AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - My view on DM plots, and how I suggest to improve them

Meh, didn't read up. Ignore.

Quote:

. Any time a DM logs onto his PC, they are in a conflict of interest. I don't care what they're doing-- its a conflict of interest, because of how much we know. All the secrets that took years to culminate, and even details of the plot that have yet to unfold.

This is why I disagree, ultimately, why a DM shouldn't have a player acct as well. I know its extremist, but it's my opinion. NPC's are a DM's 'characters'. I've spent A LOT of time as a dungeon master in my 25+ years of playing D&D, and I liked having an NPC around, but it ended up causing problems as well as solving them. I found that I couldn't focus as much on the things the PC's were interested in because I was trying to play my own character at the same time. When I stopped having my own NPC on my side of the screen, and focused on the elements that my players were focusing on, I found that they were more interested in what I was putting in front of them, they were more engaged, and ultimately had a better playing experience. I've proven this to myself on both sides of the table.
I'm not saying that no one can do it, I'm just suggesting ...SUGGESTING...that we're all human. Shit happens. Remove the variables.

I've also plotted and executed my own characters death in a pnp game. Having to Rp against myself....been there done that. It was fun, yes. But a headache too, trying to separate what I wanted to do with one character while not having to sacrifice my other favorite one. I kept trying to figure a way around loosing my toon, but had to stay honest and let it go down the way it went. The distraction that caused for me is my point here. My lack of focus, and divided attention made the experience a bit harder for the /other/ people to go along with.

Addressing the original post, I don't think I've been in a DM plot, PnP or Amia, where DM's have been here to help, but rather to present a challenge, and the negative consequences of failure of said challenge, and rewards for success.

I skipped everything else, mostly due to lack of time, so I have no idea if this point has been made already.

Either way, negative consequences are part of the experience. Failure to accept that is failure to enrol oneself fully into the concept of realism and their character.

I'll sum up my point of view:

* "All Stars" seldom got to that position they're so claimed to be in cause they wanted to be there. They're hard workers and dedicated fighters in large or at the least have something they bring to the table. A lot of times that's consistancy and solidly playing the specific character. It's noted already that it can burn them out from playing and I can relate to this as I was fitted with the mantle. (Whether or not I am I leave for others to say).

* DMs are working to try to balance plots between interesting, character effecting, and also involving (of the mass of people and players on Amia). That's not an easy trick especially sometimes when you get people who might not care or those who do care won't work in a functional group. The Cordor plot at it's current may suffer this in part, but that's the nature of trying to get Good and Evil together in the same room to work out against a Greater threat. Unfortunately, there's not a simple fix for this

* Some DMs have been accused of using their DM position to unfairly effect plots. This may have been true in some cases (I can't say directly) but I hazard it was not often and these days, the current standing DM team focuses as much on solutions which make it more fair for the PCs working around them to get their time in the sun without being unfair to their own PC and play time.

* I will freely admit, some of the Cataclysmic plots have burned me out as a PC sufficient to want to stay away from them. Especially ones where it seemed the DM's Perogative was being used to stamp out any and all efforts to stop them. Some, I have since reflected and seen where the Perogative was rightly used.

It echoes with Earalenia's statements of not wanting PCs to feel powerless. That's no fun at all. Considering the local concentration of trained Magi, and Clergy though it's kind of hard not to have to deal with some of the spells people call 'Win Buttons' . They forget that those spells may not provide the whole solution. Used properly and with the proper rules, spells can be rendered utterly useless in plots. The trick is leaving some way to achieve the needed goal in place, or perhaps giving a bit when something you'd originally have said no to is presented with points you don't consider.

Please take that as my .02$ for now as I'll be on my way shortly to go out for the day but will be home later.

If its decided that DM's are to remain in client, and never step foot IG with a player character, I'm going to resign. The fact of the matter is that I hugely enjoy playing as a PC.

I'm not seen that frequently running plots, but I spend quite a bit of time dealing with muck and troubles that frees up other DM's to carry on their work. And the kind of "Player first, DM second" mentality gives me a greater empathy for players in trouble.

Extreme stance met with extreme stance I suppose!

Without reading the entirety of this thread, i wish to add my humble feedback to the pile. I share similar concerns as the OP and Revak, in that i have stopped chasing the big plots entirely, and really, have stopped playing on Amia in any reasonable capacity as of late.

The reasons are personal, as in, my particular way of playing [or "career" on Amia, as it were] has left me completely burnt out. Despite numerous prolonged efforts to either introduce an interesting character or faction to "the stage", i am effectively at square one, because nothing i attempted has flourished in any satisfactory manner, in my belief due to the lack of DM-infused storytelling compatible with any of my characters.

In short, i'm not saying the way things are are completely bad, because lots of people enjoy the current DM's work. I'm saying that it's not for me, the approach where DM's do a lot of those huge events that everyone just goes to check out.

