AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Every DM to date has told me that RDD looses only 2 STR. Another player would have me believe to the contrary.

Conclusively, quick questions:
1. Is it only 2 lost?
2. If not, literally why? It's worse than every class in the game lmao.

http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=934722#p934722

They're asking because they think that link is incorrect, bruh. Everybody has access to the link. Some people have also told me that the class only loses 2 STR total, but I haven't built one to confirm or not.

Can anyone conclusively confirm and post screenshots?

Yeah. It'd seem to me like overkill if it's true. For multiple reasons -- both that it makes the class the only one in the game that actually gets actively 'worse' with more levels; and that it reduces the mechanical draw of the class to start with: Higher DC on a devcrit, or more AB compensation for a CON tank.

There's no real reason not to have +2 at 2, +2 at 4, and +2 at 10 tbh. Reward 10 level minimum investment with something besides the lore of it; since, chromatic 'or' metallic, there's no reason to gimp players for wanting to take an RP path that requires a 'LOT' of personal investment to pull off well -- to the extent that in my years of RPing I've only really known a few that were truly devoted to it from start to finish (and Jes is one of them)

I have two Dragon Disciples and those two loses 4 STR...

Wilfire is DD 10..

he have 18 + 2 race + 7 levels + Great Str 3 + 4 lvl 10 DD + 12 gear = 46

Which is +18 modfier.. the mod Storm and the others seen me rolling a while ago in game...

By the way im just explaining.. I am not against her! I still think some changes to class HAVE to be made!

Like some that were discussed sometime ago but I am not finding the thread on where it was discussed but Im sure its lost there somewhere! XD

No, RDD loses 4 str.

It gets +2 str on 2. level and +2 str on 4. level. (For power-building people often take only 4 levels, because increased str is the only thing they want.)
At level 10 it gets only +2 char.

(At least my character)

And why? Because for a long time it was extremely overpowered class on almost every server.
You used to get +8 str, +2 con, +2 int, +2 char, +4 AC, immunity to fire and paralysis for only 10 levels. And progression of 3/4 BAB with not-bad saving throws.

EDIT: As much as I like pure builds (30 levels of one class or 20 levels of prestige class), I'd love to see some bonus to level 20 RDD. But there is a balance issue, you already get D12 hp per level, scaling breath weapon and AC. Maybe reorganise the stats, that you'd get the original amount across 20 levels would be something, but we all know how it is with rebuilding character that took RDD, right? :mrgreen:

Keep in mind RDD requires an investment of two classes not one, and it's weak.

I think given the current climate and state of Amia, giving RDD more str (think giving +2 str at 14 rdd and +2 str at 19 rdd), or a non-stacking +1/2/3/4/5 at 11/13/15/17/19 natural armor bonus to free up a neck slot would help a lot.

Because you give up a LOT to be a RDD, and really don't get a lot. And it's a shame because it's pretty much the most flavorful and character defining PrC ig.

To be honest, the era of when RDD needed the nerf is sort of dated. The STR one specifically, I mean.

To remind: The RDD STR reduction was implemented back when Devcrit was still a straight up instagib.

This isn't the case anymore, so I think that giving the RDD their 'tiny' niche of having the ability to Devcrit a 'BIT' better than a WM (since it's no longer the end all be all ability) and also adding a single AB to them (since their AB progression is low anyway) can't be terrible.

I also wholeheartedly agree to buffing post 10 levels of the class. I've had the idea to suggest every 2 levels after 10 you get 5% more immunity to your element; ending you at 75%

Another cool idea I cooked up was to basically duplicate the buffs at levels 2, 4, and 7; but to make them soft stat-increases rather than hard-stat increases (Read -- force them onto a hide item, which RDD does anyway to add penalties). They won't stack with gear that way, but it has the same use as EMA in simplifying gearing.

