... Has anyone ever complained about that? There's jack all to buy in Forstakkr anyway, unless my memory deceives me.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

... people whine about that? I think that's the best thing about Forstakkr, personally. If more settlements worked like that, it would be awesome.

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

Character Portraits!

It might not be a thing now but I certainly remember a few party chats when it came in along the lines of 'god this place is a grind, I have to kill 10 rats to get anyone to trust me here...'

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Jys'zyne Do'larn

Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?

Nope. Quests are more like fetching and delivering, which involve some fighting. Plus, they are rather quick aslong as you follow the instructions provided by the questgiver.

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Characters:
Elder Torsten Eadgarsson
"He’d only shown the best of intentions. Firm but not unreasonable. Eager to protect what was his but not eager to overextend his reach, to push himself on to others."

WARNING: Wall of text. I did my best to make it easy to read.

I think my main problem with DM plots, certain plots in particular, is that they can sometimes step in the wrong place(such as a faction's agenda) or push too hard for a particular direction or outcome rather than leaving it more in the hands of the players. No offense to the team, but having an entire faction and its year(s) of work get killed off or drastically weakened just by DM intervention alone and with no closure from the DM team, no way to soften the fall or no alternative to replace what was lost is just not good. Allow me to give you an example of this. Know I do not speak for the War Knights as a whole, but as an individual who has many reasons to express discontent toward certain decisions. If it sounds hostile, I assure you it is not.

I understand IC actions have IC consequences, and no, this isn't 'dirty laundry being aired on the forums', as has been said before toward similar posts. But the War Knights? They had lived in Ostland for years, awaiting a DM for Ostland, but ICly showing respect for the people. However, after all the waiting, Ostland got a DM.. only for the War Knights to be told they need to pay a ridiculously high tax and fight for the Jarl, then later on get killed by ballistae, of which was manned by men on the other side of a woodland area with no real save given, then their warlord gets infected by some sort of blood magic(And is later killed, causing unrest of which was only the fault of the faction in this case), then removed from their keep so another faction can be put there instead(even if it's NPC manned). That's kind of wrong, don't you think? They did not do anything in particular to initially warrant any of this, yet it happened. I understand the initial idea was to perhaps give the Order of the Flaming Blade some measure of turbulence as to liven things up, but it became unfair as time went on. As for the keep, the odds slowly became stacked against them, the ways to deal with the odds were narrow, and eventually became nonexistent, and then finally when they try to deal with the problem in the only way they know how, a massive army turns up and the faction leader is forced to give the keep away for free with nothing in return. Letus not forget the very strange, very targeted and very odd deal to have the boats(which only numbered about two if I remember right) exchanged for the homeguard. Though this deal never had anything come of it, it was just yet another good example of this issue.

This is not an expression of ill will toward Amia, slander toward any DM and again in no way is it the collective voice of the War Knights, but mine, calling out a very severe issue as I see it. The ultimate point I'm trying to make is why railroad a plot in a certain direction, especially when it is at the expense of good players who worked hard IC to see something flourish? At some point you have to recognize the difference between letting someone roleplay toward a particular goal and just wasting the time of both the DM and the other party in question. Also, yes, I know not all success is guaranteed, but neither should failure be forced or otherwise imposed in the same light.

So how can one fix this issue? Do not force losses or outcomes. Have the potential for problems to arise, make it a challenge to meet a goal or to deal with something, but never destroy the very fiber that sets a DM plot apart from a predetermined, pre-made quest made in the toolset. It's the organic nature of a human run questline that makes them interesting, not a forced outcome or predetermined end result. As for factions taking losses, there are several reasons for that, and while definitely most issues caused in a faction are not DM driven, the War Knights were a specific example of how forced paths, results and outcomes can harm a faction more than aid it.

Sources: Veteran War Knight, own experience as a DM on other servers.

I was the one killed by the ballistae with no save.

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Devlin Faramond - Warrior Priest of Tempus
Aithne Ryrathrak - Red Dragon Disciple, Bronze Dragon Slayer
May'rinna D'vilrath - Underdarker and Noble House Sorceress

Don't forget with the similarity of what's happening in the Dale morale-wise, any enthusiasm the War Knights had was lost with the continuation of the storyline and the increasing amount of hopelessness that was growing in our ranks, which in turn made us just give up on trying anything else OOCly.

Aside from that, i've avoided DM plots and events for a long while now because they're just so damn depressing. If it isn't blood magic, it's a famine. If it's not a famine, it's murders and whatever else. I miss the days when I first started playing Amia, my party wiped out in the Electric Castle and the boss of that area resurrected us whilst giggling like a little girl, but that's just me.

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I don't debate your message, but I have to deny your premise.

As an observer of that debacle, I'll say simply that your interpretation of the events as being forced upon you is simply mistaken. This is my own opinion after having watched it DM-side, witnessing both the DM conversations on the plotline and player discussions (IC and OOC).

I've said it before, and I'll say it again-- There were literally tons of options and routes you could have taken as the War Knight faction to avoid doom, and plenty more that the DM's hadn't even thought of. Your character didn't choose an option that would have saved themselves from this tyrannical enemy. It was never that the options weren't there, or that they were forced on players, its that your character didn't choose them.

