AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

I guess I'll throw in my two bits here and say that "immortality" doesn't mean that you're impervious to all death. Immortals can die, if they're killed. Basically, immortality means that you can't die of old age.

Technically, the pantheon of gods are immortal. And yet, they kill each other. The only thing an immortal can't be killed by is old age.

Prefix Im (Non, un, not) root word Mortal (living, limited, finite) Immortal. Not mortal. Not unbeatable, but not mortal and won't die of old age, and that's about it.

As for my actual input on the topic at hand, yes it's very irritating when people come back after the eighteenth time you've personally killed them. I've killed, quartered and burned characters to ash, only to then see them walking around a couple of hours later. My solution to the problem thus far, outside of just plain ignoring it, is to always ask a few questions in tells or otherwise after I PK someone for any purpose. First, if the two characters have enough of a combat and conflict-marked past, I'll ask if we want to make the outcome a little more serious (i.e. Permadeath, soul entrapment, etc.). The answer is usually no, of course, so then I just request that at the very least, the character come back to the spot where he was killed and remain there until discovered by someone willing to raise him, or at least give that character's playtime a bit of a break for a few days and come up with some backstory of how he/she was raised again.

And yes, I actually have been killed and gone right back to where my character's body was dumped after reset to wait nearly an entire second reset to be discovered and raised again. It's really not all that bad, and it makes for some good RP when you're finally located.

Basically, my only suggestions mechanics-wise to "help" certain griefers to better grasp the concept of death consequences is to somehow store a dead character's location, remove the five-minute auto-respawn and have that person automatically placed back on the ground where he/she died the previous reset. It's not permadeath because if your character is there on the ground, chances are you'll be discovered eventually, and it at least adds some real consequence to being killed. It also would stimulate RP if the character had friends who notice an absence and go out to look for said person, instead of the victim popping back up in town next reset and going, "Oh yeah, I got killed again. Let's go hunt while I conveniently skip the part where I tell you all why I'm alive again."

And I don't even know if that's possible, so... *shrug*

Mr Mago wrote:

One way to add OOC sting (resulting in proper IC precautions) to PvP death is to include the need of resurrection rather than raise dead, in order to be brought back alive.

Aka, you need to find an actual cleric, to do the raising.

Just an idea.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say this much:

If ever you have had any sort of situation where something iffy may have happened during a PvP encounter and can't hash it out with the player for some reason first, (I know it's hard especially in larger scale situations cause your adrenilin is kicked up) don't be afraid to involve the DMs. While yes it might not be fun for them, or anyone involved really if there's been some rulebreaking shenanigans, they ought to be involved.

Also, don't be shy to talk to a senior faction officer if any actual factions are involved who's on scene. The chances are, they're a senior officer because they've been around a while, even if they can't have the clearest picture themselves, having someone on the other side who knows there's concerns helps.

Mr Mago wrote:

One way to add OOC sting (resulting in proper IC precautions) to PvP death is to include the need of resurrection rather than raise dead, in order to be brought back alive.

Aka, you need to find an actual cleric, to do the raising.

Just an idea.

Personally, I think that's one of the many things that two players about to be (or who have just been) involved in PvP with each other, should sort out amongst themselves.

That said, if such was suggested to me in a PvP scenario, I might or might not be willing to go with it. Many factors, including my available playtime, would be involved in such a choice. Bottom line is, I do play this game to have some fun, and my playtime does not always mean that I have time to sit dead for potentially hours, awaiting a raise. Add to that the fact that I'm trying to stop being an alt after alt player, and stick with two mains right now, to try and actually develop them (and as a result I've finally managed to hit level 26 on a pc - the highest level I've ever had a pc on Amia - and I've only been here for 4 1/2 years! Yay me! ), and well, I just can't guarantee I'd always be up for that time-consuming a consequence.

But actual consequences are not needed to rp conflict, even PvP, in a different manner that is more immersiev and less OOC. Personal choices by every player involved are what is necessary. If you THE PLAYER choose to not give a damn about death, regardless of whetehr your pc ICly knows that every time they've died they got back up, then such is your choice. Some of us make the choice to care. That's all it takes.

