AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

To me, screenshots are still OOC.

I can explain why too. A character IC has no means to make a "screenshot" (ok one can argue if a character is able to make something like a magical photograph, but that would take a huge amount of consideration like PnP permission, what such a picture can entail, who has the ability to do such, etc etc). All he/she can do is re-tell a story. To do so IC, they do not need proof. Why would they. They spread their opinion about an event in a manner of what their character witnessed and wants to tell people about. This doesn't need proof. A character can make spread word about something that is 100% true, or 100% false. Or something in between.

Now, and here comes the critical difference, a screenshot (proof) is needed if a 'player' wants the DM to act on a situation. (NPC witnessed 'this') In that context (imho) the screen is still an OOC thing though because the player can report to the DM what the NPC saw but the character cannot and does not need to report what the NPC saw. Alas the chain is PC reports what PC saw - Player reports OOC what NPC saw - DM report IC what NPC saw/did/report.

My two cents and why my given (personal) opinion was as it was.

Since I've never had a summon reskin, would it be possible to have one summon (for example Epic Mummy Dust) be one of two different summons, depending on occasion?

You mean reskin EMD to (for example) a bear and use the same bear (name and skin and bio etc) on your lvl 9 summon?

No. I mean reskin EMD to a bear, and use an item on it to have it be a lion instead.

One spell, two appearances.

No, that does not work.

Not by any "legal" methods we have atm at least.

Ok, thanks.

How do we se the rp finder?

Shadowfiend wrote:

How do we se the rp finder?

viewtopic.php?p=1375189#p1375189

Once it's on your radial menu, just follow the menu UI.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

To me, screenshots are still OOC.

I can explain why too. A character IC has no means to make a "screenshot" (ok one can argue if a character is able to make something like a magical photograph, but that would take a huge amount of consideration like PnP permission, what such a picture can entail, who has the ability to do such, etc etc). All he/she can do is re-tell a story. To do so IC, they do not need proof. Why would they. They spread their opinion about an event in a manner of what their character witnessed and wants to tell people about. This doesn't need proof. A character can make spread word about something that is 100% true, or 100% false. Or something in between.

Now, and here comes the critical difference, a screenshot (proof) is needed if a 'player' wants the DM to act on a situation. (NPC witnessed 'this') In that context (imho) the screen is still an OOC thing though because the player can report to the DM what the NPC saw but the character cannot and does not need to report what the NPC saw. Alas the chain is PC reports what PC saw - Player reports OOC what NPC saw - DM report IC what NPC saw/did/report.

My two cents and why my given (personal) opinion was as it was.

This screenshot was in view of NPCs that already have their own picture of what happened, ergo a PC does not need to report it. It already occurred. In view of NPCs. Is that screenshot being used to determine the responses of Wharftown people? If so, good. If not, why not?

If screenshots are OOC, can you respond to my previous post on why screenshots have been treated as IC for the entire recent history of amia, along with many other examples of OOC context being used to describe an IC event, and tell me why this situation is being treated differently and singled out, to the point where the player is being attacked and insulted on the forums?

Do the DMs intend to do anything about this, given it occurred repeatedly, after a public DM warning was given, by players who have had warnings for forum conduct before?

Every time I try to make leather armor from hide I do not receive the item despite having space to receive it...

Why is this?

Not tongue in cheek: How do I become a DM?

Send an application to the team....

Tongue in cheek: Does this remind you of anything?
Forums are not for nom.

TormakSaber wrote:

If screenshots are OOC, can you respond to my previous post on why screenshots have been treated as IC for the entire recent history of amia, along with many other examples of OOC context being used to describe an IC event, and tell me why this situation is being treated differently and singled out, to the point where the player is being attacked and insulted on the forums?

Do the DMs intend to do anything about this, given it occurred repeatedly, after a public DM warning was given, by players who have had warnings for forum conduct before?

People have been asked to not use screenshots ic before in reports etc, same with full log posts including timestamps etc in reports.

This was further more not singled out as the DMteam never ruled he has to remove it. Lutra even told him he can leave them. Commie asked for my personal preference and I gave him that and he changed it on his own accord.

Offenses are still reviewed by the DM team as always, a lot have been and still are away between the holidays though. That said I highly recommend you review your own forum conduct lately as critical as those of others.

