to see Amia's identity become: The struggle for the power that is necessary to survive in a world that is constantly changing and very hostile

Weather it becomes the forces of good and liberation versus the forces of evil tyranny and chaos or weather it becomes a war against nations like the Amian forces against the Mainland or wiltun, or weather it means something more, such as Lusken invading Amia and the whole of a nation coming together to fight against a singular threat, I would like to see the focus shift toward that sort of thing.

The world around everyone is harsh and it is always meeting us with new threats, and I think Amia is no different in that regard. There should always be an antagonist, and there should always be a protagonist if you want a story that people can follow, and I think that there should always be a bad guy bigger and badder than what you're ready to face. As for good vs. evil? That's an easy bone to throw, but it's to black and white to just label like that. Either good is going to over step their boundaries or evil needs to be more motivated to be more overtly evil for some reason or it doesn't work.

Evil as a whole, I feel, needs to find a place and unify better. It's to fragmented and weak and that is why they will always be rolled over by Kohlingen. Consider this before you complain that the "allstars" are always the ones who win. They've been around longer because they've been doing it together for longer. Evil is always fighting itself, so on that. If the evil player base as a whole can do that I think it will only serve as a benefit to the server as a whole. But that's off topic.

So yes, I think our identity does need to be the struggle to survive weather it's by any means necessary or a unified alliance with the powers that be is entirely up to the player base. I think the DMs just need to hit everyone with a big threat and see what happens.

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

My Answer: Player Driven World

I have read it written several times by DMs that Amia is supposed to be a player driven server. This is what I think our theme/identity should be.

Adventure is a good close second; as it was described by Yossarin

It may well just be my own perspective, but I don’t see a world of adventurers so much, as I see characters that are just living their lives, generally surrounded by challenges that have to be overcome.

I am not saying that every endeavor that is undertaken should be an automatic success, and I am aware that a lot of DM time goes into allowing players to pursue their goals; so I’m not dismissing any of that.

I think an over-arching story could be beneficial if it pulled the seperate DM plots in so that they are all linked, even if in a tenuous way. However the issue that stems from that, what happens when the players solve that conflict? The DMs have to come up with another one, or the plot has to be made in such a way as to never have a resolution; which results in its own sort of frustrations for the players.

On the other hand the player base, and the focus of characters ebbs and flows and can create a blanketing conflict that will spawn many side plots if given the chance and support they need from the Staff. I understand that part of that ebb and flow includes players leaving plots hanging, but I really don’t see that as an issue. If the principle’s on one side or the other drop out, the plot is either carried (and likely won) by those on the other side, or it is dropped because the other side can’t get any movement. Basically (just pulling names out of the air) The Banites are causing trouble, Kohlingen looks for a way to put them down for good, but the Banites suddenly stop playing. Well that in itself is a resolution – the Banites disappeared, left the island, went into hiding, whatever. But the players still drove the conflict and resolution.

Now to get past the skirmish frustration, and this is going to touch on the afore-mentioned good vs evil debate. Evil is going to have to be more organized. The PLAYERS are going to have to find a reason that their evil group x would work with evil group y. Something like the story of the Witch King of Vaasa drawing in evil forces to take over Bloodstone and Daamara (only drawing from my own lore knowledge which is limited). So this is putting the majority of the burden on the players and not the DMs/staff. However- the staff is going to have to support the playerbase. Waiting two or three months for replies to PMs while RP withers and dies on the vine is not going to cut it.

I can’t speak to the previous mentions where Good always seems to win – IE showing up to hellball and destroy an evil base within weeks of it being built. Going with my benefit of the doubt/devil’s advocate mindset, I wonder if it is because the leaders of the Good factions are far more established. Both the characters and their players have a better understanding of lore and what can be done to both protect or destroy something. This is where I might ask (and know I’ll get flamed for it) that someone help get things started. Either staff or more experienced players sort of OOCly take someone that you know is a good roleplayer and would lead Evil in an intelligent way that would help the server – and help them develop a foundation.

I also agree that the OOC PvP rules suck, and are used unfairly. They are supposed to prevent griefing (which I completely understand the need for), but in reality they just reverse it. I mention this because to have a player driven world where PCs are on both sides of the good/evil axis then this is going to have to be reexamined. Most evil players are willing to have their characters attacked without warning, and pay some price for death in such instance – it is part of the thrill we seek in playing evil in the first place. So if Good is going to attack obvious targets on sight (Chromatics, undead etc) then they should be willing to abide by the same rules and consequences.

EDIT: Crap Bob, get outta my head!

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Iim'mur'ss - Grandmaster Shadowdancer / Aaralyn - Diplomat / Oleander - Toxic Desert Flower

This is completely false. One time in a DM event I spoke up and got hit by 3 greater ruins.

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THREE

Obligatory apology to all those I named the Amian Allstars. It continues to haunt you.

I no longer have a dog in the fight, but I'm glad you're investigating this. Amia has always had an identity crisis, but not for any bad reasons. Just normal reasons that can only be defied by people willing to be accomodating even in the face of perceived injustice.

As a relatively new player I can only comment on what I have seen in the last couple months and what I have heard in-game and on the forums, but I think Bob above has the identity about right. As to what direction the server should move I am in favor of more conflict, but it has to be set up in a way that makes sure no one side can always dominate the others. There does seem to be an overabundance of "good" characters, but that is probably a result of the fact that good seems to be dominant on the island and most people want to join the winning team. I have an idea of how to improve conflict and make it less of problem that I will post in another thread to keep this from going too far off topic.