#StraightOutaAvernus wrote:

This isn't the case anymore, so I think that giving the RDD their 'tiny' niche of having the ability to Devcrit a 'BIT' better than a WM (since it's no longer the end all be all ability) and also adding a single AB to them (since their AB progression is low anyway) can't be terrible.

I have to disagree with you here. RDDs mostly combine with fighting classes, thus having lower AB progression gives them atleast small penalty compared to stat increase. Even this small thing could be really strong in some builds.

#StraightOutaAvernus wrote:

I also wholeheartedly agree to buffing post 10 levels of the class. I've had the idea to suggest every 2 levels after 10 you get 5% more immunity to your element; ending you at 75%

I'd even agree with 100% immunity at level 20, since rings have been nerfed, people would have a reason to think about leveling prestige class to 20. So getting 10% immunity every 2 levels after 10 wouldn't be as game-breaking as giving them full BAB progression.

Oh -- don't get me wrong. I didn't say it 'couldn't' be strong in the right situation. I meant more that it will never be quite as good as, say, 22/7/1 Fighter/Bard/WM; in terms of class gain for class investment.

Not that RDD is mechanically 'meant' to compare to weapon master, but a prestige class should most definitely be just that.

Besides -- like I said. RDD actively gets worse as you get more levels. So it's not like we're teetering on the edge of making it OP. It's just 'too' top-heavy.

I think the main reason people don't want to keep it as it used to be is because of the possible power-building.

But I'm 100% for buffing it above 10th level, even tho it could be balance-wise hard.

Last edited by Strom on Mon, Sep 19 2016, 11:05 AM, edited 2 times in total.

So probably a left field idea... But... If you take 20 levels of RDD you're a hero and deserve the full str bonus, and probably some kind of widget that lets you cast a few spells.
Because at that point, all you have going for you is that you didn't half-ass anything. You whole-assed one thing.

RDD was designed to give a mage some more melee flavour, bard is in my opinion a happy accident. It seems like it was designed for sorcerer in 3.5.
Sadly in NwN they didn't find a way to give it any spell progression, so it... basically evolved into what it became in the early HoTU patches. The BUFF MAH FIGHTER class. At level 40, it's 10 levels of making that melee class stronk.
It's always been considered a waste for a mage, from a purely mechanical perspective. As, it adds flavour, but essentially makes you 'worse' mechanically - I'm sure people will argue miniscule technicalities. But, you know what I mean. Which.. is a shame, as it shouldn't take away from being a mage... rather enhance it.

The fact that we have people taking the whole... cleric/bard/RDD, fighter/bard/RDD, INSERTCLASS/Bard/RDD should tell you a lot about where it lives. On Amia it's the bolt on flavour class for people who want to play a half-dragon and get all that tasty evolution rp. Yes, I know.. "It's not really a half-dragon." But, let's be honest at 10th level... It pretty much is:-

Quote:

Dragon Apotheosis
At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half-dragon template. His breath weapon reaches full strength (as noted above), and he gains +4 to Strength and +2 to Charisma. His natural armor bonus increases to +4, and he acquires low-light vision, 60-foot darkvision, immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and immunity to the energy type used by his breath weapon.

^ Half-Dragon by any other name. And any commoner looking upon them would think so.

What i'd propose is giving someone who takes... 16 levels of RDD or more something like:-

Quote:

Dragon Apotheosis II:

Your character is truly dedicated to the Path of the Dragon Disciple, eschewing their former self to embrace their ancient bloodline in full. Your wings strengthen allowing you the ability to Wing Buffet as if casting Gust of Wind, with a DC of 10 + 1/2 Disciple Level + Str Modifier.

You gain + 2 additional strength and you develop large cresting horns which slowly erupt from your skull in the style of your particular ancestor. For every additional 2 levels your breath weapon recharges 1 second more quickly.

I'm sure this'll get torn to shreds, I'm not a balance guy at all. But... For those people wanting to whole-ass their DD levels, this sort of thing gives them a little cream for their strawberries. It's a High Hitpoint, High AC, Low Ab, Low DC choice otherwise. If paired with fighter, possibly a mediocre AB can be achieved at 16 levels or more. Also such a thing could even be earned through RP, if it's deemed for dedicated people.

