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Selmak
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 Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2011, 2:53 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Dec 2004
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I would never use the job system to make something I can already buy in a shop. Why waste all that time trying to grind out heal potions when you can raise the GP for them by conventional means anyway?
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DerkDerkistan
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2011, 3:20 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Location: Earth
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This topic makes me smile. Any mage worth his Ph.D. knows that he can't win a straight up damage contest. That's why they have disablers.
I'm perfectly with Sune on this. Heal potions are fine, but the cooldown is a bit too short.
Also, to troll a bit, Palemaster 10+ should get 50% healing, not 100%.
_________________
Remember when I knew a boxer, baby
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Alkor
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2011, 6:03 AM |
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Player
Joined: 25 Feb 2010
Location: Somewhere on a tiny speck of a planet, in a tiny speck of a universe.
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TormakSaber wrote: That's not empirical fact, that's your opinion, unfortunately, and not one the DM team appears to share or even a majority of players. You made a constructive post though, which I appreciate, so I won't lock teh topic. This is incorrect, there are tons of players who think a change should be made to them, including some DMs and a developer. See topic posts for some references. There are also many unspoken people who only play the game and ignore the forums. Everyone I've had the chat with IG, has said they are overpowered. Outright threatening to lock it just imposes an air of fear and tyranny when we're having a logical discussion. I suggest more discretion. Alkor wrote: The standard mage can't do enough damage without being an ac-tank(not enough before the distance is closed and they are dev-kd'd with crits in the 100's) Even if they GS (Edit: Or are an sd), and run to regain distance and re-cast there is not enough damage done before yet another potion goes off. It basically forces ac-tanks due to the availability of builds with high saves universally.
_________________
When good wins the day, and evil is destroyed, then the movie is over ...and you do something else.
Let's make it, not over.
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Arcadence
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2011, 6:17 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 May 2010
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Alkor wrote: <stuff> "Straw men and phantom numbers are logical." Quote: This topic makes me smile. Any mage worth his Ph.D. knows that he can't win a straight up damage contest. That's why they have disablers. Isn't it pretty simple to be immune to those disablers anyway? I can't see hoping for someone to roll a 1 two times a round working out against massive face mauling. I guess massed casters launching simultaneous hellballs and GR works though. This makes me want to finish my SR monk, oddly enough.
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Who are you. What are you. Why do you scream at me?
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Alkor
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2011, 6:40 AM |
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Player
Joined: 25 Feb 2010
Location: Somewhere on a tiny speck of a planet, in a tiny speck of a universe.
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Arcadence wrote: Alkor wrote: <stuff> "Straw men and phantom numbers are logical." Check people who have posted in this topic, I doubt they're made of straw. --- General Clarification: This is not a black or white discussion. Quote: "BIFURCATION: (either-or, black or white, all or nothing fallacy) assumes that two categories are mutually exclusive and exhaustive, that is, something is either a member of one or the other, but not both or some third category. example: Either you favor a strong national defense, or you favor allowing other nations to dictate our foreign policy." http://commfaculty.fullerton.edu/rgass/fallacy3211.htmIn regards to heal potions. It's not remove or leave alone, there are options in-between, some of them already stated previously.
_________________
When good wins the day, and evil is destroyed, then the movie is over ...and you do something else.
Let's make it, not over.
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DerkDerkistan
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2011, 7:14 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Location: Earth
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A couple misconceptions need to be pointed out here.
One. My 30 wizard has not used a Heal potion in ages. I don't even know if she has one in her inventory. She has 9 AC, rarely casts Mage Armor, and doesn't have Epic Mage Armor. She's cast Time Stop all of twice. Edit here because I missed my point. She hasn't died, except once in PvP. Coincidentally, it was a Time Stop war. This suggests to me that almost all mages do not need Heal potions. And yet, from what I can tell, it's mostly players of mages that are clamoring for this.
Two. As easy as it is to become immune to the disablers, it's very easy for the mage to strip that immunity from them (that is, unless you're sporting a Freedom item or have 20 monk levels).
