AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Last edited by Dead on Fri, Oct 21 2011, 19:59 PM, edited 2 times in total.

I have pondered for some time now, and consulted with over 10 players, always coming to a same agreement. Heal potions are way too powerful and should be removed from the module completly. Let's be honest.. the script they use is a joke. The first healing potion is the one that counts. And it takes just enough rounds of fight to lose majority of hp, and to safely chug a new healing potion, getting the 100% effect again. Now here is several reasons to remove them from the module:

- they give you double hp (and if usel propertly unlimited hp)
- they are avalible to anyone
- removal of heal potions would increase the need for the healing skill
- imho, clerics/druids are the only one who should the ability to heal fully
- it would make PvE more interesting and more risky
- party healer would be a very desired person to have around
- balance between the warrior and spellcaster (heal potion restarts the battle)

Feel free to add your pros or cons. This is just a suggestion. Sorry for avoiding the Improving Amia forum, but this way more people will be able to see it and give their oppinion on the matter.

One problem, for me atleast, is that it puts Dexers in a bad position, since if they have to use healing kits, they lose most of their AC, whereas a Str based character with heavy armour would lose likely only 1 AC from what is probably in DEX.

Don't get me wrong, removing heal potions would stop abuse, especially by a certain class that waits until near death to heal, which they can get away with due to their advantages.

Dead wrote:

I have pondered for some time now, and consulted with over 10 players, always coming to a same agreement. Heal potions are way too powerful and should be removed from the module completly. Let's be honest.. the script they use is a joke. The first healing potion is the one that counts. And it takes just enough rounds of fight to lose majority of hp, and to safely chug a new healing potion, getting the 100% effect again. Now here is several reasons to remove them from the module:

- they give you double hp (and if usel propertly unlimited hp)
- they are avalible to anyone
- removal of heal potions would increase the need for the healing skill
- imho, clerics are the only one who should the ability to heal fully
- it would make PvE more interesting and more risky
- party healer would be a very desired person to have around

Feel free to add your pros or cons. This is just a suggestion. Sorry for avoiding the Improving Amia forum, but this way more people will be able to see it and give their oppinion on the matter.

I would not remove them entirely. I would remove them from the STORES entirely.

You can create heal potions via the Jobs system with a herbalist. That would be the one way I would leave them in...and it makes the herbalist someone very nice to have around too. Gives a reason to have the herbalist and a few things like that.

I mean seriously...I can buy a +10 heal kit for a few hundred gold from a shop. The price to get one made is around 1000+ or I have to spend HOURS of real time hunting down the two ingredients for the first part, two ingredients for the second part and then make the thing which even at rank 2, a supposed 70% chance, I will miss about 60% of the time simply because the NwN RNG is busted and nothing can be done about it.

Its also the same with the heal potions too...you have to create the 2 ingredients by combining 2 other ingredients to make 1 of the two you need...so a heal potion from a player herbalist represents HOURS of time...and I can guarantee you they wont be the few thousand gold you can buy them from the stores now.

Of course, this is going to be something that people are going to squark about.

I mean there are tons of heal potions already out there and they will become instant gold. So I don't know how effective it will be.

Also, I should note that the heal potions that creatures drop dont stack with ones you buy.

I agree they are overpowered, and with the removal of timestop(It's near useless now compared to GS), it's a good time to take a hard look at heal potions. Epic Spells like GR and Hellball without timestop become useless before the power of a cheap potion. The standard mage can't do enough damage without being an ac-tank(not enough before the distance is closed and they are dev-kd'd with crits in the 100's) Even if they GS, and run to regain distance and re-cast there is not enough damage done before yet another potion goes off.

Characters who use hips, can just spam hips and heal to full using kits without being seen but for a second. Hips, walk away 5 feet, heal kit, rinse repeat.

Simeron wrote:

I would not remove them entirely. I would remove them from the STORES entirely.

You can create heal potions via the Jobs system with a herbalist. That would be the one way I would leave them in...and it makes the herbalist someone very nice to have around too. Gives a reason to have the herbalist and a few things like that.

I agree. But.. 1 man can make a healing potion. Takes 4-5 jobs, but it is doable. I know becouse I had a druid who was doing it. Now.. you leave healing potions to be Job system only and voila! That fine orchard (xp famer) got a fine addition for now they can put the grapes to use and create healing potions in the end. What I am saying that if you leave healing pots to job system.. we will have over 9000 harbalists without any RP background, farming for healing potions.