Something I would love to see is choosing between fighting and casting type of RDD.

For example sorcerer taking RDD levels and geting his spells empowered somehow would be nice.

Yeah.. the problem with RDD is it's utter lack of spellcasting, other than it's bonus feats. I think of the two 'mage' PrC's Palemaster is better... and the Amia version of Palemaster, is pretty damn cool.

Again... from an RP perspective an RDD or Palemaster isn't a failed mage in any respect... But due to people roleplaying their lower DC's as 'weaker magic' some people miss the entire point. Palemaster does a better job of rewarding the mage with a smattering of spells and their caster levels stack on Amia. If the same could be done for RDD would that improve things?

Quote:

Caster LevelsPalemaster levels count toward caster level when casting spells of the Necromancy school, but only if they are arcane in origin. This includes damage, duration and casting level for the purposes of piercing spell resistance, though due to engine limitations, monk spell resistance is not affected.

Again, balance isn't my forte... but.. perhaps a bonus to evocation?

I'm playing devils advocate in this thread perhaps, but... Would it work? And, realistically.. do we have anyone with the time and skill to make such things happen? I'd imagine it's a big ask from the dev team.

Bertnard wrote:

I think the main reason people don't want to keep it as it used to be is because of the possible power-building.

But I'm 100% for buffing it above 10th level, even tho it could be balance-wise hard.

Even with the changes I suggested I wouldn't take it. I wouldn't even take it vanilla. You might get a dev crit save DC to be around 42 ish vanilla with the base dev crit un-nerfed RDD, which would mean my wizard would pass on anything but a 4 or lower unbuffed, but then I would just slot an item to +3 fort and im back to needing a 1 again.

The nerf is no longer needed.

Once upon a time there was talk about overhauling the class to make it harder to just take 4 and get the full STR buff (You don't get any STR at RDD 10, in case anyone still wasn't sure). I'd love to see epic DD mean something other than +1 or 2 AC and a higher save vs. breath weapon. I took 20 DD with Zelly and while she wasn't awful, she was...uh...not-amazing build-wise.

That said, the RP has always been amazing enough for me to make up for it. But that's just me and I'm obsessed with dragons.

Sune once made an amazing rework of RDD on paper.

Alas the issue is it is a lot of work to implent.

And on top of that it requires a hak.

So until we find someone who has the time and is willing to dump 200 hrs into a new Hak (which is what time the last ones consumed), this isn't looking like it will happen some time soon unfortunately.

I would quite actually learn a programming language to make the class not mechanically cancerous.

But honestly, removing part or all of the STR nerf is really all you need; and that can (I think) be done through a free request (since stats can be LETO adjusted).

Definitely make that possible, imho, for RDDs of 18+; and honestly, I would let people who RP the class well and provide screenshots of their apotheosis get half of it back regardless of level too; just say a better ritual gets better results!

As some folk have brought up the casterlevel point? I would remind everyone that I already asked about that a few months back. That's not looking like a possibility in the near future.

Another cool idea though: at a certain level, an RDD can choose a single non element breath weapon to have 5x per day. I would make it correspond to color, but only metallics get those sadly!

Sorry in advance if this comes off as rude, it's not meant to.

Putting the full STR bonus back would be silly, IMO. They already get some benefits that are pretty neat. 50% immunity to the element of your choosing more or less, which is now on par with epic immunity rings, that's built in for free. Don't need to bother with an equipment slot. Flying is kind of a big deal. Can escape or reposition nicely with that. You still get 4 STR, 2 INT, 2 CHA, 2 CON, 2 AC... The breath attack is the only thing might be a little weak? But still decent against low reflex things. It sounds to me like you're trying to get a buff for what a large majority of your faction is.

When stats are your only noteworthy class feature they ought to be higher.

