Recently, and as far as I can remember there has been a trend with large events with amazing plots, magical creatures and dreadful consequences should the many heroes of Amia fail. Is this a good thing, or is it a bad? I am not so sure. This topic is meant for arguments and suggestions because I will try and post a suggestion in the improving amia forum later and I'd like to hear the player-base's point of view, advises and suggestions to how to make the events a more positive experience for everyone. The reason behind this is because the recent Reyes event have lead to a lot of frustration on my part, as well as some other things that have lead to negative experiences and annoyances.

First of all I will start with the mechanical part. This one is simple, but still a good argument. Facts are NWN is not made to handle events where 50+ people are involved at the same time, it leads to a lot of frustrating lag which has been so bad that I've had to spent up to 5 minutes going through a single transaction. This happened in the Cordor event, in the Brogendenstein ward and the other major events I have been a part of. Another reason events involving a lot of people is a bad idea is because I think it makes it hard for the DM's to get what is going on with everyone, and what they are doing. I have at some occasions felt ignored by the DM and so have others I have played with. Not just as if the DM noticed me, but that the DM have ignored my characters abilities, which in a sense is metagaming, and this has happened a couple of occasions

Another thing is the proportion of the events, as in magical wise. There is powerful foes, and not defeating them may have dreading consequences. The powerful magic makes the heroes reliant of mages and priests and other casters, making it harder for fighter and rogue sort of characters to step into the light as heroes, or villains. In achieving goals, revealing secrets and such a "mundane" character is helpless compared to a mage and with few exceptions ends up as nothing more than PvE things.

Also take in note that Amia isn't the center of the world, it's just a small island (with a lot of magic) west of the Sword Coast

When it comes to consequences this does not just bother me during the events, but also the time in between them as well. When it comes to the Reyes event especially this one is killing me. Everyone speaks about it, but Eara is completely helpless to do anything about it. I come around to have a good time, just to hear talk about Reyes, or other things she's helpless about. It's not like Eara would ignore it either, as it seems right now if we ignored it, that it would be the end of the world. So in the end, this event have made me loath to play Earalenia, or at Amia at all recently.

DM's should also perhaps be a bit more considerate of the factions they interact with. Giving a faction a hard time, ruining their things and such after spending perhaps years on building up is rather mean. The Shrine has been destroyed twice now (though we'll manage) just this year, the War Knight were in my opinion more or less destroyed by how powerless the DM left them. What I am trying to say is, maybe be a bit considerate DM's?


My suggestion is to start with smaller events that are more factions focused and inclusive instead of larger ones that involves all of Amia, not only will this lower the mechanical problems but perhaps make it possible to give the factions and DM's that are more in the same timezone. I am not saying that people shouldn't be able to have an impact on the whole of Amia anymore, but the end of the world and such? it's kind of cliche and it's tiring and not making me at least wanting to play on Amia.

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I am not weird, I am limited edition

Firsthand experience says DMs will always run into this as a potential problem. The whole gig is a delicate balancing act and your feedback is very helpful, so thanks for sharing.

Personally, I do not share your opinion, but I approach any IG world in a different way than most players. Appreciating different aspects of it while learning not to adopt certain expectations that would set me up for disappointment.

This sums up my concerns with Amia and partly the reason why i've retired my main character and stopped logging in as much anymore.

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I think the current plots are rather exciting. Plenty of old hooks have been taken into a new direction and years of build-up is unfolding in a way I really never expected. And more imporantly, it's the master narrative and shared story of intertwining plots which many of us have wanted for Amia.

Neither me nor my character believe it's as serious as it's made out to be, though. If it was, we'd have Ioulaum, Larloch, Simbul, Elminster, Telamont, half a dozen factions and a few countries pissing on the upstarts and blowing Amia up. Not to mention the gods. Everyone likes to exaggerate to make themselves seem important. What matters it's relevant to our PCs and the region.

One thing I do think would be nice is better communciation. The only way you're going to find out some things your character really should be aware of is by asking the right questions. You can easily go on with your life and miss half of the story because DM story posts only say so much, and even that inconsistently. I mean, I tend to have a fairly good hunch for stuff like this, and I'm in a place to find out. Not everyone has it as easy. More updates on NPC gossip, what our PCs would see, what clerics might learn in daily prayers etc. It's been a lot better than in the past, though. Not complaining, but there's probably some room for improvement there.

But to be honest, I'm not sure how fruitful it is to evaluate events that are still in progress. Some adjustments of method can be suggested, sure, but it's not as if the DMs should drop a story or radically change its course because some players don't like it. Feedback is nice, but it can also turn pretty sour and demotivating. I've never cared for half of Amia's DM plots (let alone PC stories and cheesy stick figure factions), so I just stick with the ones I like. Life goes on, just let Harpers, Nobles and Vampires handle Reyes if you're not interested.

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I agree with much of what is said here, both sides. Here is my 2 cent addition:

The large number of ppl in an event is indeed the primary problem with allowing people to feel involved. In a game world like NWN, that being an on /screen/ game, means that we have to type what we're doing, and saying. Not everyone can type 70+ words a minute, and even so, that means comments and emotes flying by the DM at an enormous rate, often times making it hard to catch it all. This only leads back to Shadow's comment about feeling ignored. It may very well not be the DM ignoring a player, but simply having missed what was typed. On the other hand, the rate at which things go by makes it so that someones response to an emote or comment, given the various typing abilities, often has said response to be wildly out of context because 17 other things have been said or done in the short time the initial emote or comment was made.

Another thing that has effected me directly is when DM's possess their npc's, it seems to me that they often forget that they're still DM's with their DM powers. in my personal instance, they see /everything/. My main is a Shadowdancer, many know this. All to often have I tried to remain 'subtle', only to have my character interacted with directly by said NPC. This only has all the surrounding players suddenly get curious, and start spamming their various seeing spells, or spot boosting abilities, ultimately metagaming their surroundings.

In short, less is more.

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I Am:
Derrin: 'Nothing to see here'
Beck: Hard working dwarf paladin.
Naela 'Widow': Wandering priestess.
Celinor Triellian: Paladin of Corellon.

Well that's what Earalenia thinks too, but when everyone around her are so caught up in it, Eara's opinion doesn't help, the subject will be brought up and take a lot of time, and Eara feels it will be selfish to force people involved in the event to think about her minor issues in stead. For example, indirectly because of the event Eara have had to postpone a meeting in several weeks. And when it comes to ignoring it, that would be breaking character too.

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I am not weird, I am limited edition

I couldn't agree more, Earalenia; you took the words right out of my mouth, and I feel exactly the same way with regards to the events. I feel pretty useless playing Triel'ithra or Viranirn, myself, when these blood mages with apocalyptic powers can trounce us without even the chance to fight back.

I think one of the problems is a lack of closure in a lot of plots. Every time something awful happens, rarely do the characters have much of a chance to get satisfaction within a reasonable time frame. Without naming names, I've had my characters tortured, branded, murdered and humiliated, and on the rare occasions that they actually managed to take vengeance on their tormenters, it often took months, maybe even a full year before it could come to fruition.

I, personally, do not enjoy large plots for this reason. They become bloated and confusing, and ultimately the outcome rests on the shoulders of a select few who may or may not even include others in the plot, and even then, it's debatable whether or not they'd have any impact whatsoever on the final result of the story.

It's even worse when your characters are forced into a plot which you OOCly don't want to get involved with, otherwise you'd have to contrive an in-character reason for them not to do so, and often this risks not only IC contempt, but OOC ostracization as well.