I would prefer more small events and DM interactions that would aim to enhance individual players/small groups experience, leading them out to interact with other players/groups, putting the players on the stage, instead of the NPC's.

I'm probably not the typical player here, but I avoid big DM events whenever possible. From the ones I've experienced, there are way too many characters in one place talking, and things move extremely slow. To me, that's not fun. Sometimes I think these are just magnets for people to come and hold out their hand for DCs.

I rather not see the DM PC's gone. They are fun to watch and interact with, when running into them. Plus, the DM's earn their break from Dm:ing constantly.

When I see DM on playerside, I try to avoid bothering them with DM stuff. I know I once send a tell to one, by accident thinkin he/she was on DM side, I felt so ashamed of myself.

And Rigella I've bothered a couple of times as well on player side, her help has been highly appreciated in each occasion and I try to avoid bothering you. Thanks dear! <3

Shadowfiend wrote:

The way I feel, the thing is that you can involve factions as you like, but if you make them a victim at least don't leave them helpless. Maybe DM's are at full right to do so, but you may be ruining people's fun, and less fun means less players. It's frustrating to walk around with your character in her daily rp knowing there's nothing you can do to repair the damage done to your faction.

.. This.. This! The War Knights were just victims in the end and left overall powerless. I know also I cannot do a thing with my cleric of tempus to repair it for it won't ever happen through the hands of a DM.

Yyyyyeah, so I agree with a number of points, specifically that we do need to bring in more smaller, less epic-scale plots. I've been trying to do a bit of that already, but I'm going to expand on that I think, and try and make that a priority. On the other note though, I entirely agree with Hackums that if it were decided that DMs need to shelve their PCs and solely DM, I'd be out of this client in a heartbeat. It's exceptional fun, but I play PCside for reasons other than just fun. (Also, a DMPC in a PnP game is very different from a DM playing a PC on Amia. When we're PCside, we don't have access to our DM powers, we can't fudge the dice and we can't actively influence any NPCs in a way normal Players can't). I also dislike the idea of DMs running the areas that they have PCs of important position in. Every time I can recall that it's happened in the past, it is immediately followed by cries of corruption or favouritism. I don't have any PCs in positions of power, but if I did, I would want to keep my DMing separate from that location to further ensure that there's no conflict of interest.

I've never been involved in a major IMM event so I can't speak on that.

However, these days I'm often around people who are involved in This Week's Crisis of the Century, and that means any discussion or plans for adventures take a back seat automatically.

Tonight someone mentioned something about developing pocket dimensions for certain purposes related to the ongoing major IMM event. My character volunteered to do something towards developing it, and was immediately shot down because there are some other people already taking care of it.

I like to talk ICly about stuff going on in the game almost as much as I like going to different places in the game and doing things, but I like even less when my role in a given conversation is relegated to "person standing in the background who doesn't know what's going on but is just there to make the faction look like it has warm bodies sitting at keyboards." Especially when it means that that great big trip everyone's been planning is on hold for four hours while people talk about stuff that you weren't part of, and then when the trip commences everyone just jumps ship a half hour in and you're not going to make it to the end without them (no exaggerations here).

It's been a rough week in Amia for my character, who pretty much sits around waiting to be taken along on exciting trips. I suppose it can't be helped if I'm never around for the great big IMM event, though, but I confess that Amia is not all that much fun anymore.

I'd just like to say, that as a DM myself, I find these comments about DM conflict of interest and such to be rather unfounded and borderline offensive. I mean, just stop and think for a second. Obviously the entire DM team has eccess to all the secret facfional dealings going on anyways. At least, I would hope they are so they can secretly brainstorm with eachother on effective ways to engage those factional dealings. A DM doesn't win by having their chosen faction succeed, because they could do that at a press of a button if htey felt like it. A DM wins by telling a story, and having players actually care about that story they're telling. Sure DMs are ultimately human, but if we can't trust them to act with some level of integrity, who can we trust?

And so, I'd like to take this moment to say. I'm not mad at any of the staff per se about what's been going on with Bendir, Infact, since my return from my most recent leave of absence I've actually been incredibly impressed with the conduct of the current DM team. In the past, I found the DM team to be rather more heavy handed and less willing to communicate with the playerbase at large. Which was of course a product of how the server worked back then. The player base was just too large and too immature back then to have the sort of DM team we are now graced with. I'm really glad that the staff has recognised that the server has become a lot leaner and more mature now. Of course there's always room for improvement, but seriously you guys are pretty cool by me. When I bring up my concerns I only do so because I'm hoping to offer something from my own perspective that the staff may have overlooked, not because I want to rant and rave that they're being mean to my precious little sandbox as some here may have suggested.

There is a good reason why the vast majority of good directors dont act in their own movies.

None-the-less, we have listened to the feedback of the playerbase in the past. Several DMs, including myself, have gone to great lengths to intertwine and inter-link many smaller plotlines together to emphasise that they are not just stand-alone episodes but separate chains intertwining with one another to create a proper story arc.