One thing I have noticed here is the tendency for people to stand around in a "safe" area and talk for extended periods of time, usually about gossip that I have no way of understanding as a new player or about romantic relationships between characters. While if this is what many people like to do in a role-playing game then they have every right to do as they please, it seems kind of boring to me. If I want to stand around and talk or hit on girls, I can go to a bar and do it in real life. I play role playing games to explore an alternate world and to challenge my knowledge of character creation, of being someone I can't be in the "real world". Talking and interacting in-character is an important part of this, but it is more interesting if this happens while the characters are actually out doing something. There seems to be too much of a separation between "role-playing" in town where nothing is really going on, and "hunting" where you just run around in a circle through an area and kill things. I can't think of a way to make people want to combine the two more often, but it would be really cool if they did.

The one thing I can think of too encourage this is perhaps puzzles in the "hunting" areas which require more than one character to solve, on the order of "I have to stand here and do this while you stand over there and do that and then a secret door opens" or even things that are more complex, like I have to say a certain word while standing in a certain place, and so does someone else, then a monster appears and we have to hurry to meet back up to fight it. I have no idea how complex those type of things would be to implement though. This would also fit in with the idea that search. lore, and other skills are being made more useful which I have read about.

There are many things about Amia that are great, so I don’t want anyone to think I am just slamming the server here. I know criticism is easier to swallow when it is accompanied with praise, but that would keep you all here reading much longer than you want. So with that little disclaimer out of the way, I will jump into the heart of this post.

I tried to experience the many different facets of Amia with my first character. I observed as people in Kohlingen and Tarkuul became fully immersed in roleplay and explored their characters in every action they took, to rushing through dungeons with parties where little to nothing was commented IC. Some people RP the gradual progression of their character as they level up, and others get to 30 before they begin roleplay. Some roleplay the dice, and others hop straight into PvP. My point is, Amia is incredibly varied in its approaches to roleplay. There is no “correct” way to roleplay, but I do feel that part of the problem stems from the fact that Amia tries too hard to cater to and incorporate everyone. I am not saying that the staff suddenly set regulations and determine a strict playstyle that everyone has to adhere to, but without any kind of guidance or identity to cling to, as a new player I felt like I was drifting out to sea without a paddle.

So those were my observations, and what follows are my thoughts and opinions.
I think it is great that Amia identifies itself as a place for adventure that is all-inclusive. However, some things, especially its identity, are perhaps too vague and undefined. In my opinion, Amia suffers from a few issues:
1. Lack of cohesion
2. Lack of information which includes both IC (lore) and OOC (policies and how to RP certain mechanics). Information in general is also disorganized and hard to find.
3. Lack of player conflict, or rather, a focus on PvE.

All of this leads to too much freedom in places where guidance and soft restrictions are needed, and too much restriction and policing where there should be more freedom.

1. There are so many empty factions and areas, and while it is great that there is always room for a player to expand into these areas, there is just too much. There is definitely a quantity over quality element with areas in terms of how they are being utilized (if at all) and while this element has its purposes, it is working against the server. It thins out the player base and scatters them across two servers, as well as gives a greater workload for DMs as they try to juggle multiple factions and areas. Well-established guilds are not actively challenged by opposing factions because they either don't have any enemies, or their enemies are scattered among various factions, making it easy to squander them before they have a chance to become a real threat. Up and growing factions often don't get enough support or population to get a foothold. In this regard, Amia has almost too much potential for players to take advantage of. I think scaling down the server so that DMs and players can focus on a handful of core areas would help improve the quality of areas and factions alike. From there, the server can always slowly expand to accommodate new factions.

2. This is still closely related to the previous point, in that there is a lack of quality and time dedicated to the lore of the server. You have a lot of areas, in which the lore is either vague or nonexistent. There are areas that reduce the quality of RP because too much information is missing to allow the player to be immersed in what they are doing. Information that is common knowledge is difficult to obtain. Some server policies and rules are also vague or difficult to find, and I constantly found myself searching in three different locations among the journal in-game, the forums, the wiki, and then finally having to contact a DM for clarification. It is also a big reason for fighting among the playerbase because certain rules are not clearly defined or stated.

3. Much of Amia's DM-run conflict, at least in the time I've been playing, was almost always players versus NPC-faction/monsters. Instead of utilizing one of the many player-run evil factions, it often felt DMs were pitting their own evil NPCs against notoriously good factions. DMs have an opportunity to help drive player versus player conflict by involving both sides of the spectrum, but it often felt like evil players/factions were often left out of the loop. Also, as a note, when I say PvP I don't just mean fighting. There are many forms of player vs player conflict that doesn't require auto-hostile to wtfpwn one another.

I feel like a lot of the server is intentionally left “vague” so that players can pick up these areas and impact them the way they want as opposed to fitting into something already pre-determined. The problem is that players are unintentionally limited when trying to accomplish this. I was surprised by how much resistance new factions were meeting. I don't expect it to be easy, but I witnessed the fall of 5 or more factions before they even got off the ground, just in the time I played. Some of this was due to poor planning and short-sightedness on the player side, some of this was from a lack of support from the DM team, and some of this was from what I mentioned before about the server being spread too thin. I think a lot of this would be easily fixed by downsizing the server. There would be fewer areas and factions, but they would be better structured as it would draw in greater numbers from the playerbase while allowing DMs more time to dedicate to only a few factions and areas at a time, which would also generate more lore and background for players to better immerse and identify their own characters.