Make no mistake - I have a definite bias when it comes to this. I personally prefer smaller plots, one-shots or stories that can be concluded in the span of two, three or four events. It's the smaller plots, I find, that have the biggest impact on my characters' development, be it doing battle against insidious Mindflayers and their new technology, saving a friend from werewolves, or being captured and beaten by Beastmen. These are the sorts of plots that give me, personally, a lot more to work with to continue my character's story because, by nature, the story allows a player to highlight their own character in their own way, since their actions truly feel as though they have an impact.

The problem, I feel, are events that have a completely pre-determined course of events. As one example out of many, if the War Knights are going to be destroyed and ousted from their home no matter what actions or compromises they take, then what's the point in even playing them? When player initiative is rendered meaningless, or worse, punished, the plot becomes less of a character-driven story, and more of the DM's personal story. This isn't always bad; well-executed, it can make a powerful statement and fundamentally change the course of a character's development for the better. But when player control over events, and their own characters, is taken away, it damages the integrity of roleplaying itself.

I'm not expecting to win every plot, every battle. That would give us a boring "heroes always win" situation, and that's as stagnant as the current state of affairs. I'm not saying that all plots should be wide-open sandboxes without any cohesion or plans, and I'm not saying that we should do away with larger plots entirely. All I'd like to see are options for characters to gain closure, in one way or another, after something awful happens to them, their friends, or their homes in a timely manner, and for more smaller-scale plots, where the actions of characters, even lower-levels without so many connections, powers and special favours, can truly influence the outcome of the story.

Above all that, what I want to see the most is the chance for someone who isn't an all-powerful mage or nobleman to be able to do something meaningful, and for fewer apocalyptic plots, with world-ending consequences if someone screws up. A plot should be something where a PC can truly display the contents of their character, for DMs and players to see, as a chance for the player to show off their character's philosophy, their virtues and vices, their strengths and weaknesses, and have this make a bearing upon character and plot development.

Just my two cents.

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I play...
Mihaela-Luminița Sămășescu, Paladin of Torm

I agree.. former war knight here. I simply don't attend DM events anymore too.

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Devlin Faramond - Warrior Priest of Tempus
Aithne Ryrathrak - Red Dragon Disciple, Bronze Dragon Slayer
May'rinna D'vilrath - Underdarker and Noble House Sorceress

I think it's a bit unfair to say that large, realms-changing plots are the norm. It's likely a bias of perception given you're going to notice the apocalyptic blood mage more than you are, say, a small event or discovery that changes the faith of one or two characters, or that the Captain of the Guard adopted a new undead puppy. As far as I'm concerned, the DMs currently are doing a killer job at providing a veritable buffet of plots of all shapes and sizes to choose from. Sure, there's always room to improve on technique and execution (closure, character acknowledgement, consistency and fairness, and timely forum correspondence) but this thread will be more successful if it focuses on those issues rather than the content the DM chooses to tackle. Content you can pick and choose as a player, but technique could always use feedback.

As a player of diviner spellcaster, I get very frustrated when my divinings simply do nothing. I understand there is IC ways to shield from them, however, when I get words such as: "The spell does nothing." tells me that there was no effort put into it to state it otherwise. Just saying: No. I would rather have description what takes place. "The spell is casted succefully, however, suddenly it comes to an halt, seems it is unable to work as intended." Or something similar, effort put to say, "No, it did not work, but you tried." What I am trying to say it feels very unappreciated when my char tries and I simply get that. And I do think she is experienced enough to understand instantly, it either is not possible or it didn't work, instead of me having to ask.. "Well.. Was the spellcasting itself succesful or was there something preventing the spell take place?"

What comes to large scale events, I try to avoid them, however, sometimes my char has to be there because it is somehow linked into her interests. Nonetheless, I don't enjoy it, slash and hack events are very boring in my opinion. The Kohlingen Siege, however, was amazingly conducted in overall. I shared a moment with another player which came to state their relationship extensively and it had nothing do with DM's, but what DM's did there, was very well organized control, simply beautiful. The Cordor Chaos, was well planned as well, yet I felt it was Kohlingen's moment in every aspect.

As well, Yossarin, I've been only in one of your events and it was an honor. I did not do much there with ecl 6 mage, barely survived, but you were great and most likely still are at what you do.

What I dislike most, and by no means offensive to anyone, is that all larger plots always circulate around Kohlingen, Cordor and Bendir Dale. Winya Ravana, has not have stable DM for years, IMO. I understand there are two dm's currently set for Winya Ravana, but still there are nothing happening. Nothing happened even when we had huge increase in elf player activity. I tried to set thing with some DM's, went as far as calling IC shots as in arranging players to be there, and then.. Nothing happened. What annoys me greatly is the player contribution made to have new Mage Tower, to have the Tower of the Moon and still neither is there. I know they are being worked on, but it does not help the fact I feel Winya Ravana's elf players contributions to realize them was ignored until some of us started demanding them again and again.

I strongly feel that if you want to achieve something, you need to have players around you, however, usually always it seem there is only one way of succeeding in the plots, by having to turn to Kohlingers for help, or else you die. Or the plot in some regards is associated to Kohlingen. I would love to have more low key events, maybe some exploring of ruins, ancient artifacts, building your city. But as mentioned, it seems that most events simply have this extra powerful evil being you have to oppose in order to survive or else everyone perishes.

Recently in one event took place that High Captain Amilith shot a warning arrow at my character. Something, I personally felt, it was very uncharacteristic of him. By the experiences I've had in interacting with him, he did not seem like that kind of NPC. And I do think my character would have some level of respect in the City where she has worked to improve them. Being one to design the Mage Tower, one to plan the spell ritual for the Tower, being one to cast the Dancing Lights about the City, being one to design new guard attires to Winya Ravana.. Something she spoke with Amilith about, and finally her House. The elven houses are appreciated due to their ability to track back their family tree to ancient times, some more than others, yet I did feel odd that the High Captain would shoot an arrow at a person who has been working with him in few occasions, been working to build the city, been nominated twice for Council seat and finally a person of nobility among their own race. Why not simply shout out: "Do not approach!" Instead of shooting an arrow at your own kin, something I feel is very uncharacteristic of elves anyway.

Perhaps I expected a different kind of approach, but that is only because of the IC expectations and interactions with the NPC and Winya Ravana itself.


Would be lovely to see DM activity in Winya Ravana. Something positive for a change and not yet another war coming to their gates, or plaque. Even heard there was amazing player trying to become Dm and focus in Winya Ravana, what a loss to us in Winya, it never came to be. Elven DM things for Elves, is what I would love to see.

Currently one plot which is/was heavily set on Winya Ravana just died standing. I've tried a good number of times reviving it, gone as far as arraneg players IC and OOC into it, and when they set date comes: Nothing. Then I need to try to answer the IC and OOC questions why it didn't happen and all I can say is "Dm is not here." And IC:ly it is even harder to explain "Why we are not heading there even though we planned on it..?" Frustrating and demotivating.

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

The thing I keep seeing with DM plot is how they get taken over by the same old characters, other toons just don't seem to get a chance to have a say or do anything more then be there for the fight parts. Plot also takes far too long to be resolved, i'm not sure Ostland will ever be resolved (real life wars have ended faster since that plot started).

The Cordor thing was not designed for Kohl. I was playing a prominent character in Kohl for years and I was actually happy that it was not reaching Kohl. It only appeared in Kohl around 2010, 2 years later. It was only convenient that those who were affected by the Cordor thing, fled to Kohl in time.

Never said it was planned for Kohlingen, merely ment that the DM's who worked upon it did great work again in planning it. What I did say was it felt as Kohlingens moment in every aspect nonetheless. Perhaps simply due to Kohlingen having very active DM's to arrange stuff.

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

What event was that, Magiros? Just curious.

Let me elaborate a bit on a point I made about expectations. Please do not take it offensively, as it is a point made only to oromote reflection: might the feelings of frustration and helplessness be symptoms of a player-driven desire to be the problem solver, the sole breadwinner in the resolving element? Remove that desire and acknowledge the gravity and you may find yourself immersed in the tragedy of it. How does your PC dral with hopelessness? What mechanisms do they devise to cope? Does the sudden necessity become the mother of invention? These all make it more about the character experience than the player experience.

But in all fairness, you cannot control how you feel. I can only suggest alternative ways to approach a problem.

It was Triumvirs massacre, Neo-Vodak. The first DM event that tried to kill her, not intentionally, but still. Had Ael died there, I would have permakilled her happily. I was only in the theater play, though I saw through the scene of the male actor being a zombie and about to kill the famous actress... I did not want to stop it, I wanted blood be spilled. I didn't continue in the plot after that event, yet my char remained traumatized and for a half a year never went to Triumvir, even spoke to everyone not go there.


I don't mind Ael being helpless, or myself being helpless. I more often than not try to turn to other characters and their players to solve things. The Ostavhn thing has been very much of Ael trying to act as she knew what was going on and giving out "clear picture" but the other char heavily involved being actually the one to confirm her thought in most cases. Whether he knew it or not. What I want from plots is to be included and not simply be excluded. I found out that the key to remain was to gain some key information which others did not have or had no means getting or very small means of getting it, keep it and you stay in. Give it out and your rather quickly left out.

And hopelessness.. Weeell.. Thanks to you murderous DM's she has been there quite often. Respects to Peeves/Ego and Silki on that. But in one case it was done by Pc's as well, was absolutely beautifully conducted treatment.

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

Personally, I enjoy when I randomly run into an event, and Saya being Saya, I usually only catch glimpses here and there of big major events. When I get to the bigger ones, anyway, usually it is 3 or 4 players that have the solutions to everything that will deal with it, and no matter what you say, it won't work or be considered (my personal experience, I don't want my answer to be rant, so I leave it at that)

I will however say this -> Smaller events that occur ON THE SPOT, that are pretty much random, are so much more entertaining than bigger lagfests that lasts for months and months. The best kind, however, are those that are fairly personal to the character, uncalled for, and which leaves a tangible and entertainment mark on how the character will be roleplayed later on.



That kind of event beats -ANY- big plot event in my opinion.

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Account Name: Karnak_71
Character Name: Hanamori Saya
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=68657&p=1134526#p1134526

There's tragedy and hopelessness, yes. I'm not denying that there should definitely be feelings of that; like I said, if the good guys won all the time, it'd be boring, and just winning all the time and being happy always doesn't give one much room to roleplay, in itself.

The problem, however, is that constantly being beaten down, constantly being rendered useless and broken, creates scars on a character. One can only go so long without a chance at avenging a wrongdoing, or having these wounds fester for months on end. The issue I have with this is when a PC is traumatized by an event, and then left entirely to their own devices. That's a consequence of being so player-run, and in a lot of cases, that opens up more roleplaying possibilities.

But when DMs simply slap misfortune upon misfortune upon a PC, without a care for how it might affect said PC, as if it's simply something that happens without any followup, is quite frankly insulting. Several DMs have given my characters the chance to not only react, but to carry out that reaction, in the context of the character development and the plot. But so many others have denied me even the choice of being able to do this.

Scars that are inflicted upon a character, wounds that are never allowed to heal or close, add up. Characters shouldn't have to rely entirely on PCs who may or may not be related to the plot to get some form of closure from something a DM inflicted. Characters should be allowed a chance to take vengeance, right a wrongdoing, or given the tools and option to move on in a way they deem fit, even if ultimately it doesn't work out the way they wanted, or planned for.

It should not be the status quo that NPCs can simply get away with anything and everything, every time, regardless of character input; by their very nature, player characters are unique, and being unique, shake the status quo of a setting by virtue of being PCs in the first place. Ultimately, player characters are special because of their ability to do this; a villain in the story is something trying to defend this status quo, in that they're trying to remain alive, and successfully carry out their plans, in the face of heroic efforts. The greatest drama and tension, I think, comes from the tension and uncertainty on both sides. This applies not just to PCs versus NPCs, but PCs versus other PCs, as well, even more so in the latter case because, as I said, PCs by their nature oppose the status quo, and especially in PC conflict, nothing is set in stone.

The status quo exists to be disrupted by PCs, and all-powerful, invincible NPC villains merely make the efforts, hardships, struggles, triumphs and defeats of PCs irrelevent, because god-like NPCs can simply erase all the efforts that characters have done to change the world. It's contrived on an in-character level, and disrespectful OOCly to the player and the character he or she has created, and poured creative and emotional investment into.

The bottom line is that not everything should have to go a character's way, but they should have the room, and the chance, to make it so. It shouldn't be shot down out of hand, as I've seen and experienced many times before.

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I play...
Mihaela-Luminița Sămășescu, Paladin of Torm

And the Ostland plot started long after some other ones started that are still dragging along.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

This. Always this. Yes, there are outliers, but they are rare, and far between.

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Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

Yup. I usually just give up when an event gets flooded by the usual people because I'm tired of elbowing myself into attention.

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Characters:
Elder Torsten Eadgarsson
"He’d only shown the best of intentions. Firm but not unreasonable. Eager to protect what was his but not eager to overextend his reach, to push himself on to others."

Just wanted to add - I am also very glad that there even are events! Thanks to the staff.

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Account Name: Karnak_71
Character Name: Hanamori Saya
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=68657&p=1134526#p1134526

Hrmm..

I'm wondering what the true consensus is on our progress in dealing with this All-Star plot involvement. I know quite a few DM's have been actively trying to involve newer folk that aren't as accustomed to being involved in larger plots.

The reason why I don't yet remain convinced that progress hasn't been made, is opportunity cost. Happy, or even content individuals aren't going to so vehemently oppose those who still remain not involved.

The way I can best describe this opportunity cost is through a worker's strike. Those who lost their jobs are more willing to get up and strike, because the alternative is no money being made. While those who would stand in defense of the status quo have more to lose by vocally striking in opposition of the original strikers, because the alternative would be making money.

Translate that "money" to fun, and involvement being the issue, and one might see a parallel structure to the example-- which makes me simply uncertain if the entire playerbase feels this way. On the assumption that those who have voiced their opinions here are all correct, then what we would see in a consensus is a vast majority of players feeling this same way as those voiced here, against a slim minority of players who are always involved in plots (In the most extreme case even, only 3-4 players saying they don't have problems at all finding involvement in plots).

Before I go any further, I want to make something very clear-- I am not dismissing any of the concerns here. After this next proposed step, my next goal is trying to figure out how to get those remaining involved who are having difficulty. Simply put, I think acquiring an accurate consensus of the playerbase's opinion on this matter will help determine if what we're doing now is effective and in the right direction, or if we need to push harder-- Or if we need to simply change courses outright. Granted, this entire post of mine is just focusing on one aspect of the recently spoken feedback. There are others that I can touch on later-- like the destructive nature of plots, player possessions, player plot freedoms, and the like.