As is a rdd isn't even the highest to-hit and isn't the highest in damage. In exchange they get stuff anyone can rp for and request without dual class investment (wings, breath) and that's about it. But they give up two class slots for it.

So basically they give up a ton and in exchange get numbers but the numbers arnt high enough to be close to worth it. As I said before even unnerfed rdd isn't too attractive in the current climate.

As for resistances, that's one mythal slot. Hardly worthy.

Keep in mind any color, metallic or chromatic, would be subject to this. It's not as much that I want a buff as it just doesn't fundamentally feel right to have a class that depreciates as it levels.

Right now, a 4 RDD build is undisputedly better than a 9 RDD (wing level), which is better than 10 RDD, which is in turn better than any level after that.

No other class in the game has this, and when you remember that master scout levels (by comparison):

> Can be paired with WM
> Covers tumble, discipline, and spot; ergo all the staple Amia skills in one class
> Can combine, in fact, with any two full BAB classes
> Still has +2 STR (epic bonus feat list)
> Has permanent freedom, AB boosts, movement speed increases outdoors, and the ability to partially replace its own UMD

Let's not forget that RDD's bonuses have a relatively low number of synergies: Bard/RDD/PM (devcrit or EDR), Bard/RDD/BG with devcrit, Bard/RDD/CoT with high CoT levels, and Bard/RDD/Barbarian. Almost all of these is most effective paired with a subrace that has inherent disadvantages in the way of skillpoints and other certain vulnerabilities; and most importantly, while its non-STR bonuses do pair decently with any of these, almost all of them can STILL be done better by using only 4 levels of the class -- which just feels fundamentally wrong somehow.

It's less that the class itself doesn't have any niche, it's just that there are other options that fill its niche in a way that's pretty much better all around; and where it does shine it starts to get duller the further you go past 4. Considering the class is something done pretty much solely as a roleplay decision as a result, I don't consider it to mean you have to shoot yourself in the foot.

I restate. This isn't about what I want for my faction members, contrary: I could be against a bunch of RDD/Paladins and STILL think this doesn't seem right -- what it amounts to is, like putting more than 1 or 2 monk levels on a shifter, or investing more PM on a caster, or going beyond 20 Bard, or going past 13 Shadowdancer, or hell even going for more than a certain number of levels in paladin? The act of doing more than a set level progression point immediately weakens the character, where more specifically RDD hits this before even reaching epic levels and failure to GO that many levels in a class is actively supposed to be discouraged. With the above matters applying only to specific combinations of a class also considered? There's simply not much excuse to make progression (especially epic progression) in any one class be an inherently terrible decision.

EDIT: Commie's right. Lucius Blackwater was a normal Human mage in Tarkuul but had draconic wings. Wyrmgrafting is a thing -- and there is lore for grafting breath glands, legs, and a tail too.

Strom wrote:

Again, balance isn't my forte... but.. perhaps a bonus to evocation?

Between Evocation and Conjuration, you would basically cover all of the dragon-y breath/elemental effects you could want in terms of spells(Mestil's Breath, Cone of Cold/Fire/Acid, Lightning Bolt, Cloudkill, Acid Fog, etc). In an ideal world, we would tailor each disciple kind to boost the schools most in line with their dragon type, but generally speaking, letting DD add to Evocation and Conjuration spells like Palemaster adds to Necromancy would be easily workable for any dragon type that wanted to go the caster route. Especially after all of our new changes.

Besides that, I'm of the opinion that the class is pretty fine as it is. It's hard to balance and unique in the fact that it's the only class that outright gives you improved ability scores. Historically, that's all it was used for, hence many classic builds only requiring 4 levels of it. With full levels, you get a breath weapon, AC, Str, Con, Int, Cha, Wings(teleportation basically), draconic immunities, 50% resistance to an element, and possibly one day the ability to be an effective damage mage if we can get the scripts in. Any dragon disciple that really wants to be a dragon disciple is not hurting for that extra strength. It's already generous for a Bard/Sorc level and 8 lore.