The responses I received from this were things like, "The War Knights would never have chosen these routes," "These things lie outside the dogma," or "My character is a warrior, not a politician." Firstly, there are a ton of options one could have taken that could have fallen within the dogma-- and secondly, the fact that the character chose not to take these paths can't possibly reflect on the DM negatively saying that he didn't allow or create alternative routes.

The insta-death thing is another matter, but I don't know the full circumstances on that.

So yes, I agree that DM's shouldn't force outcomes, but I wholeheartedly disagree that the War Knights story event is an example of a DM forcing one on a player faction. I know that you guys feel adamantly that it was. You felt hurt, slighted, and not given a chance-- and there's no way for me, or any of the DM's, to persuade you that it wasn't the case. We've given examples of alternative routes, demonstrated that other player factions were involved, and tried to explain NPC reactions based on previous War Knight actions. In a way, just as you're frustrated that you felt forced, I feel frustrated that the message isn't getting across that you weren't!

Please don't interpret the above as being negative, snide, or upset. I feel that you at least politely brought up this example to help your point, and I tried to agree while also disagreeing on the premise. In the end, this is a forum strictly about people's opinions-- whether or not they are objectively right or wrong.

However!! Even if we disagree, myself (And I imagine the DM staff as well) is more than willing to take these complaints into consideration. For example, even if I disagree that routes weren't available, maybe the staff should strive to make them more obvious? Maybe a DM managing a plot should work hard to reward the characters in some way for suffering losses in other areas? Even though we disagree on the example given, we can make progress to see that you guys don't feel slighted again.



When I was first being considered for DMing, I was consulting a friend of mine who had DMed on another NWN server. She told me a few tips for DMing-- one of which is relevant in the examples above. Firstly, she told me to run small plots, instead of big ones. One time, she took about 3-4 days making this incredible mystery plot involving the murder of a merchant in his home. She had everything ready, and when the adventurers arrived at the man's house-- they all thought it was a trap, and quickly fled the scene. They didn't come back, and the mystery fell to nothing! So as far as work and reward goes-- not only are the smaller plots often more rewarding, but they are easier to come up with and manage.

The second thing she told me, was to always reward players who lost. Even if it wasn't equal in quantity, reward them with something. The example she gave me, was that if a man was sentenced to prison-- have there be a fellow inmate he can meet to learn valuable information about an underground crime ring in the city. A DM shouldn't necessarily reward a character with the key to get out of the prison he arrived in, but the DM needs to find a way to reward that character with further Rp. So the story doesn't end with simple defeat. In a way, more attention should be given to the people that have suffered defeat, than the ones who have won. Victory creates its own RP-- but the players that lost, especially if they lost something important, often have a very strong feeling of defeat.

I'm positive that there's more to be learned from the War Knight event, even if we disagree on the degree of forced outcomes.
~~~

As for the depressing nature of events... well, I suppose maybe I just like a darker theme. I get my happy feelings from player-on-player interactions, rather than DM ones. I've always enjoyed the young couple that finds love in a dark and bitter world, and struggles to make it work (like a candle in a dark room)-- rather than a whimsical or lighter setting.

Still, though, if players are concerned that the setting has become too dark, I believe we'll simply have to take note of those players and reward them with perhaps a smaller, less-globally influential plot that might be a little more happy. A whimsical bard traveling to the Moonshae's and gathering followers. A famed swordsman passing through, earning his stay at an inn by teaching the guardsmen his superior techniques.

I think there's a way to create a dark, dangerous setting that helps create a sense of fear (Of death, loss, etc)-- while also supplying occasional, smaller plots that can be those candles in the darkness.

I suppose, I'm not dismissing any of the players who have mentioned that plots are becoming too depressing or dark. I'm trying to reword these concerns and approach a solution that is both agreeable to the staff and players. I don't think that people truly want to play in a happy land of horses (Shutup Robert) and flowers-- but I think the staff could do well to start creating shimmers of hope.


Perhaps its a process, no? We can't very well make you guys appreciate these smaller groups of good unless we make the setting dark first, right? I love it when the good guys are the minority. A tyrannical empire, and a small group of rebellious adventurers meeting in the basement of a barn, planning the salvation of the people. So perhaps, let's keep the setting dark, but as it gets really dark, we (The staff) should begin arranging and assisting small groups of goodly PC's and NPC's.

Hackums as a DM what is your view the current way difficulty scales and balancing of DM events/NPCs against say players?

I know that's a large and open question so talk about anything in that effect, such as if you were doing or maybe a past event and how it played out and what went though your head as you were doing it.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

It was an overview of what went wrong, why it was wrong and what someone could do to avoid future issues. There was blood magic cast upon a faction with no active wizard or any alternative way to help us and a half inactive playerbase that was either dealing with real life issues or other things unknown. I can name the options I saw and most of them involved weakening the faction more. In hindsight you could say anything, such as there were many options, or you could have communicated with the DM. Anything. But at the time, as for many other reasons, no one thought of the options because all we could think about was how to avoid our year or so of work being voided over a lot of issues coming at us at once. How do you work against that? It's not really me complaining that there was turbulence and that we had to work for it, but the faction was never given any clear path out of the problem created by the plots, or closure when we were left to our own devices due to not being tied to Ostland anymore.

Thanks for the reply and clarification, Caldera. I only wanted to demonstrate my stance to those who haven't been in on our conversations, rather than act aggressively toward you or any of the War Knights. Instead of 'sticking to my guns', I'm more interested in figuring out why there's a disconnect in our opinions on the matter, and how we as DM's can help mitigate future concerns.
~~~

Whew, Balance. Cory, to be honest, its a subject I'm not that great at. I can generally understand player on player balance, but being perfectly honest, I'm bad at fashioning NPC's (Mechanically). Most people involved in plots I run (When I run them-- I know I'm inconsistent!) find that I enjoy non-fighting plots. Balancing NPC's, especially on the fly, is one of the larger reasons for this.

