AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Druids: Even treehuggers need a bit of love sometimes.

I agree with Amarice on this one, they are well balanced out and you need to be lvl 25 anyway to get the dire shapes so it is not like they are easily attainable. I tested them with my druid too and they are not crazy OP they are good for the lvl or druid you need to be to get them and by far no where near on par with some PC builds. You can't cast while in wildshape, so you can strip them of some buffs with a good mord's, also the ab and AC of them while it is decent won't hold up against some high ab builds even with the sneaks they get. Also Mav put a lot of time and effort in to this and works his ass off to try and make the game better for everyone not just a select player base. A little less whining about changes made and a bit more thanks would be better suited.

Oh! I was under the impression the animal shapes work just like the shifter ones, but in that case I can see how the things not merged might hinder as well as being unable to use flame weapon hence the need for the 10d6 sneak attack. And I totally appreciate Mav's work Dicey! Merely just questioning, it does clear up the decisions made so at least others would know. Thanks for the responses.

Yeah.

These are druid only and only merge the armor slot since they are animals. At least that is the mentality behind it.

The forms themselves can only be buffed with one slot of gear, so limited already, and any buffs on it can be dispelled.

If someone had epic skill hide/ms, the pre epic ones, all the spell buffs, and a good hide/ms armor they might tip 60-70s skill. Which is pretty laughable for any dedicated spotter. As everyone else has mentioned they do lack epic dodge which is what makes rogue and sd builds so deadly. It is one of if not the most powerful feat in game atm.

Last edited by Commie on Tue, Nov 29 2016, 2:20 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Testing done, fully buffed this is where I sit. Attacks were made against a target dummy.

Bear; 1042/842 hp, 52 ac, 36 to hit on doll, 39 to hit rolled + Defensive awareness II + Toughness

Cat; 722/662 hp, 54 ac, 40 to hit on doll, 44 to hit rolled + Sneak Attack (10d6) + HIPS + Evasion + Uncanny Dodge 1

Wolf; 922/782 hp, 53 ac, 40 to hit on doll, 45 to hit rolled + Howl + Blind Fight

Boar; 722/662 hp, 49 ac, 38 to hit on doll, 42 to hit rolled + Epic Weapon Spec

Badger; 722/762, 54 ac, 42 to hit on doll, 51 (?!) to hit rolled + Ferocity + Evasion + Uncanny Dodge 1

Meanwhile

Fire; 742/692 hp, 54 ac, 35 to hit on doll, 43 to hit rolled + Con drain on hit + fireball + crit immunity

Water; 617/572 hp, 57 ac, 35 to hit on doll, 43 to hit rolled + Regen + Vamp regen + acid fog + cure spells + crit immunity

Earf; 872/812 hp, 47 ac, 35 to hit on doll, 42 to hit rolled + Like 30 dr + stoneskin + stonehold + grease + crit immunity

Air; 552/512 hp, 60 ac, 33 to hit on doll, 39 to hit rolled + aoe fort save vs knockdown and damage + call lightning + crit immunity + 9d6 sneak iirc

I don't know the special abilities of the animal forms. Feel free to copy/paste the list and fill it in.

HP should be included.

edit; ill go test it.

edited to include hp

It is worth noting that the aura of vitality doesn't last long at all. That is about -60 HP from each except the bear. The bear has a permanent +12 on its hide.

Maverick00053 wrote:

It is worth noting that the aura of vitality doesn't last long at all. That is about -60 HP from each except the bear. The bear has a permanent +12 on its hide.

8 or 9 minutes extended.

I just prep like 6 of them and keep it goin. Regen too.

Don't have a druid to test them but no matter what it will be very hard to balance for some very simple reasons.

You have to factor in that they get the forms with no feat investment or anything its just a side effect on the levels that most druids would be taking a lot of to increase spells/spell power on top of all the wisdom investment, then compared to what the classes main focus is AKA spells and since you cant cast spells in form you would be very hard-pressed to make the form so good that you would use it over spells ((and since gear does not merge messing up spell slots))

Another factor that I'm not 100% sure on so someone would need to test but with all the spell changes and druids being spell focused.... the elemental forms would get even more perks with the unlimited spell spamming because the spell focus...ect I assume moves over making it better.

That leaves you with it feeling so lack luster but to make it seem like a go to option would mean it has to be so powerful that you would pick it over the main focus of the class...So the way I have to try and look at it, assuming you had limited/zero spells remaining and your still in combat comparing yourself to a caster cleric or wizard/sorc who is also low/out of spells as a druid would you change into one of the wild shape forms over not? if you say yes then the form is still serving a use.

corypx wrote:

Don't have a druid to test them but no matter what it will be very hard to balance for some very simple reasons.

