AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

You can find a way for a few people to wipe a party with only Lesser Missile Storm and Balagarn's Iron Horn.

Evaluate the spell in a normal situation, not a hypothetical perfect situation with skilled players.

Hellball is a 50d6 aoe that can kill parties with the right chain. It doesn't need a buff, it just isn't optimal for pvp and that's fine.

Missile storms are guided weapons and greater sanctuary will protect from that, iron horn can be protected against by spell resistance. Hellball can be affected by DR but hits an area almost as large as your line of sight with an infinite amount of targets as long as they're in the blast range. With elemental shield, negative energy protection and the 10 positive DR; 10d6 fire, 20d6 negative, and 20d6 positive turns into 5d6 fire, 10d6 negative and 20d6-10 positive averaging to about 105 damage from 165. Dealing 105 saveless damage to even one target is very strong for something you can do in half of a round, almost as powerful as a full maximized missile storm except better because the damage is delayed one round and is easy to chain with another nuke, most often Greater Ruin. The spell doesn't need a buff, just because it's not going to instantly win a fight every time someone uses it doesn't make it underpowered. Forcing a whole party to stop and heal is a great effect in a battle even from just one single hellball. On top of all of this the visual effect is very disorienting to the player and acts as a sort of flash bang in certain environments.

Pretty sure bubbly makes you immune to the negative damage, not half. Either way, it is a fine spell, mostly. I just felt like the KD it has default would be nice to have back. For an Epic Feat it is kind of meh. PvP or PvE. Actually, both of the epic spells that deal damage are kind of lame when it comes to PvE. Yes, GR does some damage. ONCE. Hellball, useful vs a big spawn of dudes i guess, ONCE. Just does not feel like these 1/day spells are really useful outside of kill stealing for laughs, a little extra flair. So the thought comes to mind, which may not be scriptable, but in believe in PnP you have as many 10th lvl slots as one for every 10 lore. In theory would could set it up to just count base lore, and let casters use their epic spells 3 times per day. Drawing from the same pool of 'slots' though so you could do EDK, HB, GR and you are done. Or do HB x3. Obviously a CD might be warranted to avoid 3 HB in rapid order. But maybe we're getting a little too complex here.

Mostly just brainstorming, i really do appreciate what attention casters are getting and am not trying to cry out "Gimme Gimme MOAR!"

Bubbly used to make you immune.

Spell Changes wrote:

Negative Energy Protection

Negative Damage Immunity changed from standard 100% down to 50% + 5% per Spell Focus in Abjuration (55% for Spell Focus, 60% for Greater Focus, 65% for Epic Focus).

EdwardVB wrote:

Hellball is a gigantic AoE nuke and because of this I don't think it needs any sort of buff. Multiple casters can wipe the floor with a huge PC party by self casting it simultaneously after an allied time stop+mass haste and pointing their greater ruins at the more durable targets. Adding a knockdown or any sort of damage bonus to this already tremendous spell would be absolutely ridiculous in my opinion.

na. you can mitigate most of it.

Or just crash everyone after casting it.

I think it should be 10504 divine damage no save bypasses SR extends beyond line of sight bypasses damage immunity

Why not just make it all 3 saves versus death, adds +50 to the DC, kills everyone on the server list?

Oooh! It should sink the island too!

(For those who didn't realize... that is completely joking, not sarcasm)

Lay off the petty mockery and stay on topic. Thank you.

I was literally one of the original people to start making suggestions for Hellball after someone brought it up, I'm not mocking anybody dude. I don't think anybody else is either. Have we really become this much of a protected safe-space community?

Anyway, I stand by the idea that some kinds of crowd control, maybe with a save, would be neat for hellball. It hits the Caster anyway, so it's not necessarily a 1-trick win button. Fail your save, and you tripped yourself, lol.

Realtalk just put the KD back if you do anything.

Add a save to the KD, no save to the damage; let the save be a flat DC based on CL and increased by spell focuses. Profit.

It's not like everyone and their granddaddy doesn't have 30-45 Fortitude to begin with.