The only people that a Heal nerf hurts is the meleers. It's better to keep them available to everyone than cripple a type of character just because everyone's I-Win button just got disconnected from the motherboard. Seriously, would we even be having this discussion if people weren't crying that Time Stop got nerfed because it was being abused?
_________________
Remember when I knew a boxer, baby
Last edited by DerkDerkistan on Sat, Oct 22 2011, 7:17 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Alkor
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2011, 7:17 AM |
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Player
Joined: 25 Feb 2010
Location: Somewhere on a tiny speck of a planet, in a tiny speck of a universe.
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Indeed, with the removal of a timestop counter, healpotions have become even more powerful.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad timestop is changed, down with the i-win buttons.
_________________
When good wins the day, and evil is destroyed, then the movie is over ...and you do something else.
Let's make it, not over.
Last edited by Alkor on Sat, Oct 22 2011, 7:21 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Arcadence
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2011, 7:20 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 May 2010
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Alkor wrote: Check people who have posted in this topic, I doubt they're made of straw.
---
General Clarification:
This is not a black or white discussion. The irony here is your own failure to read the topic, which is asking for the removal of Heal potions on the grounds of X. I'll bury the dictionary.com copy-pasta with that one. As for the rest of the posts, the majority of the discussions between a handful of players (and not the mythical legion that supposedly opposes heal potions) either derailed or ended up opinion-based bickering. On account of the straw men, I suppose my provocation ended up revealing them to be such. Who would've thought? Quote: Seriously, would we even be having this discussion if people weren't crying that Time Stop got nerfed because it was being abused? I can't wait for them to nerf weird wail meteor storm black blade oh screw it, I'm going to bed.
_________________
Who are you. What are you. Why do you scream at me?
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ValkinMulgin
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2011, 7:30 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Location: Australia
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Heal potions are overpowered, but they CAN not be removed, as it would make the game VERY hard from a leveling and PVE perspective.
Only thing i think you could do is what thats already been suggested, a simple cool down with a "scaled" down healing equation per how many times they are used set a a maximum perhaps ? say 5-8 heal pots per rest, this way it can still be an effective means of leveling but is eliminated as a "spam" to win button. As in PVE you can rest every so often to re-coop spells and abilities and being using pots again, but in pvp you cant leave pvp rest and return.
1-:100%
2-:80%
3-: 60%
4- :50%
5-10: 45%
Having said all that one could instead of the amount of healing, change the time intervals for use, so that it still dow 100% but the second you must wait longer to use "cooldown" an such gets more the more u use it.
OR... just take them out entirely an re-do the heal kits to include +20-100 kits at great cost. ?
p.s time stop, GS, an all the other improvement are just that. Heal pots are overpowered, always were. I like the idea of making clerics the only ones who can make them, an at great cost. But then again i like the idea of letting mages have a proper craftin system etc etc but this is not NWN nor d&d its Amia.
Besides, all that has been improved was things that "CANT" be avoided with spells or gear or something, things that were weak or no counters things that maid PVP in many cases no fun.
_________________ If i am not about when you are, but you would like to RP with Valkin, chose a time in red (GMT+8) / add character name PM me ICLY/OCC  : http://teamup.com/ks662ccbfedda01eb0/
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Lord Jarski
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2011, 7:33 AM |
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Player
Joined: 19 Mar 2011
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The suggested tweak on the current cooldown system of Heal potions is the best way to go.
Healing potions need to be handled carefully, ive seen from experience that nerfing them too much can have a significantly negative impact on a servers playerbase.
And anyway, Heal potions are as dear to the melee-types as the epic summons and pets are for spellcasters. We never go anywhere without them. Heal potions are the only thing that give the melee-oriented classes a chance to do what any half-assed mage can do with one hand and eyes closed. As in go alone with your summons to fight high-end monsters.
