We want utilitarian! Greatest net fun, doesn't matter how it's distributed!
In that case, I claim that DMs have the most fun so DMs should be allowed to do whatever we want to players. If the greatest fun would come from deleting server vault, then that's what we should do, right?
We want utilitarian! Greatest net fun, doesn't matter how it's distributed!
In that case, I claim that DMs have the most fun so DMs should be allowed to do whatever we want to players. If the greatest fun would come from deleting server vault, then that's what we should do, right?
Hissss.... more fun clearly goes to the players. I will ban you first!
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
Anyway, why don't you (and not just singular you) also try to be on your best behaviour and RP when DMs are not around? Doing that would sure make the game more enjoyable to everyone.
My singular I has other goals as well: Gold, gear, godhood (or some variation thereof). I like to pursue these when there are less people about or people with the same mindset as me.
On the other hand, when I see people that I assume to be RP-happy (and DMs fall into that category, at least until I know better), I RP with them. For the reasons mentioned above, I try to be at my best when interacting with the DMs. With other players, I test the waters first and sometimes give up and sometimes have great fun.
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
In all seriousness, though, if a character deserves the position they deserve the position, I don't care whether the are being played by a DM, Joe Blow from down the street or some insane KGB agent in Russia.
_________________ 2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
I agree entirely and it was the point of my earlier post, which seems to have been ignored or thought irrelevant, though I will need Yurell to step this way...
_________________
Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?
Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
Meh, if a Player and a DM are both neck and neck at leading a faction, I say screw giving it to Players by default. Most DM's are players too and are here to be players so in cases like that, let IC stuff determine who gets to be the leader. DM's should be able to have a fair shot at IC stuff like running faction as much as a Player.
Giving up on a player indicates an incredible failure on your part.
If everyone has the talent to make all time spent with anyone worthwhile, your statement is correct. Of course, then this situation would never come up, either.
I can honestly say that I do not have this talent. One might call it an incredible failure, but I dispute at least the "incredible" because I believe that most people focus their activities to maximize their enjoyment of the game.
We got a nice proverb for this in Finnish. Everyone knows the monkey but the monkey knows no one. Everyone who speaks to you knows you, but you don't have a clue who they are and whether you should know them or not and why are they trying to be friendly with you.
This worries or maybe even hurts me a little. I usually try and be nice / friendly to DMs, even if I don’t know them, just because I feel like they are often disgruntled, and could use a reminder there is a happy, friendly, and appreciative playerbase out there. Especially because the last few months of DMs vs players threads seem to show they (the DMs) certainly can get burned out and weary of all the whining and other insufferable nonsense we throw at them.
Im not saying I chat them up, but a humorous PM when they shout something OOC, or just a “nice job with XXXXX or YYYYY, that was neat”. Or even just a mutual “you must be rolling your eyes about YYYYY that just happened in that event, haha, can you believe some people?”.
I don’t know, the DMs just seem… sad… to me. I want to cheer them up. Sorry if the monkey doesn’t know me, but I hope the DMs aren’t thinking to themselves “who is this wierd guy PMing me, I don’t even know him…?”
_________________ "Earnest Hemingway once wrote, 'The world is a fine place, and worth fighting for.' I agree with the second part."
Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Location: Leather chair, USA. Tell me about your mother.
I'm not sad. O.o
I'm usually happy on the client. There are days when you do a "Hello I'm here" shout and suddenly 20 people wanna know why you don't get back to them really fast. That's what frustrates me the most.
That, and when players fight amongst one another. It's usually for a silly reason like loot or PVP And although someone has usually been genuinely wronged, I get bummed that I have to stop what I'm doing to come be mommy, but that's part of the territory.
Other than that I'd like to think I came off as pretty friendly. I've lost my temper once, I think. Felt terrible about it after.
Also, the times I'm on the client that people are friendly, helpful, thankful and creative far outweigh the bad times, in my experience. I love you guys, and I love this server.
It also helps that when someone complains about you or says nasty rotten things to you,(Which happens a lot) that you know who you are and what your motives are, and can take comfort in the fact that you're self aware of your achievements on Amia as a DM, and that you'll never be able to please everyone.
_________________ We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know.
I'm having a total Brian Peppers/Ceiling cat freak out moment right now after reading that, because it is truuuue.
_________________ Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.
Joined: 12 Oct 2005 Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
Yossarin wrote:
Selvec Darkon wrote:
It's much easier to keep secretecy, intiate DM run quests, and get approval for certain actions, when a DM leads a faction. I think most people cannot deny that part of the reason certain factions have remained secert or in power, is because a DM exerts an influence that stops other players from abusing rules or meta-gaming.
It's much easier to run a guild when your a DM. No doubt.
Oh, and then there is the whole "Unconcious biased opinion" thing, accidential abuse of power or such. Always a threat, and always a possability, no matter the person.
Would you accuse even a former DM leading a faction of the same malicious abuse of power?
Possibly, certain information is avaliable to former DM's that isn't avaliable to the general gaming populace. But I don't think the capacity for abuse is quite as high, espically in area's concerning content added after they left the role.
Concerning DMing as a role:
I don't know, I've always considered being a DM, on any server, as a responsability and a privliage. As with all things that give you quite a bit of influence and power, you should have responsabilites to hold as well. Yes, these responseabilities may mean you don't enjoy what you do sometimes, and yes, these responseabilities may mean you don't get to do certain things anymore. But I personally see this as the price paid and agreed to when the job was taken. It's possiably why I get a little angry at times, because I feel sometimes some of the DM's want the privlages, but do not want to live up to the responseability. Wither this is actually true or not, I have no idea, but it is how I felt quite a bit of the time when I played on Amia 1. It is part of the reason I left.
_________________ I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
I'm a powerbuilder by heart; whenever I logon the server, my gut instinct tells me to rip apart manticore and harpy wings. Heck, first thread I hit in this forum is the powerbuild thread, and it was the server modifications to NWN and the possibility of creating new builds that got me playing here in Amia.
With that said, my intentions for my first char was simply to try out the cleric class. I just wanted it to hit 30 then see what's all the fuss about. Somewhere along the number-crunching and grinding, a DM came along and gave me a DC for just having fun emoting slapping a messed up BG awake. It caught me off guard and got me confused, but it made me feel good since it kind of told me that I was doing something right.
Eventually, that moment came to pass. I hit 30 and was then grinding for mythals and ripping harpy wings, when I suddenly stumble upon drow. To make things short, my cleric got beat to a pulp, dragged around, and then horrendously mutilated. I just emoted the part and tried not to spoil the moment by being a mute vegetable... and then I received a DC.
What? Frankly I felt like I was overacting, but hey, it looks like I'm doing something right, heh.
But that's just it. Not to ride the high horse, but I've actually no idea what to do with DC's, nor do I feel the need for them. But whenever I receive them, it tells me that I'm doing something right and it gives me a standard to work on, as well as a motivation to improve my RP since I know there are people who at the very least appreciate the effort.
Oh, and they made me not want to throw my cleric into the back-burner. That's gotta count for some more points.
NPC and PC villains are an entirely different sack of potatoes. It's not fair to compare them at all. You can't tell me that Ankh'remun and Zan'thun would have been doable as PC villains. Or any of the Wyrmhold creatures.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
NPC and PC villains are an entirely different sack of potatoes. It's not fair to compare them at all.
One doesn't exclude the other, though.
From what I understood, Soundofastream wants DMs to play (more) from the DM client. However, to a certain degree everyone is doing the same work from the normal client. In particular faction leaders do exactly what soundofastream called for ("memorable villains or good guys"). Why is a DM-possessed NPC faction leader so much better than a DM-played PC in the same position? Because of storytelling and the great secret plot?
NPC and PC villains are an entirely different sack of potatoes. It's not fair to compare them at all.
One doesn't exclude the other, though.
From what I understood, Soundofastream wants DMs to play (more) from the DM client. However, to a certain degree everyone is doing the same work from the normal client. In particular faction leaders do exactly what soundofastream called for ("memorable villains or good guys"). Why is a DM-possessed NPC faction leader so much better than a DM-played PC in the same position? Because of storytelling and the great secret plot?
Regards, Ts
While what you say here is true in some respects, there are also limitations placed on evil or criminal RP by the nature of Amia itself. The ability of just one person to ruin an entire criminal event by respawning and running for help is an often underestimated concern. This is not to say that it happens all the time, simply that it must be planned for. Once bitten, twice stung so to speak.
This is just one example of why it could be helpful to have some nefarious groups run by DMs in something of a DM capacity. A PC that can be picked up by any DM that is online at the time. This is a very slight difference from both a PC and an NPC in that they would have a regular defined character that would allow for a mutable role in plotting and planning that would not be restricted to one 'player'. A hell of a responsibility when you think about it.
_________________ Jess Incognito:- Ah, but the phoenix may fly only when its feathers are grown...
Joined: 18 May 2005 Location: XC HQ Alpha, Sol System, Sirius Sector.
Bah, there are several awesome "evil" villian PC's on Amia.
I think for a server the size of Amia, that the DM's shouldn't have to do very much besides what they do now.
But DM's do need to have fun, too. That's why I've always given the DM's carte blanche on my characters... I'll take whatever's rolled my way because I enjoy it.
I cannot tell you the number of times I got shivers and chills just because a NPC nodded BACK , or said something BACK to Frey when he was in the Merchant Social Club... or Tarkuul.. because you never expected it, so it was =neat= when that happened.
Did they provide me with some epic quest? Or some type of mob to destroy?
Nope. Just said "Hello" back.
Awesome.
It's the little things, you see.
The Incognitos wrote:
While what you say here is true in some respects, there are also limitations placed on evil or criminal RP by the nature of Amia itself. The ability of just one person to ruin an entire criminal event by respawning and running for help is an often underestimated concern. This is not to say that it happens all the time, simply that it must be planned for. Once bitten, twice stung so to speak.
Respectfully, if you haven't planned for that very likely happening, you've:
1.) Not played on Amia for very long
2.) Are a bit naive.
I'm not trying to insult anyone, but for you to be a truly efficient and effective evil PC, you have to be flexible, and adaptive in your plans, with numerous backup plans in place should the first one failz.
I do NOT think it's the DM's role in a persistant world to provide either Good PC's or Bad PCs. That's =our= job, as the PC's. But we must do it the right way... in the spirit of the game, rather than just in the spirit of ME ME ME ME ME.
Regards,
_________________ "Come under the flag of truce, and brook no treason... for mineself is Death, and care not whom knows mine touch."
- Frey Asaid'De Majere
Joined: 18 May 2005 Location: XC HQ Alpha, Sol System, Sirius Sector.
Indeed! Well done, Dramatic!
Regards,
_________________ "Come under the flag of truce, and brook no treason... for mineself is Death, and care not whom knows mine touch."
- Frey Asaid'De Majere
Can someone name any DM run factions that have died out due to low numbers or lack of activity vs PC run ones?
*ducks and braces for it*
_________________ GM "Roll a new sheet, you died for blasphemy." P1 "Was the comment he made that bad?" *dice roll for chart* GM "A Sun elf dry-humping the temple statue of Lloth during worship." P1 "...so new character you say?"
Joined: 11 Nov 2006 Location: A Clean, Well-Lighted Place
Haven't read all of this, so this might be a bit from the side, but I have little to no understanding about the problem. DMs play the environment, ensuring that you can't fully predict the environment's response to your actions.
The kind of control some of you people want over your character and your story makes me think you'd be better of writing books.
_________________ To err is human; to forgive divine, but VENGEANCE IS MINE!
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
To me ...
DMs as DM: They are the gods, the laws of physics, the NPCs. They do what they do to make the game more fun for everyone, and it is a (earned) volunteer position i.e. one that they shouldn't feel they have to do when they don't want to.
DMs as Players: They are players. They have the same right to advancement as any other player.
_________________ 2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
To step up and take the position of DM, the duty to ensure things are running smooth and "fun" is part of their responsibility. Otherwise, why take that position. So, lol..yeah I think its a job they "should" have to do. I mean its their responsibility...right? LOL
If not, then they are just a player of Amia ^_^
_________________ Hard to place any eggs out of one's basket
In spite of being in a position where cynicism could very easily be the rule they've yet to bite our heads off with the things players do in game and on the forums every day. I stand by that this is what makes this DM staff awesome the fact that they can do that.
They can be annoyed as hell at someone yet still, somehow, muster themselves to actually deal with requests from said person without bias.
_________________ Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.
It's much easier to keep secretecy, intiate DM run quests, and get approval for certain actions, when a DM leads a faction. I think most people cannot deny that part of the reason certain factions have remained secert or in power, is because a DM exerts an influence that stops other players from abusing rules or meta-gaming.
It's much easier to run a guild when your a DM. No doubt.
Oh, and then there is the whole "Unconcious biased opinion" thing, accidential abuse of power or such. Always a threat, and always a possability, no matter the person.
Would you accuse even a former DM leading a faction of the same malicious abuse of power?
Possibly, certain information is avaliable to former DM's that isn't avaliable to the general gaming populace. But I don't think the capacity for abuse is quite as high, espically in area's concerning content added after they left the role.
Concerning DMing as a role: I don't know, I've always considered being a DM, on any server, as a responsability and a privliage. As with all things that give you quite a bit of influence and power, you should have responsabilites to hold as well. Yes, these responseabilities may mean you don't enjoy what you do sometimes, and yes, these responseabilities may mean you don't get to do certain things anymore. But I personally see this as the price paid and agreed to when the job was taken. It's possiably why I get a little angry at times, because I feel sometimes some of the DM's want the privlages, but do not want to live up to the responseability. Wither this is actually true or not, I have no idea, but it is how I felt quite a bit of the time when I played on Amia 1. It is part of the reason I left.
I think it's wrong of you to accuse this of any DM on Amia unless you have specific problems with one that you are aware actually did it - and then bring that privately to the DMs....
....but I do think you have a point in that when a DM leads a faction, I have noticed before, there is a tendency for the players underneath to "believe" in their leader more. But... I think all of these symptoms of a DM leading a faction are unconscious ones and are not their fault. Mostly because all of our DMs are outstanding roleplayers and are quite genial OOCly. So they are naturally good faction leaders because they are also naturally good DMs (which is why they are them). I have never seen one abuse their power... I've heard of it... but I don't think the rumors are true. It's just an easy way to vent OOC frustration, so people make these things up.
Worry not: there was no accusation, just Selvec expressing how he feels. He even admits to not knowing whether it's true or not. That's fine.
_________________
On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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