Instead, I usually stick to mysteries, puzzles, tomb-raiding, and the like. If I have to have fighting in a plot, I'll usually dress-up epic monsters, or add a few hordes of creatures that you'd find in PvE dungeons. If I wanted to be really thorough, and balance NPC's in my plots to the best of my own knowledge-- I'd probably make NPC's epic leveled characters with builds similar to most players, and give them modest to high gear, depending on the amount of players I'm expecting. Then I'll likely control one of the more powerful NPC's myself.

Balancing monsters against 'The Horde' is really tough. That's why as a DM, I like running smaller plots. Puzzles and mysteries being my favorite.

Balancing was always the hardest thing for me as a DM. I don't know if I ever actually got it right. I always felt like I made things too easy, but whatevs.

I either feel like its too easy, or too hard. Its such a tough thing to manage. I remember seeing Gunz once make a handful of NPC's that were very, very tough. And they butchered just about everyone. But as two reinforcements arrived (Myself and Robert!), he quickly limbo'd all of them but one or two, which turned out to be a really cinematic challenge.

Much easier to make them tougher and remove some than to make them too simple and watch them get slaughtered. If its only one epic boss NPC, I'll make it pretty tough, but then control it so I can pull back if it slaughters too many too fast.

There was a group of forest folk this happened to just recently, I remember. They came across some enemies, and got beat. Bad! So I tried to make their falling really cinematic and detailed, and helped them investigate the area once they were brought back (See my above post, about rewarding those who have lost!)

Tis always fun to watch the "balance" when noobie-kins are side by side with the so called veteran uberamia PCs in plots

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The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

I ask about the balancing because I was unsure how a DMs attempt to deal with it in events, one would think the spawns would more or less be pre-set before anyone shows up and the number of people and how strong they are would not matter.


With the case of War knights and Ostland and your statement of it kind of being a matter of perspective I will use a example on Caraigh, Darby and I were by Blackmoor keep and 10 skeletal knights were there (they are basically epic boss monsters) She died before getting off a attack, I took them on, and over the span of 10mins more and more were spawned, and I ended up having kill around 50, and 5 or so witches (also kind of epic boss with spells like G-ruin) by myself

I felt at blackmoor keep that it was intended for me to lose given the pure number and power of spawns thrown at me alone as I don't think anyone could really be expected to survive that alone, I will state I did survive but I felt for some reason that I cant explain....that the end plan was that I should have died. But that could have been the DM saying "Its Cory he can handle it lets make it a real challenge for him" and it was my hands were shaking by the end of it all.

So I can fully understand both sides where the DMs feel like many options were open and nothing was scripted so to speak, but being a player I can fully understand the feelings of PCs who feel like something was scripted, much like how I felt I was planed to have lost, even if it was not the case both with IC outcome of the events or the DMs intentions.



That brings into question, why does the threat have to be stronger then the PCs?

Your event in Amia forest where I got my wolf leg If I recall correctly you RPed him as viewing me has his only real threat to him, why is it DM NPCs can be uber god like things far past the power of anything PCs can be or have +8 items and stuff we can never have, but not the other way around?

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

In my experiences from my DM plots, the reason why things seem so hopeless and bleak is because people always go for the hard option first. I'll use my own plot for example:

During my She'kat plot, it was a commonplace thing for people to run head first into a spider's den waving their swords over their heads. When you look at things from a logical, even a tactical perspective, there was a reason that this tactic never worked: the spiders had the home ground which meant they had the high ground, the flanks, the ceilings AND the low ground. They outnumbered the PCs atleast 15 to 1. They had meticulously set up traps and even had brains big enough to adapt to the tactics used by adventurers. I'll name a few examples:

* After watching the mages buff people before entering and realising they're far more dangerous buffed, the spiders started targeting the mages first.

* After continuously getting beaten senseless in hand to hand combat by adventurers, the spiders chose to hide in the trees and shoot at them instead.

* Realising that adventurers were stronger in groups, the spiders came up with cunning ways to separate them: Dragging them down holes into tunnels, lassoing them with ropes and pulling them away screaming, forcing them to water pools by coating them in corrosive venom then dragging them underneath, taking prisoners and forcing the groups to split up and rescue them etc.


There were times when I would sit there and laugh because it was all I could do. Despite all the subtle hints I made that charging head first into the situation was a bad, bad idea... people still did it. Not only once during a single event, but several times.

People got frustrated that they could never beat the spiders head on conventionally, because they insistently kept trying to beat them head on when the spiders held all of the cards. However, when they started thinking outside of the box and said to themselves "this isn't working so lets try this," they started to win. Had they tried a different tactic then going "up the guts" earlier, the entire experience would have probably been far less stressful.