Dark Immolation wrote:

...I'm of the opinion that the class is pretty fine as it is. It's hard to balance and unique in the fact that it's the only class that outright gives you improved ability scores. Historically, that's all it was used for, hence many classic builds only requiring 4 levels of it. With full levels, you get a breath weapon, AC, Str, Con, Int, Cha, Wings(teleportation basically), draconic immunities, 50% resistance to an element, and possibly one day the ability to be an effective damage mage if we can get the scripts in. Any dragon disciple that really wants to be a dragon disciple is not hurting for that extra 2 strength. It's already generous for a Bard/Sorc level and 8 lore.

Again. Completely agree with you on the caster levels -- but the reality of it is that's not happening in the near future. Regardless of how little work it is, I have been directly told it wouldn't happen in any short span.

That in mind, sorcerer isn't going to synergize with it anytime soon. Might as well look at bard.

And with that considered, where comparing the gain from two classes of investment where four are empty...

Fighter/WM/Master Scout+ Tumble, Spot, Discipline
+ 2 STR/2 FREE epic feats
+ Permanent Freedom (pending removal from items but not MS)
+ 1x Critical Multiplier
+ +1-3 Critical Threat Range
+ 1-2 Weapon of Choice AB
+ Ki damage
+ 10% Movement Speed
+ 1 Outdoors AB
+ Potionmaking/Free Flaming Blade
- 2 (useful) Pre-epic Feats
- 2 Classes, 12 levels
- 15 skillpoints

To

Fighter/Bard/RDD 10+ Tumble, Discipline, UMD
+ 4 STR
+ 30 HP
+ 1 Fortsave
+ 7 skillpoints (maximum, assumes RDD 9 at 14th; non optimal)
+ 2 AC
+ 50% Element Immunity
- only 5 epic feats optimally
- 2 classes, 12 levels

Considering the former requires and demands no RP investment at the risk of being DM stripped if not; is this an equal trade, and how?

Removing the bard/wiz/sorc requirement from the class would help tremendously too.

Wizards can't be RDD's afaik, it's only Bard/Sorc because of innate powers.

Yeah I got it confused with AA's requirements.

In p&p it's not as big of a deal as you arn't stuck with 3 classes only. But here? You lose a lot.

Commie wrote:

Removing the bard/wiz/sorc requirement from the class would help tremendously too.

So the only requirement for the class would become 8 Lore?

Yeah. That's never happening. It's an arcane/magical flavored class that gets whored out for melee builds. The answer isn't the make it even easier to be used in melee builds, but to make it worthy and worthwhile of its original theme and intent. If that has to wait for a hak, then it just has to wait for a hak.

If it's supposed to be an arcane class then it would supplement casting. It doesn't in NWN and in 3.5 it hardly does at all.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClass ... sciple.htm

Quote:

Bonus Spells

Dragon disciples gain bonus spells as they gain levels in this prestige class, as if from having a high ability score, as given on Table: The Dragon Disciple. A bonus spell can be added to any level of spells the disciple already has the ability to cast.

It's a melee class that happens to require spell casting. Likely for buffs. If it was made for casting it would get actual caster progression.

Uhhh

Here's where we split ways I'm afraid Commie.

I'm not even asking for RDD to have the class restrictions removed. Realistically, not having a tumbledump is suicide so the worst loss of bard is literally just being easily dispelled (because you are GUARANTEED to have a positive CHA score by endgame), and being confined to NE NG CE CG CN by the one step rule (without a request to be made lawful).

I'm quite actually just asking to restore just 2 of the STR. That's it.

1 AB
1 Damage
1 Devcrit DC (if you even have it, which is 5 feats of investment and only ever trivial to get on a 22/7/1 WM)

That's so much for six levels of a class that literally changes your race to add?

