AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

I think you misunderstood me... or I wasn't clear.... Helm wouldn't support Blackguards.

Ah, yeah. I got confused. You mentioned Paladins in the same sentence as deities not wanting them.

I see what you mean now!

I think they are still working on the Blackguard FAQ.

However, to answer you question, I think every pact is supposed to be unique, the only common thing they have is that they are with an evil outsider or with a deity.

Most common way to become a BG:
- Your character seeks out an evil outsider.
- Your character is fooled by an evil outsider. (Faust)
- Your deity powers the BG or sends down a servant to make a pact with your BG. (I think the latter one is the commonly used version of the Amian deity based Blackguards.)

As for Hoar I think I've seen more than one BG of Hoar around during my time here. The reason why Hoar would allow both paladins and BGs because he is also "conflicted" if not insane as a god. Both the good and the evil side try to influence him since the Time of Troubles, which makes his own perspective on justice rather *coughs* abstract.

I'm going with #3. Thanks.

I would rephrase number 3 after doing some reading. From what I can see you have to make a pact with an evil outsider, while serving the deity. It is a 2 in 1 thing and the god will probably send down a servant to seal that pact with your character, that way he can claim your soul for his own domain no matter what. It is harder to escape from the dark side!

Source?

I googled it and wizards.com and realmshelp.net says that their source is Dungeon Master's Guide 3.5. I don't have that sourcebook though, so if someone can look it up it might make it credible!

If they are talking about the core DnD guide, that could be irrelevant since FR changes up some things. I don't care either way, myself, but a DM ruling/reminding would probably be a real good idea here.

I can only imagine how many BG's we have on Amia.... no one had this much issue becoming one.... *sighs*

It's a readily available prestige class man. Don't let the opinion of others make this more difficult than it needs to be.

And there is the voice of reason. Thank you Gorgometh.

Most of the time no one pays attention to that sort of thing. I've seen BGs who just magically have these powers (yay dat RP), and I've seen really really well played BGs. But it's good to know what can/can't happen cause you don't want a DM to go 'uh, what, that's not possible!' down the line, lol. I personally see nothing wrong with playing that way.

And I think it's more making sure he can do it before the team says 'Hey wait a minute...'. Which is a good thing!

That Guy: What gorgometh said! It is always good to ask questions though just to make things sure.

I cannot see any FR specific source on Blackguards only DMG 3.5. The FR Champions of Ruin have a few specialized evil PRC, but none of them are blackguards.

Either way, using common sense and the Amian tradition lore, your blackguard needs a pact to become a blackguard. However, even if the Blackguard is deity based, there is little to no chance that said evil deity will come down and make a pact with you directly, so he will likely send down a divine servant to do that.

I hope that answers!

Yes. I would like to think the spirit of the conversation was an attempt to be helpful, inspiring, or something equally good. I don't see anyone here telling you not to make a BG, That Guy. Some paths to power are simply much easier to explain and roleplay than others, but not everyone wants easy!

Yes, I know, and sorry for being snippy. It's just, I have been working on this for a while.... had some answers, and then.... BAM, some of those were contradicted. Makes one grumpy.

I fully intend to rp the pact and all that. I was simply curious if I NEEDED DM oversight for it, which, no one has said I do, so I assume I don't?

Lutra has it right... use common sense and Amia tradition. That was my plan all along.

Thanks all who contributed.

Yeah you don't need a DM to oversee it unless it's something 'special' (aka different than the norm), unless you want the added fluff/fun of a mini-event for the char.

Ok... I had it in the backstory, ran that by a DM and they gave an OK on it, so... I'd write up the rp of it, but... doing an event of it seemed kinda... odd.

Ok... questions answered! Thank you all!

You don't need oversight but it would be cool if you got it right? While DD and PM can get away without DM oversight I feel like BG really shines with a good DM role playing the fiend. I had the pleasure of having a DM help me with my rituals back with my old BG Shane and to this day it is one of my most memorable moments.

What he said. I had DM over sight as well. It gets pretty intense. BG's inherently have a ton of rp depth, so if done right, they make for very, very interesting characters.

Lutra wrote:

Either way, using common sense and the Amian tradition lore, your blackguard needs a pact to become a blackguard.

Have to say I disagree with this frankly, and passing it off as "common sense" isn't really being fair, I don't think. There's nothing in FR lore to support this assumption. Friendly contact could mean anything. A rite of passage for your religious order, perhaps. Or a required "exposure to true evil" to really make sure the character can look it in the eye without flinching. Many PRCs have knowledge prerequisites. It could be interpreted as a way to make sure the character is knowledgeable in safe summoning before working on his own fiendish servant. Perhaps the evil outsider is a divine messenger for the religious blackguards.

I imagine every deity, every church, every faction within a church, every organization (Zhentarim, Shadovar, Shadow Thieves, Thayans, whatever) probably has their own take on how they train and initiate their blackguards, given the flavor text for them being "generals of evil". The blackguard lore in the DMG never mentions pacts. Neither Fiendish Codex mentions blackguards aside from giving them some extra spells (or listing them as classes the demons/devils themselves have). The sections on pacts never mention blackguard levels as being an available reward.

While I certainly think you -can- pact your way into blackguardhood, it strikes me as the nontraditional, lone wolf way of going about it, that just happens to be -vastly- overrepresented on Amia.

When I see anyone saying things like "done right" in reference to DM involvement, it makes me want to pump the brakes. Making decisions off of personal preference and role play interest is not right or wrong. It's how you decide you want to have fun.

Looks like That Guy got what he wanted out of the discussion on this.

And NC has the right of it in my opinion, based on my own research as well.

To clarify, my version of 'done right' is 'lore approved'

Some evil patrons are also more likely to make pacts than others, such as Devils. Those are pretty popular on Amia and could explain the number of those type of encounters.

Blackguard Special Requirement in PnP states that they must have made peaceful contact with an Evil Outsider summoned by him or someone else. I think this is where a lotta folks get hung up on the notion of pacts.

Well, I was under the impression that dealing with fey or evil outsiders (or with good outsiders too) usually comes with a price, and the blackguard powers probably come with a great price. Maybe using that logic made people rely on the "deal" or the "pact" idea.

A price could also be a sacrifice, or an a la carte service of individual offerings or deeds over time instead of a binding contract.

Grymia wrote:

Blackguard Special Requirement in PnP states that they must have made peaceful contact with an Evil Outsider summoned by him or someone else. I think this is where a lotta folks get hung up on the notion of pacts.

This is open to extreme interpretation, and in any PnP campaign, would be decided upon between the Player and DM. Because BG is an available class to all, without a Request, you're welcome to interpret it as you see fit (within lore, in my opinion), even if the Evil Outsider contact is a simple conversation. There does not have to be a pact or deal, or price paid for such, if that's not the route you want to take. Like Gorgy said, have fun!

Kudark wrote:

There does not have to be a pact or deal, or price paid for such, if that's not the route you want to take. Like Gorgy said, have fun!

1. Make a pact
2. Submit yourself to an evil deity

As far as I know, there is no way around it.

This is a good discussion, but if you want to continue it can I suggest making another thread? This is for general questions and the question has been answered. I don't want people's questions to get lost in the discussion here.

Crossbows. How the heck do they work with APR? Rapid Reload claims you get your APR (so, say, 4 APR with crossbow on a 4 APR character). Is that right? How does that differ from longbows?

Basically trying to see if I'd prefer longbow or heavy crossbow on the Zen Archer cleric I'm working on. Everyone always says crossbows are shit in NWN but never why, haha.

Naivatkal wrote:

Crossbows. How the heck do they work with APR? Rapid Reload claims you get your APR (so, say, 4 APR with crossbow on a 4 APR character). Is that right? How does that differ from longbows?

Basically trying to see if I'd prefer longbow or heavy crossbow on the Zen Archer cleric I'm working on. Everyone always says crossbows are shit in NWN but never why, haha.

This, and the fact Crossbows don't work with Arcane Archer. Furthermore; the bolts on Amia aren't good at all, especially when compared to the juicy on-hits available to both short/long bow and AA builds.

That's sort of what I figured, but wasn't sure about everything behind it. Never used a crossbow at all (gee wonder why hah!) so I wanted to make sure. Longbow and crossbow both would work for the char, just nice to make sure it's not a terrible, terrible choice.

So basically max APR with crossbow is 5 (haste plus Rapid Reload) and max with a bow is 6 (haste plus Rapid Shot; though with -2 AB on all the attacks) correct?

Crossbows suck because you need to take an extra feat just to use them properly. There's no other weapon in the game that requires one specific feat to use one weapon fully. Those closest you come is the double weapons requiring all the two-weapon fighting feats, which suck for the same reason (but amplified by needing more feats).

Bows put off more shots, and have higher crits, get better ammo, and work with AA. Then rapid shot just exacerbates the situation. Xbows get the higher crit range, and lower crit multiplier, which doesn't work at all with the lower rate of fire. They really should get the higher crit range AND multiplier, with a penalized rate of fire. You could at least do something with that.

However, doing a Zen Archer cleric build, you might get around this some. Being cleric your AB and AC will be high regardless of weapon, and your damage will be about the same across weapons too. So you can focus on missile to support your summon, and not really miss too much switching to melee. Clerics get into the 50's AB barely even trying.

The thread "New Rule: Of Wings and Curtains and becoming Quasimodo" is locked, so asking here.

How does the new cloak model, with wings incorporated, work with this decision? Is that cloak an exception to the wings revealed thing? Do you have to have wings to use that model? I haven't seen a ruling on this posted anywhere, but we have a few model parts now, freely available to all, that seem like they would require IC reasons to use. It seems odd to have a rule saying people with wings cannot hide them with freely available cloaks, but people without them can use the freely available model that shows them having wings (or dragon scaled thighs, whatever).

Casvenx:

If your character does not have wings, draconic traits or so on, DO NOT use item models that show your character as having these traits. These traits require a request or specific classes, and if you do not have a valid RP reason, don't use them. If you're found to be using a model that provides you with wings/racial traits without a valid reason, the item (and potentially the character) may be removed. Don't do it, there's no excuse.

And as before, if your character -does- have wings, you can't hide them under a cloak.

Just to be clear, This is the wings+cloak model I'm talking about:

It's in game now, and I've seen people using it... Ones I don't think have wings. Not trying to rat people out or anything here, but saying that maybe it's not totally clear that this is in fact a wing model. I don't know if wings display on that model, but it seems silly to say characters with wings can't us it if they don't. Sorry if this is just making you repeat yourself, but I don't think saying that the rule is cloaks must display the wings if you have wings actually answers if that cloak model is or is not an exception. Maybe this needed it's own thread, or an addendum to the thread about the wing+cloak decision.

I'm very much in support of the rule, by the way, I just think it would be beneficial to point out now specifically if that using that model actually means you have wings (and/or possibly for use in disguises with DM approval?).

Honestly, I don't think that looks anything like wings. A neat cloak with spiky bits at the end, but not wings. The structure is completely wrong for it to be anything other than maybe one very weird 'wing' in the center of someone's back. I personally wouldn't penalize somebody for wearing that cloak, nor would I consider that valid for a winged character to wear over their wings. I also checked with a few of the other DMs and they agreed on that.

Yeah I think it's supposed to be made from wings, not stand in for live ones

Can earth genasi learn other spells besides stoneskin? Like greater stoneskin, earthquake, etc. through study? How does a genasi know he can already use stoneskin on himself, and could he do more?

6_Shot wrote:

Can earth genasi learn other spells besides stoneskin? Like greater stoneskin, earthquake, etc. through study? How does a genasi know he can already use stoneskin on himself, and could he do more?

Like any filtered down bloodline, it's possible to awaken the bloodline and gain more of your ancestor's abilities. Obviously needs to be requested and the genasi's build would be taken in to consideration, but I see no reason why you couldn't 'do more'.

Does the Stoneskin ability from earth genasi (and others like Darkness and such) scale with character level? I can never find an answer to that.

No, they're all fixed level (Level 7 Stoneskin, Level 3 Darkness)

Figured. What about the ones from the other races? Any idea what they are capped at?

AFAIK they're all the lowest Spell level the toolset allows them, to stop starting off with OP level 15 fireballs and such.

Yeah that makes a heck of a lot of sense, hah.

I'm not going to put this in tech support since it's not really breaking my game.

But some of the people in the new clothes have the new clothing float out of their bodies? Is this an issue with me not having the ACP or something?

Potentially! Shove this in your override and see if it fixes it: http://www.mediafire.com/download/g1jp3 ... 10_2010.7z

I think it was, yes. I had that problem, and after downloading ACP with the fix, it stopped showing up.

I've got a quick question.

Should I consider the Forum Post or the the wiki to be the most up-to-date version of the changes to summon spells.

I suspect the forum post, but I want to check for sure.

Thanks in advance!

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