AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Teach a Man to Fish topic (Build topic):

well...with rogue levels I have 25 concentration which will be increased with Yaston's gear. I was also thinking to get extra smiting along with epic prowess at the last lvl.

I still like Mosh's suggestion for monk over rogue. Rogue paladins are so bizarre.

Monk works as well...I named rogue because my character is from the palahoom times thus he has rogue levels

Trying to figure out Wisdom & SF feats to shoot for to overcome most Evocation-related spell saves (mostly Reflex).
DC= 10+ Ability Modifier + Spell level+ SF feats.

If my Cleric has a Wis of 20 and ESF: Evocation feats, that would give a DC of 27 + Spell Level; DC= 34-36 for 7th-9th lvl spells.

An opponent would have to have a Base Reflex of around 22-26 to overcome those DCs. That seems pretty high but not out of the ballpark.

Is that a reasonable DC? I've never had an offensive caster before, so not sure what will/won't work. I really couldn't get the DC any higher with the build I'm thinking of, so not sure if I should just scrap the idea and not waste 3 feats on SF, or if it'll have a decent chance of doing some damage.

The DC is decent, but not good. Many people have evasion and with low reflex saves, they will get hit now and then, when not totally ignoring the damage on a succesful save. But it could work on some things/people, sure. Giants have lousy reflex saves, yuan ti don't. You just have to apply the right spells at the right time I believe.

Normally when building a caster you don't stop increasing your main stat (wis in this case) until at least reaching 26, preferrably higher (28, 30, ..32).

I can see it working some of the time, and if you really -can- spare three feats on it, then raise the sails. Otherwise I wouldn't bother, since you seem to want melee focus with just 20 wis.

Last edited by Vortex on Mon, Jan 09 2012, 21:38 PM, edited 4 times in total.

Ulir, thanks for the info. That's just what I needed to know. I'm going with a melee cleric so just pondering the effectiveness of SF feats.

I found this post in a search:

MoshingChris wrote:

Re: Mulan Cleric

If your going to go ranged get the extra attack by going 4 fighter in pre-epic will also give you enough feats to net improved critical on a crossbow for cool points.

25Cleric 4Fighter 1Rogue Split

And arm up with a Crossbow for coolpoints.

Start Scores pre-activator -> End build

13STR
9 DEX -> 8
10 CON
12 INT
17 WIS -> 18 + 7 + 1 = 26
13 CHA

1 - 13 Cleric: Extend Spell, Zen Archery, Max Spell, Spell Focus, Greater Spell focus, Rapid Reload
14 Fighter: Power Attack
15 Cleric: Div Shield
16 Fighter: Weapon Focus
17 Fighter:
18 Cleric: Div Might
19 Fighter: Improved Critical
20 Cleric:
21 Cleric: Epic Spell Focus
22 Cleric
23 Cleric
24 Cleric: Epic Weapon Focus
25 Cleric
26 Cleric
27 Cleric: Armor Skin, Epic Spell EMD
28 Cleric
29 Cleric
30 Bard: Great Wisdom 1 (If needed)

This is very much along the lines I was thinking, except it has much higher Wisdom (to make the SF feats effective I now realize).

I've reworked the build to this:

24 Cleric / 5 Fighter / 1 Bard
Mulan

13 STR
9 DEX -> 8
10 CON
14 INT
16 WIS -> 17 + 7 = 24
14 CHA

Pre-epic: 16 Cleric 4 Fighter
Feats: Blind fight, Extend Spell, Zen Arch, Maximize Spell, Divine Might, Divine Shield, SF/GSF: Evocation
Fighter feats: Power Attack, Impv'd Crit, Wpn Foc: longbow

Epic feats: ESF, EWF, Armor Skin, E. Prowess
Epic Cleric feat: EMD

Should I go 23 Cleric 6 Fighter 1 Bard instead, for the extra epic Fighter feat? I went 24 Cleric to be immune to Greater Dispelling...

edit: I removed Mobility and EWS feats, as they're not possible with this build. Guess I'll just have to suck up all the AOO's.

