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Ulir
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 Posted: Sun, Apr 29 2012, 23:24 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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23 wiz/7 cleric, or 23 wiz/6 cleric/1 rogue comes to mind. You will be rather strong as a wizard, while having access to some beneficial low level cleric spells such as Bless, Entropic Shield, Darkness, Find Traps, Lesser Resoration, Silence, Remove Paralysis, Invisibility Purge, Negative Energy Protection, Protection From Elements (lasts 24 hours) and the melee buffs.
The latter build would probably be the best. Pick up an elven spellsword plate, extend the spells you need and become a grand buffer and saviour. Hell, you are wizard mainly, so pick up power attack and divine shield to gain +6 ac in dire moments. Would be awesome. Get EMA, EMD and you are good.
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Ulir
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Posted: Sun, Apr 29 2012, 23:26 PM |
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Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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Yes, two rogue levels gives you evasion, but you can do without it. Just make sure your reflex saves are good and you will be fine.
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Aeqvinox
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Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 12:18 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Location: Underdark
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Someone told me that Bard levels don't count towards CL in regards to Pale Master summoning spells.
That be true?
_________________
Mark it zero!
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IronAngel
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Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 12:21 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Yes. It says so on the Summons sidebar, in the prolegomenon of the Undead chapter.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Aeqvinox
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Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 12:24 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Location: Underdark
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Ah, indeed it does. That's kinda sad.
Any clue on why bards are being discriminated as summoners? Is that supposed to be a balance thing?
_________________
Mark it zero!
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IronAngel
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Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 12:37 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Lorewise, bards do not excel at necromancy. They get no spells to animate dead or even command undead, not in NWN and probably not in PnP (might be a command spell there, not sure). And yes, balance-wise you're choosing to focus on melee and get the boons of 3/4 AB, higher health, Tumble etc. instead of mastery over the arcane rituals of undeath when you pick Bard. The synergy of 20/10 Bard/PM would be a little too good and there'd be no reason to go Wizard or Sorcerer if you got the best summons with that Lasting Inspiration, 30 Tumble, buffs up your ass and more AC than you knew what to do with.
Can't say I know all the reasons, but that's what comes to mind.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Bobo_Underhill
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Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 18:28 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Location: The Drone Star State
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Bards aren't really... able to pure cast. They're dabblers. They know a bit of magic, which is mostly focused around buffs and some enchantments. Basically, things that help them do better at making up for their 3/4ths BAB progression. Sure, they can charisma focus, but they're still not casters.
_________________
Andrew Fryar: Cordor's Folk Hero
Bobrin: Eccentric Avenging Executioner
Lyle Torrowfire: Retired badass
Marigold Cobcruncher: Perceptive Priestess
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Ulir
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Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 20:52 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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Pssst, someone should make a dirgesinger. Bard 25/DC (or ftr) 4/PM 1.
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Bini
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Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 20:59 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 Mar 2011
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Why 25 bard? Seems it would do best as 23 bard, 6 fighter, 1 palemaster...
_________________ feel the blood gushing from your anusONE feel the blood gushing from your anus
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 21:04 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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No, 25 bard. It''s when AC hits 6.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Bini
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Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 21:11 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 Mar 2011
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4 Damage is worth 1 dodge class AC any day of the week... Thinking on it absolutely optimized though, 20 bard, 4 palemaster, 6 fighter sounds rockin'. Even if it is lame fluff.
_________________ feel the blood gushing from your anusONE feel the blood gushing from your anus
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PaladinOfSune
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Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 21:39 PM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: England, UK
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23 Bard/6 Fighter/1 Ranger. duh.
_________________  "Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."
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Ulir
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Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 22:00 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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Bini wrote: 4 Damage is worth 1 dodge class AC any day of the week... Thinking on it absolutely optimized though, 20 bard, 4 palemaster, 6 fighter sounds rockin'. Even if it is lame fluff. It is actually +1 ab (curse song) and ac, not to mention the hp and skill buff. Your spells also last longer and are harder to dispel. A more safe version. Losing your precious haste, imp. invisibility, war cry, wounding whispers and ability buffs in a single greater dispel or whatever comes your way is nasty. _________________
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Mon, Apr 30 2012, 22:28 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Bini wrote: 4 Damage is worth 1 dodge class AC any day of the week... Thinking on it absolutely optimized though, 20 bard, 4 palemaster, 6 fighter sounds rockin'. Even if it is lame fluff. You still get the epic spec on 4 fighter... you jsust do it in epic. 4 attacks isn't a big deal when your 4th is at -15.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Tue, May 01 2012, 3:07 AM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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Short question:
Given the choice between +6 dmg (Epic Weapon Spec) and +2 AB (16 WM), which is better?