OpenTheRift wrote:

Not tongue in cheek: How do I become a DM?

You either are approached by the team or you write an application.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

If screenshots are OOC, can you respond to my previous post on why screenshots have been treated as IC for the entire recent history of amia, along with many other examples of OOC context being used to describe an IC event, and tell me why this situation is being treated differently and singled out, to the point where the player is being attacked and insulted on the forums?

Do the DMs intend to do anything about this, given it occurred repeatedly, after a public DM warning was given, by players who have had warnings for forum conduct before?

People have been asked to not use screenshots ic before in reports etc, same with full log posts including timestamps etc in reports.

This was further more not singled out as the DMteam never ruled he has to remove it. Lutra even told him he can leave them. Commie asked for my personal preference and I gave him that and he changed it on his own accord.

Offenses are still reviewed by the DM team as always, a lot have been and still are away between the holidays though. That said I highly recommend you review your own forum conduct lately as critical as those of others.

This incident was absolutely singled out as my post with many examples showed. Not to mention the insults and attacks made on the player. The playerbase chose to make a fuss about this single specific event despite it being identical to many other examples.

I would like a PM with specific examples of my incorrect forum conduct so that I can correct it.

Relax all of you :oops:

! It's just the general questions thread. My turn for random question now!

Genuinely asking; not trying to be catty or anything: Amarice, if a fully qualified log file or screenshot or even both aren't admissible evidence - what is?

What do you send along with reports, if needed? Obviously I'm biased since I have a rather robust way to keep track of all of my activities and while they could be theoretically be authored, so can the verbiage of the report itself, or the perspective and bias of the DM.

My concern and reasoning for questioning is as follows: if report is found to be doctored (if you read server logs and they mismatch), I'd expect that person to get a much harsher punishment (i.e. permaban) so there's not much incentive to do this in the first place? I express concern, because in the past, providing these logs have helped me in the past from mob mud flinging justice, by revealing the entire story, thus allowing actual justice.

I'm literally brainstorming concepts right now, so sorry for all the questions.

I'm not sure if this has changed, since a lot of requests -seem- to not have consistent standards:
If I request something, like a custom race, do I get the things for free? Fey'ri: Wings, Alter Self, etc. Or, with a non-subrace system helped class: LibrisMortis's recent Changeling (?) request, will he get his three (?) Alter Selfs for free, or for 5 DCs each?

No, you pay the usual DC price for these.

Ok. Might be confusing it with Warlock.

robbi320 wrote:

Ok. Might be confusing it with Warlock.

keep in mind some special things don't cost dc's. my faun for example was 0 dc's because legs are free. meanwhile my gnoll only required me to pay for the tail.

RaveN,

I know your question is directed at Amarice but I'd like to weigh in on the topic. Submitting screenshots for any reports provides the person doing them a level of omnipotence that they would not otherwise have. All actions, no matter how trivial, would be proven. While cops and prosecuting attorneys would love to have that in the real world ("Your honor, I would like to submit Exhibit A to the jury, a log showing where Anders Andersen attacked Bjorn Bjornsen") it just isn't proper. If you are submitting a report you should only be able to document what your character experienced personally and hope that the evidence you provide can make charges stick. The other thing is that, like real life, memories get clouded over time. You shouldn't even use screenshots as an aid to write your report; you remember what you remember and if that isn't enough to convict that's too bad for you, better luck next time.

Does the Blackguard casting of Eagles Splendor stack with potions like their casting of Bulls Strength does?

ucfgoose wrote:

RaveN,

I know your question is directed at Amarice but I'd like to weigh in on the topic. Submitting screenshots for any reports provides the person doing them a level of omnipotence that they would not otherwise have. All actions, no matter how trivial, would be proven. While cops and prosecuting attorneys would love to have that in the real world ("Your honor, I would like to submit Exhibit A to the jury, a log showing where Anders Andersen attacked Bjorn Bjornsen") it just isn't proper. If you are submitting a report you should only be able to document what your character experienced personally and hope that the evidence you provide can make charges stick. The other thing is that, like real life, memories get clouded over time. You shouldn't even use screenshots as an aid to write your report; you remember what you remember and if that isn't enough to convict that's too bad for you, better luck next time.