It doesn't apply to every plot, nor am I having a go at anyone, but I go via the approach of work smart, not hard. Use that common sense your characters all possess. If there's a big, dark, spider cave don't go rushing into it head first waving your sword above your head: set it on fire instead. Cob webs are highly flammable.

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Plays:

"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."

This one is not so much about the contents of DM events but about the timing. It's quite often I read the forum in the morning and see another big event happened in the DM praise thread which happened while I slept. Its not a good feeling when you play about daily for several hours and don't see any of that.

The problem is (in my perception which may be warped) that big serverwide DM events are not remotely evenly scheduled around the clock which makes participating for a non US time player with a normal schedule extremely hard especially as most big events happen without advance forum warning.

I feel there is a lack of active DM's that run (parts of) big plots in european times. While there are european DM's some of them work in US time mostly (The mask) and some aren't active plotwise as far as I know. The only exception I know of is Rigela but she is busy with Kohlingen and while a US DM has run something occasionally with advance warning or in euro times in the weekend (both are much apprechiated!) it's not often.

To be honest, its frusterating me as the big DM plots are a way to shape a character and make it evolve and grow. It also makes arranging something for a character regarding to the plot much harder as things keep happening outside your hours so you can't do anything about it when things are really happening. There is only so much you can (and want to) do through the forum.

As for solutions, I'll not suggest getting more DM's onboard but I would be gratefull if some part of the events were shifted to euro hours or an advance warning topic was created so people know atleast partially when what is happening when (Though the latter may backfire as it becomes a where to get my dc's and when topic but I can't think of anything better.)

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Characters played:

Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar
Elloanore (Travelling bard)

I dunno, I have to disagree. Most plots seem to happen ridiculously late even for West Coast USA. 1-2AM.

In Nihi's troll and cultist swarm, one of the PCs was a not long fresh off the boat Hin. It was fun seeing them die from a neutral mage's Ice Storm when fleeing the battle.

That's the issue with long term events with big NPC battles, by the time the penultimate battle is here, you have half the island there from ECL 2 to 30.

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A few times now I've seen DMs say the War Knights had alternate choices in the Ostland still on-going plot. I've yet to see examples, if you need time to think them up I am patient. Another point that hit me is since the War Knights as a faction got plot stomped we have had no help from the DM side. You turned us from a group of 12+ to a meagre 3. Is this how amian DMs roll? As damage dealers who view their roll as DM V Players? If just one DM had sent me a tell in game asking what they can do to help rebuild a DM caused destroyed faction I'd of been happy. I'm sure people will say IC is IC deal with it bro (along those words any way). A DMs roll is to enhance the world in more then just dooms day plots, ultimately world enhancement can be achieved by working with players not against.

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=55392&start=200

War-Knight discussion can go there, general DM-run plots involving all of Amia stay here, hm?

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Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.

I can't say I had the full knowledge of the War Knight plots but, while it doesn't seem like it there is always alternatives. Sometimes they aren't alternatives which are APPEALING but.. there they are.

And I say this as someone who although has had his own personal grievance with the Ostland plot in part has moved on from it.

That being said:

There is a larger presence of "Region threatening" plots that are running concurrently of late. A consequence of how events have happened in one of them? Possible, but it's also quite draining on folks and I am pretty sure I am not alone in saying that.

I could go into a greater spiel on my feelings but I know i have discussed this with a couple of others in the past so I won't continue here (though if any DM wants me to put another summary of my thoughts and feelings again I'll gladly do so)

Just a thought from reading through this fresh - regards the only available options 'weakening the faction' - sometimes you have to compromise to survive and then come back stronger than ever. You can't always have your cake, sometimes you have to earn it, and sometimes you have to give someone ELSE a bit of your slice in order to get more down the road.

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Jys'zyne Do'larn

Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?

I said I understood that things can't always be perfect and in fact suggested they shouldn't be, but demolishing a faction as far as things go is a different story.

You said you understood - agree with that much, but almost immediately after you complained that your only options were to weaken yourself. I don't know the ins and outs, but just going off the reading I got from your post, you pay lip-service only to the concept of consequence!

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Jys'zyne Do'larn

Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?

If the War Knights want me to continue this discussion on their forums, I'll be happy to. I actually tried to find the older post where the DM team explained the event, but after a brief search, I couldn't find it! Its there somewhere.... somewhere. But I'm continuing to use this event to showcase a few important things about DM events, for players in general. If you prefer that I don't, please speak up-- and I will happily take these details to a more private setting, and use broader and more vague examples to demonstrate my point.

I hesitate greatly to use the words 'Right' and 'Wrong' when it comes to character decisions, because there are tons of perceptions, goals, ambitions-- and in the end, it all is about the story.

I was watching the War Knight plot as excitedly as I was, because it turned into a plot of great consequences. At the far end of the spectrums, the War Knights could have been exiled with their keep lost, or they could have become rulers of Ostland. I was half expecting Malatril to become Jarl, or champion to the new Jarl. As it went, however, it ended up on the wrong (See: Loss) side of the spectrum.

