AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

*steps up to the podium*

Ahem. Since the argument appears to be going around in circles, I'd just like to point something out.

I think that what we can all agree on here is that there's no single solution that everybody approves of. This doesn't mean there's no solution, it just means that it's up to us as players to make up the difference, rather than making the DMs do it for us. In other words, communicate with people and don't make assumptions about how the other person will/should react to the conflict!

I suggest that a person should establish a set of basic RP rules with the others involved before they get into killing or fighting each other, and then nobody will complain or quit if they lose because everyone expects the same thing. We clearly can't make everyone happy with global rules, so use your brains and work out something that everyone agrees with before getting angry at each other because people don't RP the way we want them to.

Personally, I think that that makes WAY more sense than changing the rules, adding penalties for death or other methods of trying to force people to co-operate with each other. Most players I know on Amia are quite flexible with their RP and open to negotiating with; I see no reason why a little bit of discussion beforehand between rational, intelligent people can't solve most problems.

And if you don't like what the other person wants to RP, just don't RP with each other. It's not going to kill either of you (pun not intended), and nobody is going to walk away feeling like they just got cheated. After all, we're all here for different reasons, but the bottom line is that we want to have fun. You shouldn't let OOC stuff drag you down, so if you can't agree on what's fair with another player then just don't play with them.

There's plenty of other people out there after all.

Mr Mago wrote:

GP cost to cast + Shortened duration for GS.

That seems yummy-yummy to me.

Or maybe add an obscenely expensive material component for casting it, like Timestop and IGMS have. That would be nice...

Yeah, I know. It's a divine spell, granted by the deity, clerics don't have spell components, rada rada rada.

Neither do Sorcerers, and they still have to shell out the thirty grand for the Sands of Time.

Anyone?

Last edited by Gravemaskin on Wed, Nov 18 2009, 7:37 AM, edited 1 time in total.

TormakSaber wrote:

My issue with removing heal potions from the PvM scene is it doesn't hurt casters one tick but it makes anyone not a caster have to follow casters like little puppydogs.

Well right now heal potions are easily making every build out there with more than 300 hp, 60 Discipline and 41 fort pretty much win every time, except when it's a deadlock between the two, both waiting for a dev or 1 roll. I've seen casters with high AC/fort/Discipline, meleers, clerics etc etc. Especially rdd/pms benefit from it, since they pretty much -have- to be killed with either keeping them from healpotioning or bigby spamming. (thanks to that fun fun immunity to stun and holds and so on).

So if we find some sort of way to nerf the people doing that, including the casters. (or maybe most of all, the casters), that'd be awesome.

Problem is actually thinking up a sollution. Pointing out the problems is the easy part.

Throwing up a sands of time type thing for GS would definatly shank it some. Make each casting including scrolls, burn up a component for 10,000 gold. In the beginning, people will probably be like "so what?" but eventually, they'll start being more careful. And prices can always be upped, if it's not doing the job.

RuffTuff wrote:

Yeah, I know. It's a divine spell, granted by the deity, clerics don't have spell components, rada rada rada.

Neither do Sorcerers, and they still have to shell out the thirty grand for the Sands of Time.

You're wrong. Spells with components require them no matter what class is casting them ... Raise Dead is a cleric spell with components, Tasha's Hideous Laughter a Soceror, Wizard and Bard spell with spell components, Restoaration is a Cleric and Paladin spell with spell components, Owl's Wisdom is Wizard, Sorceror, Druid, Paladin, Cleric and Ranger with owl component ... and I believe that is every casting class.

I wouldn't add an actual component (as in an item), in order to cast GS, for the simple reason that we're trying to keep down character file sizes.

Adding a gp cost would prove to be a huge gold sink, by itself. 5000 gp per cast? Makes you think twice before you throwing off 5 GS during a boss hunt.

How about removing raise scrolls all together then, so only those who get it trough spells can cast it. (or those clerics, with scribe scroll) BUT add a service in all temples to raise people, if you write their names out to the cleric and pay a fee? No more mid combat raising, unless you're a caster who can actually do that. And whoever's dead, is raised in the local temple, for a fee.
edit:
And without the ability to say.. go into combat for a while, thanks to some sort of supernatural daze effect that lasts for 4-5 minutes, even trough mindblanks?

Gravemaskin wrote:

How about removing raise scrolls all together then, so only those who get it trough spells can cast it. BUT add a service in all temples to raise people, if you write their names out to the cleric and pay a fee? No more mid combat raising, unless you're a caster who can actually do that.

I approve.

Last edited by xordae on Wed, Nov 18 2009, 7:55 AM, edited 1 time in total.

I don't agree with putting a money cost on GS. After all, you WANT people to be smart about it and not die. GS is usually a safety belt when something goes wrong. It's already been altered so you can't GS and pull out high-level summons.

However.. if it's made so a temple guy can raise fallen comrades, slap a hefty gold sum on THAT. 5-10k at least.

Edit: Actually nevermind that last paragraph. This just gives the issue a new name. Instead of "who has scrolls?" it's going to be "who goes to the temple?". Proper solution: NPCs can't raise either.

Last edited by RuffTuff on Wed, Nov 18 2009, 7:57 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Yurell wrote:

RuffTuff wrote:

Yeah, I know. It's a divine spell, granted by the deity, clerics don't have spell components, rada rada rada.

Neither do Sorcerers, and they still have to shell out the thirty grand for the Sands of Time.

You're wrong. Spells with components require them no matter what class is casting them ... Raise Dead is a cleric spell with components, Tasha's Hideous Laughter a Soceror, Wizard and Bard spell with spell components, Restoaration is a Cleric and Paladin spell with spell components, Owl's Wisdom is Wizard, Sorceror, Druid, Paladin, Cleric and Ranger with owl component ... and I believe that is every casting class.

Partially true. Yes, clerics do have components for higher-level spells, but they're called "focuses" rather than "components". Sorcerers, to my knowledge, don't have a use for spell components, as they derive their spell power from innate ability and bloodlines. I don't generally play PnP Druids or Paladins, but I'm relatively sure that along with their natural ability to spontaneously cast spells without prior preparation, and their lack of need for a component pouch, Sorcerers don't need components to cast.

Edit: Actually, I stand corrected. Though it doesn't directly mention it anywhere, the standard default Sorcerer starting package includes a spell component pouch as basic gear.

Whaddyaknow. I admit my error.

RuffTuff wrote:

Partially true. Yes, clerics do have components for higher-level spells, but they're called "focuses" rather than "components". Sorcerers, to my knowledge, don't have a use for spell components, as they derive their spell power from innate ability and bloodlines. I don't generally play PnP Druids or Paladins, but I'm relatively sure that along with their natural ability to spontaneously cast spells without prior preparation, and their lack of need for a component pouch, Sorcerers don't need components to cast.

A focus and a component are two completely different things. A material component is an item (or items) used in the spell that is consumed in the process of casting it. A focus is not consumed.

Example: Raise Dead
"Material Component: Diamonds worth a total of least 5,000 gp."

I have not been able to find any reference of sorcerers being exempt from the rules stated in the spells.

Note edited post above.

Fortunately that helps your contention

Although I disagree with the component idea for the reasons Mago stated

Mr Mago wrote:

I wouldn't add an actual component (as in an item), in order to cast GS, for the simple reason that we're trying to keep down character file sizes.

Yurell wrote:

Although I disagree with the component idea for the reasons Mago stated

Can we apply this concept to timestop+IGMS sometime? and make dust components sell-able back to merchant at the fair 30k or so price they bought it at?

..really every other mage has a bag or two full of these. Make the cost automatic?

Because it's fun making you waste weight and inventory space on it. Nevermind filesize.

TormakSaber wrote:

Because it's fun making you waste weight and inventory space on it. Nevermind filesize.

Oh yes, 1lb on those bags of holding, dear me oh my you've got me now!

...not.

Azrael wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Because it's fun making you waste weight and inventory space on it. Nevermind filesize.

Oh yes, 1lb on those bags of holding, dear me oh my you've got me now!

...not.

You're still wasting entire bags of holding on light weight components, and probably often have to check to see how many you got left.. I'd say that's a good thing. ACtually make mages have to keep track of spells beyond simply looking at the hotbars.

Gravemaskin wrote:

Azrael wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Because it's fun making you waste weight and inventory space on it. Nevermind filesize.

Oh yes, 1lb on those bags of holding, dear me oh my you've got me now!

...not.

You're still wasting entire bags of holding on light weight components, and probably often have to check to see how many you got left.. I'd say that's a good thing. ACtually make mages have to keep track of spells beyond simply looking at the hotbars.

Ok fine, pour on the bags and bags of GS items that will be required to cast the spell if that is the motivation, just don't yell at people when their character files are in the roof as a result of it.

Yurell wrote:

Although I disagree with the component idea for the reasons Mago stated

This.

What...

A mage might actually have to -tactically consider their spell components-?

Oh No.

Btw, it isn't an excuse for file sizes. You play a mage, then deal with the fact that more of your filesize limit (which equates to inventory limit) is going to have to be dedicated to components.

Or just set a limit to all of them, so no one can have more than say.. ten. at any given time. It'll keep the point of it, no matter how much money people have. Limiting the use to a certain number, OR whatever they can affoard. Not let people have 60 components in bags, just because they're rich.

..you just gave me a random idea.

Heal. Still heals 100% health. Still usable freely.

Will only work once every turn (10 rounds) on a given target, including when spell-cast.

Mirha!

Sorry, random.

I like it! Do what 1Worn said! ...Please. Limited heal drinking would do wonders for PvP and the whining that comes with it. So what if PvM gets to need a tad more tactics, people need a freakin' challenge.

WonWon wrote:

..you just gave me a random idea.

Heal. Still heals 100% health. Still usable freely.

Will only work once every turn (10 rounds) on a given target, including when spell-cast.

Mirha!

Sorry, random.

<3

I also would approve of Wons Idea

Makes the heal skill a valuable alternative.

Limited castings of heal.

Death sends you to fugue and drops a corpse where you died which can be raised by a cleric or taken and carried to the temple where the priest would perform a resurection for a fixed price. Perhaps make the cleric raise muuuch more expensive so it doesnt pay of to raise the guy in middle of pvp, and only do so if there is a must. The corpse could weigh something like 500 lbs due to all equipement and fat butts so chances are your buddy would struggle dragging you there and might just drag you into a bush and run to get help from a strong brute to carry you. Would keep people from coming back to PVP for long enough for the pvp to end and everyone to clear the area.

Corpse spawn and you in fugue would fix problems with the irritating 'ooc raise' and the dead guy just standing there and listening to your plans ooc.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

First off, if you know that your character only has a set number of lives to lose before s/he is done forever, you're going to be a lot more careful when leveling them

Ahh, so you let OOC taint the IC.

I think it's still IC. If you were strictly IC, you'd be completely surprised if you came back at all.

Let's say the number of lives you get if you chose the option is 5, just for arguments sake. 1st life, run about, something happens, dead. Character comes back to life thinking, "Wow, I'm alive again. I better be pretty careful it might not happen again." 2nd life, run about, something happens, dead. Character comes back to life thinking, "Wow, I'm alive again. That's twice now. I should really be more careful with what I'm doing. I may not get this lucky again." All the while, the player is being more and more careful because the lives of their character are running out and the character is getting more and more careful because s/he doesn't want to push his/her luck.

How about instead of a optional 5 lives then your permed, which players then complain more when killed in PvP because they only have a limited amount of lives, to give the option of each time they die there is a 1% chance their character will be perm killed? 1% chance is not much but can happen at any time and that not knowing if its your time or not would indeed be allot more scary going into battle.

I would also agree to some type of exp bonus for choosing that option as well since those who choose it are less likely to take the high risk adventuring so would level slower as well. Perhaps make the job system more valuable and useful as well for these players choosing such a rout.

WonWon wrote:

What...

A mage might actually have to -tactically consider their spell components-

Only the most tyrannical DM in PNP makes you keep track of your bat guano. Don't be an ass.

Theres a difference between keeping track of half an ounce of Bat Guano and a pinch of Sulphur, and keeping track of something which is substantially more valuable spell components.

Correct. Bat guano is a general spell component from a store-bought component pouch with a relatively unlimited supply that is unnecessary for bookeeping. Most DMs don't bother with it.

There are specific spell components, however, that have a significant material cost that even average PNP DMs have you keep track of unless they're big old pussies and give weak-minded little you a soft, cuddly game. Such as a 100gp pearl for the Identify spell. Which is what you pay for in Amia when you take it to the shopkeep and need it identified, btw, if you can'd identify it yourself.

EDIT: Otherwise, I really have nothing to say about this entire topic. It is a problem that stems from emotional vices that require a degree of maturity to remedy.

Why does the crap of an oyster know what something is if you don't? :p

Godo wrote:

How about instead of a optional 5 lives then your permed, which players then complain more when killed in PvP because they only have a limited amount of lives, to give the option of each time they die there is a 1% chance their character will be perm killed? 1% chance is not much but can happen at any time and that not knowing if its your time or not would indeed be allot more scary going into battle.

I was actually thinking of suggesting that. It is a great idea in my opinion but if it is implemented I'd like everyone to have it. Not those that choose it, because 'nobody' would choose it. And it is really not worth the sacrifice for better xp either..

Would be awesome if everyone had 1% chance to perma die every time in pvp but not pvm because in pvm people crash a lot and all sorts of random accidents happen.

No.

I will -not- play a server where months of work would have a % Chance of getting nullified becaus -another- play kills you.

You do realise this -will- cause serious anger problems and HATE Occ?

1% chance is not really low.

Oh, it might sound low, it might sound as if it couldn't happen to you.

But the Random Number God can be hateful sometimes and then you get the 1% roll and you die.

And as Muspel said, it will cause issues because when you meet someone who is just there for pvp and who attacks you with no reason at all that you can die, and if you do, then its a big loss for you, but only a small for him if he gets caught.
Sure, a DM could revive you, but where draw the line then? What proof do they need that you just didn't die and want a free revive that way to get out of the situation?
So they most probably won't do it. Well, yeah, sucks to be you then with your character you just lost and on whom you spend months or years of work.
I know for sure that I'd quit if something like that would happen to me, and I have been in a few situations where something like that happened.

I agree to hellscourge and myself.

If you want to invent a rule with 1% Permachance, sure.

But you'll loose a VAST amount of players i recon.

No one will ever take permadeath in any form as a viable option. Ever.

Did I say that out loud? Oh well. Anway, on a sidenote with the spell components, as I see that as the only thing viable at this point in the topic, let me suggests that IGMS have its components removed, but the GP still taken upon casting. All having them as physical components does is just encourage mages to grab half a dozen bags of holding and stock up, never running out anyway. It's always assumed casters have "just enough" of every other component, even if its expensive, as long as they have the gold. And I don't wanna hear "B-but then spammages will pwn melee even moah!", because any mage that is planning to ever spam is already packing enough mage feathers to do so frequently and upping filesize already.

Im not saying lets implement permadeath.
However.. wouldnt it be nice that death lasted either a reset or two.. or my corpse suggestion above?

You don't want to prohibit people from RPing by keeping them dead. You don't want to perma characters because there are some pretty old characters on here and everyone likes his DC-bought stuff and etc. You don't want a fugue plane that repeats itself every time you die, either.

That kinda leaves not so many choices. Having to go and find a Priest somewhere to raise your friend while the rest of the party camps is the most involving one.

Riddle wrote:

Im not saying lets implement permadeath.
However.. wouldnt it be nice that death lasted either a reset or two.. or my corpse suggestion above?

I can agree with that. My suggestion was similiar, but only have it activated by an option on the PvP widget, rather than the norm. Since it's the winner who decides if the dead person is KO or -really- dead anyway, they get to decide.

Incoporating both our ideas then, you'd have a widget to use on your beaten enemy, signifying "Significant PvP Death". A timer starts. It would send them to Fugue, where they'd stay, and a corspe would spawn. The winner/whoever can then either leave the body or try to drag it off and emote whatever horrible little torture etc they want on it for the time. If no one comes to find the body or the finds the person with the Corpse in that time, the character is not allowed to respawn for 1 reset, including the remainder of that particular server run.

That said, only allow this "Significant PvP Death" to be used once or twice per reset, to discourage griefing, but if you beat two of your mortal enemies in an epic battle or something, you can take care of both. Have it only activatable on the same character once per week. As in, you can only kill a particular person in this way once per week.

An added bonus of this system would allow people who want to torture/sacrifice/etc on an inanimate corpse. I'd still say you have to ask permission before posting the story of actually torturing someone's PC online, but you can do it just fine. After all... who wants to hang around how their character gets mutilated? o.O

OR. Make players have a pick-up-able player corpse that you can CARRY around to someone else to have them ICly raise you. (No raise scrolls) And have NPC's able to do it, by paying them a formula like 500*CLVL.

Might bring some RP too, carrying around bodies and stuff.

Not a revolutionary idea, but the old server I played on had it.

Plus side to this, is that the person actually gets raised -away- from the conflict, and hopefully can cool down.

Another option, for hostile PvP Deaths would to be to have an option to make them respawn at their portal #1 slot or something.

Just an idea. Gets rid of the OOC raise problem.

Yossarin wrote:

Correct. Bat guano is a general spell component from a store-bought component pouch with a relatively unlimited supply that is unnecessary for bookeeping. Most DMs don't bother with it.

In fact, even the PHB says that if you have a spell components pouch, just ignore anything under the cost of 1 GP. But while we're on the topic of PnP comparisons, I'd like to point out the Timestop only has a verbal component ... that could be your solution to the raise dead problem, make raise dead need the components it's actually supposed to have.

I mean, there were complaints to make raise more expensive or remove it, giving it spell components stops every Tom, D!ck and Harry from using it without significant preparations (since AFAIK Amian spells with components need the components even when cast from scrolls, which they shouldn't) and even Joe Bloe cleric needs to b ready, just like a mage with Issac's or TS.

Edit: FFS D!ck is a name, a fairly common name, get over it you bloody swear filter.

WonWon wrote:

..you just gave me a random idea.

Heal. Still heals 100% health. Still usable freely.

Will only work once every turn (10 rounds) on a given target, including when spell-cast.

Mirha!

Sorry, random.

I actually like that idea, a cooldown on raises would work as well, eliminating Darths raisefest every time he PvP's.

Although the OC still sounds like a cover for being a powerebuild and not getting respect IC, OOC, or personally. Welcome to the club, you have played long enough to know better, but people keep indulging you. Have you ever tried using the in game tools to help you and others you RP with have something besides your IC and OOC reputation to RP off of. Like maybe a intimidate roll? No? Forgot that on your cheese build? Bummer.

I kinow from my own experience that even with IC reputations I'm unwilling to backdown unless I have more than someone in black trying to insult me. It's insulting to have a character who may or not be a hero in their own right be swayed by some cheese build who can only back up threats by being a PvP build.

There have been some very good points brought up in this thread, though extreme measures like mandatory permadeath likely won't work. After all, there is no mass exodus to Arelith.

xordae wrote:

You don't want to prohibit people from RPing by keeping them dead. You don't want a fugue plane that repeats itself every time you die, either.

That kinda leaves not so many choices. Having to go and find a Priest somewhere to raise your friend while the rest of the party camps is the most involving one.

Exactly why you wouldnt wanna die, which is the point. Or do you suggest we make the death as pleasant as possible, which is the opposite of what everyone is talking about?

Mimiron wrote:

OR. Make players have a pick-up-able player corpse that you can CARRY around to someone else to have them ICly raise you. (No raise scrolls) And have NPC's able to do it, by paying them a formula like 500*CLVL.

Might bring some RP too, carrying around bodies and stuff.

Not a revolutionary idea, but the old server I played on had it.

Plus side to this, is that the person actually gets raised -away- from the conflict, and hopefully can cool down.

Another option, for hostile PvP Deaths would to be to have an option to make them respawn at their portal #1 slot or something.

Just an idea. Gets rid of the OOC raise problem.

Read the thread. You said what I said almost word for word.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Riddle wrote:

Im not saying lets implement permadeath.
However.. wouldnt it be nice that death lasted either a reset or two.. or my corpse suggestion above?

I can agree with that. My suggestion was similiar, but only have it activated by an option on the PvP widget, rather than the norm. Since it's the winner who decides if the dead person is KO or -really- dead anyway, they get to decide.

Incoporating both our ideas then, you'd have a widget to use on your beaten enemy, signifying "Significant PvP Death". A timer starts. It would send them to Fugue, where they'd stay, and a corspe would spawn. The winner/whoever can then either leave the body or try to drag it off and emote whatever horrible little torture etc they want on it for the time. If no one comes to find the body or the finds the person with the Corpse in that time, the character is not allowed to respawn for 1 reset, including the remainder of that particular server run.

That said, only allow this "Significant PvP Death" to be used once or twice per reset, to discourage griefing, but if you beat two of your mortal enemies in an epic battle or something, you can take care of both. Have it only activatable on the same character once per week. As in, you can only kill a particular person in this way once per week.

An added bonus of this system would allow people who want to torture/sacrifice/etc on an inanimate corpse. I'd still say you have to ask permission before posting the story of actually torturing someone's PC online, but you can do it just fine. After all... who wants to hang around how their character gets mutilated? o.O

Good idea but impossible. Will never work. Just because fights are almost never 1 vs 1 and if you kill 20 people and have to run from the remaining few then what can be done? Stop running, and type "wait I gotta set them to 'very dead'" while you get hit from all sides?

Everyone wants to hang around while something is done to their character because people who loose are like hawks. They look at you with googly eyes O.O and read over the rules 100 times just to be absolutely sure they didnt miss any rule that you even remotely broke, or almost did.

I think you're missing the point. Darth is not only a crazy PvP build, but also RPd as one of the nastiest people around. His reputation IC is intimidating. o

You don't like your hero getting scared by a PvP build, fair enough, but make sure you don't forget that ontop of that, IC, there is a huge and nasty reputation behind him. That is what your character should be scared/intimidated by.

..and never is.

SacredOak wrote:

I think you're missing the point. Darth is not only a crazy PvP build, but also RPd as one of the nastiest people around. His reputation IC is intimidating. o

You don't like your hero getting scared by a PvP build, fair enough, but make sure you don't forget that ontop of that, IC, there is a huge and nasty reputation behind him. That is what your character should be scared/intimidated by.

Not missing the point, and what you say is true. Perhaps I didn't go far enough and spell it out...

The situation it this: It's all metagamming on some level. When someone is an arse in RL, an arse on a forum, an arse IC, and is well known for having great contempt for anyone elses opinions, it is virtually immposible to not bear all that in mind when interacting IC.

The whole concept of death in a fantasy game online is a metagamming licence to every player. The only way to fix players from using player knowledge to help their character IC is to micromanage the experience to such an extent that Amia becomes Arelith, not the more relaxed playing experience that has survived for several years.

As well the combat log usually says 'knocked out' in PvP. If no one is clear to the status of the status of combatants in PvP, before, during, and after PvP, then it's your own fault for being clear and specific. Is it so hard to spend thirty seconds before PvP, like when you ask if everyones OK with PvP, to state the dispositionand status of those that fall so that there is no raisefest and unending heal chugging that seems to piss off poor Darthy? It also gives players time to concider the IC consequnses of their actions and act accordingly.

But I'll stand pat on my previous statement, just having an IC reputation that can only be backed up by a cheese PvP build is lame. As far as I can tell the only thing Darthions epic reputation confers is the fact he can uberpwn in PvP, not much IC respect to be had there.

Quote:

As far as I can tell the only thing Darthions epic reputation confers is the fact he can uberpwn in PvP, not much IC respect to be had there.

It's more the opposite. Darthion has done so ridiculously much, WITHOUT the build that in order to even half ass maintain the IC rep he's garnered through non PVP RP, he has to have as streamlined and tweaked a build as possible. It's a minor catch-22. He has the buiuld because everyone, everyday, wants to kill him dead, and he has to defend himself. This is aside from the PvP that is sometimes started by him, yes, but the self defense clause comes in much more often, speaking as a DM who enjoys watching PvP.

If you don't think the character is deserving on any amount of IC respect, you're probably either new to Amia or a member of 2 very specific factions, tbh.

I oocly have known of Darthion and his rep for years.

I IC have met him I think once.

I IC have NEVER heard anyone talk about him. Ever. Not once. In years of playing and dming.

So, Darthion's IC reputation to me: Nonexistant, except insofar as I know him to be a banite due to being pretty public about it with posters and auctions and such, as posted on the forums.

So IF I found myself in potential pvp with him, I have nothing more to be scared of that I would anyone else. I don't IC know his combat capabilities. I don't IC know if he'd beat me or not. OOC, I can virtually guarantee he'd wipe the floor with me. IC...the only reason I'd have to feel fear - and it really would more likely be apprehension than fear - would be of the possibility that maybe, despite my dark power, I may potentially lose. And THAT apprehension/fear, is only because I as a player make the personal choice to consider death (or possible death) as meaning something, as being potentially permanent, or potentially having permanent affects. Not to mention likely being painful.

No ooc mechanic is going to change that I as a player must make that choice. Any chance of permadeath would either make me leave the server, or become a complete carebear, who would never get into pvp, and might take up a job as a farmer, because I as a PLAYER am not good enough with builds, and game-mechanic knowledge, to fight as efficiently as my CHARACTER would be able to.

While I support things liek adding a timer to heal spells/potions, or reducing/removing raise scrolls, that's because I feel they hurt immersion, and that I feel teh changes would enhance and promote rp. Not because I think that would force PLAYERS to suddenly make a choice about how to treat death, differently than they did before the change.

I have an idea. When a player character dies, they ascend to a higher plane of existence, blah blah, blippity blah, and after much deliberation they decide that the higher plane thing isn't for them, at which point they return to a corporeal state. Nekkid.

Just kidding.

You know what, conflict between player characters may play a big role on your server, but if it leads to smartassery and crap roleplaying then you should just put a stop to it, at least until you can get the situation under control. Then there will be no eight pages of barely readable discussion on character mortality and the behaviour of players. There will however be lots of posts about bringing back PvP.

It does give players a chance to play without conflict jumping in and rearing its uglier head, and does give us all more time to think about solutions, because there is just no way that it's going to go away. Well, not unless you just jump in and ban players for the day every time they make an IC conclusion from OOC information, which is somewhat harsher than some of the other measures mentioned above.

No server wipe, no nerfing this, no tweaking that, just no engine-initiated PvP. Can you survive that? Probably. I daresay you will find other ways to engineer conflict than just the threat of physical or magical violence.

I think what this boils down to is that there are two types of people in the game world: people who can roleplay respectably, and people who can't. Keeping in mind that these two archetypes can be separated into many different fractions and grouplings, it's the gist of it.

Role playing is supposed to be exactly what the name implies: playing a role. When some people RP a character, they mentally assume the identity of the character. They see what the character sees, take things from the character's perspective according to its unique personality and background, and in some cases, even feel what the character feels. This is role playing at its best, and it's good.

Then there are those who just see it as controlling a little fighter on the screen. The mindset is less of immersion into the character and the scenario, but more of a "Player 1" mindset which might be more suited for Halo or Half-Life or something. To some people, it doesn't matter how big and bad and threatening your character is, or the fact that your build can tear them limb from limb like a ragdoll. All that matters to them is that they're playing a video game, and they don't run out of lives.

With this in mind, Neverwinter Nights (even Amia) is a game. Gamers play here. Role players play here. Therefore, it's only natural that while certain people offer good RP and understand IC consequences and respect IC reputations and death and the like, there are also those "Player 1" gamers who just don't care, as well as those who are somewhere in between and just can't stand to have their little avatar of awesomeness destroyed because of IC interactions.

(Notably, if you can't cope with your character being beaten, killed, mocked or otherwise belittled and destroyed, Neverwinter Nights and D&D are probably not the games for you...)

What I'm getting at here is that while you can come up with a hundred and one solutions to crack down on the bad ones, all the decisions have an effect on the good ones as well. Why punish the "Player 1" gamers who don't care if it's also going to effect the role players who do? I think it might just be better to compromise and just accept that people will be people, RPers will be RPers, Player 1's will be Player 1's. If someone pops off that they'll just be back again, it's relatively easy to ignore. Just ignore the Player 1's and find some real RPers to interact with instead.

RuffTuff wrote:

What I'm getting at here is that while you can come up with a hundred and one solutions to crack down on the bad ones, all the decisions have an effect on the good ones as well. Why punish the "Player 1" gamers who don't care if it's also going to effect the role players who do? I think it might just be better to compromise and just accept that people will be people, RPers will be RPers, Player 1's will be Player 1's. If someone pops off that they'll just be back again, it's relatively easy to ignore. Just ignore the Player 1's and find some real RPers to interact with instead.

Ignoring godgamers is one solution, but if there is a possibility of establishing a rule that makes it even harder for people to godgame, then I'm all for it.

I do happen to like the idea of spawning a corpse when you die and your character goes to the fugue plane. It would be extremely interesting if everyone went to the same area based on alignment or something. I can just see two people sitting in the fugue going,

"So, what you in here for?"
"Well, you know that big guy in black with the thing on his face that hangs around Cordor?"
"Yeah."
"Don't call him a tree-licker."

Mortality and You.

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