Those familiar with mine and Manarethan's plotlines know that each has an effect in some manner upon the other (helped greatly by the fact that both of us are in the same time zone). The actions of players in Manarethan's plot and the actions of Manarethan's NPCs have benefits or consequences in my plot just as player decisions in my plot have benefits or consequences in Manarethan's plot. Both of our NPCs also make cameo appearances in the other's plotlines, playing either major or minor parts depending upon the circumstances. Its commonplace between the players involved to think that both are infact the same plotline, which I take as a huge compliment.

That's only one example of many. Nihilus, Kobra, Rigela and Glim have also pulled off some amazing feats in this regard with Amarice and Nivo contributing greatly to the cause. Even BoB has had NPCs of hers cameo in my plotlines.

It takes alot of planning and coordination to pull something this complex off and we are constantly re-writing our story arcs in reaction to the players and their decisions. Because of such, and the fact that we have a playerbase of different ages scattered around the world, the plotlines slow down significantly. As players, I can understand that this is a confusing and frustrating prospect because you only see the then and now compared to us who see the greater picture unfolding step by step.

My advice is to treat these plotlines like a television series: stay tuned week by week and don't expect to hold all of the answers by the end of the fourth episode, when there are still 18 episodes left in the season.

I'll take the criticism that there's not enough smaller events on board however. That's a fair point and one I'll look into contributing towards in the near future.

The feelings of futility in light of DM NPCs is also something I will take into consideration, as I am a culprit of this: my NPCs are predominantly Underdark NPCs who have been poorly represented over the years and I get a little overzealous in giving them the rightful justice they deserve. I will look into this and see what changes I can make, all the while trying to provide a challenge.

blaq valor wrote:

There is a good reason why the vast majority of good directors dont act in their own movies.

I'm curious then. How many of you can actually say that you've been negatively affected by the fact that DMs are also able to make and play PCs? What was the issue? Please elaborate.

I think people saying that DMs shouldn't play PCs are, at this point, simply nitpicking and making out that DMs are bad and completely flawed.

I know a DM who prefers to play their character than being in the DM console and I know DMs who prefer to be in the DM console than being a player, but neither is more wrong than the other.

Hell, most DMs I've met player-side have some amazing characters and have produced a lot of nice RP, not once have I personally seen or felt that them playing another character has caused ruptures in their RP, both player side and DM.

For me the answer leads to Yossarin's "Dissertation on Concentration" thread. Dm's having a player acct makes them largely unavailable...or at least 50% of the time. *I'm not doing the math....*. I was in a situation not long ago when a player was trying to cast a divination spell so my character could go gather some intel on a culprit that was causing trouble. No DM. We waited for X amount of time *I'm not doing the math...it was more than half hour*....no bones. We were standing beside one that was on a player account though :/ That's just one example. Said situation still hasn't been resolved to my knowledge.

Picking specific instances isn't fair I think. And I'm not ever going to say that a DM should /never/ be allowed to play the game player side. My point...admittedly so was an extreme example, which I know is largely unreasonable. I would never try to deny someone the opportunity to have fun. All I'm trying to get across is that DM's should focus on DMing. If their player toons are involved in their /own/ areas, then they're contributing to their DMing. If each DM is driving for their own area, then it's not favoritism, because they're all trying to make their area's better...which only makes the whole better. A team is the sum of its parts. Each doing their job in unison with the rest of the parts. I know and applaud the efforts of the staff in coordinating with each other, I've seen first hand how it goes down. Please PLEASE don't misunderstand me here people. Specifics and names are unfair. The point that I see trying to be made here is DM attention..and it seems this crops up a lot when these threads are made.

A simple matter of alt-itis is my only thought. Define it as you will, but please try to boil it down to the simplest essence. I just watched a plot line die in about 2 weeks because a few people got bored/fed up with their toons and made new ones. The players are still around, the plot line isn't because the players are on a different toon. The same might go with a DM that plays player side. Time zones, the various ability to invest time from our RL's, or desire to try on different characters....it all applies. the human element can /never/ be removed. Ever. But I maintain, that if we removed a few of the variables, I bet that the over all experience would be to the benefit of of the majority of the people here.

Focus: DM's and players alike simply need to focus on the things they want/need to do.
Team work: Dm's and players alike can and should work as a team to see big and small plot lines...be they large server wide story arcs, or just simple character development...come to fruition. To have a DM..or a player *and this happened very recently...thank you MoD!!!* ..step in and help with simple character development, that has /nothing/ to do with any other plot line left me with a feeling of gratitude that I will do my utmost to pay forward.

The theory is really very simple to me..I hope I can articulate it well enough

Ninja edit: I'll just point out here that I hope I covered my thought on DM's being player side......

I'd just like to concur with Yaster that in the majority of my encounters with DMs PC-side, they've generally been positive and inclusive towards me.