One thing I want to say, is that there's always a choice. Always an alternative. Just as there are always alternatives in life, so too are there on Amia. In almost all of my plots, I do have an idea of how they will end. This sort of "End scene" that, in my mind, is some super-cool, cinematic ending. Only one of my events has ever ended in this fashion. The time it did, was because the players picked up on every hint and cue I had left in that direction, so by the end event, they had come to the same conclusion I had hoped for them to find. But in most every case, especially the larger the plots are, this doesn't happen. I've been in chat with DM's before during a plot, and there are times a character makes a choice or takes a certain course of action-- and the DM's all go, "...Well shit." "Really?" and we laugh, and we end up altering the course of the event in accordance to these decisions.

This happened in the War Knight plot as well. To be perfectly frank, I think a lot of DM's had really high hopes for the faction in that plot. We were really excited to see Ostland active again, and even more excited to see what the War Knights would do given the circumstances. We had the entire direction of the plotline at our fingertips, and I know I was certainly visualizing all these really neat paths for the War Knights. Then, what happened, was that as events unfolded, summaries of the day came to us, and the DM's each made comments like, "Well.. I guess if this is what they chose to do, then the NPC's will do [insert consequence]." At the time, it was one of Ego's first major plots, so he went hand-in-hand with basically the entire DM staff. He worked the day's events, and the DM team as a whole helped him come up with next steps, NPC reactions, and 'global' intertwining.

There was something that caught my attention in your last post, Caldera. You mentioned the work you'd put in for many years being lost, and the DM destroying a faction. My understanding of the situation currently, is that the keep still stands, no? Its simply being occupied by another. What if this isn't the end of all the work, but simply a stage? This goes for any DM events-- evaluate your pieces, and take a step back to look at all the options. I think, and this is going to be a bit of constructive criticism-- so please don't take this as me calling you out-- that this was one of the mistakes the War Knights did by omission, both ICly and OOCly.

In-game, I feel as if the War Knights didn't understand the power balance between Ostland and their Keep-- one being much larger than the other! The evaluation stage of the event was, in my own opinion, misunderstood. And importantly, after the first climax of the story-- the losing of the keep, I feel was also not properly evaluated. Yes, you've been sent away and 'lost' the keep. But it still stands-- all it requires is liberation. A fight! But you won't be able to do it alone (Well, maybe you could. But holding it with only a handful of War Knights would be very difficult!) You'll need allies. But your work is hardly destroyed or ruined. Its just out of your hands for the moment-- but isn't Ostland in open war? Aren't there numerous parties interested in Ostland? Folks that could potentially help you get your castle back? Maybe there's even people on Ostland who remember the War Knights favorably.

I'm jealous of the War Knights, I really am. Gods, how I've always wanted the opportunity to fight against an overbearing tyranny as the underdog. I still picture the War Knights secretly returning to Ostland, knocking on the door of one of their local allies, and hiding in his basement while they assist the rebellion in planning, equipment, etc. They have to hide-- and oh, how it hurts to hide, but oh, how their hearts are set toward vengeance! They evade the Knights and the Banites, running in the streets, doing small acts of good in training the locals. A few might get captured, and rescue attempts or emotional tragedy might follow! Or perhaps they align themselves first with a major power in the region. And among the armada of ships sailing toward the coast of Ostland to the beating of drums, one vessel dons the colors of Tempus-- each of its occupants staring with bloodthirsty anticipation toward the unkempt walls of their once-proud castle.

I know we can debate over and over again whether or not options were available-- but I can firmly stress that options never cease to be available. Find friends, recruit more to the faction in preparation for your return to Ostland. Solidify yourselves politically with major powers, and go-fight-win, yeah?

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=65017

There's the thread. It was locked because it degraded into back-and-forward arguing.

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Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.

Ahh, yes. Well, I'm all for seeing folks pick up and carry on to great things!

If the discussion seems destined to be resolved (on that specific matter) behind closed doors, perhaps it is worth that I add a post here in order to keep the ball rolling.

Those tips that you gave, Hackums, about the whole DM's not running big plots can be both a blessing and a curse.

A lot of people don't want to live in a static world, yet simultaneously it has to be remembered that ultimately NWN is a form of escapism for people - large grinding forces that are seemingly out of people's control to affect (or seem that way) are something we have to deal with enough IRL, I can understand the visceral dislike of them intruding on the game as well. It's the Matrix Paradox though. If we give everyone everything on a plate, they don't enjoy it either! There has to be struggle to make our character's lives meaningful. There has to be consequence to make their actions worth retelling. Yet in the same breath it has to be fun, and exciting for us.

A fine balancing act indeed.

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Jys'zyne Do'larn

Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?

Truth is, we figured that out a long time ago.

Usually doesn't help matters much to point it out in a conversation where the player side is upset with something. Better to find tangible solutions if they exist.

I'm not saying you don't know it, but sometimes repeating it aloud is a worthwhile exercise Yoss.

I always thoughts people needed to be more nosy when they play this game, as you found out once upon a time when I decided to go through Yossarin's office! As to Tangible solutions, I think Hackums has dropped some lovely hints and tips, but simultaneously that discussion is going to go on out of the eyes of the masses. Since the War Knights are not the only ones with complaints (viz earlier this thread, & the one in Bendir Dale forums), I think it would be productive, if not tangible, to continue the dialogue in an open arena.

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Jys'zyne Do'larn

Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?