Directly offensive Epic Spells are tricky, and IMHO a pretty horrible thing one way or another. It's a one-shot deal for a feat. It's a balance between making that one shot worth it for the caster to invest in getting it, versus not screwing over everyone else for the sake of making it feel worthwhile.

Rather than outright increase the damage or hard CC effects of the spells, particularly Hellball, I'd go with some added utility. Perhaps a large AoE of slow and a DoT. I'd rather see that over the saveless KD coming back.

Fire results in Immolation, Fire DoT
Negative results in Doom and or Slow or some other debuff
Positive gives Regen and Diseases.

Or something like that. If anything!

Dark Immolation wrote:

Directly offensive Epic Spells are tricky, and IMHO a pretty horrible thing one way or another. It's a one-shot deal for a feat. It's a balance between making that one shot worth it for the caster to invest in getting it, versus not screwing over everyone else for the sake of making it feel worthwhile.

Rather than outright increase the damage or hard CC effects of the spells, particularly Hellball, I'd go with some added utility. Perhaps a large AoE of slow and a DoT. I'd rather see that over the saveless KD coming back.

That could work too -- but only if both effects were also save less.

You either do this or a KD with a Fortitude save, because what's essentially a level 30 only feat is currently 'mostly' disappointing compared to, say, epic dodge. Just because something 'can' be useful doesn't mean that it balances out to the value of its investment. Up to mid 200s damage in one shot is on point -- but in its current form, you can literally mitigate it enough that a merchant buyable bandage will heal 100% of its damage; to the extent that Greater Ruin is a straight up improvement if you can't get both.

TLDR: Hellball's current 'utility' is basically 60-200 more damage to a Greater Ruin, which will simply stop being more useful than say, +4 to saves or another spell focus could be; when people figure out how to block it.

Edit: Alternatively, the value of the spell could vastly improve if Undeath's Eternal Foe and Negative Energy protection stopped stacking already since they were never meant to from the get go <_<

What if the damage scheme was changed for hell ball? We could reduce some of the negative and add blunt for concusive damage that seems to keep with the theme of the spell.

It could be 10d6 fire and 15d6 positive, negative and blunt

add some more dice to it of various elements. yes fire/electric/sonic/acid/cold dmg is resistible, but if you throw it all in the spell is far less trivial to marginalize. which is the issue now, frankly.

you could also make it 20d6 magic/poz/neg. it would boost the base damage and make the most easily resisted dmg of the spell not as easily resisted, so only the neg dmg could be realistically resisted. it would also be a good buff to arcane casters, as spells like 'shield' reduce magic dmg as opposed to melee ppl, who have more hp.

Commie's idea.

I enjoy Commie's idea.
Still possible to resist part of it, but it's way more fractional instead of 'most' of the spell.

I like it too. Mages get some neat bonus for abjuration focus in that they're now able to protect against a hellball, and hellball gets a slight buff to make it -actually- do damage vs players.

i also like it because 3 "20d6's" just sounds better to me then 10 20 20.

i like that it's saveless and don't want to add some token fort/ref save and frankly introduce more randomness to pvp. i think that due to the high spellcraft req it should just be the ultimate nuke. given how it's 'aftereffects' are treated on-server after someone lets loose a hellball it deserves to be the most desired aoe nuke. also it hurts you too so be careful you don't reap what you sow.

though if i fully had my way i'd lower the spellcraft requirement a tiny bit so ECL races could get it.

The 20d6 Negative/Positive/Magical would work.

Something like 15d6 Fire/Positive/Negative/bludgeoning for the concussion effect could work too.

I do kinda fancy the idea of some lingering secondary effects though. The Immolation effect for example with maybe a G.Thunderclap style save/effect which i think someone else spoke of.

I think spell-focuses should do something to all epic spells not just Mummy Dust and epic conjuration for Dragon Knight.

Xenos wrote:

The 20d6 Negative/Positive/Magical would work.

Something like 15d6 Fire/Positive/Negative/bludgeoning for the concussion effect could work too.

