The topic says it all. Made a new character, Cleric of Tymora with a chaotic good alignment.

Problem is I can't quite get the right mindset to play him. I keep stuck with a prejudice I just can't shake off.

In my head chaotic good = reckless = low wisdom.

Let me explain.

Let me name a few heroes or anti-heroes which are chaotic good in my opinion, the first that come to mind...

1) Han Solo
2) Lara Croft ??? okay she's not that unwise but anyhow..
3) Indiana Jones
4) Batman

Are any of those mentioned "Sages" ? I doubt it.
They're more of the "hit first and think later type"...

Or maybe reckless doesn't equate to low wisdom...

Bleh.

Anyways i'm confused a bit, trying to sort out my chars personnality as I develop him. Trying to stay out of the stereotypical "preacher" type as Tymorans in my head are more "practical" than "theoretical" and would be the kind to enjoy exploring and taking risks above sedentarity...

Anyhow, the big question is, "What -does- a chaotic good character yet very wise character look like?"

Decided this char would be a challenge, but i'd like a few tips.

My chars are usually based on fictional characters in the real world, but really, I can't find any that would inspire me with this one.

Feel free, criticize! JUDGE ME! SLAP ME!



Okay don't slap me, friendly advice will be enough.

Uhh... chaotic doesn't mean low wisdom. Chaotic just means you go with your own flow, and don't worry about law. And you can't really make a cleric with low wisdom... they kind of need to be wise.

Also, Batman is not chaotic. He's LN or NG.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

I know! I mean....but the chaotic good characters I think about -aren't- super wise y'know....but keep it coming...i'm gonna grasp it soon enough...

I'd like a brainstorm of concepts...

Mm, so you are looking for examples to base the char off of? I don'r know, really :V

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Yeah, the chaotic part doesn't mean reckless as much as it defines your view on matters. If someone you knew to be innocent was sentenced to jail, a LG person would do all in his might to correct this mistake using the given laws, where as a CG person likely would consider other means of freeing the wrongfully accused.

Does not mean that you can't be wise in your actions, even if they might conflict with law.

Perhaps not the best example, but I hope it works.

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Tymorans, when left with the choice of a medium reward with low risk situation comparatively to a high risk high reward one will choose the later.


Anyhow...keep it coming...

My grandma tells me to be foolish. How's that for perfectly irresponsible wisdom of an old hag?

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UCE THIS, YOU COW.

I consider 'chaotic' alignments to be more... free? They're more flexible with their own personal codes, may well go out of their way to defy the laws and codes that others bring up with themselves.

That said, Wisdom is an ability that determines both how empathic and perceptive your character is. Rashness or the lack thereof is only one trait of wisdom.

It's an odd combination, but I would certainly say if you take those pieces of information and make them yours, with what you know, it should work well.

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Whatever tomorrow brings, six legs are better than two.

I know many wise liberals and unwise conservatives. Try thinking this problem in terms of real world stereotypes rather than character stereotypes.

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Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf

Remember, in FR, things such as chaos, order, good, and evil are absolutes. They're real, literal forces and facets of nature that have a definite and observable impact on reality, and how reality is made up. I see a chaotic good type with high wisdom as understanding and embracing the virutes and good parts of chaos while trying to avoid the bad. This would cover such concepts as the value of adaptability, the joy unexpected kindnesses can bring people, and a strong aversion to the stagnation brought about by too much order. Creativity and spontaneity would be seen as good, and destruction as a neccesary thing, when it must be done, but never an end in and of itself, as is common with CE. At least that's my take on it.

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Named Most Influential Character, Amia Awards 2011

Try thinking period.

Your initial misstep was coming up with deity and alignment before you came up with character. You come up with character, and then manhandle deity and alignment to fit. Alignments are very solid concepts, but concepts still provide some small leeway for interpretation if you're creative enough. Deities can change and are usually better handled as house gods rather than the beneficiaries of total devotion.

Except in the case of a cleric, which you have.

The following misstep is adhering to a worldview that decrees chaos unwise and perhaps law, by contrast, wise, though you never claimed as much. If you choose to interpret chaos as "adopting original thought over prescribed thought", then it can indeed be wise to follow your own thinking when the accepted thinking is flawed and you have the wisdom to see its flaws. But even so, when you interpret chaos that way it does not mean the wiser person is reckless. You may know that it is wise to speak your mind (because if you don't, your ideas or the truth may never be known), but you're also wise enough to know that speaking it in the wrong place or to the wrong people will garble, threaten, or destroy your message (or you). Character tropes like the ones you've pointed out are selectively wise, and mostly because they are characters in dramas and characters without flaws (assuming you interpret, as many do, the wisest to also have the fewest flaws and the most regrets) do little to drive a narrative. Consider that.

You're much better off using your own head than most of these players' heads. You've identified your quandary - the speculative interplay of chaos and wisdom - and you can use that to key in on a specific character aspect that may render your character fun and interesting for you and others. Especially if you pepper it with some of your more solid details, like being a cleric and worshipping Tymora (or other aspects, like being male or female, being from a certain kind of society, etc.)

Off the top of my head...well, let's talk about gambling. Gambling (casting lots) without moderation is classically interpreted as unwise because you are essentially bartering with fate over your prosperity...which may as well be your future, even for those with a religious vocation. Money does still make the world go round. Fate has a tendency to win, because it has been around longer and sooner or later comes to collect. This is why some philosophies accord fate (seen as random chance) as the feather weighed against the heart, and other philosophies see fate instead as the fulcrum on that same scale.

In the Tymoran faith, Tymora herself embodies that fate. As a cleric of Tymora, I can imagine your character would see gambling without moderation (by without moderation I mean the hardcore kind of gambling, like risking the mortgage of your house, the clothes off your back, your life savings, your first born child, that sort of thing) as a form of surrender to the goddess. And most faiths have a very strong aspect of the worshipper surrendering him or herself to the greater power.

Consequently, that most unwise action becomes, ironically, one of the greatest devotions to Tymora.

Notice I have been using the word unwise. Let's replace it with the word chaotic instead.

Chaos can be interpreted as abandonment of attachment to one's self (save perhaps in the instance of Chaotic Evil, which may care only about the Self and nothing else) as well as worldly possessions. Thus gambling without moderation becomes not an unwise act, but a chaotic act...or does it?

Maybe it does when it is overseen by a priest of Tymora. And priests are the embodiments of wisdom.

Aren't they?

Seek to answer this question when playing the character. Present him/her and his/her interaction with the world as the tableau for the quandary. If you do it right, you may intuit an answer to the question, but it won't be a solid one. It will be a hint, a glimmer of an answer that you need to play the character to research. Don't ever tell anyone the answer, even if you think you've got it figured out. Show it to them instead by playing your character. Don't put the answer in the character's mouth. Put it in the character's actions. Especially if the character's mouth says something utterly contrary to the answer.

Are you still with me, or have I lost you?

Now let's add a few layers of clothing to the quandary. A character that is a priest of Tymora, is Chaotic Good, and very wise, and is a major proponent of a completely unwise/chaotic action - gambling without moderation. Because that act alone is a wonderful devotion to Tymora.

The character can make a wise and calculated bid to dominate the casino in the Delta, to promote it, and to encourage people to give up their fortunes on the roulette wheel. The character can, in his/her own head at first, and perhaps literally as time goes by, transform the secular casino into a temple to Tymora. Not because of any religious trappings, or consecrations, sermons, relics, changes or improvements to the area, not through any sort of iconography or overt dogma or tapestry, mural, and weirauch, but by raising the casino's customer base through promotion into the biggest gods-damned "parish" to the Goddess of Chance anyone has ever seen, all throwing their lives away...with a few who come away filthy rich (and ironically, probably none the wiser for it).

What does that then say about the people who lose their shirts? Are they wiser for it? And thus, has your cleric, by encouraging them to lose everything, effectively done his/her job in making them wiser people and also served his/her goddess?

Maybe this will illustrate the amount of direction and thought you want to put into a character to make it worth your while (and everyone else's, I hope).

"Minsc will lead with Blade and Boot. Boo will take care of the details."


Chaotic good in a nutshell.

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Plays:

"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."

Wisdom represents watching out for poisonous snakes, Graham, and being able to understand why it is sensible to avoid poisonous snakes.
Strength represents being able to lift a poisonous snake, swim through a river filled with poisonous snakes and punch a poisonous snake in the face.
Dexterity represents being able to fling poisonous snakes accurately, backflip over a poisonous snake and manipulate fine objects.
Constitution represents the ability to get bitten by a poisonous snake and shrug it off as well as the ability to challenge a poisonous snake to a drinking contest and win.
Intelligence represents the ability to learn and reason, but not with poisonous snakes.
Charisma represents your ability to be pretty, lead people to their doom at the hands fangs of poisonous snakes and manipulate fine objects.

Point is, an incredibly ugly person might nonetheless have a knack for manipulating people and so they use their charisma score in a different way. Anyway, if I have 20 strength it doesn't mean I have to use it. The same is true of wisdom. You can happily ignore common sense every time and still understand that what you're doing is not very sensible, yet do it anyway.

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Zeskija Inalka - Catkin Meadowleaf - Xyme Thanas'ka

I like your analysis, but this part I can't agree with. It's not just about actions. If she intends to use the reward to murder babies, she's not Good-aligned. Intent is factored in, too. That's why a paladin who's tricked into doing something bad doesn't get evil points, but rather falls and has to atone for his mistake.

Just as an example.

Edit: Bah. You took it out. Indeed, though! Another thread and time. xD

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Oh, sorry Jes! I editted my post soon after writing it because I didn't feel the actions vs. intentions alignment debate was really what was needed :3 Faaar too much thread digression there.

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Zeskija Inalka - Catkin Meadowleaf - Xyme Thanas'ka

Uhm.... thx for the input.

As for Yossarin's post....I have to say it made me feel confused and inspired at the same time.

What i'm still trying to figure out in my head is, say the cleric encourages gambling, and as the result of the encouragement the gambler loses alot of gold and becomes unhappy, how can the cleric then believe he did the "right thing"? Good characters wish the well being of others, and his actions will have caused the opposite!

Though, I suppose in a sense the cleric could think it out in a grander scale, telling himself it was "fate" and "meant to be" and believe the person who lost gold, in a sense, made a sacrifice in Tymora's name, which then could become a "good action". All in her honor.

I'm trying to figure out the difference then between a Tymoran and a Beshabite in regards to "encourageing gambling" as luck and bad luck are intertwined, you roll the dice, either you're lucky or you're not. I wonder if a Tymoran could tend to disbelieve concepts such as the "random factor" and rather believe that the outcome was destined from the start? Perhaps Tymora holds the cards which are alread drawn in advance but only reveiled at the opportunate time?

Would a Tymoran wish the person to "win" ? or is "winning or losing" not even be considered in the grander scheme of things?

I would imagine a Beshabite would "wish" people to lose though, feeding on other's despair as they "lose all"...

Remember, a good hearted person wishes to "help others", can "feel sympathy" and will generally wish other's "well being"....which sort of complicates things...

Anyhow, will figure it out some time or another....

Might just skip the "gambling bit" for my char altogether as it seems rather complicated ... as "risks" can be taken, and encouraged to be taken in many other ways!

I would suggest you make a character from your own mind.
Use your own imagination, and think fantasy.
Real world people have already had their time in the spotlight, time to bring it home to Forgotten Realms.
Why try to do what someone else has already done, when you can do so much more with your own creation.

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He cannot be lawful, as he does a lot of breaking and entering, which is against the LAW, to achieve his goals. But he doesn't go against the law itself, so I'd think he's NG

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My favourite sniper loadout: Huntsman, jarate, bushwacka.
Team Fortress 2 is FREE TO PLAY!

Lawful does not mean the actual law, as the actual laws of some place depend on the views of whoever's writing them. I think 'lawful' means how well the character sticks to their own rigid moral code.