If you're jealous of the plot line, have it. We don't and never wanted it. I'm not being rude Hackums, but that just sounds completely uncharacteristic for the War Knights, not to mention the morale was completely gone after the Warlord died and the keep lost. You can use "what if" scenarios all you want, it doesn't change the fact that the War Knights lost a lot of players who either retired their characters because of Ostland or just gave up completely on Amia, not to mention that plot line seems dead in the water for now.

Apologies if this came off a bit of a rant, just the whole subject of that plot line annoys me to no extent.

Note: I don't speak for the War Knights as a whole, it's mostly my opinion and the mood i've judged from the rest of us.

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It's a poor thing to make bold assumptions like that. I understand it wasn't the most clear or concise message but the problem was that there were consequences for things the War Knights never even wrought in the first place. If you have to argue something you pulled out of context then perhaps it's better you re-assess the scenario here before you go making claims like that. Sorry, I don't mean to sound hostile, but I don't really appreciate someone making accusations without first backing them up. You can pick apart the posts if you like but that would not solve anything.

Either way, I'll gladly take this behind closed doors with a DM, concerning the WKs, but what I won't accept is this hindsight logic. The issue is in reality, you can say anything about something that happened before and how you could have done X to prevent Y or A to avoid B, when really that neither solves anything nor does it prove anything because it's very hard to think of every possible scenario in a situation where they could well be near limitless. As a matter of fact, it may be a really good idea to assess the issue with a DM in an organized way and a couple other War Knights if any were willing.

I'm willing to help, of course. I never intended to open old wounds, I just thought it might be helpful to add some DM perspective to an issue that was presented. For those uninvolved, I hope it can be at least seen as a matter of contention, rather than one-sided in either direction. To restate something I said before, it doesn't matter who's right or wrong, what matters is that there's a disconnect: unhappy players, and frustrated DM's.

I'm typically rather available on skype, if any of the War Knights would like to get a group chat together. Feel free to PM me for details with that.

I think player/character loss is a really dynamic issue. Not every player is going to react the same to loss, not every DM is going to handle it the same. It gets even more convoluted when there are two player factions working against each other with the use of DM NPC's. I'll give some more thought to it, and see what I can come up with.

And this is why I made the comment I made about it being better to find tangible solutions. War Knights, you guys are a pretty cool faction, so I hope something happens in the future to help you get back on your greaves again.

Fair enough.

I'd just like to say that yes, you do sound hostile. I don't blame you though. If you have issues with my analysis then feel free to air them now and in future as you have done so. Simultaneously however I will not simply stand aside and let them go unchallenged if I do not feel they are quite fair. I read through your posts, I read all of the posts surrounding them and I read your reply to my previous post and I stand by my assertions, bold they may be but I would not voice them unless I felt it was worth it.

I'd also refute that I took your responses out of context.
The reason I'm not quoting this one in it's entirety is because the second half is not pertinent to our discussion.
The reason my previous post hinged on the idea of your distaste in weakening yourself had a direct connection with my initial reading of your response, namely that you have said that you understand there are consequences, that activities have their responsibilities and that one thing will inevitably lead to another.

Yet your actions say that you are unwilling to accept this fact, as shown by the rapidity by which you became hostile toward me when I simply pointed something out with regards to them. Similarly you are not reacting most graciously to offered solutions from Hackums. It rather reminds me of the Helen Keller quote that goes along the lines of 'Sometimes when one door closes, you've spent so long staring at it that you miss all the open ones.' Yes, you lost something, and yes people have left the server because they felt unfairly treated. Hell I did the same thing myself several years back and I can understand how it feels to have a DM plot apparently just railroad over any plans or intentions you had.

But, there is an opportunity here and you should take it if you wish to continue with this storyline. Don't get your back up, but rather consider aligning what you say with what you do. You are now at the point where things are (historically speaking) the most volatile. You're an armed, experienced group with the potential for outside backers and you have nothing to lose. Go and kick some arse!

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Jys'zyne Do'larn

Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?

I'm sorry you took offense, then. It just feels like you and I are making quite a few assumptions about one another, so I'm going to back away.

This is why the WarKnights self destructed, in more plain terms than I could ever state. No interest was given in the plot, no respect given for the larger area, NPC's and environment in which they built their fortress.

When the plot first began the WarKnights were already on a downward spiral, Malatril to his vast credit was managing to hold the group together, if just barely, and it was talking all of his energy to do it. My hope was that a genuine conflict, a great war, would give the faction a new found sense of purpose and direction, so that they could be a springboard for the plot. Without them, the plot has ground to a halt, that's how essential they were to the equation. At no point was it of value to myself or to the greater story to see them destroyed.

Ultimately the lesson I have learned from the situation is that as much as the playerbase seems to beg for a plot of their own, or for DM interaction. In many cases they simply want to be left alone, they don't want the responsibilities that come with being a part of a larger environment.

I wanted to remind folks that I know its a topic of contention-- but this is a topic constructed for the betterment of future plots, not for reopening wounds. After dinner, I'll open myself up for some Skype chats. I'm really interested in hearing some player feedback on how to improve future plots, rather than how to fix things that already happened.

Very true. I'm sorry for the contempt that was created and as well for (unintentionally, but still)hijacking the thread. I'm just unhappy with how things played out but clearly it's not a black and white situation. As others have said, the best thing to do would be to move it forward another way.