You have to factor in that they get the forms with no feat investment or anything its just a side effect on the levels that most druids would be taking a lot of to increase spells/spell power on top of all the wisdom investment, then compared to what the classes main focus is AKA spells and since you cant cast spells in form you would be very hard-pressed to make the form so good that you would use it over spells ((and since gear does not merge messing up spell slots))

Another factor that I'm not 100% sure on so someone would need to test but with all the spell changes and druids being spell focused.... the elemental forms would get even more perks with the unlimited spell spamming because the spell focus...ect I assume moves over making it better.

That leaves you with it feeling so lack luster but to make it seem like a go to option would mean it has to be so powerful that you would pick it over the main focus of the class...So the way I have to try and look at it, assuming you had limited/zero spells remaining and your still in combat comparing yourself to a caster cleric or wizard/sorc who is also low/out of spells as a druid would you change into one of the wild shape forms over not? if you say yes then the form is still serving a use.

giving the base forms a bit more ac and giving each one some kind of gimmick (like how the cat has hips) would help. i don't really consider blind fight or evasion 'features' as you should be getting these on your own anyway.

allowing more gear (like weapon/helm/chest/shield a la dragon shape) would allow for a bit more itemization, and just doing that to animal forms (but not doing that to elemental forms) would pretty much fix it.

Test the forms in battle and pve for a bit then get back to me.

They do each function very differently. Their claws are also quite varied.

Solvaras wrote:

Lvl 12 druid here. The cougar form is showing a beetle portrait.

For me, at least, this is still happening.

Yeah. Illl get it fixed.

Hehe, Dicey, again, I like the dev work, but invested time does not equal quality. In this case it does seem to though.

Without merging or Flame Weapon, suddenly they seem balaced well enough. Only sad thing is that the cat is almost as good at fighting as Mezwar, only lacking the Assassins two saves and Epic Dodge, but having HiPS for it. And more hp. But that's my own fault, so...

robbi320, good dev work doesn't fall from trees. It does take a lot of times. So I would appreciate it if you would refrain from making comments like that to our devs who spent hours upon hours on improving an often not easy to work with system. An entirely useless piece of nwn's old engine was taken and reworked to make it actually usable. This will require fine tuning, testing, readjustments. No it won't immediately be perfect upon release. We don't have a large testing environment with hundreds of testers we can employ for this. Comments like this are what wears over time down our personnel. Its why we loose good team members, its why stuff disappears into development hell. This does not mean all things done are untouchable by criticism. We do feedback threads for this very reason. But this DOESN'T mean you get to shit over the time they invest in their work.

It wasn't meant like that, but I can understand how it can be understood that way. I do really appreciate the dev's work, and know I probably couldn't manage most of what was done on the server.

I'm sorry for that comment.

First of all, changes are cool, thanks for the work! Just providing feedback on the mid-tier ones as most people will skip straight over them.

Mid tier Panther (level 12-24) is still showing a beetle portrait.

Mid tier Badger is overperforming (high AC/AB, decent damage still).
Mid tier Boar is underperforming due to low AC, despite good damage.
Mid Tear Bear is underperforming due to low AC.
Tested on 16 Druid. No gear. Tumble = 0 BAB = 12 Weapon Fineese (when appropriate) = Yes. Toughness = Yes
AB likely includes +2 for flanking. Was attacking a door. I may miss some bonus feats on shapes due to having them already.
Bear - 20AC. +19 to hit. 358/288HP. Claw 1d8. Toughness?
Panther - 23AC. +21 to hit. 258/208HP. 1d8 claw. 3d6 Sneak
Wolf - 23AC. +22 to hit. 316/256Hp. 1d8 claw. Howl - fear AOE.
Boar - 18AC. +21 to hit. 258/208HP. 1d12 claw. Weapon Spec (+1 Damage)
Badger - 27AC. +27 to hit. 258/208Hp. 1d8 claw. Ferocity (+3 STR/DEX)

Epic range - Ill likely miss a few bonus feats/skills or other hidden hide items.

Druid = 26. BAB = 21. Armor Skin = Yes. Toughness = Yes. Tumble = 30 (+6AC). Blindsight = Yes. Evasion = Yes
Values shown are - No gear worn. No buffs. ---- Add +11 to AB and +16AC for Gear + Self buffs*.
------------------------------------------------------*Stats assuming +5AC chest. +12DEX/STR mod. +5 Barkskin. +5 Blood frenzy.
To hit is combat log values, not sheet. AC/HP are sheet values.

