So, I'm making this thread basically to discuss lore and how shapes like those granted by the feats: Undead Shape, Outsider Shape and Construct Shape as well as abberant forms can (or can't) work for a druidic character.

At their core a druid is supposed to be at one with nature, an extension of nature's will, and as a result he despises things unnatural. Their hatred of unnatural creatures means they would undoubtedly hate Driders, Mindflayers and any of the undead Undead Shape grants the ability to shift into. On the other hand, druids can cast Finger of Death, which is as negative energy based as any ability the Undead Shape forms provide.

A druid violates his oaths if he wears metal armour, so turning into a creature composed of worked metal plating is dubious. The Stone Golem obviously fits a druid just fine, but the Demonflesh Golem involves turning into bits of fiends unnaturally stitched together.

Extraplanar creatures are not of the natural world, and while there's nothing saying a druid must hate and attack planar creatures, druids prefer wordly things like trees and shrubs and bushes and stuff.


I roleplay Catkin as changing her shape so that she can be closer to nature. I have trouble really justifying using the Mindflayer, but it's totes useful so it's hard to leave out. I think if pressed Catkin would say she wanted to learn of the underdark, considering it to be as much a part of the world as the surface, and uses Drider and Mindflayer forms to be closer to that part of the world (Though why she wouldn't change into a Slyth or Gloura is beyond me, maybe she just asn't found any yet). I literally have no idea how I would roleplay turning into a vampire or some kind of planar creature to be closer to nature, or for any other reason that would be acceptable for a druid.

So I'm really looking for suggestions as to how a druid might roleplay the epic shifter shapes, or if they should take them at all? Granted the dragon shape and stone golem shape are just fine to change into because you can always argue dragons are part of nature and so are rocks, but the problem with taking Construct Shape as an epic feat means you're reasonably restricted to just one of the three given forms. Outsider Shape and Undead Shape grant you forms which at the very least aren't natural, and worse, are completely contrary to nature.

I understand that the shifter class can be taken by both druidic characters and non-druids only taking druid levels as a pre-req, so the epic forms will always have a use for someone, I'm just wondering if they can be useful to a druid without compromising their oaths and values. I've also done a little searching and found that druids are allowed to use the Undead Shape forms without a DM coming and making them fallen, which is a big part of what I want to discuss here, but the thread I found doesn't really explain how you would go about roleplaying it other than that you might get funny looks from other druids (and possibly killed).

One final point I wanted to mention was the way caster level is decided for shifters, as it takes druid levels into account. This means that if one were to make a non-drudic shifter and wish to focus on spells, such as Harm, Chain Lightning or any of the Rakshasa spells, they would have to take 10 levels of druid which they couldn't make good use of. It seems that in the case of the undead shape, particularly for the Vampire (As weapon master or assassin would work well with Risen Lord or Spectre), the major draw of the form is Harm, but it seems unlikely to me that a druid would take Undead Shape, so in order to make most use of the form, you have to make most waste of the class, which seems a bit counter-intuitive. It'd be nice if you could take levels of shifter without any druid levels, but I'm getting off topic as I don't want to turn this into a discussion about changes.


Anyway, sorry this post is soo long and thanks for any input you can give.

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Zeskija Inalka - Catkin Meadowleaf - Xyme Thanas'ka

I'm not sure what this post's point is. Of course you can't RP a full druid and turn into undead. What do you want me to tell you?

No offense but... this is your 3rd topic like this, and... urr. Well. Yeah.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Actually the other two were discussing mechanical balance. This is strictly about roleplay, and it's not just about Undead Shape.

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Zeskija Inalka - Catkin Meadowleaf - Xyme Thanas'ka

I think you pretty much answered the question yourself. If a particular Shifter shape (or shapes) is in direct violation with your PC's Druidic Oaths then it's probably not a good idea to go shifting into that particular shape (or shapes).