And indeed, it takes a lot of time.. but on the other side.. it gives a HUGE advantage in PvE so grinding for 4 hours is payable.

+ as you said.. those who don't have such job will pay hundreds of thousands for such potions. so basically.. it would create even more trouble.

Alkor wrote:

I agree they are overpowered, and with the removal of timestop(It's near useless now compared to GS), it's a good time to take a hard look at heal potions. Epic Spells like GR and Hellball without timestop become useless before the power of a cheap potion. The standard mage can't do enough damage without being an ac-tank(not enough before the distance is closed and they are dev-kd'd with crits in the 100's) Even if they GS, and run to regain distance and re-cast there is not enough damage done before yet another potion goes off.

That's highly irrelevant as cannon Time Stop is not a spell to use so you can Hellball a group and laugh. It's supposed to be there for buffing/summoning/running away.

Also the huge flaw with part of the premise of the topic is.... not everyone powerbuilds.

My main has run into instances at level 30 in PvE where he has had to down a second heal potion with the lessened healing penalty.
So no, it's not guaranteed that you will get 100% all the time. You will effectively be weakening the people that don't build for high AC/AB.

And yeah, making them herbalist only is going to ruin the economy more than it already is (though my chars still never have a surplus of money... likely from not boss running all the time).

Naivatkal wrote:

My main has run into instances at level 30 in PvE where he has had to down a second heal potion with the lessened healing penalty.

Another advantage I say. Your character will have to join with the other characters in order to do something which = roleplay.

Naivatkal wrote:

Alkor wrote:

I agree they are overpowered, and with the removal of timestop(It's near useless now compared to GS), it's a good time to take a hard look at heal potions. Epic Spells like GR and Hellball without timestop become useless before the power of a cheap potion. The standard mage can't do enough damage without being an ac-tank(not enough before the distance is closed and they are dev-kd'd with crits in the 100's) Even if they GS, and run to regain distance and re-cast there is not enough damage done before yet another potion goes off.

That's highly irrelevant as cannon Time Stop is not a spell to use so you can Hellball a group and laugh. It's supposed to be there for buffing/summoning/running away.

Also the huge flaw with part of the premise of the topic is.... not everyone powerbuilds.

My main has run into instances at level 30 in PvE where he has had to down a second heal potion with the lessened healing penalty.
So no, it's not guaranteed that you will get 100% all the time. You will effectively be weakening the people that don't build for high AC/AB.

And yeah, making them herbalist only is going to ruin the economy more than it already is (though my chars still never have a surplus of money... likely from not boss running all the time).

I'm not talking about cannon pnp, nor do I care about their irrelevant made up designs. I'm talking about NWN and Amia.

I'm sorry if you don't think about your builds before making them, other people do, I recommend visiting the build topic. I delight in the removing of noob i-win buttons, timestop was one of them, bigby was one of them, healpot is another of them. You should use skill and planning, not 'click here to win'.

Quote:

- they give you double hp (and if usel propertly unlimited hp)
- they are avalible to anyone
- removal of heal potions would increase the need for the healing skill
- imho, clerics are the only one who should the ability to heal fully
- it would make PvE more interesting and more risky
- party healer would be a very desired person to have around

Dead wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

My main has run into instances at level 30 in PvE where he has had to down a second heal potion with the lessened healing penalty.

Another advantage I say. Your character will have to join with the other characters in order to do something which = roleplay.

My char does in fact do that. Since it now must be said, he is a semi-loner. There are many times when he does not want to hunt with others for reasons of wanting to be alone or simply just coming down to trust issues with people in general. So -his- RP is that he doesn't trust many people, and is not social to boot, so running with a group is not something he does a lot. And he has not been active because many of the people (myself included) are on alts nowadays.

Also, it would be noted that this is not 'boss running' type hunting. He's able to solo the giants (including the king/queen usually, though it's iffy) and the flayers (though that's more problematic). Domi and all the other bosses, however, require additional support to even attempt.

This also occurs when he decides to go and see how much he can handle with as little potions/scrolls as possible.

So the argument of 'it will bring RP' is invalid, really.