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I'm going to post less on Amia's identity and more on why Amia's identity isn't the foremost problem it has.

Problem 1: Accessibility.

When I first started playing Amia, I rolled a shadowdancer that liked to sneak around and eavesdrop on conversations. All I needed to do was wander around a little off the beaten path and I could often find people conspiring. This was before the housing system was implemented. Since the housing system has been implemented, every bit of conspiracy is done like this: Go to someone's house, use an umberhulk scroll, go inside.

At that point, any and all interaction is -impossible-. This is supposed to be a roleplaying server. How are people to roleplay when it's -impossible- to run into other characters?

I can't count how many times I logged in in recent months only to walk from Winya Ravana, through the forest, through Bendir Dale, down to Cordor, all through Cordor, took the boat to Wharftown, walked through Wharftown, took the boat to Uhm, walked all through Uhm, took the boat to Kohlingen, walked all through Kohlingen...

....and found exactly ZERO people while the server count says upward of 40 people online.

Tying this into Amia's identity crisis, Yossarin's Cordor plot destroyed any sort of newbie-friendly feeling this server may have once had. Sure, it's an interesting story (more on that in a bit), but it turned the ONE place that should have been most accessible and forgiving (easy portal travel, dropping people off right at the hub, etc...) into a place of indifference and confusion. Like someone else posted, there's nothing there to draw a player in.

I logged into Arelith once and was placed somewhere in their version of Cordor. I wandered for a few minutes without seeing anyone else. Did I keep wandering around? Nope. I logged out and went someplace else. If I can't be drawn into the world immediately, why should I waste my time?

The Cordor/Arcanum plot caters to established characters and, as much as Pony likes to think otherwise, the world does not require the same characters to keep driving things forward. All those characters are doing is bullying other, lesser-known characters aside. I know this because I was one of those characters at one time. You may be an exception, Pony, but you're not the norm. Getting back to the Cordor plot, dropping these new characters (and occasionally brand new players) off in such an area is rather harsh. The starting area should be a rather neutral area that runs little risk of ruining a new player's experience and has a great chance of having the new player run into other roleplayers. Cordor is not that place now. It's all but abandoned by the playerbase due to the comically evil Arcanum.

Either Amia needs to decide to place itself inside a bubble and cater to the current playerbase (and destroy/rebuild the world as it sees fit) or something needs to be done to change the culture in Cordor. Or the newbie hub needs to be moved to someplace more accessible, though that poses a problem with leveling zones.

Problem 2: DMs

I understand that naming the DMs as a problem is sure to elicit some ire. I'm going to elaborate, so don't let your jimmies get rustled quite yet.

I'll just go ahead and get something out of the way: The server shouts for events are stupid and have always been stupid. It turns a roleplaying server into something more akin to a raid in WoW. The shouts need to stop.

Another problem with the DMs is activity. I've noticed the active DM list has been pruned down in recent times. This is a good thing, but more needs to be done. Recent selections (as in the last 2-3 years) have been rather poor at times. I've seen players that rarely ever play get bumped up into a DM position. And wouldn't you know it, they rarely DM'ed. It's also an issue with long time DMs. It's great that some DMs have stepped down in recent times. It was something long overdue, really. Not that they weren't good DMs, but someone should step down once they no longer have the time to invest in the position. It feels like some people held onto their DM position solely for the status it gave them here. Looking over the active list, I see four names that stick out to me. I like all four of you (I feel the disclaimer needs to be said in order to prevent any potential insult, because none is intended: Hell, 3 of you are my favorite Winya DMs.), but really, how often do Maias, Gers, Peeves, and Mahtan DM these days? That list was longer just a couple months ago, so it's at least taking a step in the right direction.

Another problem the DMs have is catering to the same folks over and over. Whether it's the DMs' fault or not isn't the issue. A DM should go out of their way to include more players. I can't count how many times Ulrik, Tuomas, Nevaeh, Malandria, Erelkacha, Jud'vardas, and others have been the ones to save the day. I get that they're established characters, I do. I have nothing against these characters or their players. I like and get along with all of them. But when these characters are saving the day without even logging in except to join DM plots, it's a bad thing. At best, it adds nothing of value to the server as a whole. At worst, it increases the feelings of futility that other, lesser-known characters are having. I mean, why should they even bother when they know that Ulrik is going to figure out some magic trick to break the evil nasty monster's impenetrable defenses?

I was going to also comment about the arbitrary request system, but that can wait.

In closing, I think if these issues are addressed, the server identity should be a little easier to find and work toward polishing:

1) Get rid of the fucking houses. Make people RP where outside interaction is at least possible.
2) Fix Cordor or move the newbie hub someplace else.
3) No more server shouts.
4) More DM activity. More active DMs.
5) More character diversity in DM plots.
6) Lighten up on some of the request Nazi-ism.

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Remember when I knew a boxer, baby

I second this notion.

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Of those, only number 4 and maybe 3 are legitimate complaints.

Houses aren't an issue. (imo) It's not even worth commenting on. If your argument is 'outside interaction', then as someone who DMed for years I can tell you it is very easy to RP in an enclosed, secretive area, even without the houses. These sort of areas are necessary for a server, especially for a server that wants to allow evil to grow, since they are most often in need of these areas. And it's areas you're not just going to come upon as a shadowdancer flitting around, because the people doing the conspiring have already planned for that situation. That said: I do see your point, I just don't think it's as large a contributor to the problem as you might think, and I think the loss of the houses does more harm than good at this stage.