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"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III

Well, what I'm mainly looking for is the opinions of people who play druids / shifters or have experience with playing those classes in terms of what druidic oaths and shifting mean to your character, what are the limits or the methodology your druid might hold (ends justify the means, closeness to nature comes first, whatever is the case for your character), and if you play a non-druidic shifter, do you play the shapechanging as an expression of your character's soul or more like a strategic ability to disguise and make use of uncommon abilities?

I'd quite like to hear what Malandria or Elana's players think as well, regarding druids who shift into unnatural shapes. I've talked a little with Mal already and her player says Outsider shape would be good for Catkin, but I'm interested in what the character would think of that and overall grove policy toward it. Like, if Catkin suddenly shapeshifted into a demonflesh golem would that be IC cause for her to leave the grove as being too far away from its teachings?

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Zeskija Inalka - Catkin Meadowleaf - Xyme Thanas'ka

Personally, I don't even see how taking undead or construct shapes is ~possible~, even with the "because magic" logic. I also agree that you answered your own question, there really isn't a way to reconcile some forms with ~most~ druidic religions.

All fine and dadny to ask what the players think of it here on the forum in GD, but



Best to have that conversation in-game, as it's relating to how their -characters- think and feel about it, as well as relating to in-character policies.

at first I thought he was asking to upgrade the shapes a druid gets.. if you want to be a bad ass shape changer we have shifter for that.

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"It is by the holy beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning, it is by Java alone that I set my mind in motion."

Um, when it comes to rulings, why do you care about the opinion of anyone buy a DM?

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

That was kinda my thought. This seems a really clear cut case...

I'm really just looking for a friendly exchange of ideas and opinions, nothing official, no great issue to solve, no line to draw, you just say, "Well I think it's okay so long as you shapeshift into undead to infiltrate and kill undead" or "I roleplay that shifting is what my character feels at the time and is entirely emotion based, so I can be anything and call it natural because it's all an expression of emotion" or whatever your opinion is.

But I guess if you really want an issue to put a DM ruling on... uhm.. Here:


I read another thread, here: viewtopic.php?p=733893#p733893


Which seems to say the opposite? I'm guessing BrainSplitter used to be a DM at some point?

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Zeskija Inalka - Catkin Meadowleaf - Xyme Thanas'ka

It's very difficult for me to imagine reasons for any Druid to take an undead shape. It's a little easier when it comes to certain aberrations.

When you shift into forms of those types as a Druid, you should have a damn good reason for it. Consider also the God you follow into the matter. There aren't very many good reasons to use either shapes as a Druid. To put it lightly, you're risking your ass every time you do it, especially with undead.

Always consider your options. If you have a reasonable alternative to using those shapes for something, you should not be using the shape. I can't think of a single reason why a Druid would use undead form, as it stands. I can think of 1 or 2 good reasons why a Druid might use an aberration shape for a very brief time. If you think you've thought of a good one and want to roll the dice, god speed to you. You're risking a fall though, I'll tell you that much.

You have to remember that undead and aberrations are the two most hated beast types for Druids. They are the bane of the Druid.

Also, Brainsplitter had a very poor understanding of Druids, imo. So yes, we're contradicting him.

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

Oh good!

As Gunz mentioned, Undead isn't the only thing. If you're a druid and you turn into an Illithid or a drider, don't be surprised people go "*GASSSSSPPPPPPPP*" It's nice that Amia gives shifter variety so it's not 99.9% evil shapes that comes with NWN default though.

How does Construct Shape work being a druid? I can't imagine any druid of mine approving any of the construct options that we get from default NWN. I know not all constructs are made from binding an earth elemental forcefully, but! Am curious to know.

When it comes to constructs, it's really not all that risk, even though it might be pretty distasteful in most Druids opinions. The main point is the materials used, not the soul being ripped. The soul ripping might be a serious issue to some Druids, but certainly not all. When a Druid summons an elemental, they're forcefully bringing an unwilling elemental to the material to serve them.