I apologise for any offence taken also, but my stance on what occurred at Ostland still stands. I will gladly join in the Skype conversation also and share any views I have. (So long as it isn't mic chat. >.>)

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I am not a WK, but I know I would not mind being around for the conversation.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

Same, my Skype is "flannyfun"!

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As a player who is still highly part of the Ostland plot, even though it is not moving at all. I do want to comment on this WK matter and some others.

When I initially started this process of getting involved, I first was intimidated by the consequences taking place, however, I accepted them. I told Ego to do what he needed to do and he in return told me great many times "You know this might lead to permadeath of your character." I've not felt Ego was unfair to me as a DM single time, what was unfair was the freaking power I was IC:ly dealing with and IC:ly my character should have known better. However, due to some IC matters, she chose to go forward. I've heard the talks and seen the responses of Ego's action, yet I entirely and wholeheartedly disagree that he is unfair as a DM. At least based upon my experience with him, he gave me great number of options to avoid consequences, yet due to my characters own choosing, she went for them. I accepted it and paid the price, still am paying the price this plot brought upon my character. If Ostland had not happened to Ael'kaenmah, I do believe she would be very different character today. Whereas, my previous statement of plots stagnation remains and I simply dislike the fact that nothing is happening with this, real life sometimes happens.

In the same time, without the plot, I would have missed out in meeting Rigela, Serbiris and Whispers, the interaction between them with Ael actually made my days many great times. The support of these players and the roleplay that happened actually kept me coming back to Amia. At one point I was, rightfully, shunned by pretty much all characters I could meet, whereas I understand the IC perspective of avoiding Ael, it still sucked a lot just be sitting or standing somewhere without being able to do anything, simply because the characters didn't want to deal with Ael. Nonetheless, Rigela, Whispers and Serbiris actually came to me and roleplayed with me.

What comes to the consequences, I accepted them as they were, I still did what I could and when I felt that it was becoming too taxing, I asked Ego if there was a way to get this consequence off, so I could at least be able to speak IC.. As I sucked at emoting and that would have most likely killed my interest to play the character, he listened and made some modifications so I could at least have some interaction with others. This is simply one example of his actions of hearing the player involved.


With the Ostland plot, I realized right away that I needed help in order to deal with the whole matter. I went as far as I could to include other players. I went to Kohlingen, discussed there, which in the end lead to my characters destruction of reputation entirely, something I pay for still IG. I tried the Grove, even though I was not able to get them, my characters reputation was not trusted there either, though they were nicer of it. Winya Ravana I could not include because of the stance it has regarding everything, lets wait and be neutral or not respond at all aaaand the fact my chars reputation was in pieces.

Whereas what has made my interest die has been the fact that in most interactions for whatever reasons I am still paying price for this, no matter if my character was the designer of the Mage Tower and designed a spell to create it as it is today, no matter the work she has done with Winya Ravana otherwise, Ostland became something to define her entirely and something all saw. As I've said before, I do feel it was unfair that High Captain Amilith shot a warning arrow at my character, despise the work she had done to the City and even based on the previous interactions with the man. Now thinking of it, it seems like Captain Amilith, in each time, has been a different character, first not chatty at all, next time chatty.. and third time right in your face disciplined. These are rather narrow examples, but just to give the idea. There is one more matter that annoys me, but not something I will discuss publicly.

In several cases of trying to involve others the response was: "Yeah, were not wanting to get into this OOC:ly" whereas they IC:lly still had interest of knowing of it. They simply didn't want direct contact with Ostland matter.

War Knights, I interacted with you before Malantrils death and was part of your hunting trips, all of it was simply so much fun. However, after Malantril's death and your Keeps being lost, you pretty much faded. And based on the interaction with those who remained, I've only seen very few who actually had the will to fight, most prominently Sanquinius. The rest in IC, seemed simply have given up and to be truthful the OOC mentality you had, didn't really pay any other picture. And don't get this the wrong way, I understand very well the fact of losing motivation. Were it not for the three players mentioned above, I would not be here anymore. The fact that you work on something for so long and get to see it taken away from you so suddenly, sucks. However, the fact you work on a long time and great amount of research and you don't get to see it implemented at all, sucks even more.

I did try to get you involved many times, at one point I was connected with two other parties with whom we probably could have turned the tide, yet the WK's weren't interested. I still will try to involve you guys, as IC:ly I need you in this and OOC:ly I want to see that damn Keep back to you or see us all die trying. In the end, my point is that the fact some of you gave up, played part into this, whereas I was not there in the siege, I do not see the DM who was leading it having played unfairly, at least based by my experience with him.

And now that I remember. I as well want to state that when people take mentality "No, we don't want this in our RP." Is basically when you lose. I've been accepting all the plots coming to Winya.. Which is one.. And then traveling to other places for the rest, it is easier when it is not near your place to go "Well no thanks" and leave, but when it comes to your place.. Drop attitude and deal with it to the bitter end.

Edits: Fixing typos...

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

Most, if not all, the War-Knights did not want to be a part of the Ostland plot in the first place. It's not because we lost, but because we had no interest to be a part of it. We were then forced into making a decision, which cost us our entire faction and base, and so far, because the plot is now dead, we haven't even had the opportunity to attempt to rectify the situation.