Making a grand summoner however always works, and it rocks! Love summoner types.

that is asiyas build and it works great... you can expect some high crits end game with your bow/crossbow as well as plenty of buffs for your party. I took being more cleric heavy though and stuck with the original concept.... with a certain cloak you will get 5 attacks per round... 6 if hasted... you will burn through arrows bolts like mad but then it also depends on your god and your domains.

Last edited by Ulir on Tue, Jan 10 2012, 0:44 AM, edited 1 time in total.

I just made a crossbow build. Should be quite neat and have plenty of damage.

Cleric 23/Fighter 6/Rogue 1

Race: Human

Str: 13
Dex: 8
Con: 9 - 10
Int: 14
Wis: 16 - 20
Cha: 14 - 16

HP: -
AB: 55 (buffed)
AC: 59 (buffed)

Skills (171):
Spot 33 ~ 100+ if I recall
Tumble 30
Discipline 32
Spellcraft 23
Open Lock 1
Concentration 30
Use Magic Device 22

1 C - Feats: Extend Spell, Blindfight
2 C
3 F - Feats: Weapon Focus: Crossbow, Power Attack
4 C - Wis: 17
5 C
6 C - Feat: Zen Archery
7 C
8 C - Wis: 18
9 C - Feat: Rapid Reload
10 C
11 C
12 C - Feat: Divine Might, Wis: 19
13 F - Feat: Improved Critical: Crossbow
14 C
15 C - Feat: Maximize Spell
16 C - Wis: 20
17 F
18 C - Feat: Divine Shield
19 C
20 F - Feat: Weapon Spec, Cha: 15
21 C - Feat: Epic Weapon Focus
22 C
23 C
24 C - Feat: Epic Skill Focus: Spot, Cha: 16
25 F
26 C
27 C - Feat: Mummy Dust
28 C - Feat: Armor Skin, Skill dump, Con: 10
29 F - Feat: Epic Weapon Spec, Skill dump
30 R - Feat: Epic Prowess, Skill dump

Edited for silly skill point.

1 rank in Disable Trap or Open Lock seems more useful than Appraise.

True dat!

Quote:

edit: I removed Mobility and EWS feats, as they're not possible with this build. Guess I'll just have to suck up all the AOO's.

if you are playing this build close enough to have an AOO because of your ranged attack you are doing it wrong... the main idea is to be a party buffer... then use your cleric attack buffs *prayer/divine power/battletide/divine favor* to boost your ab and keep your distance because your ranged damage will be pretty considerable with divine might... run up and heal when a party member is injured or to let loose an offensive cleric spell like EQ because your DC will be very nice... your AC will suck though lets face it.. no shield but divine shield will help with that in tight situations where you can't help but be surrounded... keep potions of haste on you as well just in case.

Just curious, but why do many of the Prestige classes go beyond the books in level advancement?
I noticed that some classes can be leveled higher than the allotted 10 levels for most Prestige.

I haven't played my Druid in ages cuz I went with a sling so she could use a shield and the damage output was virtually non-existent. I'd like to start over and I'm looking at the Cleric builds with SF: Evocation, looks like it'd work well on a Druid too.

But I epic fail at builds, so need some help. This time I think I'll go with a longbow.

Tell me how this sounds:

25 Druid 4 Fighter 1 Rogue

Human-Ffolk.

15 Str -> 14
14 Dex
9 Con -> 10
16 Wis ->17 + 9 = 26
13 Int-> 12
8 Cha

1-6 Druid: Luck of Heroes, Strong Soul, Blind Fight, Zen Archery
7 Fighter: Weapon Focus: longbow
8-17 Druid: Maximize spell, Spell Focus: Evoc, Greater Spell Focus: Evoc
18-20 Fighter: Improved Crit, KD, IKD
21-27 Druid: Epic Spell Focus: Evoc, Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Mummy Dust
28 Rogue
29-30 Druid: Great Wis I/II

My main concern is the low AC she'll have, I'm figuring around 42-45 AC.