I'm not saying to buff it through the roof unless we go into a discussion on post epic. I'm literally just proposing that there be an actual, tangible, honest answer besides "RP" to go 6 more levels into a class you can stop at 4 in and be better at everything.

Based on what im seeing about the HAK bs though, if you're going to make a minor change you might as well go through and change everything, because you're looking at 200 some odd hours and, iirc, forcing everyone to DL more filez, so you might as well just overhaul it.

+2 STR is doable via a DM accessible command, and can therefore be handled on a case to case basis just like color is.

Citation:
Go offline
Hit "~"
Enter "DebugMode 1"
Type "ModSTR 2"

I think that will trip whatever detection the server hopefully uses to enforce 'legal' characters.

No, because then it would also keep me from playing Stormwind due to her race being "Dragon"

The extent of that enforcement is about as far as the first time EVEN ONE DM goes "nah this is fine" and marks it a false flag -- which is all I needed before going back IG

Ok then, push for +2 str.

I would prefer if you stopped comparing RDD to a WM, #StraightOutaAvernus.

In your list of positive things about that you added Ki-Damage which I have never seen in action, both by High level WM's or Lower level WM's and let's not forget the Feat requirement which asks you to take 2 Feats that are absolutely useless for most people (Spring Attack + Whirlwind).

And as far as I know Master Scouts have to pay a slight amount for the Weapon essences which makes them -not- free...and besides that, not every WM is a MS, In fact, I only know one that has that build.

Another thing is that a RDD is -not- a full melee class, people don't seem to understand that a decent mix of Sorc / RDD / Rogue can be quite effective due to Tensers, if you grab RDD just to get the 4 (8) STR to help another class outside of Sorc then that's a bummer. Also you can Fly which is a -huge- thing, and don't try to claim that it isn't.

I've managed to grab Dev Crit by the time my guy reached level 21 (10 RDD, 1 Bard, 11 Fighter) and it worked well enough against Fire Giants, who can cause WM's a headache if they are level 21 and lack decent gear/won't reach their full strength until 30.

Not trying to sound rude or anything, I just don't think returning those 4 STR is a good idea as there are other ways that could improve RDD in epic levels.

It's not even all four STR though.
It's not really even improving.
The WM MS comparison isn't assuming all of them do it, it's saying WMs with +2 STR and permafreedom CAN exist -- for virtually the same investment.
I'm not really even discussing PvM and leveling <_<

I'm just saying that a uniform, distributed, non topheavy layout of the class' big bonus that puts it at the start, halfway, and at the end evenly should be logical. Is that so hard to communicate?

Also -- again. You don't need RDD for wings. Lucius Blackwater was a human. Wizard. Halruaan I think, specifically.

He RPly got wings without being any special race or having any special class.

I really have to agree with t o u c h e d on this whole thing, your Faction would be the one that profits the most of this and you have stated yourself that it's not about PVM or Leveling, so it must be about PvP for you which you are overly fond of as I know, and it just strikes me as odd that you pick this time to ask for a buff for this specific class.

And you claim that RDD get no bonus at the end? what about the 50% Immunity to an element? the immunity to paralysis (which will be a big thing once perma freedom is gone) ? or hell, 2 Charisma which should be good for you too as a Favored Soul?

You get a reward at the beginning, middle and end... you claim that you don't get something at the end, in that case I can't help but think that you are
delusional, sorry if that's harsh but you -clearly- get something and it's simply not enough for you.

I have no RDD levels?
What are you talking about. I don't benefit directly from this worth shit.

Plus, Bendir has literally 4 passively omnipresent metallic RDDs right now.

You? I never claimed that you did directly, but plenty of people in your faction would.

Unless you refer to the middle part of my last post, in that case I was just assuming that you have RDD, but that doesn't change the first part at all.

The Metallic don't go around killing people and taking over Towns, they are mostly sitting in the Dale and enjoying the RP.

Let me grab an equally broad brush: What does 'who does this benefit' have anything to do with discussions of balance -- and when has claiming that historically done anything for the people in question?