Cordor doesn't need 'fixing' and the hub doesn't need moved. You complained about not being able to get involved, but if Cordor is 'comically evil' right now, then doesn't being put there as a new person make it incredibly easy to get involved? You're running at cross purposes here. The hub doesn't need to be neutral ground, either, and forcing a large city in the server to adhere to such for the sake of 'hub' is asinine. Welcome to server development. PS if cordor is comically evil right now that's hilarious.

Character diversity, blah blah, it's been run into the ground, but I can't count how many times the Cordor people got new folk involved. Then they simply disappeared or weren't making contact or weren't coming to meetings IC, or got bored when they realized the plot wasn't lightspeed, or anything, and if you ain't showing up, you stop getting invites. Let me give you a news flash: If people didn't want them showing up to everything to help, then they should stop running to them first thing for help when shit goes down. You're complaining about a bit of a feedback loop here. But frankly, asking a bunch of good aligned characters to not help because 'you're too famous' would have been like asking the Banites to stop doing evil shit because they're too well known. Or like asking the Drow to stop being so backstabby because dangit, we're full on our treachery quota this month. It's terrible logic. If we're sitll using Ulrik as an example: If his character has the time and the problem involves magic, you can't expect him to not want to help and put his years of experience into the field. It would be out of character for him to so blithely ignore the issue, given the circumstances. I don't know if you noticed Yoss' post about the 'All stars', but when he says it haunts them, he is right. I can guarantee you they're all aware of this phenomenon you bitch about, and they go out of their way to delegate every instance they can reasonably do IC to other people and involve others where they can. This sometimes meets with success, and when it does you don't often hear about it because, well, you don't really hear when someone *isn't* complaining. You know?

I won't touch on Phearnun's (ps your new name sucks) bit except to say that I agree with him in one aspect: I firmly believe that established characters add a great deal more to a setting than a cadre of divided-play alts. But that has no bearing on the... "Allstar" syndrome.

Requests should never be lightened up on and should always be gone over with a fine tooth comb because every single request approved sets precedence for the next one down the line. One bad one goes through and soon you're explaining to at least five other people why player A got what he wanted, but they can't have it. Amia gives you pretty much carte blanche to request A LOT of stuff. And that means separating the wheat from the chaff. There can be a lot of chaff.

~

More active DMs and more activity is the never ending war. Enough said.

~



Large scale PvP conflict almost always results in disastrous tragedy OOC for all involved. I'm not really sure I remember even once that it went well, unfortunately. It's a side effect of the game and the system itself, and pitting PCs against PCs, rather than the environment. When people lose, and not nameless entities, tempers flare.

ed: PS that doesn't mean the DMs don't/won't/aren't utilizing evil PCs, idk anything thta goes up there these days, i speak only from my own experience.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Well, maybe kids should be raised to not to be the precious little snowflakes that never lose, that always get their way, blah blah blah. Life's a bitch, get used to it. If you really can't handle that in a game...sucks to be you. I say this with no insult to anyone, but I think this server, if not the game requires a certain level of... maturity.

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I'm done. Goodbye.

Yes, we can all wish that everyone is perfectly mature and can handle a loss with grace, but it's not realistic and it applies to both sides in every conflict. It applies even more when there's a physical loss to the fight, such as a plan going foul or a faction base being lost. Neither here nor there, though, and it doesn't really fix the problem to just bitch and wish. I learned hat a long time ago but was too stubborn to ever really admit it (and even though I admit it, I'm too stubborn to not believe that it doesn't have shot at working.)

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

He's right. Also, Pony, we miss Phearnun.

Even when you intellectually KNOW Joe Blow over there didn't -mean- to squash your eighteen months of hours-a-day RP, he just did, and you hate him.

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Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

I agree with this completely. I can't believe that a game this old, where most of the players must be adults and most probably adults over the age of 25 has a problem with people being personally angry that they LOST AT A GAME. If losing at a game hurts your feelings, you should get out more into the real world. I can see people being unhappy if there is one side that always wins, but as long as things are set up so that both sides have a chance and everyone has to lose at some point there should not be a problem. One of the best things about online games is competing against other players. Having to set things up so that the players are all on one side just so nobody gets their feelings hurt takes away a major aspect of the game.

Yes, this is a game. However, this is a game you're putting hours and days and months of your ACTUAL time into. It's work. And no one likes seeing their work shitpanned.

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Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

Nothing is being "shitpaned". As far as I know, there is no permadeath here unless the player agrees to it before hand. At worst you die and have to hit the respawn button, and maybe a plot doesn't go the way you planned for it to go. On the other hand it does go the way someone else wanted it to go. It is the possibility of your plans working out, or of frustrating the plans of an enemy, that makes games like this interesting. If you know that things are going to work out the way you want them too from the beginning, every time, it just seems like a pointless exercise, like reading a story instead of participating in one.

You're right, but it doesn't stop people from feeling the other way, for a variety of reasons. The biggest the investment, the bigger the potential for backlash. You can't just say 'be more mature' and wish away the problems. As a DM and to a degree as a player, that's something you need to be aware oif and plan around when you're preparing to do any sort of conflict where PCs have an opportunity to be on either side (i.e. probably every conflict). But all the awareness and attempted prevention in the world doesn't stop the odd shitstorm from cropping up. Or the frequent ones, even.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

I also cannot point to this thread enough if we're going to see any real benefit to the server. People need to focus on one character. Two at best. Stop making an alt for every faction. During the Cordor event I saw characters that hadn't been played in months taking a very active role and claiming credit for things they probably didn't have much prior knowledge of just because the horn sounded.