Ulir wrote:

Str: 13
Dex: 8
Con: 9 - 10
Int: 14
Wis: 16 - 20
Cha: 14 - 16

I don't see your logic here, because you could make it:

STR 14
DEX 8
CON 10
INT 14
WIS 15 - 20
CHA 14 - 16

Otherwise it looks good, yus.

Sun Dog: You can't KD with a bow. Instead, you want to take Extend spell, Called shot, PBS, and Rapid shot. Naturally Luck of Heroes and Strong Soul must go. I'd also opt for ESF Spot and Armour skin over the Great wisdom feats.

if making a druid its worth considering not multi-classing at all.. your companion will be much better.. true you miss out on 6ac and a fourth attack

That's not the point. The point is that Sun Dog wants to try out a different kind of druid build. And I don't agree with that poop about pureclassing being best ever. Besides, the build will be a slightly nerfed caster variant with added ranged weapon competence. Purty as any.

that's why i said its worth considering... when it comes to pure builds I agree with you on every other build except for a druid... and only because a level 30 druids companion is just bad ass...

I'm trying to develop a Wiz/SD build, and really struggling.

The big question is: Is the Shade Lord (SD 10) or Epic Shade Lord (SD 13) worth taking the extra SD levels? I've read some posts saying the summons is pretty weak.

How does the Epic Shade Lord compare to the Epic Mummy Dust?

That'll determine whether I go more Wizard or more SD.

There's no comparison, the SD summon is a fun toy, the mage summons are actualy for "fighting"

25 wiz/4 sd/1 bard could be fun. No HiPS, but you get Shadowjump, Shadow of the Void and EMD.

Ah, ok, that makes it easier then. Pity, I was digging the concept of the Shade Lord, but if it's just a toy, I can find other toys.
I do like the sound of Shadow of the Void....I'll have to look into that one.

23/6/1 Hello!

GreatPigeon wrote:

24 Wiz/6 SD

Fixed, there's no need for the bard/rogue level unless you want umd and/or discipline ;p
Plus, 24 Wiz is better CL and immunity to Greater Dispelling, which is fantastic. Since you are doing wiz, you don't need to worry about skillpoints so cross-classing isn't a big deal to get the hide/ms ranks.

Quote:

Fixed, there's no need for the bard/rogue level unless you want umd and/or discipline

It's so you don't need to horrifically crossclass your rogue skills and UMD, and Discipline because yes yu want them.

GreatPigeon wrote:

23/6/1 Hello!

That won't grant you Shadow of the Void. HiPSing mages are cheesy anyway.

Being able to shadowjump can grant your RP enough shadow spice. So it's an alternative to the classic HiPSter build.

I was wrong about Shadow of Void. Mind you when I saw 23/6/1 the 1 is ranger.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

Fixed, there's no need for the bard/rogue level unless you want umd and/or discipline

It's so you don't need to horrifically crossclass your rogue skills and UMD, and Discipline because yes yu want them.

On a wiz you have a ton of skillpoint available so I wouldn't think that would be a problem. And Discipline is silly, why are you in combat? But that doesn't mean I'm not wrong haha

Shadow of the void can basically help you solo practically any boss.

Quote:

And Discipline is silly, why are you in combat?

Huh? Discipline is one of the best skills in the game as a mage. Getting knocked down is pretty much the only way you can die.

Emd is so much cooler and you take ranger for the xtra spell focus

Needled247 wrote:

Huh? Discipline is one of the best skills in the game as a mage. Getting knocked down is pretty much the only way you can die.

I dunno, my mage just never gets knocked down so I don't think of it being a problem XD

I take disipline on my sorcerer for just incase I slip up and get hit in melee. Normally kiting works best. Cast, run, cast, run, cast, run rince and repeat untill they are dead.

Naivatkal wrote:

GreatPigeon wrote:

24 Wiz/6 SD

Fixed, there's no need for the bard/rogue level unless you want umd and/or discipline ;p
Plus, 24 Wiz is better CL and immunity to Greater Dispelling, which is fantastic. Since you are doing wiz, you don't need to worry about skillpoints so cross-classing isn't a big deal to get the hide/ms ranks.

You're silly. Stop being silly.

The best SD wizard build is 23 Wizard/6 SD/1 Bard. Who cares about cross-classing skills, you're a wizard. You have an absurd amount of skill points. Discipline and UMD are incredible and you will always feel a pain in their absence.

Mind you, if you wanted to play a wizard with a focus on SD abilities, you could try 20 Wizard/10 SD with Epic Dodge. It's a gimmick build obviously, but gimmick builds are awesome. Down with the cookie-cutters!

Your silly Sune

23 Wizard 1 Master Scout 6 SD is obviously the way to go now. You can easily afford the four feats since you would take Skill Focus spot anyway because the SD wizard just adores being the Counter-Stealth-Stealther.

Nice try, but 1 level of Ranger is still superior to 1 level of Master Scout on a mage. Both receive a bonus feat, both get Discipline. Tumble is irrelevant. Ranger doesn't need to take a superfluous feat of Skill Focus: Listen. So it comes down to whether you want an extra feat or 10% movement speed... I know which one I'd take.

And Bard is still better than Ranger or Master Scout.

Hrmm? No it wasn't a try at all, my counter stealth guy has maxed listen and spot. Thats why he's the counter stealh guy. And because I'm not limited to taking a superflous spell focus with the ranger level Master Scout is much superior.

Epic Feats look like this as I remember it:

ESF x 1, Epic Mage Armor, Epic Spot, EMD, Great Int, Armor Skin.

And the ten percent move speed is literally that good on anyone who goes the HiPS route on a counter stealther because you are ten percent faster than the other guy in stealth should he also be a counter stealthing bloke.

Time to join the mosh pit!

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Nice try, but 1 level of Ranger is still superior to 1 level of Master Scout on a mage. Both receive a bonus feat, both get Discipline. Tumble is irrelevant. Ranger doesn't need to take a superfluous feat of Skill Focus: Listen. So it comes down to whether you want an extra feat or 10% movement speed... I know which one I'd take.

And Bard is still better than Ranger or Master Scout.

While most people wouldn't want to take 1 (Whathaveyou) at early on because you can't skill dump stuff to 30+, if you take 16 wizard, 1 ranger, 3 SD pre-epic, you can have 3 attacks per round, while no other combination will let you have a third attack per round with SD with this much Wizard Pre-epic because of 10 Hide requirement.

If you're aiming for Greater Spell Focus: (What not) for eventual Epic Spell Focus: (Whathaveyou) for EMD/EDK, this will be an asset as well since you can take Greater Spell Focus over Favored Enemy at pre-epic for Ranger 1 Bonus Feat.

Granted, this is only a good suggestion if you want to use physical attacks and not rely purely on spells... Although spellcasters on Amia sure like to just stand there after they wasted their spells in parties...

Ranger, MS and Bard are pretty much equally crispy for the build, depending on what your aims are with the character. Moshing and Sune are silly and driven by some mad urge to prove themselves right, although deep in their hearts they know that both are right and that arguing is pointless and that Jebus loves all. But for the record, effectively the Ranger level yields just another extra epic feat, meaning you can spend it so that it isn't superfluous. And yes, the movement speed bonus is perfectly pretty.

Tomato's idea is intriguing, though then I'd find some other class than Ranger, because it's rendered silly by not getting the skill dump. There's a certain shortbow with a sneak bonus to make the damage output less shameful, too.

I lied. Bard works best and Jesus doesn't love you.