I understand your frustration at not getting plots finished, or even not having enough DM time. In the most extreme of examples, forcing a DM to play (Whether altitis, conflict of interest, etc) only on the client, is going to push away DM's and make matters worse.

Where do you realistically draw a line? Its fine to say, "Dm's, you need to focus more on DMing." Okay, but how do we implement this? Do we enforce a greater amount of DM time on the client? Do we limit DM player time?

My own work, for example, largely takes place off of the client-- dealing with players who are being troublesome. Last week, I spent upwards of twelve hours dealing with problems between players. So hopping onto my PC was a great way for me to relax and remember how great Amia is. And that my effort's worth it.

I think your examples of the math, Analog (And you recognize this as maybe being the case), are fairly over-exaggerated. In your example, that's just one DM-- on a staff where we have numerous. Where were the other DM's that weren't playing? What was stopping them being available, if it wasn't being playerside?

If a my PC were involved in my own areas, its counter-acting my DMing, because I become scrutinized for favoritism, bias, etc.

And think about it like this, Analog-- While we have that whole dissertation on alternate characters, we don't force players to stick to one character. We recognize it as something that might /help/ them, but decided not to enforce a limit, because we want to promote choice. Translate that to DM's as well-- as you're already doing. Yes, you're not going to achieve a perfect amount of DM time, but you're going to have a staff of DM's who are having fun, who are comfortable, and who are doing the best they can for something we're not getting paid for, and doing only because we want to help make the place better around us. That's our only obligation, and its an internal one-- not one that you guys can give.

There's no way to create a perfect amount of DM time, coupled with choice and comfort. In the extreme opposite, we could force DM's to stick to client, and that would push a lot of DM's away, thus reducing time even more. Or we could put more limits on DM's, and exhaust them slowly-- and see more of them drift away in time. Or we could do nothing to change their choice, and there will be times when DM's aren't available at a day or so-- or sometimes plots get mixed up, but we have a higher retention rate, and in my belief generally higher total DM client time.

DM's will be more and more busy on the client the more they are having fun there.

Excellent points. I'm glad you were able to make them after observing my own. That is what I was hoping for. Now that we've recognized both extremes, a suitable compromise can be thought out and perhaps implemented.

A good solution comes from both ends of a debate. This thread has seen many ends. Lets put it all together now.

I conceede here and now, that my points were /intended/ to be radical and 'unreasonable', and /intended/ to be taken that way. Thinking something, and seeing it or saying it out loud puts it in very different context in our minds.

I haven't read all of the posts here. I do understand some of the frustration of the earlier posters though. The giant groups, the lag. For about the past 8 months I haven't participated in many events myself (until recently) because if more than 7 or 8 PC/NPCs were in an area my computer would literally freeze.

But to answer the call for views. I personally think the DMs have taken the suggestions they have been given over the last year and /soared/ with them. Galenson's post sums up what I have seen pretty well. We asked for more coordination, and wide arcing plots, and we got that.

I also think that they have done a fabulous job of involving some of the lesser involved players. I myself have always felt "on the outside" in the larger stories of the server. I thought it was just my own personality, and the fact that I didn't feel like I had the lore knowledge or server knowledge to really solve the issues we faced. However, now I think it was just the character I was playing.

Now I'm mostly focused on a character that I made a year ago, but really only started playing about two months ago. I haven't had any problems working her into RP with other players (yes I mean players I didn't know OOCly or had not played with before), or the DM plots.

Mmm sooo it's late, I'm rambling. In short I believe the DMs have done what we asked, and are listening!

Manarethan wrote:

I'm curious then. How many of you can actually say that you've been negatively affected by the fact that DMs are also able to make and play PCs? What was the issue? Please elaborate.

Ummm I don't want to dissuade DMs from playing their own PCs!

However, over the last week I have had to make OOC adjustments to my character's RP because two of the people she would have logically asked for information or insight into the plots she is involved in were either an NPC of a DM, or a PC of the DM that is actually running the plot!

I don't feel like I can really be more specific without spoilers, but I will PM you if you want.

Yossarin wrote:

Funny thing about the Dale's problem and the need for a spellcaster: I conceived of a solution on my own that I wanted to present, but my hands got full. It didn't involve the need for a spellcaster at all. I made the assumption that possibly a toxin was in the soil, maybe magical in nature, but essentially physical. I was going to research and see if there was a kind of killer weed...like bloodvines!...that could be mass planted to suck up those killer anti-nutrients and maybe try to restore things in a more natural way. And thus present a neat complication of them maybe becoming gorged and oversized and dangerous and then you have a bunch of hin in an overgrown thatch of killer foliage trying to beat it back in an epic quest to save the spring preserves!

But you can't use this idea now, even if it would have been feasible.

Still counts as a quest for McGuffin!