Why does everything in this subforum/thread, or hell, any thread; have to turn into someone having favoritism toward someone or something?

Can discussions 'not' just operate on the face value of an issue? Because I am content to drop this (and hell I'd honestly be content just to see there being less gain from going 4, if everyone is honestly going to be so up-tight about me asking that 10 be a straight upgrade), but Amia's unjustified level of bitterness is quite candidly a problem that stretches beyond this.

To restate: RDD level 4 is > RDD level 7, which is > RDD level 9, which is > RDD level 10; and that is, in turn, > RDD levels 11+.

That's the biggest crux of the issue -- and yes, I'm discussing non PvM; with reason: A wise man once told said that "decisions which people make for RP should not be used as a basis of balance."

I can make a Charisma based Barbarian that functions in PvM; but that doesn't mean I haven't made a choice that could be improved upon, and while it could be conductive to role-play in the right situations, I'd feel a bit cheated when I struggle where other things clean-cut.

We're talking face value here dude. Don't get so impassioned about it.

I have made my statement clear here, I don't think that reverting the 4 STR would be the way to go as you get plenty of things by taking RDD to 10.

Yes, perhaps there might be something added to a high level RDD, but not the STR, that's just asking for trouble in the end.

#StraightOutaAvernus wrote:

Every DM to date has told me that RDD looses only 2 STR. Another player would have me believe to the contrary.

Conclusively, quick questions:
1. Is it only 2 lost?
2. If not, literally why? It's worse than every class in the game lmao.

4 STR

not changing.

Did not read this thread, sorry. STR is not coming back except as something that would return as an epicl evel RDD. Not pre epic.

What about +2 STR at DD level 4 and the last +2 STR at 10? That pushes a reason to 10 levels. Otherwise, DD gets a lot, regardless of what some might think... For 10 levels, 8 lore and taking bard... it's pretty strong. Compared to a WM, they have far superior saves for one, can fly, as stated, and all those abilities, and extra AC?.... Oh, and as for being dispelled... I know many take a genasi subrace and 6 Cha to circumvent that, so... something to consider. The issue isn't about "should they have more", it's more about, "How badly can what they have now be abused?". I can think of a few builds that would abuse it, with more STR? Even worse.

This is not a personal attack on anyone, faction or anything. I've made enough characters, some DD, to know that adding back the STR is a bad idea, as Tormak already stated.

That Guy has my thoughts exactly, actually.

As I said in my last post: if we aren't increasing it, is it at least possible to change the levels you GET the STR?

It still won't fix that this news has me considering RDD a bit more underwhelming than I thought, but the first 4 levels are 'too' top heavy.

Investing in 4 levels of a class people should be RPing and then not doing it for all the benefit is scummy -- if we aren't going 6, at least go 2 at 4 and 2 at 10.

This makes people actively need to invest in the class to get its bigger boons.

That said, regarding epic RDDs -- you said it may be considered for them, Tormak? I still think post 10 needs love if it won't get any before that.

I know its probably a scripting limited, hak limited thing and thus cannot happen, but...ignoring like random stat changes and stuff, I think it would be kind of neat to maybe throw a couple of things into the game for abilities like monks, barbs, bards and (I think) Blackguards get, NPC given things based off level that add some flavor things for RDDs maybe but aren't like...gamebreakers I think was the colorful term someone else used.

DolphinRacer wrote:

NPC given things based off level that add some flavor things for RDDs maybe but aren't like...gamebreakers I think was the colorful term someone else used.

That would be neat. I don't even entirely agree with "anti-nerf full str thing" (Sorry Stormy ;P), I think it's meh, but okay that it's restricted. However, without something else though the class investment, especially going past 10 feels a tad lackluster tbh. There is no real payoff for going epic, other than RP, you end up with builds that are sub-par for PVP, and PVM.

Karradon wrote:

Also you can Fly which is a -huge- thing, and don't try to claim that it isn't.