Bear - 38AC. +33 to hit. 1044/844HP. 2d6 claw. 10/- slash/bludge/pierce. +12CON, 40 Discipline on hide. Defensive Awareness (2).
Panther - 40AC. +37 to hit. 544/484HP. 2d6 claw. HIPS. 10d6 Sneak attack. 25 hide/MS on hide.
Wolf - 39AC. +39AB to hit. 744/604HP. 2d6 claws. Howl, fear. 30 discipline, 15 listen/spot on hide.
Boar - 35AC. +36AB to hit. 544/484HP. 3d10 claws. Epic weapon spec. 20 Discpline on hide.
Badger - 40AC. +44AB to hit. 544/484HP. 2d6 claws. 15 Discipline, 20 listen/spot on hide. Ferocity (+3DEX/STR)

The AC is generally finely spread, but could potentially use a bump in general by 2-3 AC across the board, but is otherwise fine.

The bears AB is probably to low, as it still has mediocre damage anyway (which is fine, cause your a tank!)

The Panther is likely a little too strong. It still has that bug which you already know about (Ama sent you a notice about it), however its 10d6 Sneak is probably a little too high comparatively to the others and its Boar counterpart. Its additional Hide is unneeded due to Druid buffs already buffing hide. With 32 points into hide/ms I have 70 hide/ms in Panther form. Thats 38 your getting without any points in it (25 + 13 dex mod). You can also gain +10 hide from Camouflage. +10 hide Mass camouflage. +4 Hide/ms One with the land. +6 from additional Dex. Giving you 68 hide, 48 move silent. Or with points, 100 hide/80 move silent.

The Wolf is good. It has good all around stats, making it quite the generalist. Could probably do with Epic weapon spec or a base claw damage increase to make it stand out.

The Boar seems bad on paper, but its damage is really nice. Could potentially use 4 extra DEX to bump it up a bit.

The Badger is once again way overperforming with its AB being substantially higher. Its damage is only slightly behind the others (Bear/Wolf) due to lower STR, but its ability to hit gives it MUCH higher DPS on average. Buffed I have 55AB at 2d6 (claw damage) + 5 (claw enhancement) + 10 STR mod + 2 Blood frenzy = 2d6+17 damage on hit.

Cool. Thanks for the feed back.

The AB/AC for the badger is a tad bit too much I agree and the bear, while godly tanky, could use a bit more damage/ab.

the 1-11 tier lynx has a really hard time fitting through doors for some reason.

The skin must have a weird hitbox for some reason. It is possible though?

Possible to get through a door, but you have to wiggle a lot. It can be rather fatal in a fight.

Some of the cats and wolves have artifically bigger hitboxes due to Bioware labelling them as Large size to give them Knockdown bonuses like they have in PnP.

I have no hard numbers and am by no means a master at this game... I will say as a level 15 Druid after self buffing I prefer the Badger because I don't die as fast as the Bear. (This is solo fighting desert creatures outside Nesek and then the snakes and stuff in the transition over from there.) The bear while has a lot of HP ends up at something really low like 30 AC for me, the badger ends up with 39 and Ferocity gives it 41 AC. (Keep in mind I may not be putting on the right buffs or have really bad gear or something.) But the badger is my favorite.

I have no idea if this is correct, but it seemed as though the low tier boar was the only form with some kind of damage resistance. This made it the only form I could reliably play through low tier, fighting goblins, orcs, skah coast spiders, trogs, rising sun cultists. I'll admit, in the last level of low tier, it was way easier to hide and let my summon and companion fight shekats.

After hitting level 12, I've tried out the badger and Panther (cougar?) on shekats, the badger has way better ab and ac, but the cat was more than capable with my summons of doing significant damage to them. I went from being hit a lot and relying on refreshing my stoneskin, to no longer worrying, my stoneskin never failed.

Side note: I switched from the boar companion to the badger companion at level 12 based on a recommendation. I regretted it immediately. While it was harder to hit, it does not seem to have an enchantable creature weapon like the boar did, so it does tremendously less damage.

So I tried them in Khem, level 12. Panther got hit a lot, badger only hit a bit. Enough to survive as a badger.

CratzBlade113 wrote:

Solvaras wrote:

Lvl 12 druid here. The cougar form is showing a beetle portrait.

For me, at least, this is still happening.

Not a biggie but it's still a beetle portrait.

Love these by the way! Thanks for the dev work!

Druids: Even treehuggers need a bit of love sometimes.

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