The issue boils down to two points: one of the soul and one of unwilling servitude/slavery. The latter is not an important one to the Druidic path. Some Druids are okay with unwilling servitude and slavery and others aren't. It's on an personal and individual basis though. The issue of the soul is a bit more complicated. For the sake of not diving into such a broad topic, we'll stick to the context of the question. The use of souls in constructs isn't important when referring to the Druidic path. On a personal and individual basis, it varies like the other issue.

Fun fact: the use of constructs is actually a common practice among Druids. But there's a specific kind of construct that they commonly use.

Edit: Also, I just remembered that it's actually the Golem monster type that uses the earth golem soul, not the construct. As far as I'm aware, the construct doesn't use souls, but I may be wrong.

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

I was under the impression that people usually responded to shifting/likely shifter activity with (excessive and somewhat forced) apathy.

Anyway. I was gonna say mostly what Gunz said. Although I thought it was an "elemental spirit" which was bound into golems (the ones in the MM anyway)? Well, I suppose that could well mean a soul, and there's no reason I should assume it's a decorporealised elemental (though that could count as a soul anyway). It is specifically an elemental, though. I think. And while construct and golem aren't strictly interchangeable terms (All golems are constructs, but the reverse is not true), since we can't shapeshift into other forms of constructs it's probably not relevant in this particular case.

But yeah, I played a Malarite druid so my perspective is a little skewed. Stone golem seems fine, because you're basically just transforming into a big block of stone with some magical wards - not much different from an earth elemental really? Iron golem is a little iffy, but you're not building a great ugly unnatural forge, burning fuel, digging up earth and smelting the ore to make your metal body, so on a practical level it shouldn't be a big deal. The demonflesh one is just kind of weird, but since there's no real outsider-intrusion onto the material plane it should be kind of okay. I guess the problem is that you feel less connected to nature by taking a metal/fiendish form, it would be kind of the same deal for the aberration. So regardless you need a good reason (stone golem is probably still okay), "using the weapon of the enemy against the enemy of nature" probably does suffice. Justification is a bit easier for Malarite druids I think. I mean, you still need to revere nature and all that, but a lot of your focus lies in the cycle of the hunt, savagery and whatnot.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

.. When you turn into a golem, you're not conjuring an elemental into yoursef.



This is up for discussion, imo. There should be a way for casters to summon willing creatures.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

I know. I misread Tomatos question. I thought s/he asked about constructs, not the shape when s/he said:





I agree. I'm talking about the default way elementals are summoned, which is the way most Druids do it.

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

I agree here. I can see some druids not wanting to do this forcefully but rather summon a willing creature. Especially the more good aligned druids.

Same goes for other casters. I just can't see a Lawful Good paladin/cleric brutally forcing a celestial to serve his/her will.

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Yeah, I'd like to think my Avenger isn't there against her will.

I think the bottom line should be that if the mechanics facilitate and indeed encourage it, there must be a lore explanation for it. It's a little problematic because Shifter requirements were implemented bad in NWN, but it's what we have. If Shifters are Druids by default (not by necessity, but that concession shouldn't be the basis of judgement), and Shifters are exclusively given access to an Undead Shape feat, then it sure stands to reason that they are meant to be using it. Why would there be an undead shape if no one in vanilla NWN could use it? It's absurd design.

It's always a little difficult to decide between NWN mechanics and FR lore, but I think in cases like this the easiest way would be to opt for the mechanics - like Ron did in his post quoted above. Reserving undead shape for those few non-druid Shifters who take 5 levels only to pretend they don't have the levels and refrain from using any features of the class seems like a waste of resources. If it doesn't sit well with some preconception of lore, then reconciling the lore is the more reasonable course of action.

For sure, the undead shape doesn't fit every druid. There ought to be a pretty good explanation for choosing to use it. But we should assume it makes sense for some druids, or else it has no reason to exist (at least insofar as Shifter is a Druid-exclusive class, even if only mechanically). It may be in violation of some druids' religious oaths, but it can't be categorically in violation of all of them or it would have never been invented.

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Not a good enough method. By that logic, you're saying Druids can summon the undead mummydust. Compromising the integrity and foundation of the Druid class is not the answer.

In any case, the answers have been given.

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

As I said, it's difficult and ambigious. But in this case, the deciding factor is "exclusively". There's nobody else who gets Undead Shape than druids in NWN. Why would it be there if it wasn't meant for druids? That's like saying priests of a certain deity with the correct domains shouldn't use some of the domain traits - such as summoning the Death domain creature before it was modified for each alignment/god. Why would the god grant such a summon in his domain, if he didn't mean for it to be used? The difference to Mummy Dust is that's it's a general epic feat available to many people, much like Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and just happens to be available to druids - both are off-limits, but I would tweak lore if they were available to Druids only.

In fact, the Shadowdancer summon is a precedent case: it's clearly an undead creature by lore, no getting around that fact. It's the Shade or Shadow or whatever described in Monster Manual, with no special traits. Yet because it was assumed that goodly Ranger/Shadowdancers and the like should be meant to use their summon without being depraved villains in violation of their faith, it was homebrewed that it's actually not undead, and not evil. It has also been said in Amia that the shape of the undead is not undead in the most fundamental and offensive way of defiling a corpse and animating dead matter with negative energy.

To be honest, I find both explanations a little wishy washy. I would much rather be blunt about it, and say some druids do heretical stuff for unorthodox purposes and for some reason get away with it divine-wise. Because that's clearly what happens mechanically, and it creates villains and conflict instead of endless IC quibbles about being politically correct. It's a difference of mentality, I guess: you want to protect the integrity and foundation of the druid class, whereas I would much rather there be anarchy and mockery of all classes for the sake of a more interesting story.

Two answers have been given, and Ron's is just as authoritative. His calls aren't moot just because he isn't a DM anymore. You can of course change the ruling (and personally I think you should), but you probably wouldn't want to do it without thorough discussion and investigation, and a vote followed by a public annoucement. When you make calls like this, they need to be posted in the R&L forum because there's doubtless old players out there following the old policy and not reading this topic. Maybe that's a little overkill, because I personally prefer things be done bureucratically and formally, but I still doubt a passing mention in a forum topic is enough to inform everyone of a ruling. But that's not the point. The point is that this topic is only starting, and making a ruling after so few points have been argued is premature. You couldn't possibly make a call twenty posts into a topic, with two DMs and very few players contributing.

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Answers and rulings can change. Therefore his call is moot.

Just like your opinion on this, since you're not a DM.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

You heard it here, folks. I think that's all that has to be said.

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The fact remains that Mummydust was clearly and intentionally put in as available to Druids. Amia has it so Shifters don't have to be Druids to be shifters, thereby allowing the use of undead shapes without worry of the Druid vs. undead situation. This, effectively, makes it so that undead shapes are not just exclusive to Druids. That's the Amian solution to the problem, just like the Shadowdancer thing.

And like I said, if you think you have a good reason for using undead shapes when you're a Druid, god speed. But you better have a damn good reason when you're asked. In short, it's probably a good idea that Druids not use the undead shapes.

People can keep trying to argue a reason for undead shape use. I've heard tons of reasons from various people over the years. None of them were good ones, imo.

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

My Corellon following cleric can mechanically cast Summon Greater Undead. Does that mean it's okay?

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Remember when I knew a boxer, baby

I agree, basically. I do think the line has to be drawn somewhere, and I personally would draw it at exclusive features. I do not like the idea that PCs who pretend not to be druids get access to more boons than those who actually RP their druid levels, so the situation seems unsatisfactory. But I do agree undead shape for druids is unfitting, just as it is for a Shadowdancer/Druid to summon the Shade. I just don't think it's impossible, because clearly the mechanics encourage it. The fact that non-Druids can be Shifters on Amia is a tweak, a concession, and doesn't make Undead Shape any better of a design decision from Bioware in the first place.

You get it from your domain, DerkDerkistan? If so, you have the wrong domain. If not, you have problems with reading comprehension.

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It was put in as available to Druids because Epic Spells aren't classed as Divine or Arcane. They're their own thing separate from everything else. That, and Bioware isn't really consistent at all about their enforcement of anything related to divine mechanics. As a Good aligned caster you're barred from casting Evil spells and as a Lawful caster barred from casting Chaos spells. So a Good aligned caster can't cast Prtection from Good and an Evil caster can't cast Protection vs Evil. Summons get into this, too.

Undead Shape was added to NWN for one reason: The devs thought it was cool. So they added it to the shapeshifting classes. We just kind of have to deal with it.

If you're looking for real specifics: The only epic hshape you can take without shifter levels is Dragon. I guess that's an indirct implication of how much Bioware thought being able to turn into Outsiders, Undead, and Constructs related to actually being a Druid. So there's your answer right there to a small degree. PnP shifters don't get undead forms period so going off the usual line of "Undead are bad" is perfectly fine.



They don't. IF you go the "Im not a druid" route, you get: No spells, no companion. In return you get to use undead form and etc.



Refrain from calling our players stupid because you feel the need to argue something when you no longer DM or play. You've had several warnings about this, and a few forum bans, I believe.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Very simply put: Bioware is not infallible. That's why the many people who have helped make Amia what it is over the years and presently behind the scenes have changed scripts, skins, RP function to mechanics, etc.

Bioware didn't make a perfect game, mechanically or lore wise. We tweak it to fit what we envision for Amia. That's what makes Amia Amia.

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

Yes, obviously, I mentioned it because people seem to think Undead Shape is just something Druids get, and it's not. You specifically have to take 10 levels of shifter.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

It has nothing to do with reading comprehension. It's the same thing you're saying. Create Greater Undead is a cleric only spell. Undead Shape is a shifter Only thing. If you're using reasoning that it must be okay because one class is the only one to have access to a certain thing, then it must be okay for it to be like that any other time.

What you're failing to understand is that while in NWN, shifters must mechanically take druid levels, it's not the case in FR lore. Amia has solved that to an extent by saying that, even though you have druid levels on your character sheet, you are not a druid. A druid should not use Undead Shape. A shifter can.

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Remember when I knew a boxer, baby

I'm not "failing to understand" it. I'm saying it's not an elegant solution. It's probably the most awkward work-around on the server. There wouldn't be need for explanations and exceptions if you just accepted the game for what it is (or mechanically tweaked it). I really don't want to encourage any more non-Druid Shifters (until we release the class of its druid-requirement, which probably won't happen) by giving them extra boons for looking ugly on the Character Sheet. Using Druid levels only to access Shifter is a grudging concession to work around bad NWN design, not something beautiful.

You say the spell is a cleric-only thing. That's right, and therefore it should be possible for some clerics to use it. But not all clerics. It's not a Cleric of Corellon -exclusive feature. Therefore there's no need for some clerics of Corellon to be able to use it. As a cleric feature, it's not redundant if some clerics (of certain deities) can use it. Speaking in terms of core NWN, the Undead Shape is a druid-exclusive. Therefore some druids (though not necessarily druids of Mielikki) should be able to use it. I assure you, my argument is consistent. The problem is the one you pointed out: that not all Shifters have to be Druids IC. That's true and that's why I'm not adamant about this at all; I seem to agree with Gunz in practice (and Tormak's last post was actually very reasonable). But I do think the bottom line should be that the mechanics are what they are, and either we change them or go with them. We can't wish them away, and trying to do so creates confusion and topics like this.

If this is a ruling, it needs to be posted in Rules & Lore where anyone can check it. But if we post all such rulings there, it will soon become a maze. And therefore it's better to keep the rulings to a minimum; certainly better than to keep making them, but not document them anywhere. That's actually the main reason I think we should go by the mechanics: to keep the game as simple as possible, and keep R&L both up-to-date and clean at the same time. The more exceptions and technicalities we add, the harder that will be.

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bzzzt wrong requires Shifter levels ergo Shifter exclusive



Consistently wrong, according to the current ruling and the DMs of the server.

You want to go with the mechanics so bad: Druids by mechanics can't take Undead Shape. Shifters can. Ergo Druids cannot use Undead Shape and Shifters can, i.e. "If you are a shifter but not a Druid you can use undead shape."

You don't even really have a point, you're being contrite to be contrite, and insulting our players when you do it. Please stop. I mean, you say things like "I really don't want to encourage non druid shifters". That's DM speak. That's DM chatter. Iron, when you start playing again, then you can have a real say in the community again. Until then, you're a window peeper and an armchair diplomat and what you do is get in the way of what we're trying to do solely because your personal philosophy is that nothing should pass without miles of red tape an arguments.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

It's good that you agree with Gunz because he's right.

But you can't look at my scenario as a "Cleric of Corellon" and not as a "cleric" while at the same time not using "Druid/Shifter of Silvanus" instead of "druid/shifter". Circumstances are the most important thing, as Gunz pointed out. A cleric may be able to summon undead, but a cleric of Corellon should not or he will fall. A druid/shifter may be able to turn into an undead, but a druid/shifter of Silvanus should not or he will fall. That's all the correlation that was made.

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Remember when I knew a boxer, baby

That's the entire point. What you describe is not possible in NWN. On Amia we get to pretend it is, but it's not. All Druids aren't Shifters, but all Shifters are Druids; hence something exclusive to Shifters is exclusive to Druids, though not vice versa. It's funny how you try to point out I'm wrong in the technical part of my argument, when I probably am not. Trust me, your logic is simply mistaken. Irrespective of how you want to rule for Amia, the logical structure of my argument is sound (as far as I can see; it may be shown to be otherwise, but nobody's done that yet).

I'm pretty sure I get to say what I want to encourage on Amia. It's an open server, we're all welcome to try to direct it the way we want. Perhaps once you start listening to me I'll start playing again (which is probably all the more reason not to listen). I left Amia because it couldn't become the server I wanted, but I'm still hoping some day it might. Why is it wrong of me to chase after the Amia I want to see? It's not like I'm denying you that same right; we all get to throw our weight around and persuade others, whether or not it's the status quo or something else we want. You don't have to feel persuaded by my opinions, but I like to think that many people are persuaded by a good argument when they see one.

DerkDerkistan: there's still a difference. "A cleric may be able to summon undead, but a cleric of Corellon should not or he will fall. A druid/shifter may be able to turn into an undead, but a druid/shifter of Silvanus should not or he will fall." This is consistent (though I'm not sure what Silvanus would say, that's a lore matter) but it' not what you were saying before. I did not say all druids should turn into undead. I said that some must be capable of it, because the possibility exists. Just like some clerics are capable of casting the spell, some druids are capable of performing the transformation. Clerics of Corellon and (probably) druids of Silvanus are not among these some, but they exist. Create Greater Undead is not a cleric-of-Corellon-exclusive, like I said, and neither is Undead Shape a druid-of-Silvanus-exclusive. The spectrum is broader than that. Because clerics get the spell exclusively, it's OK for some to use it - not for all to use it. The problem is when there's a trait, like Undead Shape, only available to Druids and no one else (still keeping in mind that all Shifters are Druids, mechanically), then surely one of those Druids(/Shifters) must be able to use it or NOBODY could.

And it makes no sense to introduce a feat nobody can use.

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Stopped here.

Correction: On Amia we say it is, so it is.