Alkor wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

Alkor wrote:

I agree they are overpowered, and with the removal of timestop(It's near useless now compared to GS), it's a good time to take a hard look at heal potions. Epic Spells like GR and Hellball without timestop become useless before the power of a cheap potion. The standard mage can't do enough damage without being an ac-tank(not enough before the distance is closed and they are dev-kd'd with crits in the 100's) Even if they GS, and run to regain distance and re-cast there is not enough damage done before yet another potion goes off.

That's highly irrelevant as cannon Time Stop is not a spell to use so you can Hellball a group and laugh. It's supposed to be there for buffing/summoning/running away.

Also the huge flaw with part of the premise of the topic is.... not everyone powerbuilds.

My main has run into instances at level 30 in PvE where he has had to down a second heal potion with the lessened healing penalty.
So no, it's not guaranteed that you will get 100% all the time. You will effectively be weakening the people that don't build for high AC/AB.

And yeah, making them herbalist only is going to ruin the economy more than it already is (though my chars still never have a surplus of money... likely from not boss running all the time).

I'm not talking about cannon pnp, nor do I care about their irrelevant made up designs. I'm talking about NWN and Amia.

I'm sorry if you don't think about your builds before making them, other people do, I recommend visiting the build topic. I delight in the removing of noob i-win buttons, timestop was one of them, bigby was one of them, healpot is another of them.

*facepalms*

You... I cannot believe you just tried to argue with 'omg learn to powerbuild' ... Because in essence that is what you just said.

Trust me, I know how to powerbuild. But I also build for RP, just like many other people do. So, once again, that's an irrelevant argument.

As for 'not caring about PnP designs' ... well that's just irrelevant since it appears the DMs are trying to make certain things more like PnP.

Naivatkal wrote:

*facepalms*

You... I cannot believe you just tried to argue with 'omg learn to powerbuild' ... Because in essence that is what you just said.

Trust me, I know how to powerbuild. But I also build for RP, just like many other people do. So, once again, that's an irrelevant argument.

As for 'not caring about PnP designs' ... well that's just irrelevant since it appears the DMs are trying to make certain things more like PnP.

Uhm no, Pnp is terribad unbalanced, you don't want it, Mages would be waaay overpowered. Every addition has to be looked at from a balance perspective.

What I just said, is people will powerbuild, and that needs to be taken into account on a balance-level. "Just because some people don't" Is not a reason to 'not' account for those who do.

Since when was powerbuilding and rp seperate? One is your stat sheet, and the other is what you type. It's entirely possible to fit in non-combat 'rp' skills upon a strong build.

Naivatkal wrote:

Dead wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

My main has run into instances at level 30 in PvE where he has had to down a second heal potion with the lessened healing penalty.

Another advantage I say. Your character will have to join with the other characters in order to do something which = roleplay.

My char does in fact do that. Since it now must be said, he is a semi-loner. There are many times when he does not want to hunt with others for reasons of wanting to be alone or simply just coming down to trust issues with people in general. So -his- RP is that he doesn't trust many people, and is not social to boot, so running with a group is not something he does a lot. And he has not been active because many of the people (myself included) are on alts nowadays.

Also, it would be noted that this is not 'boss running' type hunting. He's able to solo the giants (including the king/queen usually, though it's iffy) and the flayers (though that's more problematic). Domi and all the other bosses, however, require additional support to even attempt.

This also occurs when he decides to go and see how much he can handle with as little potions/scrolls as possible.

So the argument of 'it will bring RP' is invalid, really.

His argument is not invalid based on the premise of your single specific, loner non-rp, solo-type character. Sorry.

Team up with a cleric if you want tons of heals? If not, then so be it. -or be the cleric. (/druid/ect.)

I'd agree if I didn't have a character with 500+ HP. Thats alot of heal kits... even with Heal Skill investment.

As a player with a character who could possibly make a seriously huge profit from heal potions going Job System-only, I am firmly against it. If anything would be done to "nerf" Heal Potions again, it should be to remove them from the Job System and from stores. A powerful spell like Heal shouldn't be made from grapes, mushrooms, and tree bark anyway. I would rather those who can cast the spell be given all rights to the spell instead, even if there has to be a scripted cleric gets x and y in b amount and casts the spell onto the mixture to make a potion that acts as the Heal spell.

Naivatkal wrote:

My char does in fact do that. Since it now must be said, he is a semi-loner.

Also, it would be noted that this is not 'boss running' type hunting. He's able to solo the giants (including the king/queen usually, though it's iffy) and the flayers (though that's more problematic). Domi and all the other bosses, however, require additional support to even attempt.