So here Yoss' excellent post. It gave me a good idea why alt-hopping all over the server every time you want to join another faction can only hurt the server. Concentrate and have play your main character. Having an alt is alright, but having no solid idea of who you're playing is just harmful and disruptive when someone does invite you to be a part of their RP and expects you to stick around.

I know I'm probably going to get some sort of shit storm for this idea since it's a bit unpopular for some of you folks, but please PM that to me instead of polluting the thread with divisive comments. If you have anything constructive to say I welcome you to say it. But if you want to disagree with me only because "I just don't like your opinion" then please just PM to it to me. This thread is to valuable for that sort of thing and I don't feel we should do that here. I welcome an actual conversation on it however, and welcome your PMs as such.

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

I will back this up, as probably one of the top two alt-itis players on the server, now that I am actively only playing 2, 3 if someone needs Shadowdancing instruction.

It's a whole different world, and I think it would change the server drastically if something were to be done to reward keeping it to 2 chars or something

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Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

Here is one thing to remember, your avatar may not be real and the world may not be real, but someones feelings are real, even in a virtual world.

Your character does not act on thier own, you download your "mind" into said character to animate it and give it life, so things that happen can effect you as a player, because you are in control of said character. It is why the server is in the PG-13 area

Remember please folks, try to keep this to posts of your perspective on the question at hand, not back and forth discussion. The intent is to form a "database" of perspective to pull from, not worry about who's agreeing/disagreeing with whom

Yar! While we'd love to tackle all of these issues, the goal of the thread (As I believe it to be) is a question of identity. So we can gain a general consensus of what the people want, so we can work toward making it happen as a DM team. We're already making a few simpler changes just based on your feedback already.

Identity! Identity!

I hope the identity of Amia remains a rp server with occasional pvp and not a pvp server with occasional rp. I will try to elaborate my feelings below.

Player conflict isnt always a good thing. Dont overdo it and dont seek conflict for the sake of pvp.
I am all for conflict but pvp/ direct player conflict only brings out the worst in people it seems (I am no exception there.) Npc's are more then welcome to stir up the pot for me.
Conflict doesnt mean you -have- to ruin another pc's work by default. The main focus should be building up your own thing and not ruining things for others. If thats your focus I think you're on the wrong path in a game.
Evil vs good is one thing but there are more sources of conflict such as law vs chaos (I LOVED planescape for that.) where celestials and fiends may find common ground. The Banites for one could make some inroads there perhaps as they are not only evil but also strongly lawfull.

Also, if you play a paladin a neutral adventurer wont mind you much but if you play an undead the neutral warrior would likely attack you. If you are an evil human warrior he wont however if you give him no cause to do so. Evil doesnt always have to be extreem to be efficient.

Exemple: The Zhents dont antagonize too many factions because they too would be squashed if they annoyed too many powerfull factions at the same time (Example, the live and let live agreement between Fzoul and Khelben Blackstaff comes to mind or Alustriel and Klauth agreeing to not attack the other).

Pvp might attract people but it will also drive people away if overdone
Myself, I see a very stark contrast on how people clamor for pvp/ player conflict on the forum and how people dont mind the consequences on the forum compared to how I have seen people behave in pvp/ conflict. I have differant feelings there. I dislike pvp.

I would mind Harold being killed because he ran into Harry the Banite in forlorn dungeon IV. I would also dislike having to kill Harry the Banite. Unless the rp is nice and there is ooc courtesy which would make things enjoyable. So far I sadly havent seen such in pvp situations.

Dont twist your leg to attend every dm event, leave some for others
I do agree people rushing to a scene after a shout is bad (as I mentioned before somewhere) I hope shouts can be made area based somehow because if you are in Cordor you might notice something happening there. In Kohlingen you wont though. If thats not possible I think you can only trust players not to metagame information and keep an eye on who suddenly relogs/ ports to the event area.

A fully player driven world would be awesome but isnt doable at the moment
I can fully understand people wanting a fully player driven world and requests handled quickly. But on the flipside we have a lot of players and relatively few dms. I am afraid a fully player driven world would require twenty active dms that are online 60 hours a week and have daily staff meetings. It would be lovely but I dont think its realistic. Not unless we get a millionair to back Amia or Disco finds oil/ a gold mine in his garden.

This also means serverplots are progressing slowly. Likely so slow the server seems to lack direction at times. I have a feeling that isnt so as the Cordor plot proved but it can be disheartening to try a lot and seeing little coming from it. I think it happens to the best and you're only defeated when you give up.

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Characters played:

Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar
Elloanore (Travelling bard)

Honestly I think a Zhentish invasion would be a great unifying thing for Amia. It would give Amian banites a chance to try and prove their worth to the banites of Zhentil keep as well, possibly giving them a more solidified place to RP from.

Just my two cents. If Gerald's ties weren't where they were he'd probably be an awesome banite <.<

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

Can't go wrong with a good alien invasion scenario, as long as it's done sparingly. I'd say there's a fair chunk of the playerbase who know just about nothing of the Horde or even the Dark Flight so it's not likely to seem overplayed. Who invades? Could be anyone, FR is good for that. Far Realmers, Inevitables, various evil churches, Czechnians, some ancient wyrms. Whatever shows up would be a significant enough threat to keep everyone engaged, but allow for the majority of players who don't want to be involved to just avoid it and hide/go level up with normal hunting. But that's another topic.