This is a slight revisitation on the male drow Fighter/KC/WM idea I had.
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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PaladinOfSune
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Posted: Tue, May 01 2012, 3:09 AM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: England, UK
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16 WM doesn't work very well on a drow.
_________________ "Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Tue, May 01 2012, 3:11 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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PaladinOfSune wrote: Wood Elf: 23 Bard/6 Fighter/1 Ranger. duh.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Tue, May 01 2012, 4:00 AM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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PaladinOfSune wrote: 16 WM doesn't work very well on a drow. Yeah I know, ends up being 7 Fighter/5 KC/16 WM. That +2 ECL hurts. I'm guessing that's what you mean?
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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PaladinOfSune
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Posted: Tue, May 01 2012, 4:01 AM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: England, UK
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16 Fighter/5 KC/7 WM is way better, yeah.
_________________ "Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Tue, May 01 2012, 6:14 AM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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PaladinOfSune wrote: 16 Fighter/5 KC/7 WM is way better, yeah. Oh, crap, that's right. I forgot IKD was taken out of the new one, too. For some reason I thought I still had it in there haha. Now, I wonder, for a +1 ECL race would 8/5/16 work just fine? Probably so, eh?
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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Ulir
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Posted: Tue, May 01 2012, 17:09 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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Aye, it would.
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Ulir
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Posted: Tue, May 01 2012, 17:10 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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Sliiiightly pressed for feats, but it is doable.
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Jyro X
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Posted: Wed, May 02 2012, 13:02 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Location: North Carolina (EST/GMT -5)
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I'm trying to remember my last level for Marister. Before he did his golem crafting and had a level sap, I know I had his build fleshed out. I just can't remember what his final level was and I don't want to effectively gimp him due to my having limited knowledge of mechanics after such a long break.
He is currently 26 wizard, 2 fighter, 1 rogue. I think his last level was going to be another level of wizard but I can't remember. Any help?
_________________  
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IronAngel
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Posted: Wed, May 02 2012, 13:22 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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IronAngel wrote: By the way: is it a secret what the Mummy Dust summons for Magical Beast and Outsider are? I seem to have picked Epic Conjuration for Joon, apparently planning for EDK. Now that Mummy Dust has more options, though, it might be more fitting. He's LN and I was hoping for a Sphinx or something associated with knowledge somehow. Do I just take a chance? IronAngel wrote: Not sure what I was doing with Kalliniel. He's a Dex-based melee bard/ftr, the bladesinger type.
I'm currently 23/5 Bard/Ftr. Was I going 25/5 for +1 AC/-1 AC on Bard/Curse Song, or 24/6 for one more feat?
I got Lasting Inspiration, ESF: Perform, EWF: Rapier and EWS: Rapier so far. Do I go 6 Fighter for Armor Skin and Epic Prowess, or just settle with Armor Skin? _________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Uncle-Opustus
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Posted: Wed, May 02 2012, 13:54 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Finland
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I already answered you for the bottom one, and no, it's not a secret. Magical beast is some random cat-like creature whose name I can't remember. Outsider is an elemental. I think the beast would suit your needs better.
Anyway, so you don't have to scroll down, Armor Skin is enough. That 25th Bard level is way more precious and Epic Prowess is fairly meh in the end.
_________________  UCE THIS, YOU COW.
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Ulir
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Posted: Wed, May 02 2012, 14:48 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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Jyro X wrote: I'm trying to remember my last level for Marister. Before he did his golem crafting and had a level sap, I know I had his build fleshed out. I just can't remember what his final level was and I don't want to effectively gimp him due to my having limited knowledge of mechanics after such a long break.