MoshingChris wrote:

Hrmm? No it wasn't a try at all, my counter stealth guy has maxed listen and spot. Thats why he's the counter stealh guy. And because I'm not limited to taking a superflous spell focus with the ranger level Master Scout is much superior.

Epic Feats look like this as I remember it:

ESF x 1, Epic Mage Armor, Epic Spot, EMD, Great Int, Armor Skin.

And the ten percent move speed is literally that good on anyone who goes the HiPS route on a counter stealther because you are ten percent faster than the other guy in stealth should he also be a counter stealthing bloke.

...you realise you could have taken that ESF feat on your ranger level, and you'd have been in exactly the same situation as with Master Scout, except come out one feat richer? Because nearly every mage takes ESF, it's never a superfluous feat. And if you're taking some sort of build that doesn't bother with Spell Focus, then you'll need one fewer feat in epic... and that can go in Bard for UMD.

If you're really that attached to having a speed advantage in counter stealth, then you have GS which gives an even bigger advantage in speed and guarantees you'll always spot them before they see you.

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Ranger, MS and Bard are pretty much equally crispy for the build, depending on what your aims are with the character. Moshing and Sune are silly and driven by some mad urge to prove themselves right, although deep in their hearts they know that both are right and that arguing is pointless and that Jebus loves all. But for the record, effectively the Ranger level yields just another extra epic feat, meaning you can spend it so that it isn't superfluous. And yes, the movement speed bonus is perfectly pretty.

Tomato's idea is intriguing, though then I'd find some other class than Ranger, because it's rendered silly by not getting the skill dump. There's a certain shortbow with a sneak bonus to make the damage output less shameful, too.

I lied. Bard works best and Jesus doesn't love you.

I DO WHAT I WANT

I've come up with a spellsword build that has 57 AC and 41 AB.

Are those adequate stats? The AC seems decent; I'm wondering about the AB, will it hit often enough to do much damage, I'm thinking about PvM here.

I have no idea what the epic levels are like.

41 AB should be fine for PvM. I am pretty sure my main rocks mid to high 30s and he hits most of the things. I can't be entirely sure, though, because I don't go soloing in the Abyss, but he can solo the spires and flayers (though the latter is a PITA).

Let someone else comment, though, haha.

with 50 ab you should run Power attack alla day.
With 45 you can't.
With 40 you are having trouble hitting your third or fourth attack

Do i need to say more?

Naivatkal & Svensk, thanks for the info. Very helpful. Looks like I'm in the ballpark.

While working on this spellsword build, I was looking over the Spells sidebar and noticed the following for Greater Sanctuary:

"While under Greater Sanctuary, the caster receives 100% spell failure, CL*5 Temporary Hit Points and 90% Movement Speed Increase. The duration has been changed to CL/6 Rounds. "

Can that duration be right? That would only give 5 rounds for a pure-build lvl 30 Wiz.

it got nerfed the hell out of it since it was abused all the time.

5 rounds is plenty of time, that's 30 seconds to run away and resposition yourself.

Opustus is just pissed because Sune and I argue on a higher plane of existence whilst he's stuck in Finland. . .

You expose me. It's cold.

I was always wandering what's BoT page ice storm form?
I get that it changes the type of damage, but why is it good? I've never seen any changes in the damage frankly. Maybe I'm wrong.

I always wonder if the piercing version deal less damage to the surrounding than the bludgeon one for RP reasons! But ... Most things are more resistant to slashing and piercing over bludgeon so don't know how helpful it is combat wise xD;;;

The Ice Storm page is purposefully underwhelming due to how good the spell already is.

Quote:

I always wonder if the piercing version deal less damage to the surrounding than the bludgeon one for RP reasons

As Tomato Sword has correctly noted, there could of course be critical RP differences between jagged spikes of ice, and large stones of ice.

TormakSaber wrote:

As Tomato Sword has correctly noted, there could of course be critical RP differences between jagged spikes of ice, and large stones of ice.

A fine point. Thanks.

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