The consequence of being not a powerful (powerbuilded) semi-loner is exposing yourself to a great risk when hunting. Otherwise, with heal potions, there is almost no consequence? "The Fire Giants? Oh well.. what's the worst thing that could happen. If needed, i'll chug down a potion. "

I believe this is what Alkor was going to say, he was just more bluntly. If you don't want your character to be as powerful, and you don't want him to run in groups.. face the risk.

@Goblin no. your character has 1000+ hp.

@Jess That's exactly what I'm saying. Worst thing is that cleric/druids do not even have to take heal spell. There are more useful lvl 6 and 7 spells they could use instead of a spell they can buy a potion of.

Um.

I like heal potions. I like hunting alone. I'm also very BAD at it, both alone or in groups.

The nerf already screwed most of my chars who need heal potions. Please leave it be. It's simple to say when you play mainly tanks/group critters, but Katsumi and Nelene and people like them kinda need the pots.

If you want to help, take them out of PVP. That's where I see it cause the most issue.

I don't see why players who would rather create 'characters' than play uniform, pre-set builds should be 'punished' because a few who do play uniform, pre-set built, fresh-out-the-cloning-vat 'characters' think its too easy.

Removing 'heal' potions will simply make those clones an absolute necessity for survival on Amia. You might as well slap a World of Warcraft logo on it and remove the extensive character creation choices, and simply pick from the choice of 'warrior', 'mage', 'rogue'. Each with one or two predetermined 'trees' of skills to choose from.

Yeah, leave heal pots be. If you have a healer in your group, he or she will be put to good use. Last time I was in the abyss with a group everyone loved the healer, even though we had heal pots. A healer will shine if he/she does a good job and will surely be noticed.

There are pros and cons to the heal potions and how widely available they are. Personally I like the idea of having it like Baldurs gate, where churches were the only places that the best healing equipment. Stuff like cure minor/moderate/serious/critical wounds could be sold by merchants, but heal spells restricted to places where clerics are (seemingly) in abundance!

Give us clerics some loving to!

Edit: Also, what does powerbuilding have to do with how widely available heal potions are?

it has nothing to do with powerbuilds.
those who are making their builds dependant on instant heal are the ones who are having the issue with their characters. this is a hostile world. you either train yourself to be powerful, or you mind the farm and milk the cows. not running around trying to play a hero, becouse you know if you screw up, you'll always get a second chance (heal potion). It's like you dont even care weather you are facing a dragon, as long as you have a potion handy.

@Ulir Cleric in a heal potion equipped party is not a healer but a money saver.

Dead wrote:

@Ulir Cleric in a heal potion equipped party is not a healer but a money saver.

Both! Depends on your view I suppose.

Ulir wrote:

Yeah, leave heal pots be. If you have a healer in your group, he or she will be put to good use. Last time I was in the abyss with a group everyone loved the healer, even though we had heal pots. A healer will shine if he/she does a good job and will surely be noticed.

That was Salema, wasn't it? ;3

haha, it was actually. I wasn't sure about the name. :mrgreen:

You, sir/miss, are a grand healer!

Well that's what's she meant to be

And thanks! I need to get her out again for fun times.

Take them out of shops and or crafting and make it so they are loot drops perhaps?

They are loot drops already. I think its a tier 3 drop.

Dead wrote:

Cleric in a heal potion equipped party is not a healer but a money saver.

So buying a few stacks of heal potions is cheaper then hiring someone to aid you, which I notice most do it for the hunt and/or XP and are usually content with whatever loot they pick up as payment?

Last edited by Arcadence on Fri, Oct 21 2011, 16:40 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Dead wrote:

it has nothing to do with powerbuilds.

Because there are only 13 stories ever told, and I've stared at the intertron for unhealthy amounts since the early 1990s, I'm safely placing my bet on this exactly has to do with powerbuilds.

Quote:

this is a hostile world. you either train yourself to be powerful, or you mind the farm and milk the cows. not running around trying to play a hero, becouse you know if you screw up, you'll always get a second chance (heal potion)

I think you mean free resurrection through multiple forms including metagaming is a second chance, whereas heal potions are just the same as having an ample food supply, or the proper clothing, or not being a drow walking into a "We hate drow" convention.

