There is something that has been bothering me a great deal and I feel the need to bring it up again after several players complained to me about it. I am talking about using thought bubbles to insult others, regardless of whether or not it is IC. I despise this. Most every, if not every, DM despises this. If I see you doing this I will ask you nicely to stop, and if it continues we will have a serious problem.
Some thought bubbles are quite entertaining and add a great deal to the RP, that is not what I am talking about here. When they become a medium to insult without suffering the IC repurcussions of it then it becomes a problem.
Insulting thought bubbles are not only unnecessary, they are often rooted in OOC. I have witnessed MULTIPLE occurances of players I knew for a fact had a history of bad feelings between them trade these "inner thoughts" of their characters. If there was no such history before the thoughts there is often such after. People don't take kindly to being called "idiot", "whore", or any of the other countless unnecessary insults I have seen from thought bubbles.
Is this officially against the rules? No, not yet. Will it be soon? If I had my way, yes. Will you make DMs and players alike annoyed with you if you do it? Absolutely.
_________________ According to Dictionary.com: Liberal: Relating to or having social and political views that favor progress and reform Conservative: Favoring the preservation of established customs, values, etc, and opposing innovation. 'Nuff said.
I think thought bubbles are plain annoying altogether. Whether used for ooc or ic, I think they are unnecessary and they never enhance roleplay. 99.9% of thought bubbles are sarcastic remarks anyway, and I have never seen a situation where they were used correctly, if such a thing even exists. I don't know who invented thought bubbles, but I for one am not glad for them.
I was never familiar with thought bubble before I came to Amia since other servers that I played on dont apply that thing. Initially I thought oO( means ooc or // . Personally? I dont like the idea of that bubble thingy since we dont have to KNOW on what YOU think.
_________________ Account Name : Wilsoninov
Character Name : Wilzoon Amstrad, The "~~Best singer~~" of the Logjammer.
Wibegg Coinagorest, part time Druid - part time beggar.
My thoughts... are unless I have some way to read your mind... I don't need to see it floating above your head. 99% of the thought bubbles I see on amia are a way to make an ooc jab at someone without suffering the ic consequences, just as Straz said. It's childish. We aren't in kindergarden, we can come up with more constructive ways to be insultive.
_________________ It's your chance, to do the dance..Do the Rosle, do the Rosle dance.. uh-huh do the Rosle dance!
My main uses thought bubbles though his offensive thoughts tend to be aimed towards groups of ppl instead of a specific person. If he sees some humans doing something he doesn't agree with he will sigh, shake his head & think to himself oO ( tallers! geez ) Oo That being said I can see how the bubbles may be abused but speaking for myself I try not to go overboard with such things.
I can appreciate thought bubbles being used sometimes for light comedic value. Beyond that, I have no opinion, save that insulting through bubbles is annoying.
_________________ Born to a [wealth level] family, you spent your early years doing [early activity] in [town type]. Your father was [father status], while your mother was [mother status]. You left your homeland at the age of [chosen age], seeking [reason for leaving].
It's sort of the same deal with emotes. IE, '*Takes a good, hard look at the stupid, smelly, fat, unattractive drow.*', only in a bit more ambiguous way. They can get on one's nerves when you know they're intentionally trying to bash the player, not the character.
Actually... I quite often got compliments of how I expressed Semli's rather... 'odd'... thoughts through thoughtbubbles. Then again, he never insulted or really thought ill thoughts about other people.
It's also a rather nice way to at least show you're taking part in any RP, while you're travelling with someone else and you're in GS.
Joined: 16 Jun 2006 Location: I'm pretty lost but I don't wanna be found.
I have had times where thought bubbles were used very well.. in fact i thought thet the players using them did it very well... It also explains to other players motives behind their characters actions which otherwise would cause other players to question whether or not that player was behaving OOC.
_________________ "The householder's disdain for the vagabond hides a hint of jealousy."
My thoughts... are unless I have some way to read your mind... I don't need to see it floating above your head. 99% of the thought bubbles I see on amia are a way to make an ooc jab at someone without suffering the ic consequences, just as Straz said. It's childish. We aren't in kindergarden, we can come up with more constructive ways to be insultive.
Quoted for emphasis; I wholeheartedly agree
_________________ Working on tastey new adventures! Playing: Theos Gend, Perry Sawmir, Mers Larin Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the two giant wolves.
.oO(Boobies) is the only one that isn't metagaming, as long as it floats above a male conversating with a female. Every remotely sensible character will know they think that all the time.
Joined: 13 Jan 2006 Location: Belfast, N. Ireland, UK
DM Disco wrote:
.oO(Boobies) is the only one that isn't metagaming, as long as it floats above a male conversating with a female. Every remotely sensible character will know they think that all the time.
And the female equivalent to that is? .o0(My he's got a big 'package')
If any of my characters use thought bubbles, it's usually fun and/or humorous. Or it simply is general plotting, afterwhich I'll add a little emote (ie: maybe she laughs a little at a thought she had). But as for OOC insults, it's a no-no.
A similar incident happened just last night with a few players, but I went to bed shortly after as I wanted to avoid any OOC drama that would possibly arise.
I don't see anything wrong with people making thought bubbles, as long as it doesn't insinuate any OOC insulting...
There's nothing wrong with thought bubbles, unless they're very rude towards characters.
People seem to think that they're just OOC and enhance the RP in no way. This is completely untrue. Thought bubbles can be a big deal for character developement. To actually advance your character's personality, I think it's better to do the pondering in game, rather than to just decide that "this is how my char thinks, period."
Also, we are not role-playing for the characters. We, as players, are here to create a world of fantasy and stories together. We are allowed to, and should, know more about the story than what our characters see. Very rarely is a book or a movie written from one person's perspective only. The reader/viewer is given information that the characters don't know, so that they can see the big picture and enjoy the uneducated actions of the characters more fully.
And, as mentioned by someone else, it's also a way to show you're RPing, even if you're quiet. Indeed, emotes can do this too, but if you add thought bubbles to it, you let the other players see a lot more of your character. What they think, why they act like they do, and how many levels there actually is to the story.
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On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
I use thought bubbles on the rare occasion (usually for humor), though I never use them to insult others when my character can't say it aloud. For that I just emote how she says something else or a facial expression. I have, however, had a lot of times where my character is insulted in thought bubbles. It actually doesn't bother me that much except that often the person continues until they've said insults about ten times over and I'm thinking, "I get it already; your character doesn't like mine. I really don't need to hear it again unless my character can respond to it."
I don't have a big issue with it, but it does get annoying. I don't care if my character is critisized by yours, even in a thought bubble, but I don't need ten thought bubbles to get the point. After a couple of different insults saying the same thing, they seem a little pointless to me (and I have had other players who aren't even the subject of the thought bubbles telling me the other person is annoying them). Because a person's character can't know the thought bubbles ICly, it is essentially like OOCly sticking your tongue out at a player and saying, "Nyah nyah, your character can't do anything about mine because I'm doing it in a thought bubble!"
So, is it a big deal in my opinion? Not really (as long as they are IC and not OOC insults).
Can they get annoying if used as described above? Yes, it can get a little annoying, and seems like pointless RP to me.
That being said, if you feel the need to use a thought bubble to show that your character doesn't like mine, I don't really mind. I personally prefer using ways that give their character a hint how my character feels rather than just telling the person OOCly, but it doesn't matter to me if other people RP differently. Just please don't use them excessively after you've made your point.
I also have seen thought bubbles used to add humor or depth to RP, and I believe they do have good uses at the appropriate times.
Just my opinion.
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Last edited by Darli on Wed, Aug 30 2006, 16:51 PM, edited 6 times in total.
I am of mixed mind on it. I can see the OOC of it and people abusing it. On the other hand, it is for me, often a good way to really get into my character in a way that a simple emote cannot quite match. It's like writing a diary and understanding yourself better as a result. Understanding your characters motivations, in this case. I have at times had people send me tells asking what my characters thoughts mean and that it makes them sound interesting as a character. I have also used them to diffuse any OOC angers that might arise if my PC is doing something negative to someones PC and my character has no real animousity; the thought bubble can help to diffuse any possible OOC that might arise.
So it's a two way street, imo. It can be abused or it can add flavour in more than one way.
Only use I've ever seen thought bubbles be is when used as short and quick comic relief. Keep what you're character is thinking to itself or risk annoyed people, annoyed dm, or just general metagaming.
I guess I'll take the risk, rather than play a 2-dimensional, boring character with nothing more to him but the things he says. I never worry about metagaming, as I can simply ignore it, and annoyance of others isn't really anything to me.
If you're not interested in other characters, then what's the point of playing online in the first place?
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On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
Actually, I believe that's exactly what Semidi was, quite clearly, saying:
Semidi wrote:
Keep what you're character is thinking to itself or risk annoyed people, annoyed dm, or just general metagaming.
Perhaps I'm taking this too seriously, but it's quite cheapening towards my RP and the effort I've put into my characters to have half the thread full of implications that thought bubbles are never used for anything good. True, they are often abused. However, even if there is only one rose amongst a thousand thorns, is it not worth it?
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On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
I guess I'll take the risk, rather than play a 2-dimensional, boring character with nothing more to him but the things he says. I never worry about metagaming, as I can simply ignore it, and annoyance of others isn't really anything to me.
If you're not interested in other characters, then what's the point of playing online in the first place?
In my opinion, thought bubbles that give insight to me how some other character works is as bad as having a biography in your character description. You don't read other peoples minds in real life, do you? Reacting to other characters' sayings, emotions and body language naturally and as your character is to me how roleplaying should be. Even if you can ignore metagaming, some of us would rather not try.
_________________ _________________
Amir Ruain'yn - Monk/intermediate
What I know as a player about the story and characters, and how my characters react to other characters, are two very seperate things. Like I said, when reading a book I usually want to know more than the main character does. It's the same with role-playing. If you can't keep IC and OOC information seperated, I guess that's a shame. I have no trouble doing so.
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On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
I never said they weren't allowed. I just find things I'm not allowed to react to, that doesn't affect the enviroment, things I shouldn't know, and things I can later be accused of metagaming are annoying. I'm sorry if my honest opinion has offended you.
I just get real tired of porting into an area with so little IC chatter being said and a whole lotta .o0(blah blah blah) if your character is thinking of something I personally would prefer if it was put in an emote or kept to themselves, because it's your character with thoughts and feelings... That I shouldn't know unless it's been told to them IC or they've determined it themselves.
This isn't a book with an omiciant narrator. It's a roleplaying game.
Based on some opinions expressed in this thread, I can assume that we will soon be seeing the removal of the PC Story Thread.
These are IC events that I should have no knowledge of because I am not a mindreader, nor have I stolen someone's diary, nor have I been informed of anything that has occurred in the PC Story thread IC.
Examples are as follows:
M. Daernais'shal's Personal Notes....
A note to the Duergar Brothers of the Bloodbeard Clan...
[Earylduil] Burnt Out....
The Journal of Kaatje Thaxathinadin....
Rhode and Tuain't take their leave.....
Soliloquy for Two....
Letters from Svartalfhiem: Erelkacha's time away from Amia....
I don't think it's so much the question of if you use thought bubbles, but more of how you use them. Even IC insults in thought bubbles can be used appropriately, depending on what your purpose is when using them. I think all too often people's purposes are simply to get back at other players without IC repercussions or to make up for not being able to say it aloud and sticking their tongue out at someone saying, "Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah!" If one is using the thought bubbles to actually enhance roleplay (or add humor occasionally) then I see it as being a good RP tool to use occasionally, depending on the situation.
And yes, good point, Smelly. I think you can enhance RP with things others don't know ICly. Often you can just add an entertaining element to it, like the PC Story section that has some very well-written and interesting stories to read. And, of course, if people want to avoid accidental metagaming, they can always choose not to read that section of the forums or thought bubbles.
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Last edited by Darli on Wed, Aug 30 2006, 17:12 PM, edited 1 time in total.
Based on some opinions expressed in this thread, I can assume that we will soon be seeing the removal of the PC Story Thread.
These are IC events that I should have no knowledge of because I am not a mindreader, nor have I stolen someone's diary, nor have I been informed of anything that has occurred in the PC Story thread IC.
Examples are as follows:
M. Daernais'shal's Personal Notes.... A note to the Duergar Brothers of the Bloodbeard Clan... [Earylduil] Burnt Out.... The Journal of Kaatje Thaxathinadin.... Rhode and Tuain't take their leave..... Soliloquy for Two.... Letters from Svartalfhiem: Erelkacha's time away from Amia....
It's your choice to click on them. I can't help but read what's in a thought bubble.
Based on some opinions expressed in this thread, I can assume that we will soon be seeing the removal of the PC Story Thread.
These are IC events that I should have no knowledge of because I am not a mindreader, nor have I stolen someone's diary, nor have I been informed of anything that has occurred in the PC Story thread IC.
Examples are as follows:
M. Daernais'shal's Personal Notes.... A note to the Duergar Brothers of the Bloodbeard Clan... [Earylduil] Burnt Out.... The Journal of Kaatje Thaxathinadin.... Rhode and Tuain't take their leave..... Soliloquy for Two.... Letters from Svartalfhiem: Erelkacha's time away from Amia....
The difference is you can choose not to read the PC Story section, but in game if you happen to be around it's 'whoopsie-daisy'.
Edit: Damn, too slow.
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Amir Ruain'yn - Monk/intermediate
I never said they weren't allowed. I just find things I'm not allowed to react to, that doesn't affect the enviroment, things I shouldn't know, and things I can later be accused of metagaming are annoying. I'm sorry if my honest opinion has offended you.
... That I shouldn't know unless it's been told to them IC or they've determined it themselves.
Ah, but therein lies the difference. You're never told anything ICly, are you? Just like your characters aren't told anything OOCly. Personally, I don't see any difficulty in seperating what's IC and what's OOC.
EDIT: Meh, I misread a little. Still, my opinion stands. What you know doesn't have anything to do with what your character knows.
Quote:
This isn't a book with an omiciant narrator. It's a roleplaying game.
Other than the fact that we can control the characters and Amia isn't printed on paper.. I honestly don't see what's the difference.
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On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
The problem lie in the fact that while YOU dont find any problem seeing other's tought bubbles some people DO take it as offence. And we all know to what that leads. You can continue as you like but that way you're possibly making the game not so fun for someone else. So it's your fun that matters or the person next to you? How much we can make compromises to reach that happy land where we're all liking the of what we play.
Myself I dont care tought pubbles and I often see myself not bothering to even read them since they dont add anything to the actual rp happening that is; The characters actions & emotions.
_________________ "Collan" the Skald; Where the Wild Roses Grow -Tribute to all you beauties that met your fate by his hand
I hardly ever use them with most of my characters, but...I do have a drow that uses thought bubbles from time to time (NOT EVER for insulting others, mind you). I find it a good way to enhance the fact that my character is, well....drow. If he's being super nice to someone, he may have a thought that indicates, for example, that he's trying to figure out a way to bend the situation to his advantage.
Sure it's knowledge that others wouldn't know IC, but for some it adds to the fun. As IronAngel said, some people like to know a little more than their main character would, to add to the enjoyment of the story.
If anyone ever told me (and noone ever has) that it's disruptive to their RP, I'd either stop or find someone else to RP with. Not everyone likes to play in the same way.
_________________ Come to the dark side...we have cookies.
The purpose of the PC story is just that. Stories about one's character. It doesn't necessarily mean only thoughts.
We play this MMORPG together to meet and interact with other characters. Stories and other fun tidbits about a character only enhances this experience and curiosity that people might have. It is your choice if you tend to use the information to metagame and ruin this experience (which, many will look down upon if you do end up doing this)...
I've never had a single character who used thought bubbles, or needed to. I've used a few // once in a while for a comic relief comment, but other than that... whats the point? None of my characters I believe ANYONE could call flat or two dementional. They are always developing as they go... and people are able to see this through thier actions, words, and general demenor. I'm not a fan of thought bubbles in general, some people simply don't like them when their insulting. I can handle them when they're just comic relief, but honestly... I like there to be a bit of mystery about a character. My last few visits to the underdark... I didn't see comic relief.. or character developing thought bubbles. You know what I saw? A drow male getting talked to by a drow female... and he spams everyone with ooc remarks in his throught bubbles about how much of a bitch she is, and how her house is crap. Now... not only is that SHIT lack of rp, it is also degrading the experience for those who have to see the player act like a baby because thier character... is IC recieving what they should. THOSE are the types of thought bubbles that drive me nuts. It's like running around with the blackguard perma aura of dispair up 24/7.... It's ok to have just a TINY bit of intrigue to your character, you don't HAVE to scream you are evil, or your character is a biatch. I'm sure we'll find that out thier thier actions, words, and demenor. Meh, I'm starting to ramble, but honestly the ooc bashing through thought bubbles needs to go.
As for the character story and lore page, that is a fun way to express history about your character, and also to show things that are currently going on that characters could hear about. It's a good developing and artistic outlet. But as was stated... reading it is optional, and you won't find a page of ooc snide remarks hidden in the form of 'thoughts'.
Do I care too much if you do thought bubbles? No, it's really your thing, I ignore them as much as I can. Do I care if you do the insulting and babyish ones? Yes. I'm getting rather tired of seeing those.
_________________ It's your chance, to do the dance..Do the Rosle, do the Rosle dance.. uh-huh do the Rosle dance!
Joined: 13 Jan 2006 Location: Belfast, N. Ireland, UK
So insults in a thought bubbles are not acceptable but insults in straight talking are? Bit hypocrytical dont you think, and dont tell me they dont happen. Not more than 30 minutes ago did my character get called a slut and a wentch in the middle of Cordor.
So if you are going to ban people who do the thought bubble insults it stands to reason you will bann those who insult in plain talk. So from now on does everyone have to talk 'nicely' to each other, even during IC fighting that leads to PvP?
Now I took those insults with a pinch of salt, they where insults to my character not me as a person. If you are emotionally attached to you character and get upset because someone called them a name or humilated them, well then as a concerned amia community member I would suggest you seek help. Because thats not healthy social behaviour
To be honest, I've only ever seen a few thought bubbles in which it would even matter if they were accidentally metagamed. For instance, . o O (I like pie): does it really matter if everyone accidentally metagames the fact that someone's character likes pie? Not in most cases. I would actually advise that people not reveal their character's deepest darkest secret in a thought bubble, however. It's unlikely that someone won't be able to keep the information OOC, but often it's difficult to act normally ICly when one knows something big OOCly.
For instance:
Character B is suspicious of Character A talking to people he shouldn't be.
Character A: . o O (I love So-and-so, even though Character B would behead me if he found out.)
The next day:
Character B sees Character A heading off alone upstairs in the Nomad. Now Player B is faced with a dilemma: does his character follow Character A or not? Character B was already suspicious of Character A, but was he suspicious enough to follow now or is Player B's OOC knowledge affecting his IC actions?
Another example:
Character A strongly dislikes Character B.
Character B: . o O (I plan to kill Character A in his sleep if he lets me stay in his house tonight.) Can I stay in your house tonight? I have nowhere else to stay . . .
Player A: My character wouldn't normally let his stay in his house, but if I say no now, I might be accused of metagaming, so what do I do?
So my suggestion is not to tell people huge secrets through thought bubbles, because sometimes it is difficult for them to determine whether their actions are metagaming or not. However, for most thought bubbles, it really doesn't matter if people accidentally metagame the information, or it isn't difficult not to metagame it. For everything else, I say the player using the thought bubble uses it at his or her own risk.
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Last edited by Darli on Wed, Aug 30 2006, 18:01 PM, edited 3 times in total.
Dave... are you on crack? No... honestly, you seem to be missing the point of ALL of the prior posts. There is quite a difference between a thought bubble that ic your character would never hear, and a character actually saying something. The difference... MY GOODNESS! Your character knows that ic. And they can act and react to it within the bounds of an in character environment... without having to metagame. That is the big difference between the two. Thought bubbles are used to insult... so the other character has no means to react. And, it is left as an insult straight to the player. Thier character is left in character... impotent to do anything about it, since they wouldn't know. Now, someone calls your character a name... in words. You can... hmm, insult them back? Kill them? Hire someone to kill them? Sorry if I was a bit curt or abbrasive in my reply, but I haven't had my coffee... and I'm tired.
_________________ It's your chance, to do the dance..Do the Rosle, do the Rosle dance.. uh-huh do the Rosle dance!
Dave, it's not that I get upset in the least when my character is insulted through thought bubbles, it's more that it can get annoying when it gets excessive. As I said, since the thought bubbles are telling a player OOCly that your character doesn't like theirs, then depending on how you use them (sometimes IC insults through thought bubbles are used appropriately), it can essentially be like teasing someone's character to them OOCly without their character being able to do diddly about it.
Again, it depends on how you use the insults, but when used some of the ways I've seen them used, it can get a little annoying.
Does it upset me? No.
Do I get angry? Not at all.
Can it be a little annoying? Yes.
Does it enhance RP when it's used excessively? No.
When directed at a particular person, it is like sending tells to a player saying, "My character thinks your character is an idiot. My character doesn't like your character and thinks she is an ugly whore. My character thinks he could have done your character's job much better." Or maybe more like saying all that to someone OOCly in party chat while in a party of all your mutual friends; not very nice and rather annoying at times. That being said, I do believe there is a difference between this and when it is used in a way to enhance RP.
I'm not sure you understood Straz's point, as I believe (though I could have misunderstood) he was mainly talking about when people use thought bubbles to insult people either in place of OOC insults, or to essentially stick your tongue out at them OOCly (Laban also put it well two posts of his ago). I think it's totally reasonable that people would get annoyed in this case.
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I'm sure we'll find that out thier thier actions, words, and demenor. Meh, I'm starting to ramble, but honestly the ooc bashing through thought bubbles needs to go.