I maintain, and would like emphasize that memories do get clouded over a span of time less than even 5 minutes. For this reason, it is precisely why if I was presiding, I would prefer logs from both sides, or even just one side, over logs from neither side, and just playing the popularity contest. Even one-sided logs or screenshots, to me, makes more sense than "I know this player, they're a good player, they probably didn't do anything wrong." That kind of heavy-handed and thoughtless decision making has gotten me unlawfully banned in the past, actually. In any conflict, both halves of it are quite possibly going to be highly-emotionally charged with their own belief that they're in the right. If you're not using real evidence apart from emotions to solve the dispute, pray tell, what are you resolving, and how can you even guarantee fairness?

Assuming that the DM does take the evidence in this physical form of screenshot or log, if that DM doesn't also give the defendant a chance to defend their perspective before doling punishment, the impetuous decision falls still on bad judgement and bias rather than someone who's trying to be fair and equal. That being said, I fully encourage all players to log all of their activities, as it's helped me significantly in the past with continuity, and being able to re-read through RP and experience it again! I can't tell you how many times people say things happened X way, then I copy paste from the log and then they're like "oh yeah...."

It seems to me (I might be wrong) that ucfgoose is talking about something IC, while RaveN is talking OOC... At least on an OOC level, why wouldn't screenshots or logs be valid for reports? I mean, for anyone speaking Latin, in dubio pro reo? Innocent until proven guilty? In that case, you really need proof in oder to submit a report. And server rules go above what a "character" experiences.

If we are talking IC reports of crimes and the like, then it is just word of mouth, and the best along the lines of a screenshot would be a painting.

Maybe I made a mountain out of a molehill. I do that sometimes. :oops:

I was talking about situations like a PvP that went salty and both halves are crying to the DM's at the same time. I know if I was in that DM's shoes, I'd want all the information I could get that wasn't attached to a player's mouth. It's just that in my experience, too often in the past I have seen them "jump in" and fix the problem by getting it all wrong because nobody cares what actually happened, more "who was involved" - which all shades of wrong and cliquey.. No chip on my shoulder! I'm just curious how we handle problems here. :idea:

Sometimes having logs does something else nobody considers! That maybe something was a misunderstanding... and that it's not so bad... if you just... consider where everyone came from when they did something with the knowledge they had! :mrgreen:

in terms of actual server rules screenshots are king. if you even think pvp might break out make your chat boxes as big as possible and start hitting 'print screen.' seeing pvp started because someone make a touch attack on you, then you needing to make a will save vs mind affecting and 'unknown spell,' before you rolled over someone, knowing it for a fact you 'responded' to hostility because you have the screenshots, will save your ass.

in short print screen repeatedly in every fight. always. this isn't even a debate.

as for 'ic' screenshots in 'ic' threads, if you wern't there and the conversation was minor, then you don't know it. if it's a big thing that went down you deserve to know exactly what it is. think of how much less drama there would have been over the first Nec siege if people just posted a few screenshots of the battle so the Nec residents actually knew what happened in the city they lived in?

We're mature people here, we're all adults, ic screenshots just exist so you can literally verify that what's being said in an ic thread actually happened, not so you can ic know the exact words used, just so you know ic that the paragraph you just read about character x biting their thumb at character y and then taking a dump on the sidewalk actually did happen and it isn't a load of bull/slander/libel. In retrospect, the post that started all this should have just said "The following exchange between Aedan and Kilmar over an altar of Selune happened in the center of town: *screenshots*", and it would have been totally 100% fine by all counts (and as it stands the post was still fine as it was). If you would know ic what happened because your character exists in the hours you arn't logged on then you know it, if not you don't, which is exactly the same as any other ic happening posted. Just like the NPC's, it's ok to have a delayed reaction to things because IRL you're at work or someshit and can't handle it the moment it happens.

And that's why it's better then just typing a blurb, and that's why if you do post an ic screen, it needs to be huge, unedited (minus personal ooc ish you would/should blank out) and complete. So it can be an unbias retelling of what went down, and then players can decide based on where their character is, if they know what happened or not. Same as any other ic happening.

There's a measure of metagaming in 100% proving IC things did happen, though. That's why I've always thought such screenshots with dialogue of something big happening (like a Selunite destroying an altar of Selune) would be left to OOC reports to DMs for NPC reactions, PM'ed and not posted publicly. Posting things like that for DMs in a public manner just looks like a way to discredit or call someone out. If your character did something wrong and someone got a screenshot of it, you'd probably prefer the entire server didn't suddenly know about it and accidental or intentional metagaming started to take place due to the indisputable nature of screenshots.

I understand you didn't mean for it to be an OOC post, but it read like a report to the DMs specifically so they could have NPCs react, if they were going to (all your OOC notes pointed to this, indicating NPCs and their reactions specifically). You prove to the DMs that it happened, not to other players. By showing exactly what happened word-for-word, you remove the "Is this thing I heard about true?" RP. You force players to accept it as truth, and many won't bother disputing it then. There's no mystery, no word-of-mouth failure to report what happened accurately. And no chance for a character to try to lie his or her way out of something, when the OOC "proof" not being present might give them that avenue of RP.

I imagine that must be part of the reason Amarice doesn't approve of them, as a personal opinion. And this is all my personal opinion, too!

For OOC reporting, screenshots are of course the go-to. That's always been the case for OOC reporting things the DMs need to be aware of. Of all the other posts which have screenshots for IC things, they're not used only to report things to DMs so they can take any further steps necessary per NPC reactions. I have a post in that thread with a screenshot myself, but there's no dialogue and it was just for a pretty picture of a magic casting. xD

as a side note, here's some general pvp stuff i've found to be true.

1. Most important rule; you can always defend yourself. Attacked in the center of kohl with no dm's on? Fight back. Screenshot that shit but fight back.

2. You don't need to use the pvp tool on someone pre-fight, or ensure you're mutually flagged. That's on them. You SHOULD do those things, but it's not really possible to verify someone's hostile status to you and they can be different. In short, "but I wasn't flagged" doesn't mean it was an ooc kill if the pvp rules were followed.

3. You need to warn someone IC and OOC when you're prepared to throwdown. You also have to give them an out, which can (and should) be something short and to the point like "Leave or die. ((pvp warning, flagging))."

4. If someone gives you the above warning, you can kill their ass right then and there. You don't have to warn them BACK that you are ALSO prepared for pvp; see note 1.

5. If someone gave a warning understand that basically anything you do at that point makes you pvp legal. Rest? Ward without asking permission ic? Cast ANY spell? Hips? Can kill. You're on thin as fuck ice once the flag and warning goes out and should honestly treat the situation like someone has a gun pointed at you, because they IC essentially do have a gun pointed at you. If you want out, telegraph what you're doing. "I can't run without bulls strength, can I cast that and then get out of here quickly?" Likewise, if you are the aggressor in the above situation, and they roll an attack, cast an 'unknown spell,' or make you make a save, you are good to slay.

6. Nobody has to understand anything, and some people simply don't understand everything. If you cast continual light everyone sees that you made an attack on everyone else. Someone without spellcraft just sees you casting an unknown spell against their AC. If they don't know what it was (for example, the spell misses and there's no visible effect) it's totally within the rules (and depending on the situation might be totally warranted) to attack due to hostile action; see number 1. In short, don't cast shit like that because there is a non-zero chance someone might take offense.

7. Screenshot literally everything. At the very least screenshot the game the moment you or someone else gives a pvp warning and again after the combat is done. It's one button.

8. It doesn't matter if it was an accident, it doesn't matter if you tabbed back in and accidentally did an action, it doesn't matter if you didn't 'mean' to roll an attack or cast a spell, if you fat-finger a button and shit goes down because you have hellball on F7 and somehow hellballed as you tabbed back in or started typing, it's legit pvp. "Obviously I wouldn't have hellballed/mind-blanked/whirlwind attacked after you gave me a pvp warning!" doesn't fly.

From da actual rulez;

Quote:

7. If you do not give the other party time to observe the usual protocol, you can't expect them to stick to the protocol. This means that by resting, buffing or other such preperations to hostility, you forfeit your right to a warning: The other party may attack you immediately to stop you. If you have not set them to Hostile before, you can't blame them for having to act without it. Both parties should strive to set eachother to Hostile after the immediate reaction, however.

Jes wrote:

There's a measure of metagaming in 100% proving IC things did happen, though. That's why I've always thought such screenshots with dialogue of something big happening (like a Selunite destroying an altar of Selune) would be left to OOC reports to DMs for NPC reactions, PM'ed and not posted publicly. Posting things like that for DMs in a public manner just looks like a way to discredit or call someone out. If your character did something wrong and someone got a screenshot of it, you'd probably prefer the entire server didn't suddenly know about it and accidental or intentional metagaming started to take place due to the indisputable nature of screenshots.

I understand you didn't mean for it to be an OOC post, but it read like a report to the DMs specifically so they could have NPCs react, if they were going to (all your OOC notes pointed to this, indicating NPCs and their reactions specifically). You prove to the DMs that it happened, not to other players. By showing exactly what happened word-for-word, you remove the "Is this thing I heard about true?" RP. You force players to accept it as truth, and many won't bother disputing it then. There's no mystery, no word-of-mouth failure to report what happened accurately. And no chance for a character to try to lie his or her way out of something, when the OOC "proof" not being present might give them that avenue of RP.

I imagine that must be part of the reason Amarice doesn't approve of them, as a personal opinion. And this is all my personal opinion, too!

For OOC reporting, screenshots are of course the go-to. That's always been the case for OOC reporting things the DMs need to be aware of. Of all the other posts which have screenshots for IC things, they're not used only to report things to DMs so they can take any further steps necessary per NPC reactions. I have a post in that thread with a screenshot myself, but there's no dialogue and it was just for a pretty picture of a magic casting. xD

Again, there's a lot of difference of opinion here. But as it stands the post specifically was fine.

Just because someone posted a screen doesn't mean your character knows 100% what went down unless you feel as a player it's appropriate for you to know 100% what went down, and if that's the case then you have a screenshot.

And as has been demonstrated DM's were notified.

Yeah, I was just offering my opinion on it, personally! I wasn't saying you did wrong, with my post. It was more general than talking about your specific post - I just used yours as an example to illustrate why I personally think it would've been better as a PM. I'm trying not to point these questions/answers right at your specific post, as some people took it a bit too far in singling you out for it. In general, though, that is my opinion on the screensot question.

Question: Can someone at any time ask in-game for XP and gold from a DM in exchange for DCs, in order to save time if they wanna do a lot of levels? Example! I make a new PC and I'm level 4. I wanna just use DCs to get to level 25 and I ask a DM to take 25 DCs from me in exchange for the XP and the right amount of gold. It just saves time with tedious clicking, after all. Assuming the math is right, is this something players can do, theoretically, or do the DMs want us to just go through the clicking to save anyone from math mistakes and such?

Wouldn't 25 DC's only get you to 23? Since after 21 it's 2 DC's per level?

I'm starting at level 4!

17 to get to 21.
8 to get to 25.

25

..Reading is hard.

Haha!

As a side note, the "What are Dream Coins" section here needs updated to reflect the DC XP and GP changes.

thetangerinetornado wrote:

Does the Blackguard casting of Eagles Splendor stack with potions like their casting of Bulls Strength does?

no, only bull's

Yeah, the later added assassins and blackguard spells were coded so as to be instances of the same spell ,rather than bioware's coding of separate buff instances.

If a PrC had a feat requirement such as a skill focus, would its epic equivalent be an allowed alternative? Speaking purely emulated PrCs, of course.

I don't see why not imo

Next random question. I read a bit about Myrkulytes. They are rarely (like, almost never, Jergal levels, in a way more extreme) allowed to raise someone. Like Clerics can almost never cast raise dead or resurrection. However, there is one thing they often (used to) do. They carry dead bodies to other deities' temples and have their clerics raise them.

1. Raise dead scrolls: Are they channeled from the deity? Does that deity need to give their permission to use that spell? Are Myrkulyte clerics allowed to use the scrolls?
2. Am I allowed to use a scroll as an OOC raise, "carry" them to a city, and ask another player? Or is that metagaming NPCs? I mean, I see the difficulty there, and that's why I'm asking.

This kind of leaves me in a difficult place, because I am thinking about making one. I know it leaves me in front of a few problems, but I'm sorting those out too.

Also, how does Suffering domain stack with other metamagic? Or any other domain "auto-meta" work? Can I double meatmagic? Or maximise and empower? Or what can I do?

I understood it as the Deity who is providing the power is "ingrained" into the scroll at creation. That is to say the deity of the cleric you buy it from is most likely the deity who is granting the raise. So for most people using scrolls of Raise Dead that's probably Waukeen I'd wager, from Tristana in Cordor.

It's up to the DM to speak for what gods allow and don't allow, but even so there is always a lot of room given for worshiper interpretation(gods are big, having only one feeling towards an idea is the stuff of smaller things IMO). But if a Myrkulite is allowed to take a body to another temple to have it raised, I don't see why using a Raise Dead scroll of another deity would be any different. It's a matter of convenience at that point.

robbi320 wrote:

2. Am I allowed to use a scroll as an OOC raise, "carry" them to a city, and ask another player? Or is that metagaming NPCs? I mean, I see the difficulty there, and that's why I'm asking.

I can't give an official ruling, but I can tell you what I do in-game.
I've had my characters ooc use a Raise scroll, and taken them to either another PC, or to an NPC that has the menu with the Heal option, if the PvP Tool wasn't an option.
Then there is the default Salandrans, because neutral. lol

In that case, I'd wager it is case dependant, but usually alright. I mean, some gods are a bit weird. Myrkul is the god of the dead, not the god of death (Bhaal). Weirdly enough, suffering does not fit him at all. His priests ease the dying, to make their suffering less... He only cares about death in that he makes people fear death, and he has a similar end view as Jergal. Everyone will be his in the end. At the same time, the dead can have an affect on people, one other point of Myrkul. Undeath, wills, testaments, laws, riddles leading to hidden treasures.

Now, if the power comes from Waukeen, then I would assume a cleric is allowed to use that. Of course, the charge rate would be higher than just bringing them to a Cleric. More starting expenses.

To Kudark, that was what I was thinking, but I'm not sure if the guards in Cordor would just let me carry a body through Cordor the Tristana. Bendir maybe, because he is right there, but I'm not sure.

Yeah, the Salandran Temple saw a lot more action when there was a ferry from Kampo's. Now you have to walk, unless your portal wand is attuned there.

Quote:

I understood it as the Deity who is providing the power is "ingrained" into the scroll at creation. That is to say the deity of the cleric you buy it from is most likely the deity who is granting the raise. So for most people using scrolls of Raise Dead that's probably Waukeen I'd wager, from Tristana in Cordor.

This was my general assumption as well, tbh.

How does that interact with rejecting a rause. Do I then only need to give the deity I bought it from? I mean, why would he know who is the patron deity of the person raising him? I thought it came from you seeing the deity investing power in your raise.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

I understood it as the Deity who is providing the power is "ingrained" into the scroll at creation. That is to say the deity of the cleric you buy it from is most likely the deity who is granting the raise. So for most people using scrolls of Raise Dead that's probably Waukeen I'd wager, from Tristana in Cordor.

This was my general assumption as well, tbh.

SRD wrote:

A soul cannot be returned to life if it does not wish to be. A soul knows the name, alignment, and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to revive it and may refuse to return on that basis.

The verbage is specifically "attempting to revive [specific subject]" not "casting the spell", which is a pretty strong case to the contrary. It's a bit harder to rationalise, but that's the rule as written.

Anyway it doesn't matter too much since the subject forgets this information instantly, but there is the metagame concern. There's also the far more devious concern of "How come Fred didn't accept best friend Rupert's raise? Is he trying to tell us something about George's personal convictions and where he goes to church that he won't remember when he wakes up?" You could argue that PCs don't know that this brief information exchange takes place, but since it's possible to gain this information through empirical research the concern is very real.

Luckily it's generally considered an optional rule that's rarely observed.

Don't forget that a soul can choose that it is their time to move on, so that makes it unlikely people will be like 'omg it's a deity thing!'.

Then again, isn't there a lot of possibilities?

Your deity says 'nope you can't come back'
A demon grabs your soul (or your soul makes a deal while dead)
You are Faithless and Jergal says 'lolno, rot'

I think those are all viable reasons for a soul not returning.

A while ago I was told, while I was a DM, that the deity of the scroll depends on the one using the actual Raise Dead scroll. I assume it was ruled that way to make it easier to trace back and figure out what deity people are accepting the call from. Though generally I know that scrolls, when used up, take the XP cost from the scriber (I'm pretty sure, at least) so it could make sense either way. The former just seems easier for the sake of figuring out the source.

As usual, things change and with this many new faces it can be a different ruling all together by now. That's just the assumption I roll with until told otherwise, for now, if it ever comes up (which it never really did, besides that once when I asked while DMing)

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