Quote:

Sorry for avoiding the Improving Amia forum

I kind of lol'd.

Edit:

Quote:

You should use skill and planning, not 'click here to win'.

Ironically that's exactly what NWN is. Derp.

I would like to see heal potions replaced with something that improves your toughness in battle, but doesn't heal you to maximum like Heal. So you still need to take advantage of your class abilities in order to win the fight you're in, or press both shoulder buttons and run like a little girl.

Heal spell is fine since you get limited number of castings per day.

There are hard-core servers that enforce perma-death (or a limited number of deaths per character), don't have heal potions (or cure, in some cases), consider +3 weapons super-dee-duper epic loot, strictly enforce RP w/bans, etc.

Amia ain't one of them.

I think the decreased efficiency of heal potions when used too quickly was an excellent solution to the abuse issue. As a side note, anyone who wants a more 'realistic' experience can NOT USE THEM. :twisted:

On to non-beaten-to-death topics I go.

I personally think the time it takes before they heal you to 100% needs to be looked at again, from my own in-game experience.

As for removing them? Nah.

Last edited by Eriline on Fri, Oct 21 2011, 17:31 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Just make potion restore 50% instead of 100% on use (with same -10% per round debuff as it has now). And no change of innate casters' spells. I'll probably make PvP less reliable on these pots. And you'll still be able to save your character from certain death in PvE.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

I personally think the time it takes before they heal you to 100% needs to be looked at again, from my own in-game experience.

As for removing them? Nah.

+1

PaladinOfSune wrote:

I personally think the time it takes before they heal you to 100% needs to be looked at again, from my own in-game experience.

As for removing them? Nah.

I would agree, but the main problem of healing 100% is the very first time they do that. As in opposed to removing them completly, I'd go for 50% of current HP. If you got 100/500 you get healed by 50 hp. But 100% is just too powerful thing to have unless a god or a godess themselves granted you this awesome power.

Making them heal 50% of your current HP is worthless and makes it so you may as well not even buy them. Which means they shouldn't even exist. You can pretty much do the same with a Cure Critical potion. And it scales as you go up, which is silly (to say the least).

100 HP = 150 after potion (up to max)
200 HP = 300 after potion (up to max)
300 HP = 450 after potion (up to max)

There are far more cost efficient ways of getting health at that point, which again makes the argument that Heal potions should be removed. So people will just drink them quicker and get a bigger boost from them, which defeats the purpose.

Now, heal back to 50% of your total HP? That makes more sense (though I believe Sune has the best idea).
Just because you can heal to 100% once doesn't mean you can still win. In PvE if you are having that much trouble you probably will end up needing another, and then another. In PvP, well your opponent can just drink one too and you are likely screwed again.

Also, this topic/thread makes me lol XD

Quote:

I would agree, but the main problem of healing 100% is the very first time they do that. As in opposed to removing them completly, I'd go for 50% of current HP. If you got 100/500 you get healed by 50 hp. But 100% is just too powerful thing to have unless a god or a godess themselves granted you this awesome power.

You do realize that, then, cure critically would be financially more beneficial then, right? 50% of maximum health? Believable for the price difference between cure critical and heal (especially since the average level 30 has between 250 and 400 hit points which would equate to a heal of 125-200 points), but 50% of current health? That sort of kills the point of healing potions, in general, which are emergency savers. The only time I've ever needed to chug a heal potion was those rare instances where I'd have full health, and then the enemy suddenly rolls a lot of 20s, and I end up going from "Uninjured" to "Badly Wounded/Near Death" within a split second. I do agree with the notion of reviewing the timer on heal-potion spamming, though. Clearly if you have to use more than 1 healing potion in a battle, either the following is true:

1. You've no business trying to do what you're doing without being higher level or having more party members.

2. You're being careless while dungeon'ing in general by not preparing things that would reduce the amount of damage you take (like not bringing Bubbly's into dungeons filled with drains & negative damage, or not wearing resistance-gear that would make specific dungeons go from hard to cake-walk)

It's not even about having the right power-build. Give me a party of "RP" builds and I'll make them do the Abyss or the Manor of Mourn without taking much damage, just because they'd be carrying the right preventatives to negate unwarranted damage.

Edit: Naivatkal beat my point, slightly.

Quote:

I'd go for 50% of current HP.

So, you're saying that if I was down to 50 HP that I would only regain 25 hitpoints from a Heal potion? I think you mean 50% of MAXIMUM HP.