He is currently 26 wizard, 2 fighter, 1 rogue. I think his last level was going to be another level of wizard but I can't remember. Any help? Well, 27 wiz or 2 rogue. You already threw points in disc, tumble and UMD, right? _________________
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IronAngel
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Posted: Wed, May 02 2012, 14:59 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Oh yeah, sorry and thanks Opustus. You apparently posted while I was replying to Svensk, so I missed it.
Yeah, probably gonna go either EDK and get it reskinned to Brass Dragon, or pick up EMD: Magical Beast and request a Sphinx. I guess the usefulness of the two feats is pretty comparable? Dragon being somewhat stronger but more situational?
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Wed, May 02 2012, 15:05 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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Replying to me? Wat? 
_________________
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Jyro X
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Posted: Wed, May 02 2012, 15:13 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Location: North Carolina (EST/GMT -5)
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Ulir wrote: Jyro X wrote: I'm trying to remember my last level for Marister. Before he did his golem crafting and had a level sap, I know I had his build fleshed out. I just can't remember what his final level was and I don't want to effectively gimp him due to my having limited knowledge of mechanics after such a long break.
He is currently 26 wizard, 2 fighter, 1 rogue. I think his last level was going to be another level of wizard but I can't remember. Any help? Well, 27 wiz or 2 rogue. You already threw points in disc, tumble and UMD, right? Yes. _________________
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Ulir
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Posted: Wed, May 02 2012, 15:21 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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Then it is up to you, really. Rogue gives you evasion (not necessary, really), and an extra wiz level makes your spells stronger, last longer, your spells are harder to dispel etc. and your Gate spell suddenly becomes top notch! Your call, really. I would go with 27 wiz for sure, just because I am a huge fan of the Gate spell (for neutral and evil). _________________
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Wed, May 02 2012, 16:21 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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Ulir wrote: Then it is up to you, really. Rogue gives you evasion (not necessary, really), and an extra wiz level makes your spells stronger, last longer, your spells are harder to dispel etc. and your Gate spell suddenly becomes top notch! Your call, really. I would go with 27 wiz for sure, just because I am a huge fan of the Gate spell (for neutral and evil). Is it really that awesome?
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Innuendo
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Posted: Wed, May 02 2012, 16:45 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Jan 2012
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27th level Gate is pretty good, yeah. I'd only appreciate it if you can afford multiple castings. The duration leaves something to be desired, of course. It's a worthy investment on sorcerers, at least.
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Wed, May 02 2012, 17:38 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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SoV is better that Gate 27 on all fronts. Then again its undead so it comes with the stigma of any paladin sticking a sword in you.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Ulir
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Posted: Wed, May 02 2012, 17:50 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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SoV? He is a wizard. And yeah, the level 27 gate spell is awesome. I get the feeling that the evil summons are more powerful in direct combat than the slaad, but slaad are just so freaking awesome you can't say no to it, even though the damage is bordering to being pitiful. The stats and such -should- make up for it though. I didn't mention the good Gate summon, because it looks silly. But that is just me.
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Wed, May 02 2012, 18:26 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Shadow of the Void. Shades.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Ulir
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Posted: Wed, May 02 2012, 18:38 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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Gate summon will maul SotV. Admittedly, Shades is a lower spell level, but for the time you have the level 27 Gate spell, you are very strong. Shades is doing good for its level, but not really comparable in the end. The NE/CE Gate summon (Balor) is terribly strong, due to having a weapon you can buff.
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Wed, May 02 2012, 18:53 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Ok dude, you know I just balance the critters and all.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Ulir
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Posted: Wed, May 02 2012, 19:28 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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Yes? It was regarding Jyro X's choices of either rogue or wizard level to begin with. Just saying that the Gate spell is worth it when the need arises, and that 27 wiz would be better for him than another level of rogue and evasion. Not sure why you mentioned SotV in the first place.
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Wed, May 02 2012, 19:37 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Because I don't know Jyro's character, I'm just saying that 27 Wizard probably isn't that great if your only going for Gate, if you have an epic summon already or if SotV is an option for you. Also not to given anything away but all those summons are changing. You may have noticed that the Good/NE Gate/Planar have been changed.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Wed, May 02 2012, 19:48 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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Did some testing on my 30 wiz and realised that mummy dust beats em all by a mile being a long duration and all.
Shadow of the void rocks vs easy to hit targets with high up. But Its so darn easy to kill... No ac or Hp.
Id say the summons are best in this order.
1# construct EMD
2# Gate goodaalignment.
3# Sirrush
4# gate neutral evil
5# gate chaotic evil
6# gate lawful
7# SoV
8# circle 9 neutral summon VII
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Wed, May 02 2012, 19:49 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Just noticed SotV is missing some stuff hence the low AC I believe.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Ulir
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Posted: Wed, May 02 2012, 20:02 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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MoshingChris wrote: Because I don't know Jyro's character, I'm just saying that 27 Wizard probably isn't that great if your only going for Gate, if you have an epic summon already or if SotV is an option for you. Also not to given anything away but all those summons are changing. You may have noticed that the Good/NE Gate/Planar have been changed. Alright. I see now. Well, I actually don't have any character with focus in Gate spells, although I like the idea, so I haven't seen any changes regarding that. Probably better for a cleric since they can extend it (or should with the right domain?). The NE/CE Gate was pretty damn strong with four APR, weapon and high ab. I assume it was nerfed, eh? _________________
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Ulir
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Posted: Wed, May 02 2012, 20:11 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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Very_Svensk wrote: Did some testing on my 30 wiz and realised that mummy dust beats em all by a mile being a long duration and all.
Shadow of the void rocks vs easy to hit targets with high up. But Its so darn easy to kill... No ac or Hp.
Id say the summons are best in this order.
1# construct EMD
2# Gate goodaalignment.
3# Sirrush
4# gate neutral evil
5# gate chaotic evil
6# gate lawful
7# SoV
8# circle 9 neutral summon VII How did you come to the conclusion about the neutral aligned Gate being better than NE/CE? Sure the stats are all in the 30 or 40's, but the damage output is rather low. Then again, all summons are good in different scenarios, although all the Gate spells seem to be melee focused and should be equal, at least somewhat equal. I'd gladly pick the slaad over any other because it is so amazingly froglike!  I love it. Probably my favorite monster in D&D. Preeeeetty sure that NE AND CE is a Balor, unless something changed that I didn't notice. My NE cleric used to be able to summon a Balor via Gate spell. Just saying. _________________
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Wed, May 02 2012, 20:11 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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The longer it survives, the more use of it i have. I have no use for a summon that dies after one pack of mobs, No?
If a summon does 50 Damage ten times.
and if a summon does 10 damage 1000 times.
Which one is doing the most damage output?
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Wed, May 02 2012, 20:14 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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Paladin
Your paladin have 1 feat un-used in his pre-epic featlist. Which feat would you put in there?
Feats #1-3 = Imp.Crit, Blind fight, Wep.Foc
#4-7 = Power attack, Divine shield, Divine might
#8 = ???
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Ulir
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Posted: Wed, May 02 2012, 20:20 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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Well, yes. But what does that have to do with what I asked you?  Are you saying that the slaad dies a lot faster than the balor? I would believe that the slaad has much higher AC compared to the balor, since slaadi usually have high dex etc. The Gate summon is strong because the duration is lacking I would guess. _________________
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Bobo_Underhill
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Posted: Wed, May 02 2012, 20:20 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Location: The Drone Star State
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What kind of paladin?
_________________
Andrew Fryar: Cordor's Folk Hero
Bobrin: Eccentric Avenging Executioner
Lyle Torrowfire: Retired badass
Marigold Cobcruncher: Perceptive Priestess
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Wed, May 02 2012, 20:25 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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Bobo_Underhill wrote: What kind of paladin? Doesn't matter. What do you think fits a paladin as a random feat?
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Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856
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ILoveIceCream
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Posted: Wed, May 02 2012, 20:31 PM |
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Player
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Location: California
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you don't need great fort since you have amazing saves as a pally. Exotic weapon prof and use a katana would be different than a lot of pally builds out there. I'm not sure what you could plug that last feat with. if it's a smiter, extra smite maybe. Or extra turning if you feel you'll be lacking on the turns needed for divine might/shield
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Pony
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Posted: Wed, May 02 2012, 20:33 PM |
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Player
Joined: 07 May 2005
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Knockdown aint a bad choice. Can no longer get it on items.
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