I'm thinking about something in domain of 17 bard / 10 sd / 3 rogue. Now what are my options when it comes to feats, weapons and so on. Should I go with a -% asf shield, or go dual-wielding? Curse song? Lingering song?
Never really played a bard so I'm rather clueless how effective it is when maxed out and such.
Lasting Inspiration is more important than Uncanny Dodge. 20/10 is superior.
This.
Also, if you do 20/10 remember if you take Bard 20 in epic on one of the level up feats (ie take Bard 20 at level 24 or 27 or 30) you can take Lasting Inspiration still. Bard 21 is not required for it, just Bard 20 in epic and 25 Perform.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
Lasting Inspiration is the Deathless Mastery, the Epic Dodge, the Devcrit and the Perfect Self of Bards. It's what takes you from being a okay spellsword with an admittedly ace AC bonus to something that suddenly turns every struggling build in your party into an engine of destruction.
The only reason I would ever, ever recommend a non-Lasting Bard build is if you'd already made half a dozen of the real kind and just fancied muddling through without it out of sheer masochism.
A Bard is what I call one of the components to the "perfect party". They can cast Mass Haste and, indeed, extended through DCs. They are able to completely throw their party in to turbomode. They turn sneakers in to unseeable entities, fighters in to fully rigid un-knockdownable beings, their song at full potential is something most parties don't desire, but they sorely miss when the Bard goes to bed.
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"Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious and unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder when met"
Swapped INT from 16 to 14, tossed points into CHA (like I originally wanted), though I might drop CHA from 12 to 10 to bump STR... will have to decide later.
Dropped Spot/Listen to 10, again just to account for training their ears when on a mission; not for dedicated detecting. Dropped Bluff/Persuade (*sob*) to 15 each, again to reflect the person being more rogue-y and a smooth-talker. Also chopped a point from Disable and Search.
Still sad I couldn't get Heal in there, too. Oh well, can't have everything!
Problem is I prefer the MS version but .... I run into about 20 less skill points than I need :< Ugh
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
How about weapons on Bard/SD? Weapon + shield? Two weapons? What is the max AB and AC a dex based bard could pull off?
Also according to nwnwiki bard song requires 50 perform in order to pull out maximum from the song. So a bard effectively needs 49 in perform, or there's some benefit if one goes higher than that? For instance a bard with +9 charisma modifier and 33 in skill would end up with 42 perform and require +7 from the items.
I don't think a bard has enough feats to get Ambidex/TWF/ITWF without Fighter levels... I could be wrong! I don't do bards.
As for Perform, yeah if it's 50 then you need to get that 33 Perform, plus the CHA after base and bonus, then items.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
My (drow) dex bard/sd has about 40ish ab when buffed. So it's nothing great, the ac is nice though and sits about 65 or so (which then, isn't that much better than standard bards) she doesn't get epic dodge either, sadly due to the ECL but with it I imagine it'd make it all the sweeter.
_________________ Signature by Maryn! <3 I am also seen as DM Snuffles.
There's no point taking your Perform higher than your Bard levels can use. It's almost always worth arranging matters so that your Perform is at the level such that your Curse Song is at full strength - the skill drain is pretty fearsome.
Bard feats are:
1 3 Extend Spell 6 Curse Song - Do not skip this under any circumstances. 9 12 Maximised Spell 15 18 Blindfight
The blank ones are up to you, but the ones there will need something pretty amazing to justify skipping them. I haven't put epic feats in because bonus feats screw a general guide up.
I found on my Bard23/SD6/Ranger1 that it didn't matter what weapon I used - he could never finish a fight anyway because his damage was so pitiful, so just use whatever's got Regen or stat boosts and let the real combat builds kill stuff. His AC was 65 at a humble 34 capped DEX, 45AB after Curse Song. 40AB on the sheet, but epic Bards never fight anything without Curse Singing first, so you put the AC drain into AB for such comparisons.
Been poking around the different builds. It seems impossible to pick up both ESF in hide/ms, epic dodge, lasting inspiration and end up with an even DEX. +2 DEX subrace is required, and they either have built in +2 DEX on the character creation, or they have -2 penalty to charisma.
