Joined: 22 Jul 2007 Location: under your bed (the netherlands)
My input on this is that if you are evil you proberly are not deeming yourself as evil. Hitler tought he was doing the world a favour and he happens to classified as very bloody bad man. Aka, dont shout stuff like by the unholy powers of bladibla, and cries of doom and evil, wicked. but rather stuff like for the greater good, for the cause of good.
For instance when I play Phalanx I tend to tell people to "avert their eyes from the light blinds them so they can see the truth".
For example of anyone remember the Horsemen of Apocalypse, they thought that they were good folks but missunderstood, because they thought that they are doing good to the island by removing the weak and the helpless folks....
So they made an anti-Defender group which sooner or later confronted with the Defenders of Kohl...and so far their rp was really good. I really wish that some of them were still around.
Also....there is this epic quote from Horsemen Sin Dracor that he said to my paladin, and whose player is unfortunately no longer among us. May he rest in peace!
I myself dont care much for Freddy type villians. They have their place yes but in my view too many people play them rather then the more refined and logical evil types. Anyone can play a character like the Joker... but to play a character like Prof. Moriarti, that takes true skill and makes for a much more interesting villian the the standard texas chainsaw massacre phychopath kind. I dont get much from joker type villians, they are simply too simple and one-sided. All they do is rampage and they never once give a logical reason why except to say that they are chaotic evil. My character's philosophy is much more then simply (because i can) and he would happily give a three hour lecture on why he is evil and may even do such IC in the future. The standard (because thats how i roll) answer just does not work for me. Im not saying one should not play such a character... just that there are too many. There are hundreds of jokers out there but maybe only a few dozen moriarti's and i think we could use more of the latter types. This is however just my opinion. By all means play what you want.
_________________ Osmodius Blackstar - Human Necromancer
Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada
Mrm.. I admit I prefer the kind of villain which makes you not realize they're a villain, or that in spite of being a villain can make you feel bad about trying to put them down.
Failing that, a villain who through a mixture of subtlety, guile and the apt application of power is a compelling sort of villain.
No they can't. Not if they want to do it right. There's far more to The Joker than most people assume.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
As amusing as this is, I don't think the Oscars is a good example of villainy..
That Wilde guy might disagree...but that's already a Gray area...
_________________ "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." - Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Mrm.. I admit I prefer the kind of villain which makes you not realize they're a villain, or that in spite of being a villain can make you feel bad about trying to put them down.
Failing that, a villain who through a mixture of subtlety, guile and the apt application of power is a compelling sort of villain.
That's all fine and dandy, but to have every evil character like that would be a far worse fate for the world. It is better to have a mixture of villains in my opinion. Variety gives room for everyone to find their favourite play-styles, or a suitable nemesis for them to work against.
_________________ Khaldun Menetnashte Khalfani Victor Wilkinson
Again what i said was merely my opinion. I am not saying to ban chaotic evil in any way. I just think that chaotic evil is a very simple and uninteresting alignment. You are evil and you are chaotic... you do what you want when you want how you want and everybody else can f*** off. You roam around doing random acts of evil for no defined reason other then shits and giggles and when asked why you do these vile deeds the only answer you give is "because im evil". You go around being an asshole to everyone you meet, again (because your evil) and make no effort to hide your evil from those who would seek to destroy you. If you pass an orphanage you burn it down in full veiw of the city guard because thats how you roll. If a order of knights and paladins are having a convention you go down there and piss them off just because you can and then when your character ends up dead you whine and bitch about how its unfair that you suffered the consequences of your actions. This is exactly how everyone i know who does chaotic evil plays it and it gets boring and annoying very fast. The joker is a cool character but that kind of in your face, illogical evil just does not do it for me. This is still only my opinion. If you like chaotic evil and can play it without being a moron then by all means do so. All im saying is that the aligmnent is overused and simplistic.
_________________ Osmodius Blackstar - Human Necromancer
Joined: 04 Sep 2007 Location: Down South and Bent Edge
If anything is overused and simplistic on Amia it's the idea that "Smart" evil is always the evil that operates in the Shadows and tries to influence things from the background. It's not hard to play an evil genius when you aren't having any relevant impact on the server at large.
_________________ I play: Gage le Gris Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
Chaotic Evil is not a simplistic alignment. Simple, uncreative people just make it seem that way.
I still hang my hat on being able to play a CE character in a party of characters ranging from good to morally questionable without being immediately slain. CE can be smart and is very capable of possessing a sense of self-preservation, which can mean pretending to fit in with normal society, even when you know there's something wrong with you. Something that's been wrong since as long as you can remember, with no explanation and no cure.
I still hang my hat on being able to play a CE character in a party of characters ranging from good to morally questionable without being immediately slain. CE can be smart and is very capable of possessing a sense of self-preservation, which can mean pretending to fit in with normal society, even when you know there's something wrong with you. Something that's been wrong since as long as you can remember, with no explanation and no cure.
*goes for the highfive*
I did that with a character. People -loved- his emotes and he's partied with anything from rangers to paladins to druids to mages to blackguards and then some. So many like ideas on this subject, haha.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
If you can play it like that then maybe you could teach my friends play smart CE too. None of them knows how to play a smart CE... they spend all their time running around pissing off the servants of light and then whining when they get their asses kicked. I salute you for your ability to play the alignment without being a moron. I just wish others could do so as well...
_________________ Osmodius Blackstar - Human Necromancer
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
That's all fine and dandy, but to have every evil character like that would be a far worse fate for the world. It is better to have a mixture of villains in my opinion. Variety gives room for everyone to find their favourite play-styles, or a suitable nemesis for them to work against.
Otherwise where would Batman get his rogues gallery?
_________________ Gerald Edmund Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433
Joined: 17 Dec 2004 Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia (in Canada)
Ive always found alignment has allot of problematic and poor stereotypes that get associated with them. Especially CE. Ive never understood why when D&D through out its long history has had an insidious cerebral and charismatic array of CE monsters and villains represented. Red Dragons, Vampire lords, Princes of the abyss, Drow Nobles, and more evil mages then you can shake a stick at. There is a long standing tradition of intelligent scheming patient malevolence among CE. Sure CE has its ogres, orcs and dim witted brutes but LE has bearded devils, Hobgoblins and many a dim witted loyal evil henchmen.
Ones alignment should be the result of ones actions not what dictates them and said alignment and actions are shaped by ones ability scores and ones countless background factors. Long and short is when people pigeonhole alignments too much like "Chaotic stupid", "Lawful dumb" or "true boring" it doesn't really help and makes people feel confined by the alignment system Or that alignments have to be played in overly limiting ways.
That said I like every flavor of evil, they all have their own charm and a healthy array of representations in media and the games history. I do however tend to play neutral evil because I like my evil pure.
Outside of the Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic arguement and just focusing on evil, I would have to say -for the most part- but -not always- evil characters are predomantly selfish. These are your "powermad" cliche' type villains so bent on world domination they muster anyone that will assist in their plans which -usually- results in those to stupid to understand there plans or are just in it for the gold, thus you get the bumbling idiot henchmen. Another problem the villain may face is those intelligent "henchmen" that constantly have to be kept in check otherwise they may try to usurp the current "lead" villain's place in the hierarchy whether that be orderly or loosely organized.
Then there are some that "as a character" may have -no- idea they even are evil or what they are doing or how they live is considered evil. I understand that this second type -could- open up the whole other can of worms of -what- is consdered "evil". Thats been ran into the ground and it's not my intent to start that again lol, just make some comments as to different ways characters can be evil.
Again as just stated by Ravenovf these are mainly stereotypes from your "storybook" villain which understandably, at least in a story, you don't want to kill off the hero or let the villain win so what reason would the villain have to lose? Normally thats somewhere among the henchmen. Either they don't do exactly as needed in certain situations or the villain sends them out for important missions with a mini-boss type villain and it's foiled by the heroes by them somehow getting wind of where the mastermind will strike next. Humwhahahahaha...uh sorry got a bit carried away there.
But what if we we're writing a story that's actually expected to be read by a villainous audience. How would the rules change? Maybe patience would be a prime value among villians. Possibly a set of checks and balances and a more thorough recruiting process resulting in better and possibly loyal and smarter henchmen. Maybe even a "caring" villian that shares the wealth equally among the group...-mostly- I mean their should be perks for being the leader. Would the villain try to learn the heroes weaknesses, something about the heroes family and/or address? A smart villain could -really- have heroes worried and they -never- lay sight upon the Mastermind. lol Feel free to tear this apart but it's just some points to ponder I thought I'd put out there.
Favored Quote: "This above all: to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man." -Shakespeare
Joined: 17 Dec 2004 Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia (in Canada)
Unless one as a deadline to keep, say by murdering the last daughter of a certain noble family at just the right time when the stars align so that they can summon great Cthulhu from his deep slumber in sunken R'leyh! ... er ahem back on track... an evil doer should indeed hold patience as a virtue. The red dragon doesn't need to hunt down the human knight in his prime when he can let age take its toll and watch feebly as the dragon murders everything he holds dear on his death bed.
The very fact evil is at its core selfish and cruel in my mind would lead evil beings to the mindset of acting when they hold the cards, Getting what they want but with as much advantage and as little personal risk as they can get. After all most evil creatures value their own life above just about everything else. If you feel an inkling of Martyrdom or something as disgusting as true selflessness your probably veering away from what it means to be evil. Not that everyone who serves evil is evil. Plenty of gods with evil alignments can have neutral worshipers and ones minions don't have to be as wicked as their master.
From an evil point of view I think Ambition, patience, ruthlessness, guile, revenge and above all victory are key to the protagonist or antagonist as the case may be. I won't lie I like evil who sets out to be evil, knows they are bad, very bad selfish people and revels in that knowledge even if just in secret. Of course that's just me. Evil is like a rainbow of very bitter, sour and poisonous flavors.
Having had much success with my mage i now can give several tips on how to play evil and get away with it.
1. Don't be evil in public. This is a no brainer, if you do evil shit in public people are going to see it and know you are evil. After that your ass getting kicked is only moments away. If you have to do evil in public try to find a reason you can use as a viable excuse. Say bandits attack the town and you slaughter them even after they surrender and in a very nasty and painful way. You can simply say "I was defending the town and they are only bandit filth anyway" and you will likely not be punished for your savagery.
2. Try to limit your evil acts to only those needed. If you spend every second of every day doing nothing but evil acts or go around being an asshole constanly you are going to get your ass kicked. If you can get through your day being benevolent and only have to do evil once or twice that day then not only will people not think you evil but they may even come to like you and defend you against the more proactive good characters. Evil should only be done when it is needed or when the benefit it would provide you is great enough to outweigh the risk.
3. Always have a reason for why you are evil. Nobody likes a villian who can't give a reason why except for "Because im evil and thats how i roll". Be creative people...
4. Try to make friends with the good guys. Yeah this sounds counter-productive but if you can manage to stay on their good side you can do evil that much easier and besides... allies are always nice to have even if they are good.
5. If people eventually learn the truth about you strive to make sure they cannot find viable proof. If they can't prove you are evil and that such are not just rumors and slander spread against you then the good guys often cannot move against you. Beware however that a certain type of good guy out there probably does not give a shit and will come after you even if they can't prove it and coming after you would be illegal. These are the good guys to be feared above all others.
More tips will be coming soon...
_________________ Osmodius Blackstar - Human Necromancer
Chaotic Evil is not a simplistic alignment. Simple, uncreative people just make it seem that way.
I still hang my hat on being able to play a CE character in a party of characters ranging from good to morally questionable without being immediately slain. CE can be smart and is very capable of possessing a sense of self-preservation, which can mean pretending to fit in with normal society, even when you know there's something wrong with you. Something that's been wrong since as long as you can remember, with no explanation and no cure.
They're called "high-functioning pyschopaths / sociopaths"
Lot's of good advice sprinkled in this thread. I think, to begin, this is the best model to start out with:
Glim wrote:
The first and most important piece of advice that comes to mind for me, is to make evil characters real people.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
1. Don't be evil in public. This is a no brainer, if you do evil shit in public people are going to see it and know you are evil. After that your ass getting kicked is only moments away. If you have to do evil in public try to find a reason you can use as a viable excuse. Say bandits attack the town and you slaughter them even after they surrender and in a very nasty and painful way. You can simply say "I was defending the town and they are only bandit filth anyway" and you will likely not be punished for your savagery.
2. Try to limit your evil acts to only those needed. If you spend every second of every day doing nothing but evil acts or go around being an asshole constanly you are going to get your ass kicked. If you can get through your day being benevolent and only have to do evil once or twice that day then not only will people not think you evil but they may even come to like you and defend you against the more proactive good characters. Evil should only be done when it is needed or when the benefit it would provide you is great enough to outweigh the risk.
3. Always have a reason for why you are evil. Nobody likes a villian who can't give a reason why except for "Because im evil and thats how i roll". Be creative people...
4. Try to make friends with the good guys. Yeah this sounds counter-productive but if you can manage to stay on their good side you can do evil that much easier and besides... allies are always nice to have even if they are good.
5. If people eventually learn the truth about you strive to make sure they cannot find viable proof. If they can't prove you are evil and that such are not just rumors and slander spread against you then the good guys often cannot move against you. Beware however that a certain type of good guy out there probably does not give a shit and will come after you even if they can't prove it and coming after you would be illegal. These are the good guys to be feared above all others.
555444333 wrote:
6. Don't wear black, don't dress in black, don't have black in your name !
Five out of six already broken. Yolo. Fuck the system.
At the risk of blowing a former trumpet of mine, I think I did fine work with Va in taking the concept of Chaotic Stupid and running with it. I could never play him right without two pots of coffee and a bottle of whisky after playing nice characters all day without eating, and now that I'm on the wrong side of 30, I just can't and/or won't do that to myself anymore.
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