So Batman is... Yeah.

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Whatever tomorrow brings, six legs are better than two.

I can't really speak to the issue of a Tymoran (or perhaps I could if I thought about it) but I can say something similar from the point of view of a Sharessin.

A high wisdom means understanding how people think and act (and yes, part of that is intelligence, too). It means understanding their situations, their hopes & dreams, their needs. It means understanding how to address the problems in their lives and how best to help them. A follower of Sharess (or other similar faith) is wise in being able to see solutions to people's problems, though the solutions may be unconventional.

At the same time, being a chaotic good means, as has been said previously, going with the flow. There's an element of impulsivity about it which, particularly when applied to a Sharessin, sometimes means going with the 'less wise' choice simply because in searching out the novel experience, one honours Sharess. One may even do something deliberately that brings less material satisfaction or risks danger (hardly the wisest choice) in pursuit of interesting sensations (and not always pleasurable ones, either!).

Finally, wisdom also means knowing the difference between good and evil, knowing the morality of your faith, and knowing your own limits. Sharessin push the boundaries of conventional morality, certainly, but the wise Sharessin knows how far she can go without unduly endangering herself or others. She can be impulsive, but is not reckless, and therein lies the wisdom.

Oh, and as far as law goes, I see CG as honouring the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter, and usually only for laws they see as fair or right. Unfair laws may be ignored or contravened so long as one is aware of (wise to) the consequences of doing so - depending on the law and the society, other approaches may be preferable (e.g. adhering to the law while protesting against it).

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~Sharess on AmiaWiki~
Priestess, politician, prostitute
"[They] were moving in on me like Sharessans on a new broad in the bath house" - Tracer Bolt
AmiaWiki mod (mostly inactive)

In D&D, the Lawful-Chaotic axis means more Order-Chaotic.

You can break the laws of a land and still be lawful so long as you keep to your own personal code of order. This is often seen when a Lawful Good paladin crops up in a Lawful Evil nation and works against the laws of the government to restore Good. (Or introduce Good if the land has always been evil.)

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My point, psycho, is not to let the know-it-alls ruin a good thing for you. The core of your question is one you should be researching by playing the character, investigating all the nuances. These people want to answer your question in their "absolute" manner to show off how wise they are in their own rights, but the wisest counsel you can take is mine: don't let them answer the question before you've had time to play the character and review it to its many possible answers. Don't let them turn Grendel's ambiguous statement into definitive existentialism or nihilism. Don't let them reduce Hamlet to a crazy guy. Don't let them co-opt this beautiful thing you've found just to stroke their own egos.

And you are right that risks can be taken in many ways, and you are probably good to get away from the gambling. I used it as an example, but I had other things in mind...

I am now utterly confused, and I have to ask: Is the anonymous 'these people' you are referring to the people that have posted in the thread?

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

That wouldn't make them anonymous, fool.

Pfft blame wrong word choice. Doesn't quite answer the question, however.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

It is enough of an answer for me. If it doesn't satisfy you, you are free to fabricate one of your own with no guarantee that it will be true or that you will know or that it will make a difference.

I think from the many answers you can determine that it is indeed possible to have both within one character, psycho And sometimes figuring out what Yossarin is saying is like figuring out art. Everyone's always going to have an opinion and the chances are (ironically?) it's not what the artist himself actually intends.

I say go for it mostly because I haven't seen any clerics of Tymora on Amia yet!

The beautiful thing about the responses I obtained is the finality that I realized that the inspirations of my character, no matter the direction it will head,will undoubtfully be partically defined by the intricately nuanced forces of freedom of thought and action, aka chaos versus wisdom which seems to tend to be more arbitrary and contrained, while finding a logical equilibruim between the two which makes sense and gives a meaning to my character's actions on a grander scale.

In other words, what I thought could be a "difficulty" could actually be exploited and become a "strength" of sorts.

I think i'm "getting there" , and thanks, seriously, I appreciate the input.

Bingo. My point precisely.