And I am totally interested in a Calishite. So, stats would look something like this:
STR 8 DEX 18 CON 10 (9) WIS 9 (8) INT 11 (12) CHA 15 (16)
PS If Bard nukes someone's UMD with his curse song and lowers it enough that a hostile cannot use the armor, will the armor (or any other item) be unequipped?
Joined: 04 Sep 2007 Location: Down South and Bent Edge
Because rarely anyone takes ESF listen and if they do the listen routine sucks balls.
Also as a Bard you can curse song your foe and then extended silence yourself. You are undetectable at that point with regards to Listen.
Quote:
PS If Bard nukes someone's UMD with his curse song and lowers it enough that a hostile cannot use the armor, will the armor (or any other item) be unequipped
No
_________________ I play: Gage le Gris Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
I'm trying to build a Fighter(4)/Wizard(25)/Rogue(1) spellsword focused on Dex and Int, but no matter what I do, even through buffs, I wind up with sub-40 AB. It gets decent AC with Mage Armor, stats, tumble, buffs, etc with the option of Expertise/Imp Expertise, but I don't hit often at all.
I'm grabbing weapon focus/epic weapon focus as well as Weap Spec/Epic Weap Spec. Not sure how to fix this. Do wizard-heavy spellswords just keep Tensers on all the time? What kind of change are we talking through that?
Looking closely at SD and assassin I notice clear differences to the classes, (yes I am a noob at D&D mechanics) what is the benefit of being an assassin? Always wondered this.
Is it the sneak attack and ability to cast invis and a better die roll?
Or is the AB higher too?
Thanks in advance!
_________________ "The Skin is your costume, The Stage is The Enviroment!"
From a purely mechanical aspect, there's little benefit to going assassin instead of SD, but for roleplay it's heaps of fun! Everyone having freedom gear makes it difficult to get the death attacks to do their intended effect, and if you go for the murder ability, you gimp your build by taking high Int. If you want to include both however, the tried and true 10/10/10 rogue/assassin/sd is calling you! Edit: RANGER/assassin/sd, rather.
Last edited by Goldwater on Mon, Jan 20 2014, 14:13 PM, edited 1 time in total.
From a purely mechanical aspect, there's little benefit to going assassin instead of SD, but for roleplay it's heaps of fun! Everyone having freedom gear makes it difficult to get the death attacks to do their intended effect, and if you go for the murder ability, you gimp your build by taking high Int. If you want to include both however, the tried and true 10/10/10 rogue/assassin/sd is calling you!
Deffo looking into that build in the future
_________________ "The Skin is your costume, The Stage is The Enviroment!"
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I'm not sure what the point is of a 10/10/10 split? It seems like you'd end up wasting too many levels going in as an SD and wasting 9 levels going in as an assassin. I have an Epic SD. I like him, but those levels beyond 6 are kind of useless from my POV, even with the Shade Lord.
_________________ Andrew Fryar: Cordor's Folk Hero Bobrin: Eccentric Avenging Executioner Lyle Torrowfire: Retired badass Marigold Cobcruncher: Perceptive Priestess
I'm not sure what the point is of a 10/10/10 split? It seems like you'd end up wasting too many levels going in as an SD and wasting 9 levels going in as an assassin. I have an Epic SD. I like him, but those levels beyond 6 are kind of useless from my POV, even with the Shade Lord.
I agree. Mechanically there's no point going over 6 SD. The level 20 Epic Shade Lord is really good but only if you're fighting something that isn't either immune to negative energy or deals a lot of burst damage. Not really a worthy mechanical buff to lose to what could be say 14 extra rogue levels of extra sneak damage for example.
(But the Shadow Daze cooldown matches the stun rate and it has a high DC)
Only go over 6 SD if you really want to make a Shadowdancer at heart. 10 SD, even for the extra Shadowjumps, isn't worth the 4 lost levels of extra damage in basically any other class.
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"Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious and unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder when met"
I think 10 assassin levels is going to be very underwhelming.
My favorite assassin build is: Monk 6 / Shadowdancer 6 / Assassin 18. I've used it to great effectiveness, but I'm not sure if monk would fit in your character (I admit I didn't read anything beyond the post above mine).
_________________ Remember when I knew a boxer, baby
Alright, I was listening to 'by the Sword' - which got me thinking about Paladins, yet simultaneously had me thinking of how generally geared up Pallies are - whilst this one is more about having no worldly possessions.
So, Monk/Paladin (of Ilmater? A Mercy-bringer to those who suffer?).