I don't know why people are throwing in flight as a major thing. It's cool but it's not like it's limited to the RDD class and it's a total ribbon feat. It's a shiny doohickey that allows for neat tricks. It has no other uses. The only mystique about it is the potential to "break" certain server rules with it. However if you are a responsible player, it's just a fun toy. Like thousand faces, except with less use. I'm not shitting on it, I love it, but I'm being realistic about it.

Karradon wrote:

Another thing is that a RDD is -not- a full melee class, people don't seem to understand that a decent mix of Sorc / RDD / Rogue can be quite effective due to Tensers, if you grab RDD just to get the 4 (8) STR to help another class outside of Sorc then that's a bummer.

Should I have to align the sun and moon and all the planets of the solar system to obtain a "effective" build? When other prestige classes are more flexible, more forgiving and have better benefits? Without nearly the same investment.

Karradon wrote:

The Metallic don't go around killing people and taking over Towns, they are mostly sitting in the Dale and enjoying the RP.

And the chromatic are currently enjoying the RP of actually being chromatic and evil and ambitious? big deal. What other people do is their prerogative and has no bearing in the discussion about perceived lopsided balancing. Some people enjoy active RP. Some people like tea parties. I like both, want to fight and drink tea? I'll put the kettle on, while we take our corners.

Honestly though, the argument about what is, and what is not RP is caustic, and frankly ridiculous.

Karradon wrote:

The Metallic don't go around killing people and taking over Towns, they are mostly sitting in the Dale and enjoying the RP.

As one of these Dale metallic DD's mentioned, I'd rather not bring up current RP in this balance discussion. Saying that the chromatic folks only like to go around and kill people and take over towns is just as offensive as saying all the metallics do is sit around the Dale. Both are untrue, as I've had stellar interactions with the chromatics (and other people!) outside of the Dale. Frequently.

Current RP and factions and characters should not be taken into account when discussing balance. If RDD needs any boost, then it needs a boost regardless of who is currently playing. Balance changes should never be catered to anyone, but to the class in question because it is warranted on its own. Why? Because people come and go. Factions come and go. Historically, DD's in particular come and go in waves.

Probably because the class sucks horribly. And I say that as an avid fan of the class, with multiple PCs who've gone beyond 10 DD.

I agree with Tormak in this, and I hope that one day someone can find the time and ability to overhaul the class in full. I definitely support moving the STR gain to +2 at DD 2 and +2 at DD 10, with some extra perks for those who want to shoot themselves in the foot (power-wise) for the sake of RP beyond 10 DD.

Epic Dragon Disciple:

Level 12: +1 AC
Level 14: +2 STR
Level 16: +1 AC
Level 18: +2 STR
Level 20: 100% Element Resistence

In addition to everything the Epic levels grant.

Or something on these lines....

With something on the likes of the above being done, it would cancel all the Nerf the class gets on its first 10 levels and make it way more doable to play its Epic levels.

I know the Epic levels already gets AC and Epic feats and it opens doors for some Requests, but still the way it is now, the price of getting 10 levels for it is very high. and I know it would require some HAK change.

If I recall right.. it was more or less those changes that were discussed on the old thread that was made that I still did not found!

So you're saying they should get:

8 STR in total.

6 AC in total?

In addition to 2 Con, INT, and CHA.

And 100% resistance...

Sure, it's 20 levels, but, no prestige class gets anything like that. that's +4 AB (Most WM get +3 or +4 from 16 or 19 levels, and most are empty levels, meaning they get nothing else after level 7), and +6 AC... I can't see how that is balanced at all. Plus 20 free skill points, and 30 hit points. I can see maybe +2 str at DD level 2 or even 4, and another +2 at 10, and another +2 at 20, but... no more AC, that's just too much, and +8 total to STR is op, in my opinion.

Well, if SD can utilize summon, it can IK with drain and is very hard to kill. RDD is still usually crippled in BAB or in simply taking class "just to be RDD".

Regarding RDD

Who is online