Should "predominantly good-aligned" count for identity? I mean it's no coincidence that the city with the most apparent activity is LG-aligned along with the affiliated factions. I'd definitely be happier with more movements towards neutrality (we do okay but could do better, however there's just not many options for Neutrals to really unite - fixing this might count as something we can move towards I guess?)

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@Thanatopsis#6293

I think the issue here is one that has evolved IC; the Keep has utterly washed its hands of Amia and wants nothing more to do with any of it.


You're welcome.

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Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

Actually, I believe it's been said that they have washed their hands of the Amian chapter of the Church. If that's correct, then they could just come invade to show how real Banites operate!

Disclaimer: That's not a slight against the PC Banites, just speculation as to what might motivate Zhent into attacking given their IC disposition towards the Amian chapter.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Well this is off-topic but to address briefly, I'm against bringing in an Enemy To Unite Against which gives plenty of room for PCs to get involved on the Enemy side. It just doesn't work as a narrative device, and it's bound to get messy. Part of or perhaps most of the reason there's a general sentiment of DM-railroading going on around here is because PCs are really hard to plan for. Ask any decent tabletop DM and they'll tell you that improv is a key skill, because you never know what your PCs will do. But improv is damn hard and it does limit your options with any narrative. Evil PCs are even harder to predict, and when you bring two sides in with a monolithic enemy... yeah, there's a lot of reasons it just doesn't work, but I don't want to get into it here.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

If you want to focus on identity then here ya go:

A. You're a gaming server, hosted online, with custom content in a perpetual interactive world. It's persistent, continuous.

B. There's a huge element of role-play involved, along with your dungeon smash adventurers, social and other types of RP.

The aim should probably be to create a living, breathing, interactive world with a sense of realism to the point where 'you can get lost in the game, and have a really good time.' -keeping in mind decent courtesy as you're interacting with other real people on an OOC level. Realism can break down in several ways, and that's expected to an extent. Good games, minimize this where possible. Why is realism important? Because in a role-playing game, it's all about believing the story. If it seems fake, odd, or out of place...you're probably not very into it. -However some rules have to be in place to protect players, these rules should only and always have the focus of facilitating more enjoyment for your players as a result of them. (-or in the case of legalities of the real-world, take effect as necessary)

The aim of any game should be the enjoyment of its players. Period.
(In this situation that would include enjoyment of DM's as well, as they 'play' and partake in the game)

So the real question is, how do you create a virtual-world that people enjoy playing in?

-and there's your differences of opinion in answering that question, it also can vary on your audience and personal tastes, however a fundamental that I and others have been driving at to the core is:

Games/Movies/Adventures/GreatStories/Books/and anything else under the sun designed for entertainment, has a few key elements that are essential for capturing the attention of the audience.

You need a Protagonist (person/group/situation) and an Antagonist (person/group/situation).

You need conflict.

"A protagonist (from Ancient Greek p??ta????st?? (protagonistes), meaning "one who plays the first part, chief actor"[1]) is the main character (the central or primary personal figure) of a literary, theatrical, cinematic, or musical narrative, who ends up in conflict because of the antagonist."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protagonist

The important part to note here is: "...,who ends up in conflict because of the antagonist."
An always statement.

"An antagonist (from Greek ??ta????st?? - antagonistes , "opponent, competitor, enemy, rival", from anti- "against" + agonizesthai "to contend for a prize,")[1] is a character, group of characters, or institution that represents the opposition against which the protagonist must contend. In other words, an antagonist is a person or a group of people who oppose the main character(s).[2] In the classic style of stories wherein the action consists of a hero fighting a villain/enemy, the two can be regarded as protagonist and antagonist, respectively.[3]The antagonist may also represent a major threat or obstacle to the main character by their very existence, without necessarily deliberately targeting him or her."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antagonist

This concept has been true since the dawn of theater and before. If there's no conflict to overcome, then there's no hero, and there's no story. How do you have a hero to save the day, if the day doesn't need saving? ....you can't. No villain, no hero, no conflict, no interest.

First step to identifying yourself as a server, is admitting you're a game, with players, and you seek to further the enjoyment of the people who play it. Second, ask how best to do that.

-but please for the love of entertainment in all its forms, we need antagonists, we need conflict. All games need it, a challenge is -mandatory-. How good a game is, depends on how that is executed.

It's -not- supposed to be ACelesti-mia. No game is. Ever.

You know what typically happens to games with heavens in them? They get INVADED. By frikin' Demons. -and you have to save heaven, the world, and creation itself. It's epic. Like 'wowwww, cooool.' epic.

Now obviously that's perhaps quite over the top for a world like this. (deities and such keep stuff in check, as well as the eternal wars with minor disturbances here and there in the scheme of things)

But please, support Antagonists in a very huge major way.
If you design a perpetual environment, design it with perpetual changing and challenging conflict, for the net effect of perpetual interest.

There are many types of conflict, I suggest using like..all of them. Your creative mind is the limit, while keeping the story believable.

In this situation we have factions that can be developed on behalf of the players to self-generate this so the DM Team isn't the only source of conflict, as I imagine you'd become overworked trying to keep up with the interest demands of the entire server.

63 protagonists players and dm's playing as protagonist players, vs 1 antagonist DM is not a good ratio.

Balance the scales. (please)

If people want to whine about pvp, 2 bad, they need to grow up. Check to make sure the rules aren't violated and move forward. It isn't the number that should be the factor, it should be the action that is the factor. Ask "Was a rule broken?" don't punish people for not having broken any rule, regardless to how many people are crying 'lost pvp' against them. If you get too many complaints to the point you think enjoyment of players overall is perhaps effected, then think about establishing a rule that better fits the situation. (and as stated this seems to be under consideration already as the pvp-rules are being examined)

Always, in every rule made or existing, aim for the enjoyment of all who play here.(which usually translates into a realistic 'Most', however the aim is all). The best game brings the most enjoyment.

p.s. Because my counter-argument sense is tingling. When I say realism I mean 'Believable Game Environment', this one includes magic, and oddities ect and that's part of the game's realism/believability. Stuff like that is completely in line with the story and lore of the world.

Some might say how can you make such a generalization about all games? What about social ones?

Here's a quote from a review of the Sims.

" Sims will interact with each other in entirely different ways depending on the situation, and given the many different factors that can affect a situation, your sims can and will do something to, for, or with others that you may or may not have expected. Though sometimes these situations may end in insubordination or hostility, it's these exchanges and their results that truly make The Sims an interesting game to play. And they'll provide you with enough motivation to continue playing."
http://www.gamespot.com/the-sims/review ... w-2533406/

Oh look, conflict, risk, uncertainty, with a healthy dose of progression, it generates interest.

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When good wins the day, and evil is destroyed, then the movie is over ...and you do something else.

Let's make it, not over.

Been meaning to post my thoughts, and bunch of people have said what I have already thought. But I’m going to thump my chest and throw my two cents in ANYWAY.

I can agree with the sentiment that the overarching theme of Amia is “adventure,” but adventure in a more sandbox sense.
You can make an endless variety of characters and throw them on to the scene. Priestess of Umberlee wanting to bring back some lasting fear towards her goddess? Cool. Righteous mage all about the proper & moral use of magic? Go ahead. Workaholic svirfneblin who wants to mine their way up the social ladder? Awesome.
You roll these characters up and then roll them out across the Amia landscape, sometimes they work out and you enjoy the RP. You might fit in & rock well with a certain group of people. Sometimes the character is a dud and you get bored, maybe because it sucks being the only clergy of this particular god or maybe because you realise the immoral use of magic is oh so much more fun.
DMs are also very important in this sandbox aspect as they get the world to react and change from our combined tomfoolery.
Either way, we try characters out and see how they work out. So in that way I feel Amia is a very adventure/sandbox kind of game. That said, I totally echo Yossarin’s topic, because your characters have more chance of making a splash and succeeding if you focus on a few/one.

Story Arch? Story Arches are great! They’re great to keep things “fresh,” provide new challenges for characters & factions so things don’t grow old and stale, give room for growth. Big or small, I think story arches are important in that they can challenge the status quo for good or bad.
For an all encompassing Story Arch for the server itself? Well, I dunno really. We have ~lots~ of different groups. Dwarves, glorious drow, paladins, darthiir scum, Eilistraeens, those Jarl followers, Cordor, scenic Tarkuul. What sort of story arch would bring them all in? Hell, aren’t they all a huge story arch by themselves already? All these groups coexisting on the server?
Why yes, I think they are, we’re all sharing the same sandbox after all.
I don’t think we need a bigass story arch that effects the world but rather DMs to remain in tune with what’s happening on the ground, if I were to name an overarching theme however, I would say; Opportunity.
Story arches that provide opportunity for character personal growth, for conflict and for change, opportunity to challenge the status quo or the opportunity to extol it.
I would prefer a series of story arches. Some might be aimed at the Underdark, but open to nosey & adventurous surfacers if they dare. Perhaps something just at Winya, but open to interference by those trying to undermine those horrible elves or open to the elves’ allies to back their good pointy-eared friends.
Or more general ones aimed at specific areas like Cordor, Ruathym etc.
I think varied story arcs are important, the drow have their own identity, the Kohlingners have their own identities, the Winyans and Tarkuulians have their own identities. And they should remain distinct, this moreso for the various good guys who risk being lumped in together as the “Treaty of Light.”

Strategic plan! I think it is important for the bigger story arches to remain accessible to the player base in general. What I suggest is that we need an Adventurer’s Guild. A Heroes’ Guild, a Treasure-Hunter’s Guild, whatever! Not player run, but DM managed. Maybe Cordor establishes a guild with a charter to use adventurers to solve their various problems, as well as a way to manage that pesky adventurer problem? Or maybe some enigmatic force establishes this guild and signs a charter with each of the big cities to have this Guild operate on a server-wide basis? And when we have a story arch, it is the adventurers of many stripes who are called upon to investigate and putting them at the forefront. Maybe these adventurers have ties to other places like Tarkuul or Kohlingen, and use them to get an advantage in their Adventuring? Who knows really, it’s a big thing and anything can happen. But at least the Adventurer’s Guild that operates fast & loose will be a useful tool for DMs to get PCs involved.
Also I think the dialogue of NPCs and the quests they give should also tie into these story arches and reflect the world in general, it makes the world feel so much more alive.

Good vs Evil RP, hahahaha, well… I’m an evil player, that is, a player who plays evil PCs and have been for a few years now. I bet some of you have never met my PCs ingame, I bet you people don’t live in Australia either which is why I never rolled with the big name evils like the Banites and the Slavers because timezones suck hard. *beats the dead horse* But my bitching aside.

First thing is first, I totally agree with Glim. Good vs Evil RP is mainly a player responsibility. I think DMs have to play their part to nurture it, which by the way is what Dusty and Glim have been doing with the Underdark & Tarkuul respectively.



Yes, there’s evil factions. There’s Tarkuul and there’s the Underdark drow, we’re here. We’re totally here, come and hang out with us. We may not currently be in the puppy kicking and baby eating business to terrorise the good guys (at least... not publicly), but that’s because we have our own stuff to work out first. What sort of stuff? Bob’s post sums it up



Pretty much that. It’s only natural the good guys are always going to be the better bet. Evil by its nature is self-destructive; one of the biggest hurdles is getting evil people to work together and getting them focused to work for a common goal. The reason why the Cultists and Banites did so well was because they knew how to get their people focused. They had a mission, a goal.

I also think a few evil players (not all of course) have no patience which is part of the problem, that they are just doing their evil shtick for the thrill. In retrospect, part of why maybe the Banites and Cultists were successful was because they could offer this without much problem. I don’t fault you for being in it for the thrill since it feels good when you get away clean with dastardly deeds, but you have to be ready to work for it.
Especially if you want to kick established powers like Kohlingen in the teeth and get away with it.

So I think in order for evil to thrive, we players of evil need to take the initiative to establish our evil fanclubs and engage with the DMs so we can pursue our evil shenanigans. We also have to be realistic about what we’re doing, of course the good guys are going to stomp on us hard given the opportunity, so I think it is important to acknowledge the risks you are taking, and look for ways to minimise the risk of being rubbed out. I think evil has some catching up to do, true there was some legitimate issues why it has been set back in the past but it doesn't necessarily mean it should be handed to us on a silver platter. The Treaty of Light as it is didn't happen overnight. Faction building by itself is hard.
This topic also had some interesting things about establishing successful factions, give it a read.



That actually sounds like an interesting story, evil cult and getting caught. But also saddening that you’re not into the evil anymore, I encourage you and your friends to try again. Try to identify what killed you and ways to work around it, if it’s a brigade of paladins shoving swords through you is the problem, then find ways to mitigate that threat like making friends whether with other PC groups or NPC settlements. ENDURE COMRADES!

But I'll again reiterate this point, Good vs Evil, I agree, is mainly a player responsibility. And I think DMs need to do their part to nurture it, which I feel they have been working at.

Oh, and naturally we should do this all in good grace and not take things personally when they don't go our way. I know it can be hard, shit happens but roll with the punches etc. Failure can make CHARACTER GROWTH!

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We're actually still around and doing just that. Just... I stopped thinking I'd be able to burn Kohlingen to the ground and decided to utilise my tendency to just follow people around into being a better spy for the Cult of Our Glorious Lady. Weirdly (obviously) we found that the better way for evil to win is to just not fight the big good guy juggernaut. We're never going to outfight them, but we can sure give a good run at trying to out-roleplay them.

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Player of:
Asya Goodmonsdottir - Knight of Lesser Gods.
-Winner of 2014's "Razored Tongue" Award, and Emcee's pick "Authoritarian of the year".
Jannah Vindle - Mistress of Coin.

Like many of the other posts I have to say the major issue is the whole good vs evil conflict. Like many of you I agree that it is very one sided and is perhaps the main reason why I left the server, but I still want to see it change for the better. Unless your a Drow living underground you'll face opposition at every turn, people would then say "play smart evil" which is fun but, not all evil characters can be "smart evil" kind of the whole point of having different characters they can't all be the same. Coming from someone that plays only evil over the 2 and a half years I played here something should be done about that. There are so many "Good" cities, whether cities like Cordor are considered more Lawful Neutral doesn't matter, they're still good by being anti-evil (I know little of Cordor btw). What I'd like to see personally is a place invaded and downright taken over by a evil force, and not simply losing it after one month. Like say Wiltun attacked by a fleet of pirate mercenaries and throw in some amia made Demigod to counter act the ridiculous amount of power Kolhingen has when they come to liberate Wiltun. I would love to see something bad happen to a major city. I tried to destroy the Shrine as my way of setting things right but it didn't turn out as I hoped.

But anyways without evil what is the point of having good? When Good finds something to smite and think that evil may put up a fight they have no trouble in assaulting it with as many factions as they can muster. Evil does not have that luxury, those that exist don't often get along with each other so well. I remember when the Banites were around just being their charming selves, towards the end of the churches days the whole RP was based around rebuilding a church away from prying eyes. Like seriously? How bad is it when you have Banites hiding in caves huddled around an idol of Bane thinking back on the good old days. Evil should not be so afraid of the rest of the server, it should be the other way around at least from a RP perspective. I know you guys tend to let those conflicts play out ICly, but DMs should have to step in every-so-often and provide a handicap if needed to keep the balance. This server NEEDs conflict, and where is the conflict if evil is hiding from good? By trying to remain impartial you're appearing biased in my eyes.

Back when I played religiously I noticed most of the DMs played good PCs, or neutral but that doesn't matter because you hang with the "good" crowd. I remember a select few DMs that played primarily evil, unfortunately some had to leave and it saddened me to see them go. As DMs you guys don't just tell the story and review requests, you're the role models of this server. Everyone here looks up to you guys to set the example, in my humble opinion by only playing good aligned characters you're indirectly hurting the delicate balance between good and evil.

Adventure would of course be awesome too and would certainly grab players attention but again you'll run into the good vs evil problem. Unless this is yet another adventure that only the select few players/factions can attend.

This post is based off my experience on the server as a whole from the time I left, I do not know how much of if any of it has changed since I left.

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~Draco Bloodcloak~ In the mind of a tielfing
~Xanhorn Dragonsbane~