Idea is still bad, anyway. I agree with most people when they say that Sune's idea was awesome. It's NWN. It's Forgotten Realms. Heal potions are gonna be around like it or not.

What needs to be done with heal pots IMO is to limit availability (however you want to do it, but limit it). 50% of total hp is good. 10hp/CL also works. The convoluted mechanic of potency increasing by 10%/round up to 100% after use can be left if you want but if you limit availability properly, then its a none issue. The drop rate is currently good at the moment.

Clerics with the heal domain can keep the full healing version of the spell as an added boon.

That said, healing on Amia is a bit all over the place and could do with looking at.

As someone who farms more than most of you probably do, the drop rate for heals will never be able to even minimally supply even the farmer himself. I can count on one hand the number of times I've seem a stack of heals drop.

As for spam-healing, by your third heal potion within the timer range, you're already getting such a pitiful amount of HP healed that you should be running away, else you're just gulping down 3K to sit there, getting kicked in the ass.

Sune's idea is good. Increase the timer a bit. If you're using more than one heal a minute to complete a mob or boss, you're probably outclassed anyway.

Im on board with time stop... I cant agree with removing healing potions what so ever though. They aren't overpowered with their current nerf already in place. Im a big no on removing them.

You can make heal potion heal 150 hps flat, like with PnP limitations on Heal spell in 3.5 edition, or simply make it heal some percentage of total health per round/second.

Problem with removing it is that it'd hit melee classes, not the cleric or arcane casters that have a huge advantage on them. Thus it's probably never going to be removed.

For the record, I happen to agree that they should be removed. Just being realistic.

Kalecgos wrote:

It's NWN. It's Forgotten Realms. Heal potions are gonna be around like it or not.

It is not FR, it's not NWN, it's Amia. We are fixing the mistakes Bioware and WoTC made.

@Gravemaskin mages and clerics are already nerfed to the nine hells and back. All autowin buttons are turned off as Alkor said. Bigby, GS, Time Stop.

Mages and clerics can cast hellball/gr and then what? warrior is down to 10hp. Oh noes! Fortunatelly he has a stack of 10 healing potions. The warrior has approached the mage and its game over unless you are AC/AB/SD based spellcaster. The thing is.. a warrior does not lose his 100+ damage on hit. He can spam it endlessly. A spellcaster has only a certain amount of the offensive spells he/she can cast. And they can all be countered by heal potion(s). So count that as another advantage of nerfing the heal potions. Balance between the classes. Ultimatelly, the spellcasters are using the potions aswell aren't they?

Sune gave a good idea. But the main issue is the FIRST drinking of the healing potion, which nullifies any spells/abilities/attacks that happened to that point of the battle, regardless how powerful and damaging they were. It literally restarts the battle for warriors and leaves the spellcasters and other non AB/AC classes in a great disadvantage. Eventually as P Three said, the main issue of heal potions is PvP, but we cannot separate usage of heal potions in PvP and in PvM now can we?

If you're building a mage to rely on two epic spells to win, you probably deserve to get beaten.

There are plenty of better combos to build, and you don't have to waste epic spells on them.

I knew someone will bring up such an argument, such is why I already gave the counter-argument in my previous post. For those who missed it:

Dead wrote:

But the main issue is the FIRST drinking of the healing potion, which nullifies any spells/abilities/attacks that happened to that point of the battle, regardless how powerful and damaging they were. It literally restarts the battle for warriors and leaves the spellcasters and other non AB/AC classes in a great disadvantage.

Dead wrote:

Mages and clerics can cast hellball/gr and then what? warrior is down to 10hp. Oh noes! Fortunatelly he has a stack of 10 healing potions. The warrior has approached the mage and its game over unless you are AC/AB/SD based spellcaster. The thing is.. a warrior does not lose his 100+ damage on hit. He can spam it endlessly. A spellcaster has only a certain amount of the offensive spells he/she can cast. And they can all be countered by heal potion(s). So count that as another advantage of nerfing the heal potions. Balance between the classes. Ultimatelly, the spellcasters are using the potions aswell aren't they?

In other words, you want all the epic spellcasters to be able to kill all the melee-types with hellball/gr and one shot of magic missile?

Spellcasters have plenty of crap to defend themselves in melee, improved invisilibity, stoneskins, premonitions, not to mention elemental shield and mestils acid sheath which make any fighter without a horseload of HP think twice before whacking you a dozen times.