When it comes to involvement, I don't see it as an issue to get involved with plots of it is sensible for your character to be a part of it. With the larger plots though I feel like while everyone gets to help few gets to know the details of what is actually going on. Though this is understandable, though coordinating and making the decisions don't want to be spied on so they won't leak more information than necessary. In other words it would be harsh to blame DM's for that.

And a lot of my frustration may come from being in the EU timezone, but that difference is hardly anyone's fault.

Yossarin wrote:

Funny thing about the Dale's problem and the need for a spellcaster: I conceived of a solution on my own that I wanted to present, but my hands got full. It didn't involve the need for a spellcaster at all. I made the assumption that possibly a toxin was in the soil, maybe magical in nature, but essentially physical. I was going to research and see if there was a kind of killer weed...like bloodvines!...that could be mass planted to suck up those killer anti-nutrients and maybe try to restore things in a more natural way. And thus present a neat complication of them maybe becoming gorged and oversized and dangerous and then you have a bunch of hin in an overgrown thatch of killer foliage trying to beat it back in an epic quest to save the spring preserves!

But you can't use this idea now, even if it would have been feasible.

Without revealing information about the plot, I know that it's not as simple as a toxin. No, it's hard to fix Bendir Dale's issue without magic.

Shadowfiend wrote:

And a lot of my frustration may come from being in the EU timezone, but that difference is hardly anyone's fault.

This I feel as well, including the no one's fault part. Most of the current events, especially in the big lovely Cordor plot, seem to take place after EU midnight which is a pity and makes trying to interact with NPC's very hard. Still, I consider it worthwhile to pursue in weekends.

I'll try and weigh in. If we're using the term all-star I definitely don't consider myself one though some of my characters do tend to mingle with a large swathe of characters that could be considered "all-stars", most of them take Iron's stance on matters - that Amia is a small island and if things were that bad the gods would sort it out. Which is one of the reasons my character never really dives in head first, or rarely, because he's not selfless and there are selfless people out there to do the job for him. I'm getting sidetracked. I became a DM before actually entering a DM plot and following a plot that kind of died out because of a DM stepping down a few years ago I never really bothered with them - I was happy to, like Iron, watch from the forums or IC (and topside) to see how they played out. That said, since I came back a few DMs have included me in their events and one even listened to one of my hair brained schemes and took me and a few others on an awesome adventure.

I think the main problem is putting yourself out there. If you want smaller plots my suggestion would be to request them, give the DMs the freedom to take your idea and do what they will with it. It also helps if you include other characters so the DMs can cover more players. Even when I was DMing and asking the player base for them to pitch their ideas I received three tops and conducted two of them, following a topic very similar to this one. The DMs are there to listen/help, so if your character wants to punch a seal in the face or infiltrate the Cart Rider Union throw them a request.

The drunken Brit wrote:

If you want smaller plots my suggestion would be to request them, give the DMs the freedom to take your idea and do what they will with it.

And when you ask for this and months pass with nothing but one lone "WHUP can't help ya"? Meanwhile the same people who are always in the limelight are time and again BACK in the limelight in that timeframe?

As someone who doesn't feel he's in the "All-Star" category, but is still pretty much running a lot of the Tarkuulian response to said plots (and believe me there is a LOT of us in here), I can say that I don't feel there's a whole lot of merit to the all star thing. However I do not play in the places marked as "offenders" and with the Reyes plot I involve literally everyone who will join me. It is literally the server plot, and the importance of it is treated as such that Gerald is sort of afraid of going to do the things that need doing without help.

Now there are other plots that require a little more secrecy in Tark, sure. However those plots are not closed off, the information just isn't public.

Great that the plots and DM's are working together, however, when you OOC:ly want to avoid a certain plot, it becomes impossible to do so. I personally don't have time to get into this massive plot with massive amounts of information and thus, would like to focus in smaller aspects. Just to find out that this smaller aspect had became part of the massive plot and there was not a thing my character could do to stop it or stop defiling the place she had great amount of interest in.

In essence now I am forced to deal with it, in order to protect what she holds dear. And usually that doesn't mean a thing as the enemies these days are immune to most spells, maybe a group of dev-critters are far more wiser choice. At least the dev-critters can go on and on, not running out of spells that don't even work in the first place.

Whereas I understand that a diviner in very essence is quite annoying for DM plot, but then again I feel that as a player I'm giving much of the PvP/PvM aspect in order to focus in gathering information, revealing secrets and whatnot. I aimed to find about elven culture and artifacts with the character development, but seems I am stuck in some kind of blood magic wherever I go and can't gather information via the means she knows best. Even Legend Lore is halted, which targets the caster itself and usually only very powerful beings can halt information of them or their interest being gathered via the spell. I don't want all the information, but maybe at least something that could potentially contribute.

Actually my greatest disappointment is the fact that there is almost nothing elven going on. Everywhere are Netheril mages and human, outsider, demons and devils, but when it comes to something that is elven, it is pretty much empty, or one way or another tied into freaking humans or other humanoid races.