We've been waiting 6+ months for our Homeguard and deity idols to be given back to us so we can move on, not a peep from any DM or Ostland whatsoever.

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Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.

I know how long you've been in it, I've been on it about the same time and kept trying to get it moving on. The WK's as a faction was not interested, one has been actively helping on it.

When something takes place in your land, where you chose to build your base, you definetly should be interested and not try to avoid/ignore it. I'm not saying you did this. Yet there are others as well who are paying for participating in it as well have been waiting for more than six months to find conclusion to this.

I'm as well sure the Dm on it wants conclusion, however, it must be very difficult fot him as well for people keep dropping off or not wanting to participate.

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

I have a complaint/suggestion that was triggered by what Magiros just said:


There were two major, ground breaking plots going on when the Ostland plot was happening. The Ostland plot and the Reyes' plot (I might be forgetting one). Speaking as someone that is a Kohl player let me just say how completely stretched thin we were. I got burned out of playing Lucious (who I love a lot as a character) because of that and then things progressing. There's just too much BS to deal with.

Think about it: On the one hand we hand the Ostland plot evolving. Blood mage things were going on there, major upheavals, we were being called in to help and trying to work with having the whole Treaty of Light to fix things. We also had blood-rage beastmen and others knocking on our doors (and attacking other settlements in Amia) that we had to contend with.

Then on the other hand there was the Reyes' plot as it was spinning back into the forefront. So not only were people trying to help with Ostland, but they were trying to do something about Cordor (granted that was a bit later, but here comes my point). It's no wonder people stopped doing something with Ostland when a much bigger threat was presenting itself again. Players and their PCs can only do so much. I had to step away, which is why Lucious has been absent from everything. I just can't take it anymore.

Why is everything so dire? Why are there multiple plots that have such grand and sweeping changes? Why is it all going on at the same time? And why is it always centered around the Amian region (I know that's where we are 'based' as a server, but come one not all of this shit can just conveniently happen only in one place and not affect the rest of the world)? It's nuts, and I cannot stand it!



Even after these two plots we now have other plots that have sprung up. Which is not a bag thing.... if they are small plots. Which I don't believe they are. So we have blood mages on Ostland, blood mages in Cordor, Amnia fucking fleets of death that can crush the whole isle of Amia if they wanted, a resurrected Netherese archmage running Tarkuul, Reyes floating around time doing nefarious time shit, we had a fucking alhoon Ulitharid blowing shit up and causing havoc, goddamned flesh-warped uberbadass far realm things, the list goes on and on.

By all rights, everyone should be dead. I mean, seriously. How the fuck has any of the major PCs survived through all of this? How has Amia not been torn in half? It seriously makes no sense how all of this crap can go on and everything still just goes on like normal to the average Joe Cool PC.

/rant

My point is, I'm all for multiple plots, but why are they so dire and world-ending? Or even just with the Reyes' and Ostalnd one: Reye's is world-ending/changed, and the other is causing mass havoc in the Ruthaym region. It seems like every time I turn around, there's some new end of the world plot happening. Can we just stop?

I understand that DMs want to run cool ass plots, and I love it. But why not just have one Toril-shattering plot, and the others be smaller ones. Like, I can get that if things are going to hell a bunch of pirates (even Galenson's sort of craziness) decide to profit from it. That's neat and it makes sense. There's so many options out there. And hey, if a DM wants to get in on something big, multiple DMs could collaborate on the major Toril-shattering plot. There's room for more, and it makes it more fun, especially if DMs are in different time zones so they can spread the plot-love to a wide range of time zones.

So in closing I want to say:

Down with panties! Up with miniskirts!

Uh... I mean...

Down with major plots! Up with smaller plots!

Or something. Because too much insanity drives people away. It feels like there needs to be divine intervention now more than ever (aka in the starting days of the server). Shit's getting serious, man.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

In my view the problem of having just one major plot is that then the people who want to get in will have increasingly hard time getting inside. I've tried now for couple of months to understand this freaking Reyes thing, but all the time I run into new information and it is simply painstakingly hard to get clear picture, expect for those who are in the heart of it. Granted, they worked for it, yet sometimes I do feel there is exclusion of players. When matters are "important" they suddenly are only for few to find out. And the rest of are left to the maze of information trying to build coherent picture of it all.

In all honesty of the Treaty of Light, I loved the whole political scene of it, the whole amount of work that was needed to remove Winya Ravana from it, naturally I do not know what went on behind the scenes, but I do feel my character was one of the loudest speakers for leaving it. It was very satisfying to see Winya Ravana finally leave the Treaty, just because of the freaking amount of work I had put into having elfs out of it. And even during the Treaty, in my eyes, it didn't work at all, at least I didn't feel like Winya Ravana was included more into the events, what it gave was towards Kohlingen's end more than to us. And I agree, my view is very biased on this matter as my character worked on the other side to get out.

And yeah, I do agree with the one above that every event seems to be so freaking dire. If you don't find solution, everything is dying. Even though someone mentioned before that might not be the case, but from our chars perspective it is so and much revolves around these events. Would be nice to be able to work on treasure findings, hunting artifacts and so on, but the DM's usually are busy with their own plots that in some way are intervened to the major ones.

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm