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There are Chaonds and Zenythiri which are chaotic and lawful outsiders descendants respectively, the additions to tiefling and aasimar.

Request needed.

lore on tuigans, barbarian tribes, spirits, totems and stuff pretty please?

Tuigan, Taan and for the tribes, I'd suggest looking up for information about Uthgar. However, the information found from FR wiki I deemed too worthless to even post here. You're best off asking someone with the Faiths & Pantheons putting some stuff here. Best source for Tuigans and Taan would be the region specialised books, but I'd say you can manage with the regular Forgotten Realms edition.

I have two Horde PDFS, one is a campaign setting and the other a history of the Tuigan Wars for campaign use. The Horde cs was/is available on the WotC site for free: if you know the direct download link, it's still there, but since the site was revamped the actual download index page is gone. So you'll have to see if anyone knows the link, download elsewhere, or hit me up on MSN. ironangel@luukku.com

totems, from memory, are symbols of power, territory, or of spiritual meaning, could be made from their own dead, or even be a finely crafted tree modification, covered in the enemys blood and decorated with their memorabilia.

I am basing that more closely on IRL than dnd though but I have to assume theres not a vast difference. will look for some dnd specific source.

also yups, I figured since it was mentioned "descended from -divine- etc" aasimar should fit, better than a tiefling, because they are exactly that, divine descendants. if you meant directly birthed from a deity it would be slightly different. but I assume you don't. tieflings are born of DEMONS or devils, thus does not fit your story so much, that said there are a few near deity level beasties down there, but I doubt they have anything to say about neutralness.

ed: one google search later and i'm seeing totem animals, talk of q.staffs or totems...I guess its not as simple as i first thought.

Strictly speaking a totem is/represents a (mythical) ancestor of the community. Its function is to strengthen group identity. I can imagine it's especially important for larger tribes whose members aren't immediately related but can find unity in their shared totem ancestor. A tribe whose totem is a bear considers themselves descended from the bear. Often there is a myth that tells how the tribe began, such as the bear mating with a maiden whose offspring would become the tribe. Of course, it's true that the totem becomes a symbol for the tribe's power and territory. The tribe might be thought to share some traits of their mythical ancestor, such asl strength or cunning.

This is purely comparative religion. FR doesn't strictly adhere to proper scientific terminology, but it's the general idea. I'm not sure if Tuigans practice totemism as a primary form of religion, though. They have two great gods, the sky and the earth. Then there's beast cults (totemism) and spirit worship. It seems to be a hodge podge of manism, animism, totemism and theism.

The most obvious example of totem beliefs in FR are the Uthgardt tribes, of course.

Trying to learn more about Genasi, So i know what to expect of them.

Any Sourcebooks i can DL on the web?

The best Genasi sourcebook is Races of Faerun, but the entries on Genasi in there have been copied in their entirety onto Amia Wiki. Just read that.

AmiaWIki Section was good.

Next Question
Does Genasi have Innate magic(Sorcerous)?

Reason for question
Seems that many of the Genasi Subraces get's a negative Charisma Score.

Very_Svensk wrote:

AmiaWIki Section was good.

Next Question
Does Genasi have Innate magic(Sorcerous)?

Reason for question
Seems that many of the Genasi Subraces get's a negative Charisma Score.

What would a negative cha modifier have to do with their sorcerous potential? I understand it's not exactly helpful, but you pretty much answer your own question there. You can be ugly/shallow and a sorcerer, you'll just be slightly hinder in comparison to someone who isn't.

All genasi a magical ability tied to their ancestor, Fireball, Ice Storm, Stoneskin, and Gust of Wind, for Fire, Water, Earth and Air respectfully. Now if you want to call that sorcerous, I suppose you can, as it is because of their heritage.

Now does that mean every single genasi has the ability to become a "sorcerer"? No. I wouldn't think so. But they all have the potential, genetically speaking.

IronAngel wrote:

The most obvious example of totem beliefs in FR are the Uthgardt tribes, of course.

Well I'm kinda RPing a pagan barbarian. He's from a Uthgardt tribe but still he worships Teyela and Etugen as primordials. So Lord of Skies, Queen of Earth and King of Battle. Then there is beast cult of his tribe and finally the spirits.

air and fire get int bonuses. maybe not sorc but wizard could work. that said so could sorc/bard/rdd/etc, you'd just have to find a way to deal with the negative stats as you go. like tieflings and aasimar they are descendents of half-[plane in question goes here.] rather than a full half themselves.

I forget where I read it but dragon sorcorer is just one origin of a sorc's magics, there are others...five that i've seen.

ed: ie inate magic is both logical and doable with a gensai.

Dead wrote:

lore on tuigans, barbarian tribes, spirits, totems and stuff pretty please?

IronAngel wrote:

I have two Horde PDFS, one is a campaign setting and the other a history of the Tuigan Wars for campaign use. The Horde cs was/is available on the WotC site for free: if you know the direct download link, it's still there, but since the site was revamped the actual download index page is gone. So you'll have to see if anyone knows the link, download elsewhere, or hit me up on MSN. ironangel@luukku.com

Here are two I found.

The Horde, a supplement from Dragon Magazine #349.

The Horde - Forgotten Realms Campaing Setting download link.

@Khy This is great! Thanks a bunch!

@IronAngel are those the ones you were talking about, or you got something extra?

A racial charisma penalty doesn't stop you from being a sorceror.

I have one that's supposed to be used as an adventure module, outlining the progress of the Tuigan Wars, individual battles and all that. It's not very interesting or useful unless you specifically want to have something to do with the war, though.

I'm not sure why an Uthgardt barbarian would worship Tuigan gods by the same names. They're known in most of Faerûn as Grumbar and Akadi. Uthgardt live almost on the western coast of Faerûn whereas Tuigans live on the far eastern reaches between Faerûn and Kara-Tur. Any cultural exchange between the two is pretty much unconceivable, IMO. Which exactly are you playing? The only thing they have in common is that they're "unicivilized." Uthgardt tribes worship a divine totem of their tribe (Sky Pony, Thunderlizard, etc.) that is actually an aspect of Uthgar, and I think Tempus to a lesser extent.

Uthgardt totem animals are far cooler than the Tuigan stuff. Be an Uthgardt.

Thunderbeast Totem tribe is pretty much made for Amia as well. It lets you use some magic's, like potion and brew, while still holding the tribal Uthgardt customs. It also is the clan with the highest tolerance for elves and half-orcs, which is excellent for Amia where an elf or Half-Orc is more normal then half the races around the place.

I highly recommend it's use if you do make an Uthgardt.

Question: could a dread wraith be used as the heart of a bone Golem? my chars gunna try anyway just I need to know what'll happen...

Well not necessairly in the endless wastes and kara-tur. Tuigans are found in the lands of Thay, Narfell, Damara etc. Black Lion tribe of Uthgardt is located under the Great Glacier. Simply, the clash of two cultures and religions did not cause the war in his clan. And I am not speaking of the major vast of the Black Lions. Smaller villages and clans are present there.

TormakSaber wrote:

A racial charisma penalty doesn't stop you from being a sorceror.

But it implies that the Subrace isn't suitable for it. So it's contradictory.

Dead wrote:

Well not necessairly in the endless wastes and kara-tur. Tuigans are found in the lands of Thay, Narfell, Damara etc. Black Lion tribe of Uthgardt is located under the Great Glacier. Simply, the clash of two cultures and religions did not cause the war in his clan. And I am not speaking of the major vast of the Black Lions. Smaller villages and clans are present there.

Tuigans are sporadically found there because that's where they stranded/settled after the Tuigan Wars. It doesn't mean they're integrated into the Damaran/Thayvian/whatever culture. If you want to use the Tuigan subrace for the extra strength, this seems like a desperate attempt to justify it. If that's not your motive, I'm impressed, but it still doesn't make sense. Since this is the lore topic, I have to say it doesn't happen in the Realms. Theoretically, it might be possible and I'm not sure if there's anything anyone can do to stop you ruleswise on Amia.

I could be wrong, off course. What are your sources for this lore that leads you to assume the cultures have met and blended?

Very_Svensk: there's nothing contradictory about it, really. There are many individuals with a magical bloodline but horrible charisma. They can be human, half-orc, tiefling, aasimar, genasi or anything else. This means they're qualified to become sorcerers, but that doesn't guarantee success in the career. There's nothing contradictory about it. Moon Elves may often be non-Lawful and thus eligible for barbarian, but that doesn't mean they also have to be suitable for a succesful barbarian career.

I do agree it's somewhat unfitting, but that's just because sorcs use charisma as the base for their powers, which is ridiclous. There's good reason for genasi to have low charisma, but little reason for them to be poor sorcerers. But that's how it is.

Thanks iron, Now it makes much more sense!

don't mean to beat a dead horse but i've been asleep, -2 charisma in the long run of things means a loss of +1 modifier maximum, meaning you would have something like 19+ instead of a 20+ mod, with charisma all the way, a couple of great charismas, and item buffs all maxed...

don't be scared to try it >_>

@IA, well the point is that I actually want to RP the tuigan lore, their gods and culture as a barbarian, but I also like the Utgardt totem stuff. As the lore says, Tuigans are pretty tolerant of other religions so there is a possibility that this assimilating of two cultures emerged. It is not that uncommon. When it rains, he praises Teylas, when he's in battle he calls forth Utgardt and the Black Lion to give him strength etc.

Didn't find it anywhere, invented it. But if its -that- wrong, then I could drop it i guess.

Well, Tuigans also have their own beast cults. I'm sure many nomadic tribes have totems. Like I wrote in the subrace description on the sidebar, there's for example a horse cult among them. You could very well do that stuff without being Uthgardt-specific.

Alright, I did some more checking.

Quote:

In addition to these two, the tribes believe in a
number of lesser gods and spirits. The beast cult
of horses is particularly important. An aspect of
Eldath is venerated, since water is so important.
Selune is known for her connection to the moon.
Malar, god of the hunt, is known. Important
places (mountain peaks and oases) also have
spirits who must be venerated.
The nomads have no evil gods. Misfortunes and
ills are either the work of evil spirits or the result
of displeasing a god. Many of the tribesmen’s
customs and taboos are intended to ward off evil
spirits.
--
Other prominent specialty clerics include
those of the Horse Cult and Tiger Cult. Both of
these have the powers of beast cults as described
in FORGOTTEN REALMS Adventures.

And from FR Adventures:

Quote:

Like elemental cults, beast cults vary
from location to location and from beast
to beast. Two cults which venerate a lion
god could be very different in their ceremonies,
appearance, and powers.
The beast cults believe in the existence
of perfect forms of animals. A dog cult,
for example, believes there is a perfect
dog, who is leader of all other dogs. A cat
cult believes there is a perfect cat, who is
master of all cats regardless of breed and
size. They seek to tap into the power of
these beings, who may or may not be
gods in their own right. Perhaps with
sufficient worship, one or more beast
lords could achieve full-fledged godhood
(though Malar, the Beast God, might
have a few words on the matter).
A typical beast cult could have the following
characteristics:
Weapons Allowed: Any Two
Armor Allowed: None
Magical Items Allowed: Same as clerics
Major Sphere: Animal
Minor Sphere: Plant, Combat, Charm,
Weather (any one)
Granted Power (Choose one)
The cult priest can summon a number
of creatures of the worshiped type.
This will be 2-12 small creatures, 1-6
medium creatures, 1-2 large creatures,
or 1 huge creature. The creatures arrive
in 1-3 turns.
The cult priest can transform into the
type of beast he worships, gaining all
the abilities of that creature for 3-18
turns, once per week.
Other Notes
Beast cults may worship monsters in
their ultimate forms as well as normal
animals. Priests of these cults only gain
their special abilities at level 10 or higher.

Alright, it's possible that a tribe of Tuigans would take to worshiping Uthgar. This would happen if an Uthgardt shaman for some reason ended up in their midst, showed his power and started guiding the tribe in worship. But while this is culturally possible, it's just geographically unlikely. It's a freak coincidence that probably doesn't make for a very fitting PC.

Quote:

Until recently, paladins and druids were unknown, but this is changing as an influx of deities from the western kingdoms alters traditional ideas about worship and introduce the barbarians to all manner of new gods.

....

With the founding of Yaïmmunahar, Hubadai has decided to embrace many outside ways, including foreign gods. The result has been a slow incursion of deities
new to the Endless Waste. The Red Knight, the militant goddess of strategy, has become a favorite in Yaïmmunahar, and is worshiped by Hubadai and by those in his armies.

Speaking geographically, it is highly unlikely that one tuigan would end up on Amia in a first place. There is little reason why would one man from the far far east, end up on the small island in the far far west. Especially when it comes to simple folk.

Now as I said, geographically, the Great Glacier, where the Black Lion tribes and clans are located is relativly close to the lands of Nerfall where some tuigan tribes dwell. The way I understand this, it is not a strict location. Especially when it comes to nomads. They tend to migrate.

They're nomads who travel in the Endless Wastes. Maybe sometimes in Narfell, though I suspect they're only mentioned as part of Narfell's demographics because they're those stranded or settled there during and after the Tuigan Wars. There's still the uninhabitable (to most) desert of Anauroch between the two cultures. Basically you're taking the far north-western Germanic/Gaul rip-offs and mix them with the mongol rip-offs from the far east. It doesn't get more remote than that, even if the easternmost Uthgardt are seperated from the westernmost Tuigan "only" by the vast Anauroch, at least two mountain ranges and the civilized lands of northern Moonsea.

It's quite possible for one Tuigan to end up on Amia. Maybe he stepped into the wrong portal. They're everywhere. Maybe he was stranded in Thesk after the war and became a sellsword protecting caravans, gradually moving westward. Maybe he shipwrecked on Khem while buccaneering on the Alamber Sea. The list goes on.

But for one to hold onto the traditional beliefs of his people and simultaneously adopt the extremely tribe-specific fate of Uthgar, maintaining two different faiths based on two different lifestyles, seems unlikely. Why would a nomadic horseman choose a foreign lion totem from a tribe who've settled down as farmers, and in fact, don't even worship their totem much anymore? Try to get into the character's head and understand how he views religion, and then see if it still makes sense. And why would you want to mix two opposite flavors? Yes, it's "possible." But you can expect most people to think you just picked and chose what you liked best from FR lore and subrace stats, slapping them together in a barely viable patchwork.

Do what you want, of course. It's possible but not believable lorewise, and it doesn't really fit into the campaign setting.

That's probably the better idea. From what I remember of the stuff I read up when making my Uthgardt warrior. The Uthgardt are very secular. They keep to themselves, and thus their religious beliefs tend to be confined to their tribes and their people. I think it's relativily unheard of for an Uthgardt cleric, or Shaman to spread the faith outside of his own tribal group, even in some of more accepting tribes such as the Thunderbeast.

Its certaintly not unheard of for warriors and tribes to go wandering, but I don't thinks it's so common of the religious members, those who know all the beliefs and customs. Nor am I sure lore wise of any Uthgardt tribes near where the Tuigan invaded. They prefer lush green's or snow covered tundra's.

Here's an idea though. Ruathym with it's witch overlords also has a strong animal affliation. It's probably not unheard of for some form of base animal worship in the more rural area's of Ruathym. Think cults and such. It could be entirely possible for a child to be fathered from a Ruathym and a Tuigan during the Tuigan invasions, and then it's entirely possible for said child to go wandering, or be captured by slavers, and rescued by a wandering uthgardt tribe.

You could then start your character journey in Amia seeking out other Tuigan to learn of his past and his religious heritage. As there are more Tuigans on amia to learn from then Uthgardt PC's

While based a lot on conjecture and possability, it's more believable then a Tuigan actively coming from his lands with fore-knowledge of his customs and adopting Uthgardt customs.

@IA I am failing to understand why are Tuigan traditional beliefs in opposition to Utgardtian beliefs? Both Uthgardtians and Tuigans are people of war. The both of them live simple, nomadic lifes. They both believe in spirits of sorts. They both have animal cults. I am finding a line of connection here.

The way I see it, Tuigans dont believe in Teylas and Etugen in a classic, "western" way. From my point of view Etugen and Teylas are personifications of the sky and the earth. Like there is not a specific, sentient deity with sky/earth as portfolio, but instead the whole sky is Teylas and the whole earth is Etugen. Correct me if I am wrong.

On the other side, Uthgard is a sentient deity of battle. He is a great warrior etcetc. Since Tuigans lack the deity of battle, it is not that uncommon that they accept a great warrior such as Uthgard is, as someone who would give them strength in battle.

Because Uthgard isn't worshiped as the diety so much. He is worshipped through the Totem spirits. One of Uthgards domains is Uthgardt I believe. So he is granted their prayers through the totem spirits, or something like that.

The two people have never ever met, and likely never will. They are so far removed geographically that it's probably highly likely the Tuigan don't even know they exist. I don't know much about Tuigan religious stuff, but Iron is generally right about this kinda stuff, so I'm more inclined to take his word that the two belief coming together isn't likely.

@Selvec...Youre thinking of Rashemen, not Ruathym. Yes, they do have a form of animal worship, though it is tied specificaly to their "beserker lodges"

Yea, Rasheman.

Can't find that 1/4 Rule about dragons and stuff anywhere..

Could somebody link me to it?

Dead wrote:

@IA I am failing to understand why are Tuigan traditional beliefs in opposition to Utgardtian beliefs? Both Uthgardtians and Tuigans are people of war. The both of them live simple, nomadic lifes. They both believe in spirits of sorts. They both have animal cults. I am finding a line of connection here.

The way I see it, Tuigans dont believe in Teylas and Etugen in a classic, "western" way. From my point of view Etugen and Teylas are personifications of the sky and the earth. Like there is not a specific, sentient deity with sky/earth as portfolio, but instead the whole sky is Teylas and the whole earth is Etugen. Correct me if I am wrong.

On the other side, Uthgard is a sentient deity of battle. He is a great warrior etcetc. Since Tuigans lack the deity of battle, it is not that uncommon that they accept a great warrior such as Uthgard is, as someone who would give them strength in battle.

Tuigans are nomadic horsemen. Uthgardt are various tribes, but none of them are nomadic horsemen (and rarely they're nomadic at all). The Black Lions you mentioned, as far as I can see, have settled as farmers in Beorunna's Well and besides have mostly dropped the worship of their tribal totem. Two peoples with different livelihoods and cultures have little reason to exchange religion, either, as that's shaped by their surroundings.

This is especially true in the case of totems. As I said earlier, a totem is literally believed to be the ancestor of a tribe. Sky Pony Uthgardt believe they descend from the mythical Sky Pony. Why would they share this belief with outsiders? That would mean inducting them into the tribe. And why would a Tuigan who has his own traditions and ancestors want to adopt the ancestor of a foreigner? They have their manism, their own ancestor worship. Uthgar isn't primarily a god of war, he's the tribal patron of a few geographically and ethnically distinct tribes. It's more likely the worship of Tempus has spread among the Tuigans and taken a place alongside their ancestors, the sky and earth, and beast cults.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Can't find that 1/4 Rule about dragons and stuff anywhere..

Could somebody link me to it?

What are you talking about?

Lorewise, they don't exist. At least not in the way they're usually portrayed on Amia. If you're a half-dragon, you look like a half-dragon. If your father/mother was a half-dragon, and mated with a humanoid, you look like a regular humanoid. You just have relatively immediate heritage to a dragon.

The only thing I could say ever "redeems" a "1/4th" humanoid is if they become a Dragon Disciple. Perhaps then it's reasonable that they would begin to look like a half-dragon, as their blood is relatively stronger because it's less diluted. Where a person with 1/64th dragon heritage might just grow scales and claws through being a disciple, maybe a "1/4th" grows horns, their mouth begins to look a little more like a snout and their scales look more like the genuine thing. Note: this is my interpretation, not lore I'm quoting.

But as for popping in with a "1/4th" and looking as/more draconic than most half-dragons do, that really doesn't exist in lore. It's just something that Amia allows.

Does anyone know of (or have material references on) the methods how Shifters acquire the use of different shapes?

I hate to assume I suddenly had a flash of insight on a creature I've never heard or or seen before. Seems rather lacking in RP reasoning.

Going through the RP to learn from a few different teachers is interesting, but ultimately confusing since each person has a different opinion. Now I guess that means there is a good chance nothing exists, but I would assume any method that lets you view a particular creature long enough would suffice?

its generally different in every case, from what I have heard. stems from the druids wildshape, or a natural shapeshifting ability in pnp, so...I guess look there rather than for shifter specific lore (also shifters arn't in the core manuals.)

I found a reference under Master of Many Forms from the Wizards website. Has some information and looks to be 3rd Ed time frame. Not much on the RP areas but I guess it's a start.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... hape_rules

You are only supposed to be able to transform into a creature with no more hitdice than you, that you have actually encountered. MAny DMs allow you to make skill checks of a sort to know aboutand turn into monsters that you haven't encountered before. In nWN you just kind of have to.. fudge it.

I'm considering playing a shevarashan arcane archer, so I'd like to request lore from arcane archers (I do intend to find out IC when the time's right, but I'd like to read beforehand as well) and lore from Shevarash as well.

Would there be a kind soul that could inform me of these particular topics? I'd appreciate a PM if you can.

Thank you in advance!

There's no arcane archer lore to speak of. I've looked for it to no avail, and Herkles (I think) asked around on Candlekeep without luck. It's "just a prestige class" which means you're free to interact with existing player-made lore and add your own fluff to the mix.

This is the Shevarash material from Demihuman Deities. In addition, there are some excerpts out there. Something in Weapons of Legacy I'm told, and a short story in Realms of the Elves.

Ahha! Thank you for your quick reply, Olli. It's appreciated. Gonna start reading now.

Well, what kind of lore are you lookin' for? Like how imbuing works? How to make the arrows? How AA-Only arrows work? Stuff like that?

That's more like "Amia mechanics and player fluff", though. At least I haven't found any useful source other than the PrC description in whatever book it's featured in. And that's very generic, like "you can place an AoE spell on an arrow". There's absolutely no cultural background provided, and you won't even find individual AA NPCs in novels. If there's any other source that says anything at all about AAs, spill the beans already!

xD Nah, there aren't any sources. We AAs were told a long time ago to just make crap up. I was gonna offer suggestions and possibly give him some inspiration! Some of the Amian AAs RP that the NPC Amilith makes the special AA arrows and just distributes them to other AAs, but I never did like that one, since logically that means anyone could still use them if they come pre-imbued and enchanted.

Personally, I like the idea of innate magic. You need caster levels to be an AA, but as you progress through your AA levels you don't get more caster levels; instead, you get a boost to arrow enhancement. So it's essentially a specialty arcane path, just like someone who specializes in Necromancy and can't use Divination spells. Except by specializing in the art of Arcane Archery you're giving up the ability to further your other arcane pursuits.

Since this is still a very arcane class, this "innate magic" technique shared amongst Arcane Archers allows one to pick up just any normal arrow and imbue it with some concentration through touch. After practice, this becomes second-nature to them and they can do it several times a round without much trouble. If the arrow is imbued, and then passed to someone else who's not an Arcane Archer, it fades after just a short amount of time, which is why others cannot use it, and yet when the arrow is fired it still strikes home, complete with the enchantments and imbuing of the Arcane Archer. This also helps explain the special Amian imbuing that wears off after a time when you cast spells directly on your arrows to imbue them that way.

Perhaps it could use a bit of touching up, but seeing as there is no lore for it elsewhere, I think Amia-brew Arcane Archer information is kosher. Let me know what you think, or if I should just look at this differently. :wink:

Oh no, I'm definetely on board with any player-made lore on it. I just figured you might have something else too.

I agree with your explanation of the technicalities, mostly. I suppose sorcerers do it a bit different from wizards, but it's essentially an arcane discipline like any, but easier to learn because you only study a very limited range of spells that you refine further. And that leaves you time for other things, like getting that tasty full BAB.

I want to create a 'mystic' PC, and I'm trying to figure out how to go about it. I'm not sure if a Wizard or Sorcerer would be the better fit.
I envision her as someone who is into the occult, symbology, studying ancient texts and their symbols for hidden meanings and hidden powers. This would lead me to a wizard build.
But I also envision her as having 'innate' mystical powers which she accesses thru meditation and mantras. This is how she is able to wield and manipulate the power of the Weave just thru her natural ability. This leads me to a Sorcerer build.
Which is more fitting do you think? What other aspects of a Mystic should I consider that would lead me to one or the other class?

Bard.

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