Go!
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Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?
Joined: 25 May 2011 Location: Canada, Qc (EST, GMT -5)
Assassin sadly requires a whole load of level investment or too huge of a INT investment to make it quite viable AB vise. And if you go the AB way, you're only getting bonus damage from death attacks, because your DCs for your Assassin superpowers will be way too low to disregard going for SD or Rogue instead, who also are medium AB lines with much more advantages, aka access to Epic Dodge.
_________________ login:mirvala Em'rae d'Ussen d'Vhid No mercy for the kivvil akaAgentOfLyumis
Assassin sadly requires a whole load of level investment or too huge of a INT investment to make it quite viable AB vise. And if you go the AB way, you're only getting bonus damage from death attacks, because your DCs for your Assassin superpowers will be way too low to disregard going for SD or Rogue instead, who also are medium AB lines with much more advantages, aka access to Epic Dodge.
With 14 int and 18 assassin levels, your DC isn't going to be horrible. Remember, you can attack any save. Better if you wear any Int boosting gear. While the paralyze from your Death Attack will probably be resisted by most (whether from the Fort save or just Perma-Freedom on items), your assassin tools have skills that attack any of the saves. When you are choosing your target, you choose the proper tool. If I am going after a cleric, I am not going to attack his Will save. I am going to attack his Reflex save.
Now, I do agree with the very first part of your first line. Assassin isn't really a class to dip into. It's basically meant to be the showcase class of your build.
Also, Assassins have access to Epic Dodge.
_________________ Remember when I knew a boxer, baby
Joined: 21 Jul 2007 Location: The Drone Star State
Goldwater wrote:
My bad, last night that should have read RANGER 10/ SD 10 / Assassin 10, not rogue.
10 SD over 6 for epic dodge, 10 ranger for shield proficiency, ab, full attacks, ITWF, and bonus feat at 10.
I still think you'd be better served by avoiding assassin all together. You'd get more mileage out of going rogue. Maybe a Ranger 10/SD 7/Rogue 13 split or something if you want that Ranger 10 bonus feat. If you're not building around assassin's death attack, there's not really a point in going over 1 assassin level for an extra 1d6 sneak attack if you want it (like, if you're doing rogue 29/Assassin 1 for some reason). Otherwise, you're just wasting your class levels. Rogue nets you more skill points, bonus feats (only one of which needs to be spent on Improved evasion), can pick up crippling strike, and will be able to assassinate better than a dabbling assassin. a closer to full blooded assassin on Amia can take IE and defensive roll as a bonus feat, negating the need to take SD past 6 (or 7 if you really want slippery mind).
I do agree that an epic SD's shadow daze is very fun, though, and the roleplay potential is amazing. I should note, despite being hard on epic SD, I don't regret taking my SD's levels into epic - but I'm only a rogue 16/1 ranger/SD 13
_________________ Andrew Fryar: Cordor's Folk Hero Bobrin: Eccentric Avenging Executioner Lyle Torrowfire: Retired badass Marigold Cobcruncher: Perceptive Priestess
Joined: 04 Sep 2007 Location: Down South and Bent Edge
Going 10 Ranger is silly if all you are after is bonus feats and dual wielding, and the Ranger level 1 stuff especially if you are going Rogue rather than 'sassin.
I guess for me personally Epic Weapon Spec will always beat out the +4/+4 hide/ms a Ranger gets and that is the reality of 10 fighter vs 10 ranger on that build.
_________________ I play: Gage le Gris Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
Monk20/Pally10 is what comes off the top of my head, Numbers. Monk12/Pally8 pre-epic to offset the AB drain from the stat spread. 14CHA rising to 18, the rest into DEX or STR, depending on personal preference.
Monk20/Pally10 is what comes off the top of my head, Numbers. Monk12/Pally8 pre-epic to offset the AB drain from the stat spread. 14CHA rising to 18, the rest into DEX or STR, depending on personal preference.
I did play one of these - It was somewhat difficult to gear up; But with the quarterstaff now scaling with flurry it could be quite interesting. Especially with Divine might/Shield and CHA saves + Monk saves. It would be easy to get 35+40 to all saves.
Joined: 25 May 2011 Location: Canada, Qc (EST, GMT -5)
DerkDerkistan wrote:
Also, Assassins have access to Epic Dodge.