I do kinda fancy the idea of some lingering secondary effects though. The Immolation effect for example with maybe a G.Thunderclap style save/effect which i think someone else spoke of.

honestly i don't like a conc effect or kd on hellball. just some raw dmg.

also 15d6 of 4 damage types, with fire, neg, and bludgeoning being easily resistible, is a bad plan and would just make hellball worse then it is now. that's why i like the 20/20/20 spread, the ppl it would gib have spells that let them not get gibbed by it, others can still tank it because it's 200 dmg ish with 1/3rd of it being easy to resist.

Meh, i can see the value in yours, but something about what i suggested feels more fun and chaotic to me. Throw a hellball and all sorts of shit happens! Also ESF:Evo could increase the duration of the effects, just like it does with G. Thunderclap.

i see what you mean, but mummy dust tailors itself to your spell focus. making hellball, a feat, just 'better' with like evocation would make it... kind of lame for all the non-evokers.

i like it being feat-independent for that reason.

I don't think the epic spells need any spell focus benefits outside of the mummy dust durations. Otherwise all you're telling everyone is that evocation is mandatory now.

yup i agree

But really, evocation is mandatory

Are there plans to give bonuses to people who dedicate to a school of magic?

There are currently no plans to effect changes for wizard schools. For my part i didn't want to add more inherent imbalance between wizards and sorcerers. Wizard is already pretty plainly superior in everything except simple 1v1 counterspell spam duels imo, due to the prevalence of wizard spell slot gear and a lack of the same for sorceror to such a degree.

Pretty accurate assessment honestly. wizards have an advantage in DM events and with pnp abilities as well, because of their ability to learn basically any arcane spell imaginable, and they also have sweet bonus feats.

Sorcerers are still awesome and great at nuking/dispelling/counterspelling, but I'd like to see some interesting sorcerer gear added, I might roll a sorc up at some point if they get a little love. I don't know what exactly they should get tho.

Not to mention wizards are INT based for more skill dumping opportunities... Yes! Please give the sorcy some love !

The 4 bonus feats is a pretty huge disparity too considering spell foci.

Even if wizards didn't get more skills and have sweet gear, being able to work in more foci or metamagicks is huge

I would like to see more items for ranger spells, I think I've seen 5? There used to be more, but they seem to have disappeared over the years.

I'd like to see more sorc items that give them more spell slots.

Sort of the big draw of sorc, more spells to cast, is a bit diminished when wizard can just equip almost every slot with bonus spell slot gear and do the same.

The biggest draw of the sorcerer is versatile selection at any given moment. A sorcerer can cast and spell they want without having to prepare it, which is an insanely useful edge in combat. If you catch a wizard in the wrong book, they're probably going to have to sanctuary out of there or die.

Sorcerer really is probably the strongest class on amia, even with Cleric being so amazing right now. Especially now that evocation has changed to allow blaster casters to thrive.

Unless a challenge, plot, or enemy require more than blindly pounding an enemy's face into the ground.

In which case Sorcerer, most sorcerers at least, are SOL. People seem boil "strongest" down to whoever can win in a drop-of-the-hat pub match. In which case Terrifying Rage Barbarian still holds the bigger stick in that fight. Any way, it's not like it's that hard to "plan" a Wizard's spell book. Maybe a Red Dragon Disciple catches you on your way back from Frost Giants, and you're a bit screwed because all you memorized were variations of Fireball, Firebrand, and DBF. Other than that, it's not rocket science in how to prepare a general spellbook for anything else. And if you're using more than 1-3 spells from any individual spell level in one particular PvP instance, something's gone horribly wrong with the fight already. Commie is right on the spell slots; it is very easy to get additional spell slots on Wizard and balance out one of the class's intended drawbacks. But I don't foresee giving Sorcs even more castings as exactly the answer(if indeed one is needed).

I'd still like to see some Sorcerer feats/abilities that make the class feel different than Wizards. Not necessarily more powerful--people seem not to be able to imagine that as possible, but I see that as, well, a lack of imagination more than anything. That and a pre-disposition to construe literally any change as a world-ending increase. Anyway from what gathered from Terra, the things I had in mind are possible, but would require a HAK update. Someday. Someday, Skip Williams, I swear.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Unless a challenge, plot, or enemy require more than blindly pounding an enemy's face into the ground.