And anyway, if your relying on sheer damage-dealing spells, try a different approach, mord his ass, and then try to fear/paralyze/stun/confuse/hold/entangle/insta-death him. Damage dealing spells are great, but they are even greater when your target is unable to close in to melee at all or drink a healing potion for that matter.

Dead wrote:

Sune gave a good idea. But the main issue is the FIRST drinking of the healing potion, which nullifies any spells/abilities/attacks that happened to that point of the battle, regardless how powerful and damaging they were. It literally restarts the battle for warriors and leaves the spellcasters and other non AB/AC classes in a great disadvantage.

So in your opinion, if we removed Heal potions all together, then it would be a fair battle between melee-warriors and spellcasters? I beg to disagree, Heal potions are the only things that are giving the melee-types a fighting chance. Both in PvP and PvM, spellcasters still have their epic summons to do their dirty work for them.

They're not being removed, so you can quit the circle jerking I see among about 4 posters in this topic. I'd also like a reason to keep this open in light of the fact that we're not removing them.

To find a compromise becouse they obviously need a fix?
Also giving a chance to more people to hive their "jerking oppinion" to this.

That's not empirical fact, that's your opinion, unfortunately, and not one the DM team appears to share or even a majority of players. You made a constructive post though, which I appreciate, so I won't lock teh topic.

No way José!

- they give you double hp (and if usel propertly unlimited hp)
- they are avalible to anyone
- removal of heal potions would increase the need for the healing skill
- imho, clerics/druids are the only one who should the ability to heal fully
- it would make PvE more interesting and more risky
- party healer would be a very desired person to have around
- balance between the warrior and spellcaster (heal potion restarts the battle)

- There is already a nerf in place that corrects this, if however it is still possible, all that’s needed is a tweak. For instance, instead of healing 10% after one round, it might heal 6%, thereby eliminating the loop.
- Making them exclusive sounds problematic, especially for anti-social evil folk.
- Shifted shifters couldn’t use them, and it’d just be another boon for the skill abundant wizards.
- Amia is not a low magic world. Scrolls and other handy bits of magic are abundant, which allows unrestricted use by non-magical classes.
- The interestingness comes from the motley gang of adventurers banding together to slash guts open. The risk comes from having partying with a banite, or perhaps two, if you like a gamble.
- They already are, given their other divine enchantments, and thriftiness they make possible.
- Both warriors and spellcasters have access to the potion. Both can be built in ways that result in squishiness, or tankiness; the particular niche is irrelevant.

Quit your whining.

Its hard enough to level as it is. Try doing it -without- heal pots.

I feel as things are right now they are fine. Heal potions in shops are the great equalizer.

Moving them to Job System only just ensures everyone and their dog is now an herbalist. Right now, a vast majority of players Job potions, regardless of how those jobs fit their rp. How many people in the world today play in the dirt? It's about 1,000 times that in our adventurer population.

Removing them entirely means a few bad things:
- Bad builds (read: RP builds) become practically unplayable, even in groups since nothing comes close to saving your bacon when a crit drops you into single digit hp.
- The only people able to continuously hunt would be clerics and druids. There's absolutely nothing to justify that.
- Clerics and druids are on the strong side of the power scale. Let's not pretend they have a hard time finding spots in groups and 'need this help.'

If anything needs doing, heal potions need removed from the job system. On the job page we're promised that jobs should be taken for 'RP' and that no job has any real benefit over any other. Yet you've got a job that produces Heal Potions, that is HIGH MAGIC. I've a character who's a hired killer 3, a job that arguably should reap huge paydays in coin at least (hitmen are not cheap!), who kills marks for a pittance that no one in their right mind would risk death or imprisonment for (about 500 gold), and some dirt farmer is raising a crop of high level magic items? :lol:

In terms of money-making, I'd have to perform 6 hits to = 1 jobbed heal potion, and that means running all over the map and risking death (since the marks are seeded into groups of epic monsters and I am not a powerbuilt soloer) for about 500 gold! Versus picking some grapes for an hour and walking away with a pocketful of free heal potions I can use for myself or sell for 2,500 each at profit... Meanwhile a vast majority of sword swingers and spell huckers who've no realistic interest in agriculture can be found picking grapes. :roll:

Heal potions?

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