Oh, of course. I wrongly written what I wanted to say; They have access to it, though they would need bigger investment in other classes, and much more meticulous planning. I'd rather roleplay an assassin without picking the class; there are so many more viable options on the market.
_________________ login:mirvala Em'rae d'Ussen d'Vhid No mercy for the kivvil akaAgentOfLyumis
But nothing that earns you the cool-points that a 7 Fighter 5 Master Scout 18 Assassin would earn you!
Looks pretty strong from a first glance. Might have problems with Fortitude but very decent AC and death attacks no doubt. The Permanent Freedom comes in handy, too.
Working on 2 character concepts that require Spellcraft: one is a Ranger heavy build (21+) that would use Spellcraft primarily as a research 'tool' for custom spells (3 bard). The other would be a F/WM who is a 'Maker' (crafting weapons & armor, some wands & potions, thinking 11 Bard)
I've played my fair share of heavy Bard builds & I'm not looking for another. My question is this: with the NWN mechanics, am I just begging for any buff to be stripped by going 3 or 11 Bard?
Joined: 04 Sep 2007 Location: Down South and Bent Edge
Muspelkvist wrote:
MoshingChris wrote:
But nothing that earns you the cool-points that a 7 Fighter 5 Master Scout 18 Assassin would earn you!
Looks pretty strong from a first glance. Might have problems with Fortitude but very decent AC and death attacks no doubt. The Permanent Freedom comes in handy, too.
Almost have to many feats pre-epic?
Ambidex, TWF, ITWF are kind of a must I feel on an Assassin because the Death Attack Paralyze thing rolls for every attack in the first flurry if I remember right. ITWF will make that three attempts at DAP coming out of hide. The first Master Scout feat would be used for Great Fortitude. 7 Fighter for Epic Weapon Spec. 5 MS for Great Dex. 14/18 Assassin for epic dodge pre-reqs. Armor Skin, Epic Dodge and Epic Weapon Spec would round it out.
I'm fairly certain there would be enough feats for Luck of Heroes and that feat that those silly Mulan get at level 1 to. Fort saves wouldn't be to bad. Especially with 6 fighter levels in pre-epic giving you a boost of sorts.
_________________ I play: Gage le Gris Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
Yes. Sadly you are. Even potions you use count off your highest 'Caster level', aka Bard/Paladin/ranger/cleric/sorc/wizard/druid.
Ok, so if the Ranger class counts as a 'caster' for potion purposes, that won't be horrible. I figured I was kinda hosed on the 11 Bard but was hoping the heavy Ranger would help me out for potions on the other build.
Joined: 21 Jul 2007 Location: The Drone Star State
mirvala- wrote:
DerkDerkistan wrote:
Also, Assassins have access to Epic Dodge.
Oh, of course. I wrongly written what I wanted to say; They have access to it, though they would need bigger investment in other classes, and much more meticulous planning. I'd rather roleplay an assassin without picking the class; there are so many more viable options on the market.
On Amia, Assassins can take defensive roll and improved evasion on their Assassin epic feat levels. So, they wouldn't need a bigger investment in anything besides their assassin class.
_________________ Andrew Fryar: Cordor's Folk Hero Bobrin: Eccentric Avenging Executioner Lyle Torrowfire: Retired badass Marigold Cobcruncher: Perceptive Priestess
Hello. I am new to the server and RP, but have been playing on action servers for about ten years. I wanted to play a Paladin and thought I should post her before rolling her out. Please let me know if there are ways to optimize her for your server.
Here are my concerns first:
1. Take DEX to 12 and put INT down to 12. This means my dex is taken care of. This would be a good option if I should take ESF: Discipline or Epic Fortitude. I am not sure if I need them. I would lose Taunt with this option.
2. Keep INT at 14 and take Listen instead of Taunt. I could then take ESF: Listen to help with sneak attack issues.
3. Keep INT at 14, keep Taunt, and keep Expertise for more AC/AB. I don't know how much AC I will need at epic levels.
4. Keep INT at 14, keep Taunt, and get Improved Knockdown for big monsters.
5. I am not sure about RPing a Paladin build with fighter and monk levels. I saw some information on the Amiawiki that shows limitations for playing a paladin, but this information is not on this website, so I don't know if I can multi-class a Paladin the way I have her built.
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