In which case Sorcerer, most sorcerers at least, are SOL.

Actually sorcerers can pound a lot of things to dust unless the opponent they are fighting is mechanically designed to be immune to all a sorcerers tricks.

Good thing most of our plots are solved via unplanned PvE and our endgame monsters generally lack tons of resistance, all-around high saves, evasion, and/or mind immunity...

The recent changes mean a reflex vs damage sorcerer isn't patently insane. That's about it. You don't have to be mechanically designed to be immune to all a sorcerer's tricks to invest in a well-time heal potion, a scroll or two, and for godsake not initiating PvP halfway across the tileset. That last thing gets me more than anything, and it's truly why I wish we could add a grapple mechanic just to drive home the point that a passing thought towards logistics goes a long ways.

Suggestion for the Summon I-IX Series and Conjuration

Conjurers and the server as a whole could benefit if our summons were scaled not solely off of the spell used, but a combination casting ability and feats(like the DC for other spells are determined).

For most classes with Summoning, it's a mad dash to use the highest possible rank at all times. Once you achieve that rank, there's no reason to ever go back. For Bards and Sorcs, it means your known spells fall off very fast, and you're always pushed to know the highest you can or be useless. For Rangers and Bards, it means by the time you finally get a summon, it's long been useless and on the offchance it's not, you'll soon outgrow it anyway. With a sort of score-based system, lower summoning spells could stay relevant for longer. You of course won't(and shouldn't) have the best summons out there if you're using a lower spell rank, either from not wanting to use a higher slot or simply not having access to higher summoning spells. But at least there's the chance of getting something out them, actually based upon a wider scope of things than simply spell level.

This is my example, but note, it's only spitballing to give a general idea of what I mean. I'd have to give it a thorough look over to really see what would be a feasible, balanced formula at all levels.

*Summon I is untouched, so we don't inadvertently inflate the power of people's DC summoned companions and whatnot.

TL;DR: Each summon has a static "DC" to call them forth. The creature called is no longer determined purely by spell rank, but by a combination of things that determine the power of most other spells.

-Conjuration-focused casters gain more powerful summons faster. They, in the end, do no have to always use their most powerful Summon # Spell to call forth their most powerful creatures.
-Lower-ranked Summon # Spells can be useful past the level you gain them.
-Rangers and Bards, while still generally not having access to the most powerful summons, at least have more usable summons in relation to their character levels and when they mechanically receive their spells. Even so, if someone wants to go caster-based Bard or Ranger with a Conjuration feat to two to have a good summon, more power to them...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I can subscribe to the above -- albeit with the caveat that it basically re-enforces the Conjuration staff as the master race of starter gear for caster builds. Buffing the summons and making 'what' they summon a level based scaling seems about proper in the same measure though -- and I'd kinda be a proponent of making the summoning spells work from a table that caps based on what level spell you're summoning with, like how Gate, undead, and Planar summoning works now.

The summons could use an all-around retooling -- both these and the undead, to bring them more in line with the rest of these newfangled summon buffs and make them useful beyond the first 4 levels after acquisition. Not because I think EMD, Gate, and Dragon Knight 'SHOULDN'T' be the superior summons by virtue of their durations and/or their investment; but because I also feel that slotting 5 Gates so that I can have some semblance of later-game summon 'without' having EMD is somewhat silly.

Like. Really silly.

"A well buffed EMD/Dragon Knight can take nigh no damage in the Abyss, the Gate summon can literally singlehandedly whollop the Fire Giant King, and it's all I can do to keep a 9th tier summon alive in Brog Orcs" kind of silly.

That said, can we pls shrink this power gap so the holes in my soul may be sewn shut.

Keep in mind there are over a half dozen classifications of monsters spread across 9 ranks of spell , and they have already been heavily, heavily changed. Putting forth yet another overly complex idea across the summon I to ix spells is a good road to your idea biting the circular bin. It simply takes too much time for no payoff, manhours that are better spent elsewhere.