End.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Wrong



~



~



~

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Congratulations on missing the entire point of this discussion.

You're dancing around the point again and again and still don't see it (or just refuse to comment on it intentionally). The point is that awkward exceptions that go against mechanics are a necessary evil, and shouldn't be the basis for judging and policing vanilla content. Shifters being Druids is the norm. That's the basis of this discussion. Everything else is an Amia-specific exception. While such exceptions are cool, this whole argument is about supporting the principle that they should affect vanilla content as little as possible and that all extra rulings should be kept to a minimum so that documentation is easy and aesthetically pleasing. If the issue was clear and clean, this topic wouldn't exist in the first place (which would be a shame because it's very enjoyable, but a perfectly organized collection of all Amia rulings would be even better).

Show me a character file of an actual Amian PC who has Shifter levels and Undead Shape without Druid levels. Then you will be correct. Until then, I am.

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No, you are not. Because it is DM ruling for ages that you are allowed to play a shifter without RPing the druid levels on the takeback that you are not allowed to use the companion and spells and cannot use druid only items unless you have UMD.

This has been in for ages. And it is a RP server and not an "we nitpick on silly NWN mechanics server". If the DM say it is valid to go the PnP way here then it is, no matter how often you say "but the chara sheet sayz!!!!"

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That's not what we're discussing. I know that rule. You are allowed not to RP the druid levels. But you HAVE them, and NWN designers put them there. It was a bad decision, but it's one we have to deal with. We can deal with it by making a collection of obscure rulings (as is the case), by going with the mechanics as the bottom line, or by changing the mechanics. We've chosen the first option. I just wish those rulings didn't have to be obscure: they need to be compiled into R&L in such a way that any new player or DM refreshing their memory on previous calls can access them whenever they want to without having to perform a difficult forum search. Making such law codexes is a lot of work for a little gain, I admit. That's why in practice I believe it's better to keep the number of such rulings to a minimum, and not add any negative restrictions where they're not absolutely necessary.

It's not very dangerous to have a poorly documented rule that you may RP Shifter without RPing Druid; it's just an additional option that doesn't subject you to any sanctions. It's a completely different rule to say you can't play vanilla NWN Druid/Shifter with Undead Shape, because every player who has not read this topic or known the Amian druid scene will assume it to be the norm. That's when they put themselves at risk of invalidating their character and facing sanctions (possibly a Fall widget without the option for free rebuild, for example). If you introduce rules that incriminate people, you must make those rules available. "I didn't know" is a valid excuse if there's no way to have known in the first place.

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And we did.



Q.E.D.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

As this discussion has turned into something that I think is really just a practice in cyclical logic (or complete lack there of) I'm going to lock it down.

Iron, you're arguing for the sake of argument again. Please stop. I'll not be warning you again.

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"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III

Silvanus is -thee- Druid god. He would never approve of Undead. Don't let the TN alignment fool you.

I'll paraphrase what I think this needs to end on.

The mechanics on NWN are not infallible, like Tormak and I have stated already. We, as DM's, decided that Shifters can be Shifters and not Druid/Shifters if they want to, so that the Shifter class doesn't have so many unnecessary restrictions and the possibility for versatile Shifters is there. Undead shapes are fine for Shifters, but not for Druid/Shifters. That is the solution to the mechanical problem. If you don't like it, I don't know what to tell you. This is what we've come to. At least for now.

Shifters now have much broader freedoms, while we are able to maintain the integrity of the Druid class. You want anarchy, as you stated. I don't and I doubt most of the team does in any fashion. Personally, I'm not trying to choke Druids into submission to how I believe a perfect Druid should be. If that were the case, I think I'd fall every single Druid on the server, including my Druid, because she's not meant to be perfect. There's plenty of room for creativity, but there are lines that can not be crossed. Druids with undead are one of those lines.

Shifter + Undead/Undead Shape = Okay

Druid + Shifter + Undead/Undead Shape = No go

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth