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Hin aren't Gypsies.

Not all, but on Amia, have you met the Harlequins? Gypsies.

The Ghostwise are a Hin equivalent of gypsies, I believe. Or at least they are wanderers.

I think a better term to use is just nomad. There are plenty of nomad cultures in every major race, you just gotta look around. When we say gypsy here, I think it gets blended in with our RL equivalent of the historical Romani people, to which the closest equivalent would be the Gurs, I find. Though there are unnamed groups of nomads said to inhabit the Shaar that you could riff off of if you found Selune wasn't your thing.

I strongly believe that's what the setting creators were going for when they made the Gurs. When someone says "gypsy" we can all imagine an old crone hunched over a crystal ball foretelling futures. As followers of Selune, this fits with them. It's even said that among them are "soothsayers and diviners." They travel from town to town and peddle trinkets too. Clearly what they were intended to represent in FR.

Not Ghostwise. They are very seclusive and basically just live in their forest (Luirwood or something?). Lightfoots, the vanilly hin race, are travellers. But yeah, the Gurs are the closest equivalent.

ghostwise are nomadic though they rarely ever leave Chondalwood just like wild-elves... they don't have permanent settlements there hence the nomadic part *but they can of course leave... im guilty of this since I play both a ghostwise and a wild-elf*

Gah, wasn't sure if this belonged here or in the Build thread. Here goes!

For a character that would want to brew poisons and acids, what jobs would be best? I'm not concerned with the char getting the ingredients on their own, just with being competent with the process. I figured that Alchemist would make the most sense for acids. For poisons, though, I'm thinking Herbalist? Surely the two could work in tandem on both, even, and I wouldn't think Alchemist to be able to take care of both. Pretty much considering level 2 in each, but just wanted to get some opinions on what art would be the most beneficial.

At first I thought 'Find out IG' but ... I'm just trying to figure from the descrips which would make more sense.

Those jobs would be best. Anatomist would have a tiny little bit of synergy with them in giving you a bit of insight into how poisons/acids affect a living creature, but otherwise, yeah, you're on the right track.

I'd say both could dabble in either. A herbalist could easily be seen as the alchemist of the natural world.

An alchemist might create an acid through distilling a Stag Beetle's stomach. A herbalist might do it by harvesting a naturally acidic plant (say, citrus) and concentrating it. Both jobs can come into contact with poisonous plants and animals, so that could be the same also.

The only major difference in RP I see is that a herbalist is going to obtain most of his raw resources from the wilderness and flora. An alchemist however likely has to be okay with the prospect of picking the wings off a dead faerie or digging about in an Ettercap's orifices for its silk gland. The latter doesn't seem to be as attractive to a squeamish PC as the relatively tame activities of a herbalist might.

Excellent! Thank you both.

I kinda had the same line of though, DI, but didn't put too much thought into it. He's not squeamish at all, anyways :3

I'll likely go with at least Alchemist 2 Herbalist 1... probably 2 each. I don't think Alchemist 3 is warranted based on the char.

Ghostwise are the most "un-gypsy" of all the Hin subraces, actually. Lightfoots and Stronghearts can be very gypsy-like though. More so the Lightfoots. Keep in mind that the word gypsy is used broadly though. Gypsy = traveler. They're commonly used interchangeably.

If you're looking for true Gypsy, yeah, the Gur are by far the closest and really the only ones worth mention.

I would like to semi-specifically direct this towards any of the DMs (sorry this is the only place I could figure to put it that wouldn't be asinine):

Because Bioware gave us the ability to metagame the alignments of level 20 Monks via glowing eyes, and from everything I have read PnP doesn't do that sort of silly thing, can that eye thing be controlled? As in, can we safely assume a Monk can has sufficient control over their ki to make it so they can 'turn off' that 'ki explusion'? It seems a bit silly that a Monk cannot do so, since they are supposed to be masters of their own body and ki.

So can a player stipulate that their level 20+ Monk is not displaying their glowy eyes? Or are you stuck with them?

Unfortunately, I think the monk glowy eyes are hardcoded. So they can't actually be turned off. On the other hand, it's a completely Bioware thing. While I'm a fan of WYSIWYG, it makes little sense to me for a monk to be unable to supress it. Don't consider that a ruling though, at least until several more DMs chime in on it.

I don't think that's going to work. You can't tell everyone you meet the eyes aren't really there. It's going to come up eventually.

Yah, I was bummed when I first found out you can't change them. Blergh on Bioware haha.

That's kinda what I was thinking, Sune. Just sucks cause if you are Good spying on Evil it's like having a neon sign go 'Hey! Hey! HEEEEEEEEEEY! LOOK AT ME I'M A GOODIE-TWO-SHOES' lol

(By the way, 'goodie two shoes'? Did bad guys used to only wear one shoe?)

Why not just stop at 16 monk then?

Because 20 Monk is infinitely cool XD
Plus, the mind benefits and such ya know.

But yeah, that's what my one char is already going to do lol

Maybe a monk20 could encourage others to interpret IC her/his glowy eyes as some sort of palpable aura of serenity and spiritual equilibrium, or some other such Mary Sue puffery? I guess my advice would be, put something like that into your character's bio, and hope people read it and react like you prefer, but try to keep cool about it if they don't.

Anyone know of any Artificer-type classes out there?

I know there's one in Magic of Faerun, Gnomish Artificer I think, but that one doesn't quite fit what I'm looking for.

My monk would explain her eyes away as some holy thing that I won't say here and it always kept her out of trouble.

Glim wrote:

Anyone know of any Artificer-type classes out there?

I know there's one in Magic of Faerun, Gnomish Artificer I think, but that one doesn't quite fit what I'm looking for.

There's an Artificer class in the main Eberron book. It's kind of wonky mechanically, but the flavor is pretty much right on.

Lizzie wrote:

Glim wrote:

Anyone know of any Artificer-type classes out there?

I know there's one in Magic of Faerun, Gnomish Artificer I think, but that one doesn't quite fit what I'm looking for.

There's an Artificer class in the main Eberron book. It's kind of wonky mechanically, but the flavor is pretty much right on.

Thanks Lizzie, I'll look for it.

Technically when a monk gets 20 levels they become an outsider (native), which is why they have glowy eyes

Halecta wrote:

Technically when a monk gets 20 levels they become an outsider (native), which is why they have glowy eyes

True, but that's still a pretty weak reasoning for it. Cause still, it's a ki thing and a monk of that level should be able to control it. I just think Bioware made it for singleplayer and never too multiplayer into consideration XD

There are plenty of outsiders that don't have glowing eyes. It's just for flavor.

Personally, I would have preferred something subtler like a halo representing enlightenment or something. Glowy eyes don't mean much now because people are used to seeing monks derping around with them all the time.>_>

Haha yeah, it's just the annoying bit of "Oh, hey, red means evil so you must be evil. SMITE" or whetever lol

Last edited by dayfer on Sun, Feb 05 2012, 21:13 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Nevermind!

Was there a change in the last few years for Amia regarding polymorphs?

Lore wise (and I know a few years back on Amia too) the rule was that the spell true seeing can see through the polymorph spell.

I am curious if that was changed recently to WYSIWYG. If so then it might be worth to mention it under the Spell changes on the Amia forum.

Far as I know TS still sees through polymorph/shapechange. It doesn't see through shifter forms though.

That was my last info too. But admittedly my last info was from 3 years ago when I got a polymorph custom shape. So it -may- be out of date and I'd rather be sure.

Gers wrote:

Far as I know TS still sees through polymorph/shapechange. It doesn't see through shifter forms though.

Khylaria wrote:

Gers wrote:

Far as I know TS still sees through polymorph/shapechange. It doesn't see through shifter forms though.

i have a question about rashemi.

are their accents heavy russian or light?

ive known russians that carry heavy Ls and rolling Rs but ive also met some that their Ws sound like Vs and their TH at the beginning of worrds had a Z sound like the german accent. Are rashemi accents like that?

Having read extensively on the subject of the Rashemi their accent is never ever brought up in the sourcebooks at least not in specific terms. So you're pretty free to give them whatever accent you like.

But if you need something to go off, Minsc from Baldur's Gate appears to have a more generic fake Russian accent than the kinds you describe, so I guess it's sort of light. I think NWN2 or its expansion was set in Rashemen but I never played it so I can't say how they spoke.

serbiris wrote:

Having read extensively on the subject of the Rashemi their accent is never ever brought up in the sourcebooks at least not in specific terms. So you're pretty free to give them whatever accent you like.

But if you need something to go off, Minsc from Baldur's Gate appears to have a more generic fake Russian accent than the kinds you describe, so I guess it's sort of light. I think NWN2 or its expansion was set in Rashemen but I never played it so I can't say how they spoke.

awesome answer! thanks a bunch.

TormakSaber wrote:

Khylaria wrote:

Gers wrote:

Far as I know TS still sees through polymorph/shapechange. It doesn't see through shifter forms though.

This and also not through Druid shifting forms either.

Not arguing, just curious: Why? In what way is druid/shifter shapechangeyness different enough from "regular" shapechangeyness that it interacts differently with Truesight?

Because once one becomes a shifter, "shifter" is their true form. Whatever a shifter shifts into is their true form from then on, whatever they happen to be at the time.

Gunz wrote:

also not through Druid shifting forms either.

I would argue against regular druid shifting forms, citing what I just wrote, unless it's been otherwise specified by the DM team in the past. A druid's true form doesn't change, just because they learn how to shapechange, in my opinion.

Other DMs can correct me if I'm wrong.

I always understood it ruled now as Player cast True seeing is not "Real True Seeing" So it does not see passed the Polymorph/Shapechange. The Player True Seeing is just like and Enhanced vision spell.

I was in favor of that because there is no way to actually make people unshift or anything from a person with True seeing on. So the dragon there is really a hin, Mechanically its still a dragon and nothing we can do to make it unshift via the counter spell.

Since we are so big on WYSIWYG. Your Spell doesn't function as it did in other worlds. Just like a large number of our other spells. Just my take on it to try and keep it as simple as possible.

Last edited by Moth on Tue, Feb 07 2012, 4:01 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Not sure if there's a different policy on Amia, but in PnP a Shifter gets Evershifting Form at level 10, which changes their racial type to 'Shapechanger'.

I think if you're going to have True Seeing expose any polymorph it should require more than just, "I cast spell". Some degree of discussion on both sides and consent from the polymorphed party, as well as decent roleplay involving a period of intense, slightly creepy staring should be absolutely necessary.

It's also hard to tell from the polymorphed player side if the person really does have TS on or not... Since See Invis and Ultravision has the same graphic as TS... I can definitely see OOC argument come about that way.

Yes, and my take on it removes all the "Shifters are okay nothing else." "Only when shifters are lvl 10+" "My TS sees your real form *Persons uses name is above the shape* Unshift"

If the DM wants TS to see through a shapechange for an event then those times it does -if- the DM says yes.

I feel that's the best way to just go about it with minimal required knowledge and shortest answer to someone that doesn't know.

It's really easy to solve: Polymorph, shapeshifting, Shapechange...those are all transmutations. Disguise Self, etc. are illusions. True Seeing will look through an Illusory disguise, not a Transmuted one.

The PnP True Seeing says it sees through polymorphs, however. Yet I really don't understand why TS should. Illusions, yes, divination trumps illusion. But transmutation is all about actually changing yourself. You don't put on the guise of a dragon. You turn into one. Your physiological structure shifts and contorts into one. What are you supposed to "see" when you look at someone polymorphed? I heard long ago the amian thing was you see a person suspended in the midst of a greyish dragon form.

But... that just doesn't make sense. There is no person hanging in the middle... the person is the dragon. Better question is what do you see when someone transforms into a creature smaller than their humanoid form? A human standing on top of a cat? A small miniature version of the person inside of a fey's body? It just doesn't make sense for divination to be showing you something when there really isn't anything there. It's all about revealing the truth, yet it's lying to you to do so.

My only though is the Greenwood wanted a way Elminster and other powerful mages could metagame someone trying to spy on them in an otherwise inconspicuous form.

That is exactly how I felt and what I even mentioned on a MSN talk. TS doesn't break Transmutation. And exactly... I turn to a fey to fit through a hole. Oh Shit someone had TS on... Do they see me looking like a deformed idiot squeezing through a hole the size of my foot? Can I suddenly not do it? Could I ever do it in the first place? O.O

Easier to just say here TS doesn't reveal a polymorphs, shapechanges, etc. Just like here TS doesn't auto spot hidden PCs, NPCs, or traps.

We're talking about actual literal shapeshifting. Do you know the number of levels upon which that doesn't make sense? "It's magic" is a lazy excuse for TS to work but that's what we're doing when we accept polymorph without considering (or simply ignoring) how badly physics and reality is being screwed over for our gaming convenience.

In case it wasn't clear, I'm talking about things like: If I eat something while polymorphed and then change back, do bits of person explode out of me? If I inhale really deeply just before changing back, do I explode? If I'm pregnant etc etc... so I don't know why we can't rationalize that by some obscure twist of magic that I'm sure can be justified somehow, TS just works despite polymorph being transmutation because that's what it says in the book.

On the other hand policing this rule is probably just an annoying pain so I would hold it against no one if they decided not to bother and just say TS works differently on Amia.

I kind of agree with both Khy and Mahtan... I'd like Khy's explanation a lot more if WYSIWYG wasn't such a big thing 'round these here parts. If True Sight lets someone "See" things as they "Truly" are, then it would make sense that someone polymorphed into a shape that's not their natural shape would register as wearing a "false" shape, while a shifter, who has no actual "True" shape, wouldn't register in such a way regardless of what shape she happened to be wearing at any given moment. But I can see how in the NWN environment, that would cause a need for a lot of clumsy OOC adjudication. If someone sends me an OOC /tell saying they're Truesighted and asking me what means my character has used to shift forms, am I obligated to answer?

Mahtan Tasadur wrote:

That is exactly how I felt and what I even mentioned on a MSN talk. TS doesn't break Transmutation. And exactly... I turn to a fey to fit through a hole. Oh Shit someone had TS on... Do they see me looking like a deformed idiot squeezing through a hole the size of my foot? Can I suddenly not do it? Could I ever do it in the first place? O.O

Easier to just say here TS doesn't reveal a polymorphs, shapechanges, etc. Just like here TS doesn't auto spot hidden PCs, NPCs, or traps.

Thats a far to literal explanation.

True Seeing reveals the trueform of the creature you are viewing, because Polymorphs, Shapechanges etc are temporary things. As I've always RP'ed it, True Seeing superimposes the true and original form of the one that changed giving a current to underlying magic. What true seeing allows my character to do is see your characters true form in my characters minds eye.

Also Mahtans assertion is totally wrong because True, True seeing still exists via numerous readily available methods. Pseudodragon, Dragonshape etc.

Our version of true seeing was changed because we wanted it to not be able to detect stealthed or hidden creatures automatically, it had absolutely nothing to do with piercing illusions/shapechanges. The reason I'm personally admant about it, is because it kicks the balls out of Shifters who are so very cool in being the form that they are now. I'm also leery about Druids but since Wildshape and Druid Shapechanging are supernatural abilities rather than magical abilities I'd probably rule that they fall into the same category as Shifters.

MoshingChris wrote:

Also Mahtans assertion is totally wrong because True, True seeing still exists via numerous readily available methods. Pseudodragon, Dragonshape etc.

Dragons dont have True True Seeing, Mosh. Umberhulks, dragons have things called Tremor Sense/Blindsense/Blindsight, which only lets you discern the location of the creature and makes hiding and things void. It doesn't tell whether or not if you're actually a troll or a polymorphed troll.

Unless this is yet another Amian thing...

I'm well aware of why it was changed. I am saying with limitations of this game we can not properly show for it functioning as real true seeing. So for me I just don't go by it. My true seeing is fancy see invis. I will not ask a red dragon, are you a shifter with dragon shape? Or just a shapechange spell?

I will just be Oh someone turned into or summoned a dragon. As sometimes I have no clue what the person looks like any way. I walk around with TS all the time for the spot bonus mostly and I never consider myself able to see all things true.

My take on it is to keep it simple, friendly to what the game can actually do, and easy to just say TS functions a bit differently here.

In all my time here I have actually never even seen someone pull a *ts is up, I see your true form* I have seen a willing person PM saying what I see. But good luck enforcing that and in a timely manner for every time a polymorphed pc notices some use TS.

Seems though my take on it is the least favorable among the DMs that posted so I'll bite if needed. As I said an issue only rarely ever comes with this in my experience.

Khylaria wrote:

Because once one becomes a shifter, "shifter" is their true form. Whatever a shifter shifts into is their true form from then on, whatever they happen to be at the time.

Gunz wrote:

also not through Druid shifting forms either.

I would argue against regular druid shifting forms, citing what I just wrote, unless it's been otherwise specified by the DM team in the past. A druid's true form doesn't change, just because they learn how to shapechange, in my opinion.

Other DMs can correct me if I'm wrong.

Druids do change their form fully, this is not a spell. Hence why it cannot be disspelled etc. either.

The exception is the level 9 shapechange spell.

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