I wouldn't say the idea itself is "overly complicated." >_> Monsters have DC's to summon. That's the gist of it, while I may have made it sound more complicated. It may indeed be difficult to mesh with our multiple lines of summons, however, but I honestly had not thought down that line yet because it was only a suggestion.

Summons are just hard to balance due to the investment/potential damage/duration factors. Epic Summons are more forgivable because they require a feat. Round based summons are more forgiving because low duration means they can only do so much damage. The Summon 1-9 spells last all day though so there is easily an issue of them being able to do to much for the investment and duration. Alas currently their kinda useless, save for a few having various tricks i assume. I want to say the Celestial Minotaur was good for his level, given you could buff up his axe like crazy. I suppose i really have not tested them much after Mosh did his thing with them.

That said, at a quick glance, maybe adding the Familiar's script to them would suffice to give them a little more gusto? Maybe if it's not to hard, make it based on Conj focus instead of CL.

Giving conjurers better familiars would give them three really good summon options between EMD (two different conjuration options), Dragon Knight getting a good duration, and a super powered familiar. Probably going a bit overboard if you ask me, familiars are already pretty useful thanks to their DR and regeneration. Personally mine already tanks the Phane.

Leveling up a wizard without access to conjuration spells brings a couple of things to light:

Mordenkainen's sword could use some love. It appears to be completely unchanged from the Bioware standard. It has pretty good AB and okay damage for its level, but it has zero survivability. For being such a short duration summon, it should pack a lot more punch than it does. As it stands, it has the stats of a creature that you'd expect to last for turns/level and not rounds/level.

People without access to conjuration spells have zero summon options at IX spells. It seems a little overboard to have 3 summon spells available, but all of them retain the conjuration school. My suggestion would be to move Black Blade of Disaster to transmutation with the pretense that you are animating and empowering a great sword. This would give a non-undead option for 3 specialties (abjururs, transmuters, evokers), while locking out only one school (conjuration).

What I always thought Mord's Sword could be was like an animate equipment spell. It'd make more sense given that it's Transmutation(in nwn at least).

You'd cast the spell on a weapon or piece of armor in your inventory, and a sort invisible force construct a la Shelgarns Blade would be summoned wielding or wearing it. The base summon would be relatively weak besides its construct properties, but you could easily make up for it by animating a powerful weapon or armor that you'd otherwise junk or sell. You would basically decide what role you want the summon in by what you animate it with. Weapon = glass cannon. Armor = tank.

And really. What alchemist transmuter doesn't want to be followed around by an animated suit of armor?

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Giving conjurers better familiars would give them three really good summon options between EMD (two different conjuration options), Dragon Knight getting a good duration, and a super powered familiar. Probably going a bit overboard if you ask me, familiars are already pretty useful thanks to their DR and regeneration. Personally mine already tanks the Phane.

I'm not talking about buffing the familiars, though some of the less useful ones could be made more useful. Alas that Mosh never got around to doing his changes to Familiars that would have seen them get the love Animal Companions got.

Anyway, what i mean was that a lvl 30 sorc/wiz gets the following;
+15 AC
+6 Enchant
+6 Regen
+6 AB
+6 Saves
15/- DR

Now perhaps this script could be applied to the Summon 1-9 in addition to familiars. But instead of based on level, it would break the bonus into thirds for each SF feat.

SF Conj for example giving;
+5 AC
+2 Enchant
+2 Regen
+2 AB
+2 Saves
5/- DR

But its just a thought, might not be ideal, might not be an ideal option at all! I just hope our beautiful dev's don't run out of steam before they finish the other schools, id much rather they do Illusion and such then get stuck thinking about epic spells and summons.

Conjurations really dont need to become more powerful. Sorry.

Maverick00053 wrote:

Conjurations really dont need to become more powerful. Sorry.

It's not really about that though, is it? I mean, sure, in part were making the various SF more useful, but are we not also trying to make the undesirable and largely useless spells functional compared to others of their level?

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