My level 25 sorcerer doesent have a single Heal potion, just for the fact that she doesent need them when fighting monsters with her epic summon. If I were to try fighting the same monsters with my lvl 24 blackguard without Heal potions, it would be a certain suicide, not that its easy even with the potions.
To those who wanted Heal potions removed, or nerfed to oblivion:
What should we do about the near invincible six-pack of Heal potions which stand on two (or four) legs and are armed to the teeth?
Last edited by Lord Jarski on Sat, Oct 22 2011, 7:40 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Alkor
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2011, 7:35 AM |
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Player
Joined: 25 Feb 2010
Location: Somewhere on a tiny speck of a planet, in a tiny speck of a universe.
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Arcadence wrote: <snip> I've read everything in the topic, In all honesty I really don't care if the op has stated 'one' solution. It doesn't change the fact there are many. Such may have been the request but it is not the only option. We have a resounding 'no' to total and complete removal. Now alternatives are being discussed. It is the direction the topic has logically taken, and it is what still gives the topic meaning. -again, not straw men, read the topic of those who seek a change. Ask people IG yourself, make a poll, ectect. You really don't have to take my word for it. I can make a huge stack of quotes just from this topic alone if desired. No irony is found, I advocated a change. That is still what is being discussed. Now let's get back to the topic.
_________________
When good wins the day, and evil is destroyed, then the movie is over ...and you do something else.
Let's make it, not over.
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Lord Jarski
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2011, 7:43 AM |
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Player
Joined: 19 Mar 2011
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Alkor, do you yourself use Heal potions in Amia?
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Alkor
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2011, 7:54 AM |
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Player
Joined: 25 Feb 2010
Location: Somewhere on a tiny speck of a planet, in a tiny speck of a universe.
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Lord Jarski wrote: Alkor, do you yourself use Heal potions in Amia? Yup, although I prefer the cheaper ring of nine lives form, for bosses on my premo acid-shealth, as well as pvp when a melee hits me like a truck on a crit or two, or when hit with a GR, or a Hellball, or to negate unlucky trap hits in Brog/Abyss. Eventually, when I get my gear all sorted out, I'll switch over to preserve the ring stats. A full heal item is a full heal item. There used to be items with greater restoration on them too, although I think they got purged/nerfed for being used along side heals to get 2 100%'s. I'm not set on a specific change for the potions, anything that makes it no longer a spam-able i-win button is good with me. I'd prefer not removing it in total though due to the sheer damage that a melee can inflict in one crit, if they're built for it. I've seen crits hit 600-700 damage in one blow. (that was a scythe however). If they were to be removed, then we'd have another long chat about smite-evil and GS items that allow a critter to close the distance and hit flatfoot targets. -and the sudden rise of PM ac-tanks.
_________________
When good wins the day, and evil is destroyed, then the movie is over ...and you do something else.
Let's make it, not over.
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Lord Jarski
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2011, 8:19 AM |
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Joined: 19 Mar 2011
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Agreed on that.
As I said before, the tweak to the already existing cooldown timer on Heal bottles ought to be sufficient to settle this matter once and for all.
Removal or a immense nerf on Heal bottles would cause an enormous unbalance rather than balance. Any build that can in some way avoid damage, be it with skyhigh AC, spells or Hips, would reign supreme, while the builds which hit hard and get hit hard would whither away.
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Growlot
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2011, 11:12 AM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2011
Location: Hobart (z+11)
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Lord Jarski wrote: while the builds which hit hard and get hit hard would whither away. +1 It's hard enough playing a pure non sneak meele PC as it is. I watch the casters in envy at how easy they PvM. So nerf the casters not the strength built front line fighters. Of course I am pretty biased, Playing a greataxe weilding WM....
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Galenson
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2011, 12:37 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2006
Location: Down Under, calculating your demise with blunt expressions.
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There isn't a problem to fix.
They are fine as is.
_________________
Plays:
"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2011, 12:41 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Topic Locked. So much complaining and whining and very little well reasoned and thought out suggestions.
With that in mind I am going to look into it.
To the batcave.
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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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