I am elfaholic, and admit it. I love elven culture and everything elfs have, yet the lack of them in plots or in game, make me less interested. Or the lack of being able to be elf and notice "Hey, here is where my elf heritage is a benefit and having grown in their culture is a benefit". More often I find being human and able to speak dead languages a benefit.

I as well admit that I am very frustrated as a player having ran into plots where either of these two happen:
A) I get in, but get stuck in it with no signs of it ever being completed even though I am getting OOC:ly told all the time they are working on it. Forgive me, but I am done hearing it. The fact that I played an sick elf in one House for good 4 months, or more, without pretty much anyone visiting or the DM showing up, quite literally made me hate it. And I try to stay true to whatever consequences my char gets, all the time.

B) I get initially started, the DM disappears, coming back far later and then I notice the plot is going on and I am not included even though at the start of it I was.

If you make us players have consequences, but feel that you need to take a break, at least let us know. Give us a way to get our character a temporary conclusion that allows us to play them in your absence. I must say Ego did great in this, he allowed my character some boons before he had to take a break, in order to enable me to enjoy the roleplay instead of playing a character for months without being able to do anything.

And even now that I am voicing my quite negative thoughts, which has only few players heard, I feel that I am just shooting myself in the foot and more than likely going to pay a price for doing it. I don't want to shun the DM's away and for two years I've been very patient and understanding that real life happens and just been waiting and hoping sometimes we can pick up on what we stopped at.

Actually I will stop here, better not keep digging myself a deeper grave.

^ It's not digging a grave when you are just speaking your mind.

What seems to be the problem and What is This thread about? Summary please: So i don't need to read 4 pages and more

The last one to do something seriously elfcentric to my recollection, Magiros, was Peeves. It was big in scale, but I think that to be fair it might have been co-opted by a lot of non-elven elements. Which is understandable.

I can say that in my time as a DM I never delved much into either the elves or the drow a reason that applied to both of them: the players could often be unforgiving if you did not know every facet of the established lore regarding the races. I agree that a DM should familiarize him- or herself with the basics, but when you see players posting rants about the failure of a DM for their interpretation of a detail it has a chilling effect. It did for me, anyway.

I actually don't see this trend in the elven (or drow) players anymore, btw. I think as a playerbase of reduced numbers we've been forced to be a little more homogenous rather than separating ourselves and rarely crossing lines.

And also, agreed with Mosh. Don't be afraid to speak your mind. You did so there without coming across like a douche, so it is more like to be regarded seriously. And who knows, maybe favorably if any DM reads it and decides, yeah, the elves need a little tender love and care. Or not so tender love and care.

Just to toss in my $0.02 of agreement, I've also found the general lack of DM presence in Winya kind of frustrating. When DMs have been around, I've loved the stuff they've come up with (Peeves, Mahtan) but.. well, it's been a while now. Ego680 seems like he might be trying to start something, but it's also seemed like his attentions were mostly on his Ostland stuff.

Could the answer be something as simple as "hire more DMs"? I've noted the Dale players voicing the same thoughts.

I would agree with Liz. And I would know amazing player who would most likely make a great Elf DM. Not referring to myself!

PuresoulX2 wrote:

Shadowfiend wrote:

The way I feel, the thing is that you can involve factions as you like, but if you make them a victim at least don't leave them helpless. Maybe DM's are at full right to do so, but you may be ruining people's fun, and less fun means less players. It's frustrating to walk around with your character in her daily rp knowing there's nothing you can do to repair the damage done to your faction.

.. This.. This! The War Knights were just victims in the end and left overall powerless. I know also I cannot do a thing with my cleric of tempus to repair it for it won't ever happen through the hands of a DM.

The Drow.

Now. TO CONTRIBUTE!

World changing good, yes - but needs be accessible too - too much of RL is spent suffering from the effects of forces out of our control, no fun in a game too. This is the ultimate conundrum.
Also - 're win button' - ambush players. Do small, amusing yet world changing things. Possess goblins after a lowbie dies and have them nibble at their fingers. Surprise a bunch of midlevels when the latest Wharftown pirate leader turns out to want to talk it out with them and ascertain why he's having to fight the player groups, wouldn't they rather consider joining forces with him?

Do something with Uhm/Wharftown. That is small and world changing. Make the sleepy towns worth going to rather than passing through. Just small stuff. Not 'the shrine of Selune is under attack by werewolves (again!)' but 'that NPC just asked me to spy on his wife, he thinks she's having an affair' 'are you gonna?' 'yeah!'

Quote:

World changing good, yes - but needs be accessible too - too much of RL is spent suffering from the effects of forces out of our control, no fun in a game too. This is the ultimate conundrum.
Also - 're win button' - ambush players. Do small, amusing yet world changing things. Possess goblins after a lowbie dies and have them nibble at their fingers. Surprise a bunch of midlevels when the latest Wharftown pirate leader turns out to want to talk it out with them and ascertain why he's having to fight the player groups, wouldn't they rather consider joining forces with him?

Do something with Uhm/Wharftown. That is small and world changing. Make the sleepy towns worth going to rather than passing through. Just small stuff. Not 'the shrine of Selune is under attack by werewolves (again!)' but 'that NPC just asked me to spy on his wife, he thinks she's having an affair' 'are you gonna?' 'yeah!'

Awesome idea.

One thing I'd like to suggest about this plot myself is, and this is realy to the players.. don't rely on those "certain" characters if you don't have to. I am basically the current go-to for this stuff in tarkuul (somehow) and it's actually kind of overwhelming. It feels like a lot of people's RP is dependent upon me sometimes and I've been meeting everyone one on one lately. It's actually kind of exhausting. I'm going to be taking great pains in the next few days to make more public statements on Gerald and delegate stuff to other PCs so that
A) They're more involved
and
B) I can take a break when I log in

I love the plots. I just think I'm suffering from faction leader syndrome. Gonna do my best to mitigate the overflow I get on it, but I a lot of people in a near constant stream. It feels like I'm almost always in Gerald's office.

Quote:

I love the plots. I just think I'm suffering from faction leader syndrome. Gonna do my best to mitigate the overflow I get on it, but I a lot of people in a near constant stream. It feels like I'm almost always in Gerald's office.

I hear ya brudda, they get to be long days at the keyboard sometimes to make sure info gets spread to those you feel need it or that have the gumption to come get involved.

It's a great thing to have folks beside you as vested as you are in the well being of the faction/city/citadel/peoples. I gotta say it was hard to step away, but it was easier knowing the team will carry on while whoever needs to steps back and recharges. I can't say enough good things about my fellow dorfs.

I really have no complaints about the plots or the manner in which the team manages them. I happen to enjoy just about all events, big and small. I am about as happy silent in the background as support as I am in the front barking orders. If things get slow or players stuck, a little nudge or hint goes along way, not all of us are a keyboard Sherlock Holmes or lore encyclopedia but we love the roles in which we play. Roleplay.. see what I did there.

My only real problem is attracting another handful of active involved players like the handful we have. Clerics for Mordinsamman's sake! Alchemists, engineers, construction laborers, arcane focused, you know.. the usual, and some off the beaten paths would be welcomed too. Not all dwarves are miners and smiths. Then it would be like a baseball diamond in the middle of an Iowa cornfield.

I would like to add 2 points to this thread.

1_) I feel DC could be given a bit more often from time to time when good RP occurs (not just for events). I might be unlucky, but there was a time when this happened more often than it does now.. and I am online quite a bit

2_) I remember the first event I was in when I joined the mod was in the troll caves. It was a fun little random event the way it was suggested in this thread. But I also remember that at the end of that event we all got a DC ---AND--- some bonus exp. That exp was very welcome, especially at low level (I think it was 500 or 1000 exp, as if it was a quest)

So yeah, 2 things I have been missing lately ^^ Thanks for the staff to take the suggestions though, I read gorgometh was re-hired to do smaller random events.. and that's very nice.

Mushidoz wrote:

1_) I feel DC could be given a bit more often from time to time when good RP occurs (not just for events). I might be unlucky, but there was a time when this happened more often than it does now.. and I am online quite a bit

Most DCs I have gotten are from just randomly chatting with people, not so much events I think

And yes Saya is on but I usually see her and some chars on Bossmia and then the occasional port back to A for a moment

Fun fact: If there's a DM or two on and you wave that magical DC wand mid-RP with someone, you'll more than likely grab a DM's attention and award people with DCs for good RP.

Can't expect DMs to be omnipresent.

Use the green stick.

The point DMs have yet to pick up on, in my experience, is the use of XP as a reward. That's how D&D operates. Characters get XP for achieving objectives or succeeding at something relevant to their class. I know DCs can be cashed in for XP, but that's a secondary use. There's really no reason not give XP to a bard managing to sing his way out of a sticky situation, to a priest impressing listeners with a sermon or a theological argument, to a wizard coming up with a creative solution to a magical problem, or to a rogue sneaking past enemies undetected.

You do have a tool to give an XP reward that scales by level, don't you? I know I didn't always remember to use it myself, but when I did I would reward either a flat amount or a certain percentage (say, 20%) needed for a level. If somebody participates in an hour-long quest and actively contributes to the solution, surely they've earned the XP as much as if they were grinding?

When you give XP rewards, you remove some of the pressure of grinding and free player energy for further RP. That's not really related to the topic at hand, but it's something to think about nonetheless.

Quite. It is easy to forget about the XP wand, but I used it where I could.

I've tried to use it when I remember, or if the people aren't maxed out - but it is very easy to forget and just go the traditional route of basking them in a green glow I do admit.