RuffTuff wrote:

And yes, I actually have been killed and gone right back to where my character's body was dumped after reset to wait nearly an entire second reset to be discovered and raised again. It's really not all that bad, and it makes for some good RP when you're finally located.

player did that once after geting killed in flayers by a NPC and I belive they said a DM yelled at them for wasteing a server slot or something, so laying dead in the middle of no place just might agro a DM.

corypx wrote:

RuffTuff wrote:

And yes, I actually have been killed and gone right back to where my character's body was dumped after reset to wait nearly an entire second reset to be discovered and raised again. It's really not all that bad, and it makes for some good RP when you're finally located.

player did that once after geting killed in flayers by a NPC and I belive they said a DM yelled at them for wasteing a server slot or something, so laying dead in the middle of no place will just might agro a DM.

Eeh... no.

If you're lying dead in a spot, you won't aggro a DM.

Unless that DM is a moron.

Personally I'd prefere a perma-death every single time you die. Been on servers like that before and I loved it *shrug* Feels so much more realistic.. people start actually acting like they should. They fear death, they fear everything thats dangerous just like us, real people. So even "little" things like a wizard being so powerful that he can shapeshift into a bloody dragon! means a lot and makes heads turn.. and thats how it should be. Not "Oh look a lich.. pfft.. " Most of the player base would be simple, common folk.. mortals.. with normal ordinary jobs. Making use of the crafting system. Not 99% demons/devils/glowing eyes/wings/tails. Anything above the ordinary/average would be 'special'. There would be no farming either because if you go into a dungeon for a treasure or XP.. you know the slightest mistake would mean the end. Like in real life. The whole feeling is just so much different, so much more magical. So much more real.If some villain would reach a high level, terorise the lands.. etc. Piss enough people of for them to actually put teir lives at risk and go try to kill him.. he would be remembered. Or the palladin who is well developed, on which a person spent so many hours on, falls in battle with the tyrant.. it would be epic. Not just the oh I failed today.. I'll get the prick next time with my buddies.

Now I know it won't be done, and I'm not saying it should be done. I wish It was that way though =/

But I guess the alternative is something we like more. "I hate that guy ooc, hes a (censored) trigger happy pvper prick. So Im just gonna put all IC asside and piss in his face for all he did to me before. Bring it cause I dont care about death! Ive seen tougher! And my friends will raise me in 5 seconds and I'll be cool cause I didnt give in to the prick's intimidation. And now Ima talk smack about him ooc with all my buddies and laugh at him hahahaha.. that looser prick.."

I know I know 100 people will say ' I never let OOC emotion affect my rp'.. I guess thats why 50 wisdom score druid PC suddenly is stupid enough not to fear death. Its not like its in their best interest to stay alive and save his loved ones and the forest or aything.. who gives a damn about that.. right?

So, if we had permadeath... we'd most likely have no "famous" characters, for in all likelyhood they'd not survice their first attempt at being famous.

I can understand wanting people to respect death more, but in a fantasy game where killing is a daily activity and incorporates rezzing magic to balance it, you really wish it were so? I'm just curious as to your reasoning. I'd think RP would actually suffer in such cases. Why bother putting any thought into your character and having any plans for it, when they can be gone forever on their first day in the world?

I'll tell you what would happen after sometime with permadeath, people would make drow,banite...evil Sorcs hump the job system till they are high level and then go out and perma kill people.

We can be gone forever on our first day here too, in a world where killing is a daily thing.. doesnt stop people from being famous. (real world). Yes there would be famous people and their famousness would be appreciated. There would be a significant drop in pvp because everyone would be risking too much, 'and' because when people see a 7 foot tall dark armoured man in a red glowing sword.. they 'know' they should keep their mouth shut.

And lets not even debate this perma death option because as I said, it will not happen and I'm not saying it should. I just said what I prefere personally.. shoulda probably kept my mouth shut about it.

Hahaha. Yeah, right, permadeath on first kill. If I get to wipe the server vault and ban every single powerbuild first, we could consider that!

Not sure exactly if this could be a possible solution. Also, I have a vague memory of a similar idea, but I am not sure what was the answer from the staff.

Is it possible to make Raise Dead/Resurrection scrolls readable only by divine spellcasters? Perhaps this way people will think better before entering PvP and perhaps this might help in cases like those that Mago faces.

So, yes, the PC can be back after a while. But, hey, good luck finding a divine spellcaster willing to raise you.

Oddly, I'd actually support a complete Wipe, Restart, ban on powerbuilds, BUT Permadeath can more readily happen.

corypx wrote:

I'll tell you what would happen after sometime with permadeath, people would make drow,banite...evil Sorcs hump the job system till they are high level and then go out and perma kill people.

In my opinion the job system in a perma death server should not give XP. Cause were talking about a 'haaaardcore' RP server where you shouldnt .. get dev crit by milking spiders for a week.

Grymia wrote:

Oddly, I'd actually support a complete Wipe, Restart, ban on powerbuilds, BUT Permadeath can more readily happen.

Yep. A wipe would be amazing for Amia. I think. Can't say for sure, really, just a... You know... A gut feeling. Yeah.

We could try it. It's as simple as renaming the server vault folder. Everybody could get back to normal after two weeks time.

The absolute only thing I'd not be perfectly fine with, in such a scenario, would be the loss of dc items. Do they utterly define my characters....no. But it took time to get the dc's for them, because they are fun enhancements.

Nekhy wrote:

We could try it. It's as simple as renaming the server vault folder. Everybody could get back to normal after two weeks time.

What exactly is being proposed?

That would be the tricky part: Perhaps a reimbursement of DCs needed to get the items in that case?

I'd imagine part of teh point would be that everyone is starting on an equal footing, so there'd be no carryover of anything, be it dc's, gold, or items.

O.O I'd be forced to come back and play to see this.

It'd be worth a try buuuuut .... I'd want to have the DCs carry over (along with the DC items and other things, or refunds for them should we decide to make it permanent).

Powerbuilders and powerlevelers would powerlevel back to 30. And those that are not powerbuilders nor powerlevelers nor have enough spare time to spend on the server due to real life would stay at lower levels for a long time.

What about this?

BlackDahlya wrote:

Not sure exactly if this could be a possible solution. Also, I have a vague memory of a similar idea, but I am not sure what was the answer from the staff.

Is it possible to make Raise Dead/Resurrection scrolls readable only by divine spellcasters? Perhaps this way people will think better before entering PvP and perhaps this might help in cases like those that Mago faces.

So, yes, the PC can be back after a while. But, hey, good luck finding a divine spellcaster willing to raise you.

EDIT: Nevermind. I read Nekhy's post too fast. Anyway, even if it is for only two weeks, I fail to see how this could improve the server/players original mentality.

I'd like a month long server wipe. No DC items. DC's yes, but no DC items. Sure you worked on them - but they'd not be relevant on a new character, and if you're just playing your old character... you're boring and a little unimaginative in my opinion

And how the heck would that be fair to those who's actually worked hard for whatever DC items, items or build they have? >_>

Every wrong could be righted. No more epic loot, no more +15 hide/ms cloak, no-solo system, no dev crit or GS or whatever else makes people jump off their seats. Also, could be nice if you could die and respawn until you're level 10, accidents happen when you're too little.

Last edited by Nekhy on Tue, Nov 17 2009, 21:05 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Mr Mago wrote:

Nekhy wrote:

We could try it. It's as simple as renaming the server vault folder. Everybody could get back to normal after two weeks time.

What exactly is being proposed?

Just an idea of trying out a vault wipe, with the plan B of going back.

IF we wiped vaults, refunding DCs would be a possibility, from a certain date, because we got full records of DCs received and used after that date. It goes quite a while back, though not to the very beginning of Amia.

Though, OBVIOUSLY on a trial period nothing would be refunded.

Everyone would make their same PCs with different names, says my gut.

I'd remake my two currently active ones, because I've only very recently started them (or re-started in one case), and they've barely gotten off teh ground, really, but I'm really enjoying them so far.

Gravemaskin wrote:

And how the heck would that be fair to those who's actually worked hard for whatever DC items, items or build they have? >_>

I never said it was FAIR. I said it would be DIFFERENT.

Sometimes Change is good. If it still sucks in a month, just reverse it. All it is, is a few key-strokes, and nobody has posted 'I'll never play here again if you do this' or such.

Experiments are fun!

It does seem to sound interesting to more than one person.

Um yeah.. I'm already hating that idea. I kinda like that people who have old PCs get to keep older gear and so on. The DC items, various builds and whatever. Only thing that really damages PvP is the high rate of scrolls and potions that are around. Although last I heard, I think the scrolls were getting revisited, when used trough umd.

and I'm fairly sure that if a vault wipe was done, several players would up and leave in frustration.

I like the idea of a wipe just for the thought of everything being "reset." Everyone back to start, perhaps do it alongside some kind of event that'd run for as long as the trial. Then when the weeks/month is over, perhaps everyone has gotten so involved with the on-goings of their new characters and the whole new plot, that they actually like it. And if not, it's no harder than going back.

Do you guys honestly think that this could work?

It is a problem of mentality. There will always be a player who will act the way those players mentioned by Mago would.

What needs changing is the individual's personality and I am unsure if a server wipe, no matter how tentative and how temporary it is, will change that.

Besides, knowing that it is only for two weeks or two months, they will behave, but when things are back to normal, they will likely remain as they were before the tentative wipe.

Or if things are not back to normal, they will complain, saying "But you promised it was a test and not permanent".

It wasn't really an idea to fix the problem discussed here, except in the permanent form it could be. We're just going off the tangent here!

It's certainly no realistic solution to anything. It might be a fun experiment (though I probably wouldn't play in the meantime; I don't have the time and interest to get involved with anything than my current plot that's just starting to take wing), but it's rather utopistic to think it would actually solve any major issues.

Gravemaskin wrote:

Um yeah.. I'm already hating that idea. I kinda like that people who have old PCs get to keep older gear and so on. The DC items, various builds and whatever. Only thing that really damages PvP is the high rate of scrolls and potions that are around. Although last I heard, I think the scrolls were getting revisited, when used trough umd.

and I'm fairly sure that if a vault wipe was done, several players would up and leave in frustration.

This.

Which goes back to my own post a few lines above:

What if the use of Raise Dead/Resurrection/Healing scrolls of any sort was only allowed by divine spellcasters, with the necessary levels to cast that spell?

What does this accomplish? And how is this related to the OP?

Many of us can get to level 30 in 3 days. There are some that can take 3 years. I think all you'd be doing is pissing a bunch of people off.

Mimiron wrote:

Many of us can get to level 30 in 3 days. There are some that can take 3 years. I think all you'd be doing is pissing a bunch of people off.

Which is exactly what'd you'd do with an entire server wipe.

Keep the cost for raise scrolls, levelled to your level. That way low levels can still go get some and get raised when they die, while level 30's will still also feel the same sting that the lowbies feel, when thy have to go buy scrolls for their fallen friends.

and removing heal potions all together solves the biggest problem in current PvPing. If it's not insta-kill stuff, long duration disabling stuff.. or repeated knockdowns.. then it's not going to make you win. Ever. People get a single round, they can click that heal potion, and you're back to basics.

And it won't impact levelling people too much, since most can't affoard them. And it'd make the heal skill more popular. as well as clerics whom actually cast healing spells, not falling back on potions.

The idea of this would be starting fresh with a permadeath rule. So no Mimiron, there is no way youll get to 30 in 3 days IF youll get to 30 -at all-. And yes this solves a major problem.. people would be more responsibe when it comes to death Nobody wants their character to die permamently, so theyd watch their (censored) mouth and there wouldnt be so much killing and BS.

If it were actually to implement permadeath I find you'd be losing alot of players. Maybe getting more to come though. *Shrugs.* I know I'm not really sound with the idea of it.

Im fine with loosing all my characters/gold/DCs/Accounts Ive worked so hard on, if only we would get people to fear DEATH as they should do.

Riddle wrote:

The idea of this would be starting fresh with a permadeath rule. So no Mimiron, there is no way youll get to 30 in 3 days IF youll get to 30 -at all-. And yes this solves a major problem.. people would be more responsibe when it comes to death Nobody wants their character to die permamently, so theyd watch their (censored) mouth and there wouldnt be so much killing and BS.

I am strongly opposed to enforced permadeath

Hence why I said at the start, not to even discuss this because there are too many people who would be against this.

But it is he only and best way as I see it, to keep the people from playing fearless immortal heroes. In the world of permadeath heros are heros. Courage is courage. Fame is fame. etc etc.. everything is what they should be. Instead of the world we have today where nothing is appreciated.

Riddle wrote:

Im fine with loosing all my characters/gold/DCs/Accounts Ive worked so hard on, if only we would get people to fear DEATH as they should do.

You'd be willing to trade all of that, your own stories and the stories of other for that? For reaslism in a fantasy game?

Taking it for what it is, I find most of this "treat death like it should be treated" a lot of waste. It's not the same "death" that applies in our world. Perhaps we should stop looking at it like that and expecting a game setting with magic and monsters to reflect our views of the real world perfectly.

IronAngel wrote:

It's certainly no realistic solution to anything. It might be a fun experiment (though I probably wouldn't play in the meantime; I don't have the time and interest to get involved with anything than my current plot that's just starting to take wing), but it's rather utopistic to think it would actually solve any major issues.

Ah never said it would. I just want to blankslate Amia and see what grows out the cracks in the concrete.

I had a thought of kind of a midway point between immortality and permadeath that you could have so many lives per week, or month, which would be refreshed every so often (not sure on the rates, I dont know how often most people die... it could even be linked to level, I guess).

It wouldn't exactly be permadeath, but if you were running low, you would have to rethink your playing strategy. If you were down to your last life (which would probably take some recklessness) you could always log and not play till you got topped up. If you didnt, and you ran out of lives, well... tough.

Last edited by Selmak on Tue, Nov 17 2009, 22:31 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Maybe a less radical approach would be to run a third server with a limited player count. However it would need its own vault for that sort of test to work properly.

There are pros and cons of course to giving players the choice between a premadeath and non-permadeath environment. The players that you really need to try it out might not, for example.

I'd also suggest a lower level cap for a module with permadeath, as chances are most characters won't get past level 5 before being toasted, stabbed, or thrown off a cliff, and it doesn't make sense for players to lose thirty levels of progress just on the roll of the combat dce.

Finally, this is obviously just a test to see if players and characters will act any differently. Maybe if there are lessons to be learned, then you can move forward without everyone having their characters wiped.

Theres not much in between "live forever" and permadeath that makes any sense. The latter needs a total overhaul of server culture in so many ways I doubt we see that on Amia. Theres other servers for hardcore like that.

Didi wrote:

I had a thought of kind of a midway point between immortality and permadeath that you could have so many lives per week, or month, which would be refreshed every so often (not sure on the rates, I dont know how often most people die... it could even be linked to level, I guess).

It wouldn't exactly be permadeath, but if you were running low, you would have to rethink your playing strategy. If you were down to your last life (which would probably take some recklessness) you could always log and not play till you got topped up. If you didnt, and you ran out of lives, well... tough.

Actually, I think you could take this idea and not include permadeath at all, but rather temporary death? Let's say you have X lives a week. You die more than that, you're just stuck in Fugue until next Monday.

You take your life(lives) seriouly then. You get killed enough, your char won't be showing up for a while. But not permakilled, just taken out of the picture for a while.

That's at least my solution to this "problem". I find the idea of permadeath utterly lacking logic, when the gameworld was only made so horrible, violent and death-filled because of the assumption that the heroes would eventually be able to get up after dying and go home to train.

Mortality and You.

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