So at this time, I would like to invite a group of players to voice their opinions here as well: I'm looking for the opinion of people who do not believe themselves to be an All-Star, yet feel they have been more involved in plots recently than ever before: Do you feel an improvement? Do you feel a gap lessening, or widening? Have you been more involved in DM-plots now than before? Were these larger plots, or smaller plots? What about how much influence your character is able to have on said plot?

Edit: Ahh, to note-- I'm still equally welcoming the opinions of those who do not believe themselves to be an All-Star, and still feel no progress is being made. It just seemed that those people were already posting! I'm just looking for more opinions on this matter, really-- with a little urging to those who might be comfortable and thus, more quiet.

I'm not asking this for a pat on the back, please don't mistake me. I'm trying to build a consensus of opinions, and if we want to make any real changes, we should do it with welcomed feedback from all sides of the matter.

I'm going to consider myself one of these people. Since my return from hiatus from July, I literally jumped straight in to the Shekat plot and gradually went through several plots from then until now. Currently, in terms of DM-lead plots, I am a part of two that are gradually unfolding and one that is put on hold until the new year. So with that out of the way, time for me to say my piece.

I find the issue isn't All-Stars turning up, it's All-Stars turning up when... well, it seems like there's no point of them turning up. This seems like a harsh and bitter thing to say, but here's an anonymous and vague scenario that occurred during one of these plots. Those involved had been stuck finding out how to solve X in the past two events. It seemed as if that if X wasn't solved, there would be dire consequences for everyone involved and a local NPC population. On the third event, a character turned up to (what seemed to a lot of us) out of the blue. The character was known in the area but had previously not attended the past two events and is what I'd label an All-Star. During the third event, there was an ultimatum, but said All-Star and their previous lore of the subject allowed them to solve X in a matter of moments entirely based on themselves, which made the past two event seems like we should have just drafted this person in.

I don't think people care if a plot contains the same characters because, well, a plot needs a cast and one that is prominent to the story. I think people care that the same characters seem to find any way possible of inserting themselves to influence a plot that does not largely involve them. This is why I understand the desire for faction-lead plots, while you will see the same few people being involved you know that it's within their IC interest to be there. With a large-scale plot, you risk a lot more of the only reason for them being involved is OOC or, to mention some sort of taboo here, for the DCs.

Those are the characters in the plots, now on to the plots themselves.

The ones I have been involved with have been half and half short and long term. I was not an influence during the Shekat events, however I saw a few players allow the plot to shape who they are, hell I'll even name drop and say Tom was the prime example of this. That was a short event. The Orcus events that lead their attacks near the Dale formed some amazing character development on my side and many of those directly invested in Nihi's plots near the Dale, even if it was subject to aforementioned All-Star issue during the fights. That was a short event.

I'm not going to belittle any DM's plot, but the few long term ones I'm involved with tends to equate to nothing more than rumour chit-chat on a personal level, instead it directs itself to those who have some sort of control over the plot on a player level. This effectively pushes other players to the status of NPCs with commentary, which isn't bad really, but if the ones with control are the All-Stars and the ones who are being pushed down are the players who want to have their character involved in something that will develop them in a way that the player can not predict then we do in fact have a problem.

The solution will always have to be aimed at DM-side sadly, we simply can not ask the players of these All-Stars to go "Hey, yeah, sure I'll back down from event-jumping" and expect everyone to do that, hell we don't even need to say anything like that at all. The plots going on right now are fine, however there needs to be some DMs who are either not doing plots currently or being recruited to fulfil a, in my opinion, vital role of adding spontaneity to the server. Get DMs to do random events, one-offs, small storylines or even an incredibly amazing and highly sought one-on-one plots that will see people think they have a role in Amia!

I'd like to also point to a fun fact. I've noticed in the DM praise thread that the most amount of responses seem to happen when there's either a small event that people enjoy (Such as whatever happened with this Bro-dog), the event leaves an impact on the character and in some cases the player or the plot either ramps itself up a notch with a battle or political debate or something like that. By no means a reliable source to tell me so, but I'd say either people are quick to praise these things or it's something that actually matters and leaves enjoyment to them.

My final point is that we only have one DM who outright says Player-plots are one of their areas of focus, to save you opening Personnel I'll say that's Burningoutbright. Perhaps seeing if some of you DMs who aren't busy with plots or feel like doing something new should seek investment in this. I know that the good feeling you give to the players will be the exact same you receive back.

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With such a diverse player base, everyone's going to have a differing preference of how they enjoy plots and it's going to be impossible for the DM team to cater to everyone.

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Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.

I'm keeping an eye on this thread as both of my plotlines have currently been mentioned. Evaluations and after action reviews are a vital process... and I'm listening.

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Plays:

"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."

In my opinion only the Cordor plot should raise concern. Do not get me wrong here, it is the most awesome plot and story that I've ever been involved, however:

It looks like an ever unfolding plot, started years ago when Amia was a single server with overhelming amount of playerbase, which had at least 25% hanging around in Cordor East. The Cordor plot made them leave (harpers, nobles, terrorists, Sharrans, adventurers, Mystrans, monsters!) and spread around the server, making a player boom in the back then (2008) haunted areas such as Kohlingen for example.

Now I would say that it is a bit too much.....and personally I do not think that server can actually afford to mess up the starting area, where the new players should hope for their first interaction with other players.

However, I can see the plot unfolding and I would like to state again: the plot itself is awesome!.....and it definitely deserves a proper ending.

As for the player involvement and the involvement of new players....I doubt that there will be ever a solution for that. I have been in both ends before and I do not consider myself among the All-Stars. Since last year when I had Yaston removed I took two long breaks and whenever I returned I saw a bunch of new folks getting positions in factions, plotlines. I would actually consider that a good sign.

My 0.02$

I'm not directly involved in plots, per se, but I'm connected with someone who is. Lately, from the time I was playing Calamaiel a lot until now and keeping track of what DM events I can I have to say they have become rather...dark. Children being slaughtered, having all their blood drained, women getting their children ripped from their womb, and all that.

Isn't that a bit...much? Where does the no graphic torture rule come into play with this? I get that most of us are adults and expect things like this, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere. And I also understand that various people can take different level of graphic torture, and have different variations of what graphic torture means.

Let's say I'm a woman who has recently gone through a miscarriage and wants to play Amia to take my mind off of that. The last thing I want to do is log in and read about a woman getting her child cut from her womb, and so, I wouldn't play until that event was over, if ever again depending on how busy I became.

That's one example out of many, but it's just that; an example. There, of course, can be many more. All I'm trying to say is, perhaps tone it down on how graphic events are. I don't need a detail version of how the baby was ripped from the womb, or how the child was slaughtered, or how much blood there is down to the units. While I know that I would not, as that woman from the example who had a miscarriage, have to get directly involved with the event but DM events aren't meant to affect only one area and one area only, and one specific group of people - at least in my opinion. I know from playing in DM events that when one happens that looks like it will be an on-going plot, people are going to talk about it and some won't spare you the gory details.

All I'm asking is for a bit more consideration to the masses as a whole when it comes to DM events, not just for those select few who are able to be on all the time, and can stand certain...things. No one can read minds, but we should all be able to tell what level is reasonable and what level is crossing the line.

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I don't know; I'm actually quite happy with how I see the most recent plots developing, but then again, my main ICly is highly aloof and uncaring about any of them. To be honest, while Im playing as him, it's all happy, white noise in the background that makes him feel like the out-of-touch anomaly he should to me. I like the building of a large server narrative, if in only that my PC may show himself as a jackass by ignoring it.

Though, there is also another underlying reason, I must admit. The Worf Effect. This is something, while I understand why DMs use it, I abhor it with a passion. Of course no PC on this server is the biggest and baddest X of Y. But I really, really do not like when PCs are made to feel powerless for the sake of making the plot seem more serious. So I can empathize with some of those feelings of helplessness. Just the same, having PnP DMed for a while, I understand the frustration of feeling that you cant affect your players at all. The one epic campaign I sat in on, hell, a couple of mages an a cleric can save the whole freaking universe no prob. On an island crawling with them, wonder how some DMs dont tear their hair out. So its a balance between letting PCs feel strong, just as strong as they should and no more, while also not rolling over and setting up cardboard enemies. For that reason, as far as I have seen and been involved with, I think that they are doing a pretty damn good job.

So while it may be nothing personal, and hell, may even be needed to advance the story, I dont like to think that my PC is there just to be torn down to make a point, you know? And I completely understand that, from both sides. I encourage players to not feel they're so big that you cant be hurt and just as well I challenge DMs to avoid making any pc or group of pcs that they are only there to be hurt or avoid being hurt.

Im sorry to say I cant agree with the argument that the plots have become too graphic. When the game mechanically lets you pop another humanoid creature into giblets before your eyes, I dont see how describing a dismembering or mentioning blood should turn off people that much. Unless you're avoiding that part of the game too. If something bloody or traumatic has you down in real life, with all due respect, the last thing I would suggest you do is play a game where violence is a high likelihood. If someone is forcing you to join in their graphic RP with your own PC thats one thing, but if you opt to get your PC into a story involving monsters and blood mages and gorillas with chainsaw hands, that was your choice, and you can hop out at any time. There are plenty more tame plots to join in, or better yet, you can start yourself. You dont shut down the hot dog stand because one person saw how the sausage was made and found it nauseating. Not when there is a Green Peace-sponsored tofu food truck across the street.

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I have been playing here for a few months, and have been involved to a small degree in a couple plots, mainly because I happened to be in the right place at the right time, but I have no idea how to get involved in a plot in a more on-going manner and I am sure there are many like me.

A great way to get more new people involved in DM events would be for a DM to design something for a relatively low-level group, and then look for some new people to invite into it. I don't know how much a DM can see about who is on and what level they are, etc, but if it is possible they could look and see maybe 4 or 5 people who are on toons of the appropriate level who are new or just generally not the people who that DM knows are always involved in plots, then send them a tell and say "If you want to participate in a special event go to such-and-such location." Once they get the number of people they need for the event, run it with those people and see what happens. I'm not talking about anything long, maybe just a unique run through a dungeon, with one special area or something. It should not take more than an hour or two to complete. These types of short events would get new people involved in the lore of the server and help them understand how to participate in DM events.

DM's could also create "mini-events" by just possessing an NPC and have that NPC talk to the next toon of the proper level who happens to pass by, and ask them to do some type of simple quest, maybe even something as simple as "I lost my backpack with some valuable documents in it in this location" and ask the PC to recover it. These types of things wouldn't even require the DM to focus on just that event, they could give out different "jobs" to different people and just spawn an item at the proper location, then wait and see if the player is able to find it. Perhaps make it somewhere that the player can't survive on his own, so the player has to recruit some allies. This takes the work of putting together the group off the DM's hands. Also these kinds of events don't have to have a "solution". If the player fails to recover the item, he doesn't get a reward, maybe the NPC is unhappy, but there is no critical threat to the survival of island that requires the "All-Stars" to get involved.

Just to clarify, as far as I'm aware-- that whole act with the child womb thing was not a DM event.

Being a DM on this server must be horrible.
It's impossible to keep everyone happy and you don't even get paid.
If I was in their position it would take all of my will not to spawn a couple of Invulnerable Shadow Dragons at the next event.

I mean... we all saw the threads over the past 6-18 months, right? People wanted more World changing opportunities, bigger scaled events, big epic plot lines, the ability to influence mass changes in the world. Now that they get these opportunists they suddenly want more smaller quests and personalized mini events spanning one reset cycle.

Well knock me down with a feather.

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Little Libba
Roruk Steelshadow
Morten Morrowcroft

I agree with him, while I don't mind that Earalenia and her friends are left battered and down for a while I don't think it's sensible to leave a group of characters with epic power completely helpless. Not only does this helplessness lead to frustration, it makes people return to the same old characters that they know can do something about it.

I think that is what the all-stars have in common, that they are able to an impact on plots much more than the common adventurer. Either are they people with great influence and status, or they are powerful casters. While I don't mind the all-stars being involved in a plot I often get left with the feeling that it is the same people that are able to do something about the plots.

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I am not weird, I am limited edition

I rather like the big plot myself and I think the DM's are doing an awesome job on it. Especially how well they seem to meshing it together between several DM's. Its really impressive.

My only slight frusteration is timezones with the DM's the most involved being in the USA and me being a euro, it can be annoying to see things progressed while you were asleep with you being unable to try and influence it. But that cant be really helped.

I do agree with Magiros that DM attention isnt equally spread between factions. I'd love to see something happening in the grove to shake things up there and I am happy to brainstorm/ work with a DM to set something up. Personally I feel each faction should have an active DM to work with even as an occasional hiatus is needed.

I disagree with the allstars comments. I have seen people who cant be considered all stars making an impact. The 'allstars' often coordinate things in plots which tends to involve them but also take little initiative as far as I see, they set others to do that (to involve them.) But there is some luck involved with looking in the right way and being online at the right time.

All in all I think Amia has wonderfull DM's who really work and plot hard to make the place better for us players. Keep up the good work and thank you!

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Characters played:

Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar
Elloanore (Travelling bard)

I disagree, to some extent.

I think it's fair to say that I'm an obnoxious all-star on an OOC level - I stick my nose everywhere on the forums - but I've never been one IC since I became DM and basically retired Kir'nack. I have been delighted to take part in several larger storylines lately and get involved in just the appropriate capacity for my character: adviser, observer, researcher, and to some extent poor diplomat. When I decided to get Joon involved and into a position of some leverage, Yossarin rolled with my ideas and it landed Joon a job in the library. The other important factor is the Blue Skies Academy. Having some position and affiliation with known institution lends an air of authority that makes people take you seriously. They think you're in the know more than you are, and you have an easier time doing stuff. Moral of the story: don't be afraid to pursue your PC's career as ruthlessly (mostly IC) as you would any other job. If you're too modest to push yourself center-stage, or at least into the appropriate supporting role for your PC, it's hardly a surprise that you get sidelined. That's the way the world works, not exclusive to Amia.

However, apart from Yossarin's help, none of this has been due to DM initiative or interaction. A DM didn't contact me (as a DM) and ask to involve me in their story. And they probably shouldn't (though as representative of the foremost anti-chronomantic church who's already done research on the topic, getting an IC hint about changing timelines would have been nice - and yet I realize DMs can't know everything about every PC, and I did become active a bit late to the party). Instead, I have All-Star players to thank for my involvement. Bobo/Andrew recruited people into the school in a player capacity - an opportunity still open that few seem interested in taking up. It was Joon's first step back into the game. If not for Serbiris pestering me, I probably would have been a lot less active and enthusiastic about what goes on in Amia. And most recently, I'm very thankful to Dusty/Eli for thinking about my PC. The support of these three guys, in addition to my own effort at networking, was the way for me to get involved. I must also give props to Phearnun, who has several times over the years approached me for something that might be fitting for my PC, even if nothing major has come of it yet - all the more appreciated, given how obnoxious and difficult a PC he plays.

So I do think player initiative goes a long way, and the "All-Stars" should acknowledge their responsibility and great power in involving or shutting out other players. DMs can only do so much. Two of the four players I named are/were also DMs at the time. It's hardly a coincidence that they're the kind of people who try to involve others. My experience getting to know the other "All-Stars" has been fairly positive as well, and many of them have encouraged my PC to pursue his goals. But I think we need to always keep in mind that we, as players, can collectively do a lot more to involve everyone than the few DMs with their limited resources.

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Firstly I'm -really- enjoying this thread for the input and the opinions that others have about DM plotlines. As far as the same old characters I agree that they -do- jump in and take over. Guilty here too with my toon. One thing that I do -try- to do is to IC'ly get others involved that normally wouldn't be. Simply asking not necessarily giving orders or even -paying- someone to gather some information to keep them involved give the player and toon something to do and the feeling of being part of something. I've even just out of the blue helped some lowby on a simple quest and blocked xp lol when I remembered to. It wasn't anything major but it got someone involved and a dm even jumped in unexpectedly having a mini-event completely random. So yeah basically the players that have the same old characters involved time after time that inevitably just come out of -nowhere- when something important happens apparently coming out of there pseudo-suspended animation chambers after not being seen for a few months it would be nice if you tossed a bone to some of the newbies on the server and worked to get them involved as well. I'm not pointing any fingers here of course simply agreeing with the above quote offering a solution.

So in short I have to say Kudos to the DM's as I -know- trying to keep a balance and an ongoing plotline is difficult lol especially when the "villian" shows up to taunt the "heroes" and you don't want him/her killed just yet. I wouldn't consider that metagameing from the dm'side since I find that being dm powers which, for the most part at least in PnP, is unlimited. Just game mechanics makes it possible that -some- things dm's don't want to happen actually happens and they have to roll with that or do something drastic to keep the main plot "villian/NPC" alive as the laughter mocking echoes taunt the heroes with promises he or she will be back lol.

That said I do think a sense of fullfillement -could- be reached if the DM's would offer up a sacrificial -mini- boss the heroes could capture and interogate or simply kill outright that really is not anything or anyone that would interfere with the plotline, in fact possibly be planned to further the plotline along. This 'sacrificial boss' could be built up but eventually be set on a course of possible destruction. As far as plotlines go, especially with villians, lol some henchmen are simply expendable. Maybe on the dead mage or dreaded Blackguard someone would find a letter carelessly place in the pocket of the miniboss arrogantly thinking they couldn't be beaten. Upon them being beaten though the letter with clues could be found leading to some other planned adventure. The main thing I think is a problem is getting your ass handed to you everytime a dm event occurs especially with a toon that can solo epic bosses is unnerving, possibly shocking and in some cases detrimental to the continued want to play that particular toon or participate in any given event.

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Calypso (Lady Calypso, Caly)
Stormy Dawn (Ar'ellin'ah)
Kisuri'ou Yoru (Ryuko)

Favored Quote:
"This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man." -Shakespeare

I've never felt Crow to be an "All-Star", even if he's directly involved with a DM event. He has always been a "behind-the-scenes" type of character, and that's why he fits well in the Grove. (the Grove not being an 'in your face, look what I can do' *cough*Kohlingen*cough* faction) Crow has refused offers, and also bowed out of large scale, and small scale DM events, simply because of his nature, or the fact my computer can't handle more than two people with moderate spells, just hunting. He's also seen a lot of frustration IC, because of trying to get some things motivated, or simply being ignored, but he hangs in there, regardless.

Do I see improvement?
Yes, I do, the DM and Dev team is much more active now, than ever. I have to admit some plots are dragging a bit, and it's frustrating IC to wait for ...what I don't know, and have to come up with excuses as to why nothing is happening. Aside from that, I see a lot happening, and moving along just fine. And I see many new characters, and players involved in things as well. There may be a bit of favoritism going on, but consider the fact that some of us have invested years into our characters, which would have an impact on reputation. These solid characters, provide lots of opportunities for new characters to rise up. If they have what it takes to stick it out, through the slow times, they too, can have that reputation so coveted by many. Of course, some characters shine bright and fade away, just like real life.

I personally, don't see a gap, and some DM plots have been going on for a long time, and just now coming to a climax. We can't have all the plots finalized at the same time. The DM's are concentrating on the Cordor thing right now, when that stalls, or is over, they will go to the next one. They aren't ignoring the other long term plots, and do things to keep them going, in the mean time.

As far as Crow being involved in more or less plots, I would have to say more now, than ever before. But again, he is behind the scenes, and was never a glory hound, preferring not to blow his own horn about everything he's done, or can do, or will do. Hell, he gave his life, to try and save two people from execution, then slipped away after a True Resurrection, while everyone talked about the event. There's plenty more too, where Crow was directly involved, and got no credit for, but I, as well as he, is True Neutral, and could care less. Crow is also more prone to being in player plots, than being an "All-Star", in the larger DM plots, where he is involved, but much more low key.

Influence?
Heh, Crow has always had little influence, no one listens to him. He's foreseen so many things, and brought them to light, only to be ignored. That is, until an "All-Star" happens to say the same thing he did, and gets the credit for it. But he's used to it, and just does what he does. I think Crow's influence is on a different level than plotlines, and more focused on actual characters.

Where size of events is concerned, my opinion, is keep them smaller.
The final battle with Eriadorr was proof of that, even with the main characters and players, in a state of confusion. There were over thirty people there, buffed to the nines, and running to and fro. It was a nightmare, and the wall of text so confusing, there was little to do but wait, and let a few try and talk or act. At least until it was time to point, click, and die, and then watch the free-for-all mythal gathering. That many people was just ridiculous, and this on a mission that was supposedly 'secret', heh, right. I understand some events will have a boatload of PC's, but really, they should be fewer and far between. I personally, have more fun in a smaller, more controlled event, than a typical hack-n-slash, where 3/4 of the server is there.

Just my opinions.

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I don't want these so called "All-Stars" to be asked to step back. I enjoy having been able to interact with some of them. And in most cases they only took advisory position, my character in some cases made it clear even that they should not be involved directly.

However, it would be nice to have active Winya Ravana DM. As a long-time elf player, we have had a long history of changing DM's, not much happening Winya-wise. In some sense it feels that Winya Ravana is not that important, even when we had around 12-15 elf players online at the same time, a prime opportunity to increase the activity in Winya and get something going that might have made some stay more permanently. I hate it when people speak of Winya Ravana and state "Ah, it is just normal that Winya has times when people don't log in or log a lot, its seasonal." Whereas, I do believe that if there was some activity happening in Winya Ravana there might be more players logging on elfs. Of course we players have a great place there, but as a player who has been working a lot to arrange such events, it is very hard to get anything happening without a DM sometimes, especially we need DM response, such has been tried to gain by PM's, but as we never knew if our research worked, the intended smith-project died. :/

And I intentionally focus on Winya Ravana as I want to see something happening, something that involves the players who have created so fine elven characters. In most cases I've needed to go outside of Winya Ravana to get involved in a plot.

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

From a player perspective, I actually agree with a lot of things Iron's saying.

Before I was a DM, I wouldn't be surprised to be considered an All-Star-- I was working with Aylomen pretty thoroughly, leading crusade campaigns, factions, etc. Even now, as I play frequently-- it wouldn't surprise me if the thought lingered.

But what I hope, however, is that the people I interact with in my various organizations and circles see that differently. Rather close to what Iron was saying, as an All-Star player, you have a tremendous capability to influence and encourage others, or empower them also into a neat position. As a faction leader, my number one responsibility, for example, was finding things for people to do. Whether it was the Dawnguard or the Syndicate, they became as large as they did because I was able to see folk in RP, and figure out a way to involve them in whatever I was doing. It was my most difficult creative task, and my most rewarding.

But this isn't about building a faction. Its about building Rp. Involving others. Naturally, this is easier to do when you've got responsibilities you can give to others. For example, its easier for a Boss to hand out jobs to numerous employees, than it would be for an employee to do the same to another employee. But it isn't impossible, either! It simply requires a dedicated effort.

I challenge all of you, All-Star and not, to find ways to involve others in your RP.

I also have to begrudgingly agree with some sentiments from Iron's previous post, in regards to a "The way the world works." However, just because its our paradigm, doesn't mean that we can't make ourselves aware of how it works-- and through that information, work to make it more comfortable. Some of these All-Star players have achieved a lot of what they have through natural charisma, wit, a sort of 'political' placement-- that has earned them extensive resources, practiced authority, and lots of contacts. I'm not trying to make a judgment statement on whether its right or wrong, I'm simply trying to paint it in a sober picture. That all being said, what I would like to do is make a very thorough guide or outline that can equip players who are feeling outside the circle with the tools necessary to get involved, influential, and stay that way.

Because there is a method to the madness. The groups of players I've built and the initiatives I've started have all been rather intentional moves. I've put the same knowledge in the hands of other players, and I've seen their own initiatives working similarly. There are ways, put simply, to seize the stage-- and to do it in a way that invites others onto it with you. For me, its always been really rewarding to have a lot of other players up there with me. Dawnguard, Syndicate, Shevarashans, and more.


Its a really complex issue. And I find myself erasing a lot of what I'm typing, because I really don't want to come off as offensive, or uppity. I care what you guys think, and I really dislike that players are feeling ignored or non-involved. But I have to emphasize that 80% of it comes from what the players/characters choose to do before a DM ever gets involved.

In short, I don't think the All-stars should step back. I think they should turn around and help folk up. Empower them with influence and, importantly, opportunity. They've worked hard to be where they're at, in every case I can think of. And in their authority, they have a very unique power to more actively, and in a more in-depth way, empower other characters who are on the rise.

And conversely, I think non All-stars should actively work to get up on there, and not wait for it to be handed to them. (Before any negative response crops up, this is not always the case. I certainly don't think players are just sitting around waiting for things to happen to them). Instead, I think that they might be working in a different direction than the one that often finds itself on stage. So I'm going to try to make a sort of guideline that might help shine some light on something that is usually subconscious.

And at the same time-- the DM team will be working to reach out toward players who aren't getting involved. In large plots and in small.

Yoss should be spanked hard for ever having used the term all-star. >.>

Yeah, that was one of the things I hated in my posts. I feel like using it further makes it a thing. But its the easiest and shortest way to describe a sense of recurring favoritism among a crowd of players. xD

And you should be spanked hard to define the all-stars as those who simply enjoy reccuring favoritism by the DMs. >.>

Well, you said sense. But everytime the all-star discussion comes up it is just frustrating, as in the recent months it has been beaten dead repeatedly.

So I lost a huge post due to being logged out while typing it out.. yay. So maybe I can make a more compact version of that original post.


First of all, I do very much agree with Earalenia on the disparity in the ability of different classes to have an impact on events. With a rogue based main character, I've had a number of very frustrating experiences where my character stood around basically just making idle commentary while a few wizards engaged in an hour long session of arcanobabble and cast a few PnP spells that I only have a hazy understanding of, and this is coming from someone who played and DMed D&D 3.x for twelve years. It's gotten to the point for me where I mostly try to avoid events that will involve wizards. And for the ones I still end up in, I've come very close to just demanding that everyone not use any PnP stuff, and I don't want to be that guy.

Do I think this is the fault of the DMs? Not really. It's what I get for playing a rogue in 3.0 D&D. They don't call it the caster edition for nothing. As a DM myself, I know how frustrating it is to have an entire encounter defeated by the casting of a single spell that you weren't completely aware of. So I can understand how over time the staff has come to design a lot of their events around the use of such spells. And then there's the fact with that the ready availiability of pseudodragons and umber hulk scrolls makes the main feature of the stealth character.. stealth.. useless.. but that's a matter for another thread. How can you make the fighter and rogue types feel more included in events? I would say the good start is to make the puzzles somewhat less esoteric. Have that fighter put their 38 strength to use by moving some boulders out of the way, or put more intricate locks, traps or whathaveyou there for rogues to deal with. Small stuff to make us feel like we're part of the events, rather than just bystanders.

And now, on the subject of big events. My favourte part of Amia is the factional intrigue and politics. I love espionage, muckraking, rumourmongering and all that. It's why I think that Tarkuul is really the place to be, and perhaps in theory Kohlingen if it wasn't always a complete ghost town when I go there to interact with them despite what I keep hearing about it being so active. For me, the player and staff interaction in Tarkuul makes me feel like my interactions with the factions of Tarkuul have a real impact on the server at large, even if just a small one. And that's really cool. In my ideal world, all of the factions of Amia would have cooperation between Players and DMs, and then we could pit all these factions against eachother and see where it goes. THere is some amount of that already, of course, and it's great. However, I think that often times this potential for factional conflict gets muscled out of the way in favour of large monolithic evils that are meant to be rallied against by all. Despite this though, I'm actually quite impressed with the ability of the powers that be to continue undercutting and backstabbing eachother even with this impending apocalypse. I just can only wonder how much longer this state of affairs can continue.

And finally, I'd like to give my thoughts on the issues sorrounding plot events and Bendir Dale. As someone who has primarily played Bendirites, I hope I can offer some insight. The recent events have left a number of us feeling quite bitter, I think. And there seems to be a bit of disconnect between the admittedly now quite small playerbase of Bendir Dale and the staff. I think the main reason this disconnect exists is because we sort of pride ourselves in Bendir for not getting involved in the politics of the island and instead busy ourselves with gossip and the like. And in the situations where we have tried to communicate our feelings and wishes, it's always been around certain breaking points, and as such were done with tempers flared. So it kind of perpetuates the current state of affairs where the Staff is seemingly unable to understand our wishes, and we are unable to communicate them effectively, leading to bitterness and discontent on the part of the Bendir community. So I'll do my best to remedy this somewhat. In Bendir Dale, we have certain beliefs we hold very strongly. Probably our most important belief, and most likely source of a lot of frustration, is that we don't like things being taken too seriously around Bendir Dale. We always want to keep a light and socialable mood, where anyone can stop by to visit, relax and feel welcomed. Where folk can get up to date on all the gossip and generally enjoy a rather light hearted social RP environment. Probably the next in order of importance would be our commitment to not becoming militarized, militant or factionalized. We want to keep out of the factional politics of the island so that we can attract a larger base of players to come and socialise with us. We've even stopped banishing followers of Dark Gods to this end. Tying in with this is our drive to be self sufficient. Through hard work and also less reputable means we look after our own. In summary, we feel very strongly about hospitality, good natured fun, a light social environment and our independance. Until recently, it's something I've always felt good about while playing a hin from Bendir Dale. Now when I go to Bendir Dale, I'm to deal with impending famine, war and destruction, where everyone is in a dour, often tight lipped mood and no one feels up to playing pranks or telling so many jokes, as they might be seen in bad taste with the current state of affairs. I mean, on one hand, my character is struggling towards saving her people from starvation in a now barren land while seeking to combat a great and ancient evil, whihc does pretty badass, and i do have to give props to those behind these events for turning Souris into a much more deep character than I ever thought she would be. But at the same time, it gets more and more discouraging for me, and I think also the other still active hin players, the more the currently very gloomy state of affairs in Bendir Dale continues. We feel absolutely helpless and in despair. And well, it's just plain depressing. So depressing that I haven't even logged in for two days now and am debating going on a lengthier hiatus.

Anyways, sorry for the massive textwall, but that's my two cents.

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NWN Login: Havicus

Active Characters:
Souris, Former Bendir Dale Councillor, now alleged assassin and general hobo
Haren Mariq, Witch of the Southwestern Wind, and High Poultrymancer
Elaneth Merwick, Elfling Arcane Archer

The "All-Stars" is a fairly neutral term, IMO. You could probably verify it empirically if you had a script that detected mentions of a character's name in game. Fame feeds itself, we see it in celebrity culture all the time. Famous painters, musicians, politicians, writers are all disproportionately represented and respected in discourse and practice. The gap between the actual merits of the "top" and the average is a lot smaller, but once you cross the news threshold references increase exponentially. If that is something people resent and think they could do away with, they need a reality check.

The one point in this topic I fully agree with is the relative inbalance between classes. It's big enough mechanically, and the generous use of PnP spells in DM events only makes it worse. Yeah, I've used Commune too, but it all probably does more harm than good.

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And in a sense, I have to also admit that it has a very hard impact on people that are considered to be "All-stars". It really does. Its made people burn out and quit out of peer pressure, feeling like no matter what they do, they're viewed as pushing players aside and consequently being hated for it. Can you imagine being paralyzed as a player by the fear of continuing any involvement you were once a part of, for fear of appearing like the people you're painting them out to be? The complaints are directed toward a handful of players in a pretty mean way sometimes.

I don't know a single case where an alleged "All-star" player has purposefully made your roleplaying experience negative. Or gone out of their way to push a player aside. I just don't know of any example of that, in all my time. But every time this comes up, its a very passive aggressive hit against these players-- when instead of their own intention to harm your experience, its just the nature of community dynamics.

I also understand criticism as a necessary part of an RP environment, but there's a point where it becomes a negative pressure against a group of players-- in a very dynamic issue I might add--, to the point of unhealthy alienation.

But importantly-- and I really want to stress this: Just because these kind of trends are the nature of social dynamics, doesn't mean that there's nothing we can do about it. What it does mean, however, is that we can stop being angry at the players-- and start working on ways to provide the tools necessary for someone willing to climb the ladder.

Thank you! As someone who takes good pride to being a primarily Hin player, with all my Hin characters have/currently being involved in the community, the war and famine plot was a good stir up, but there seems no... solution for us. In my opinion it seems almost as if Bendir and the Shrine were targeted due to their social hub status (but I doubt this is even the case!).



This point in particular I most feel with. Rico is a Shadowdancer who holds no direct faith with Brandobaris, but having being brought up in Bendir's community with the Harlequins years ago, he sees the fun of playing pranks and generating tales. How can we do things like that if the only people who come to Bendir come to talk of war, death and destruction? If Dian was alive, she would be absolutely miserable with the state of Bendir and the death of the children, but she would want to do something to help, an option that has not opened nor succeeded yet, again appealing to the caster status quo of "It's magic I ain't gotta explain shit" and generally people outside of Bendir Dale.

I'm not going to go into a rant I've been fighting for a long while, so I'll forward to this thread if you want to hear what I'd soon be going on to, but I'd like to see a bit more thought going in to the repercussions of these large scale plots for settlements that get effected but have no active DM support.

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Tanzek's above post is a good example of the problem we are finally addressing: that people think they can create a bubble in which the story and genre of the server doesn't penetrate. I can appreciate that people like different things, but I don't think DMs should have any regard for some settlement or faction's wishes to ignore the world around them. I am very harsh about it: if we want a master narrative that spans the server, then people are just going to have to deal with it. I would much rather have a smaller, more compact, story-driven server than the sandbox that has only occasionally risen to excellence over the years. (I am not saying a cosmic danger of Realms-shaking proportions, with not so much for individual parties to do, is necessary the best way to go about the story though. But this is just one chapter in Amia's story, and there will be others.)

Bendir has been given the information and tools to participate. If they don't want to, and if they feel the story isn't in line with their light-hearted OOC plans, there's really very little DMs should do about it. There's been famine a few weeks. Big deal. Acquire blood magic books from abroad, try to reverse the spell, and see what disaster you cause? The reason they were targeted, Yaster, is plain obvious IC, and probably has no OOC motivation related to their "social hub" status. If anything, it should be seen as the DMs reaching out to those groups: "here's your reason to care and your chance to get involved. You're part of the island too"

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I agree it wasn't due to social status at all. Winya Ravana was ravaged by a plague some time ago, just before that by an entity. The Shrine should really expect lolhites coming, as much as we in Winya Ravana should, they be hating us anyhow. Bendir Dale being in the middle of the island, a good trade road connection was natural target, as well the fact it provides food to others as well, by my understanding of their trade.

Kohlingen was sieged, then there was assassinations.. and whatnot. Wharftown was recently attacked I think and Cordor had whole Arcanuum thing. Uhm had some thing take place there as well at one point, can't remember what it was. Cliffside Village was destroyed, Salandrans were assaulted.. and so on and so on.. The fact is, it is happening everywhere, not because what kind of social status it has in or what kind of RP atmosphere it has.

Sure I did not like the plague taking place in Winya Ravana, at all. However, I tried to obtain food supplies from elsewhere to the city, though it turned out we didn't really need them in the end.

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

Well I'm going to say that while yes DMs have the right and power to put their plot points in places where OOCly people don't want it, that's fine. But it leaves us feeling sour because there's not much we can do. There's no Mage Halflings active in the community! In fact 99.99% of the casting population is either Cleric or Druid. How can we expect to dabble in to the arcane side of most events that occur these days when we have no Arcanists? This coupled without a DM taking rein of Bendir Dale (yup going to mention it now) means our RP and progress is stunted the moment another plot overlaps in to Bendir. If we had a DM willing to say "I'm the Bendir Dale DM" we could maybe get somewhere in the RP such as having them possess Muck and roleplay the arcane-side without someone having to make an alt just for these situations! I know that the Dwarves recently lost their only active Arcanist and their settlement DM possessed an NPC for them to perform an Arcane-only RP, the fact we don't have the same opportunity because we lack a DM is sad, especially as before the famine hit there was RP being made in creating a whole new area.

I understand why they were targeted, being involved in the event from another viewpoint, but what irks me is it seems to have been done without much concern with the actual settlements they effect. Even though I'm really enjoying this plot in particular, it's kind of left us... powerless and more aware that we need some support from a DM to progress with somethings, a matter brought up, fought and locked without the fact changing at all yet.

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