That said, I do prefer the smaller kind of events myself (running them, at least) or ones that aren't so global (so like stuff for people in Kohlingen) or other one time (or small succession of) events for people. To me, at least, it gives a chance for something more personal and meaningful to whomever is involved.
That is not to say the larger stuff is bad, however. They can just have a big impact, or more, depending on what occurs.

Sometimes just spicing up a hunting party that is role playing is good too, throwing them some challenges or having stuff react out to em (be careful what you say, lest you tempt the fates that be, etc.!)

But yes, as said, don't be afraid to speak your opinion! It all helps us understand how you feel better, as while we can guess, actually knowing allows us to adapt and assist to make it more fun for all.

Edit: On the note of PCing where you DM, or at least my view on it. The reason I don't have my PC's really interact actually in Kohlingen or try to do too much DM interaction in Winya is that it simply unease's me slightly. Cries of favouritism, stifling etc would increase I feel and I can do whatever I need to with a PC, with a NPC better anyway in that regard. I've tried to, anyway, put out lots of opportunities for people to do things within Winya as Shyllia though (or at least for the mages!) and have simply left them there for people, so for those that want too, they can try to do a number of things and achieve success. And perhaps while I could just focus on DMing entirely, there are some things I can't do as one without appearing that I may just be entirely self indulging. I can understand the thought process of it though, however and it's a fair enough one to hold!

I know I've brought a few PCs that weren't max level to some major time events that would have probably loved to get the xp wand smack.

Shadowfiend wrote:

Another thing is the proportion of the events, as in magical wise. There is powerful foes, and not defeating them may have dreading consequences. The powerful magic makes the heroes reliant of mages and priests and other casters, making it harder for fighter and rogue sort of characters to step into the light as heroes, or villains. In achieving goals, revealing secrets and such a "mundane" character is helpless compared to a mage and with few exceptions ends up as nothing more than PvE things.

This. Lately the impression I'm getting from events is: play a wizard or be a nobody. Imo in terms of RP balance( a term I made up ) wizards are hilariously overpowered, always saving the day and whatnot with some PNP spell that they pull out of thin air.
Despite being quite heavily involved in that plotline myself at one point, my character's abilities as a shifter have not once been able to save the day, or even be of use outside of PVE, which is/was extremely demotivating to me and many others. I mean, when the class that is supposedly renowned for it's versatility (shifters) can't even hold a candle to wizards, it sorta bothers me z_z.

As much as I love the wizard players out there, imo you should not have access to PNP spells not already in NWN/amia without requesting it first, just as I have to request any additional shapes that I want.

Lethaux wrote:

Shadowfiend wrote:

Another thing is the proportion of the events, as in magical wise. There is powerful foes, and not defeating them may have dreading consequences. The powerful magic makes the heroes reliant of mages and priests and other casters, making it harder for fighter and rogue sort of characters to step into the light as heroes, or villains. In achieving goals, revealing secrets and such a "mundane" character is helpless compared to a mage and with few exceptions ends up as nothing more than PvE things.

This. Lately the impression I'm getting from events is: play a wizard or be a nobody. Imo in terms of RP balance( a term I made up ) wizards are hilariously overpowered, always saving the day and whatnot with some PNP spell that they pull out of thin air.
Despite being quite heavily involved in that plotline myself at one point, my character's abilities as a shifter have not once been able to save the day, or even be of use outside of PVE, which is/was extremely demotivating to me and many others. I mean, when the class that is supposedly renowned for it's versatility (shifters) can't even hold a candle to wizards, it sorta bothers me z_z.

As much as I love the wizard players out there, imo you should not have access to PNP spells not already in NWN/amia without requesting it first, just as I have to request any additional shapes that I want.

No, Wizards are not hilariously overpowered unless they are let to be. There are limitations that they have. Beyond spells that made some sense given Tuomas' vocation or his focus in the Art, any PnP spells he has gained access to were taught to him. I keep a record of what PnP spells Tuomas has ins his book and when he would have one memorized , I use one of the *Unique Spell* slots for it, or I have a special track I try to notify DMs of when it's relevant.

As long as the knowledge of the specific spell and the proper slot representation are done right, Wizards are not more overpowered , in point of fact they lose versatility by having to prepare in advance.

As is, one of the projects Tuomas Icly committed to he's going to need to find a somewhat esoteric PnP spell I know that is going to have very limited usage at best outside of PnP stuff.

Also, In plots at times I've had to bang my head against spells being rendered utterly useless in spite that it seemed like they should work fine. (Some times that's the result of misunderstanding the effect or not recognizing something correctly until after the fact).

Lastly, outside of DM plots, PnP needs consent from all parties involved.

As for your arguement of shapes: The Shifter class gets some grace in shapes that are uncommon, as I'm to recall but I could be wrong you need to have some knowledge of the form before you try to adopt it yourself in the PnP version (again, this is something I could be wrong on).

My view on DM plots, and how I suggest to improve them

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